Medjai said:This is a Very old post but I will ad my 2 cents.
NO. They had mentoring in EQ2 and it was terrible. Yes the game artificially down-levels you so you to "the same level" but since the gear is SO much better on the lev 50 that grouping with the lev 4, he just trivializes content and make all that hard work put in the game to make things challenging at lev X, completely nullified.
And, on the flip side. If they make it where the lev 50 raid gear is so dumbed down, that the lev 50 is just as weak at the lev 4 ( actually its impossible for the game to do that correctly ) that means, gear will be valueless because twinking your lev 5 alt with some good items that are hand me downs. is negated by the game.
I hate the idea. I will never change my mind no matter what. Make an alt if you have a max lev character and want to group with your level 10 friend.
I have no idea how most people play, but I will have a main that will get max level. I don't care how long it takes. I will get there.
But, I don't like playing JUST ONE CLASS every single time I log in. My main will be a Cleric or maybe an Chanter, but I will also make Alts : ranger, druid, wizard, summoner.
So by the time I am max lev on my cleric, I will likely have a alts spread out all over the level spectrum. a 10 ranger, a 15 wizard, a 5 summoner etc,
I can grab one of those to group with my friends that don't level as fast as I do. Mentoring systems make MMO games suck.
This game will pull SOOOOOO many EQ1 players, EQ2 players, (since EQ Next is dead) Vaguard players, and many from a host of other games. You will never have a hard time finding a group at any level.
I have a lev 15 Cleric on EQ1 phinigel server RIGHT now, and I have found a group every single time I have logged in to play. There is no mentoring there.
I also have a lev 8 wizard, got a group at lev 4 and went to lev 8 just a couple of nights ago.
Groups are not going to be a problem. There are hundreds of people who do the same thing I do, and play many different characers and will likely have something near enough to any level range to group with.
Heck, if you are in my guild and you got to lev 5 and couldn't log in for a few months and came back. I will Make a toon to run with you. I am going to have 1 of every single class in the game before I am done makng characters .
EQ set groups up where you could group with anyone 1.5 X your level. so a 10 can group with a 15. a lev 20 can group with a 30. a 30 can group with a 45 etc.
There is No need for mentoring in my book. Everyone is entitled to Their opinion. Nothing anyone says will ever change My mind. Want what you want. I don't want it.
next bit could get confusing, i think it makes sense... writing it in a flurry at work lol
I mentioned on this thread or another one something that is in line with what your saying, I dont think anyone touched on it, so probably not very popular, I completely agree with the thought that the OP nature of mentoring needs to be attended to and changed before mentoring is allowed. I would actually like to see (and this may not be recieved well by some) that if a player mentors down to a specific level there are mentored stats/mana/hp are locked into a pre decided amount no matter the gear, the stat/mana/hp etc is for each level and also based on the class type that is mentoring (wiz +str and hp's will be dif to warrior etc). The mentored stats/mana/hp should be designed to have the characters power brought down to a stat/mana/hp level that is slightly less than the average of non mentored character at the same level with average gear. This is for 2 reasons...
1. So the mentored player is not OP
2. So people would actively search for a player at a suitable level for their group instead of actively looking for a high level mentor. OR alternatively being happy to say thanks to the lvl 50 who has been helping out but we just found a lvl 15 who is lfg and there would be some advantages in using them.
I think this would play well into the concept of inclusion instead of exclusion with players coming up in the world as lower lvls and not having the best gear.
Of course you cant replace a players experience in situations and this would usually play into the hands of the high level player who has had lots of experience but stats and gear wise the advantage would be to the lower lvl character (unless he/she was mostly naked lol)
Thoughts?
Kilsin said:Just to be clear, Mentoring makes a higher level player drop to the level to of the lower level player, you can never raise your level using this system, period.
Example:
Level 6 Shaman new to the game, no guild, needs help with a frustrating quest or to travel past a dangerous area.
Level 40 Warrior answers the call and offers to help.
Level 6 sends a Mentor offer.
Level 40 accepts the offer and is reduced to level 6.
Both players are now level 6 and can duo together in a level appropriate area, all stats and buffs on the level 40 will reduce to level appropriate numbers.
This not only keep players interested, socializing and working together but it is great for community spirit and removes the barriers between friends, family and new players allowing everyone to play together no matter what their level.
I really like this system but my situation is probably different than others. I only like to play 1 character. Over a long period of time, I may eventually get an alt or 2 up. My family and friends on the other hand like to level alts all the time. With my work schedule, this allows me to play with them when I can, even if they are on alts and not their main toon. I don't need extra additions for mentoring down like xp or aa etc, I just don't want to hurt their xp by not being able to mentor down.
Alexander said: So the RP thing could be like the mentor is purposefully holding himself back in order to truly help the "student" learn... I need this sort of thinking to make sense of dazzling armor struggling against a level 5 gorilla. Works though, I'm cool with that! Will be nice to group with people that way. Any word on how xp will be handled for the mentor?
There is no guarantee that we will use this system, I was just explaining that it is a good one to consider if we do go down this path, as it worked very well in VG. Experience gain is equivalent to that of the level that you mentor down to.
Example:
Level 6 and mentored level 6 (normally level 40) kill a wolf and both receive 10 exp (for arguments sake a made up number) which is level appropriate experience for that mob, the level 40 does not get any extra or miss out,t hey both get whatever the level 6 mobs drop and whatever experience values they are worth, so everything is fair and there cannot be any power leveling etc.
My problem still remains. If I am lev 50 and have a Cloak of Flames, I get down leveled to 5 to group with the lev 5 guy needing a group. We group. great.
How does this effect a Cloak of Flames if I want to give it to my lev 5 warrior? instead of being an AWESOME piece of gear, it gets downleveled to lev 5 as well?
I lose my 36% haste on that item since its on a lev 5? If not, a lev 5 twinked would be better than a lev 50 down leveled.
If my Cloak of Flames is down leveled to 5 and gets .5% haste instead of 36% haste, then you just ruined the value of that item and made it useless to anyone but the level appropriate person.
And THAT SUCKS. Just making up numbers here. Cloak of Flames on EQ is worth 50,000 plat. On Pantheon, since it gets completely gimped BECAUSE OF MENTORING, it worth 5K .....
Twinking is a blast and makes Good Tradable items HOLD VALUE. Mentoring Takes ALL that value away....
Nothing can change my mind on this subject. I Loved it when I got my Cloak of Flames in EQ. it was one of those items EVERYONE wanted because you could put it on a lev 1 monk and level much faster than normal. But its NOT hurting the game because I worked my rear end off to get that Cloak of Flames. And it made it where I lev 1 monk was able to solo Much longer until I found groups. I would also be able to solo Whites and Yellow cons instead of blues which made me level faster so i COULD catch up to group with others. This also does NOT hurt the game because obviously, if I have a character high enough level to have a cloak of flames, I have already seen the low end content. I am not missing out on anything.
Who wants a lev 5 monk with a cloak of Flames and 2 Wu Trance sticks etc that is no better than a lev 5 with cloth and a cracked staff. Horrible. Hate it. Ruins the game.
Twinking and mentoring can't be used together. So without twinking, it makes me very sad for this game....
Knowing that mentoring vs twinking in the game is such a big deal to me, this thread just cost Pantheon $900 in support. I was going to get the $500 pledge because I really wanted all the goodies that came with it. The cloth map being a Biggie! my brother was going to do the same. Both of use Love to twink our alts. it was one of those really fun things we enjoyed SO much in EQ. He also just said, well, never mind on that. So he isn't pledging at all now since he doesn't care about beta testing games, and if mentoring is in and twinking is out. I won't do more than the $100 because its not the game I was hoping for any more.
I really see no reason why a mentor system should NOT be in the game. Mentor System/EXP toggle serves such a greater good in increasing replayability of content and increasing the outreach of high lvl players with the lower lvl players. Again, giving the players options and not forcing them away from content is the more progressive way to approach it. Not having (in my opinion) such a modern feature I think would hurt the community down the road once the game becomes more top-heavy.
The players you grouped with and made friends then seem to outlevel you even though you were on most of the week and in chunks on weekends and then got too high?
Deal with it- that's the breaks-
contrawise- when I found a good, regular group of 5- it wasn't all at once, it maybe took a year and a half started with Me, the erudite mage and a troll shadowknight for the first 8 months.
But later much later after about 4 years- when we were all raiding age- the shadowknight decided to re-roll as a Frog warrior.
It broke up the group- one of those things. and seeing people who I met as good new friends who were ready to play and do some questing or whatever- then say- "sorry I can;t I am leveling my alt"- it was almost an insult to me, who needs an alt? there is plenty of level appropriate stuff out there and with AA's.....whatever
But, - taking into account the "deus ex ludicrum"(<- my invention) I learned, branched out, forced myself out of a comfort zone and joined a guild-less raiding alliance ( very successfull, very long term) that allowed people not in a guid or even in other guilds to be a part of the alliance and hit raid targets- sophisticated DKP and the rest.
And those years later I found new- high level groups because they...heard of me! (that was a nice boost to the confidence. I was so worried about playing my class well) heh one person commented if you started in erudin, you re-rolled.
Yeah it sucked seeing people move on- and then fade into memory while still there- but I just took that as part of the unwritten social aspect of the game and my gamer playability style.
Therefore because it is player oriented and not the game itself I dont think it appropriate to force the game through development to make allowances to the players to over come the players play style- just because they might feel alone and by extension inadequate or incapable of taking advanage of what the game offers/getting what they paid for.
Notice I did not say lack of expertise or ability- as it is more of a personal pacing thing and I dont expect the game to be forced to develop something to overcome a random personal play style by developing self driving cars.
That being said, I find it highly honorable that the game developers would develop a system in game to prevent this common player gripe and I await its roll out. To be honest I do not have a full grasp of the mechanics, but I think I understand the concept.
The two mechanics we're speaking of have so many upsides its unreal.
*Prevent XP Gain*
If a group of players want to keep their levels together so they can continue to group yet playtimes vary to where some can play more than others, the ones that play more can disable their xp gain so they won't outlevel their group and continue playing with their friends without the fear of "leaving them behind". Keeps folks playing, keeps folks playing with their friends, nothing but benefit.
*Mentoring Lower Level Players*
Say I've been playing the game for a while and have a lvl 50 warrior. In my case, my wife decides to start playing and she has a lvl 7 cleric and we want to play together. Back in the day the only way we could really "play" together is if I were to somehow powerlevel her or re-roll an entirely new character. What if I didn't want to roll a new character as I love my warrior so much and I wanted to play with my wife. This is where mentoring comes in. I can artificially de-level myself to the lvl of my wife and adventure with her on top of playing the character that I want to play. My gear and abilities will scale down in effectiveness to match or be closely related to the lvl of content (this is the part that gets tuned). So what you accomplish here is you allow any player to play with...any player. Think about those times where a mid-level group is looking for a tank and there are none around for their level yet you got some high lvl tanks sitting around wanting to help, problem solved, increased outreach.
There is no "hard lesson" to learn about this. The objective here is to get people playing, keep them playing, and give them more ways to play. Only helps the community, not harm it.
Medjai said:My problem still remains. If I am lev 50 and have a Cloak of Flames, I get down leveled to 5 to group with the lev 5 guy needing a group. We group. great.
How does this effect a Cloak of Flames if I want to give it to my lev 5 warrior? instead of being an AWESOME piece of gear, it gets downleveled to lev 5 as well?
I lose my 36% haste on that item since its on a lev 5? If not, a lev 5 twinked would be better than a lev 50 down leveled.
If my Cloak of Flames is down leveled to 5 and gets .5% haste instead of 36% haste, then you just ruined the value of that item and made it useless to anyone but the level appropriate person.
And THAT SUCKS. Just making up numbers here. Cloak of Flames on EQ is worth 50,000 plat. On Pantheon, since it gets completely gimped BECAUSE OF MENTORING, it worth 5K .....
Twinking is a blast and makes Good Tradable items HOLD VALUE. Mentoring Takes ALL that value away....
Nothing can change my mind on this subject. I Loved it when I got my Cloak of Flames in EQ. it was one of those items EVERYONE wanted because you could put it on a lev 1 monk and level much faster than normal. But its NOT hurting the game because I worked my rear end off to get that Cloak of Flames. And it made it where I lev 1 monk was able to solo Much longer until I found groups. I would also be able to solo Whites and Yellow cons instead of blues which made me level faster so i COULD catch up to group with others. This also does NOT hurt the game because obviously, if I have a character high enough level to have a cloak of flames, I have already seen the low end content. I am not missing out on anything.
Who wants a lev 5 monk with a cloak of Flames and 2 Wu Trance sticks etc that is no better than a lev 5 with cloth and a cracked staff. Horrible. Hate it. Ruins the game.
Twinking and mentoring can't be used together. So without twinking, it makes me very sad for this game....
Knowing that mentoring vs twinking in the game is such a big deal to me, this thread just cost Pantheon $900 in support. I was going to get the $500 pledge because I really wanted all the goodies that came with it. The cloth map being a Biggie! my brother was going to do the same. Both of use Love to twink our alts. it was one of those really fun things we enjoyed SO much in EQ. He also just said, well, never mind on that. So he isn't pledging at all now since he doesn't care about beta testing games, and if mentoring is in and twinking is out. I won't do more than the $100 because its not the game I was hoping for any more.
Given it seems you've made up your mind there's nothing more to comment on it. I will say that its a severe case of nitpicking.
Medjai said:My problem still remains. If I am lev 50 and have a Cloak of Flames, I get down leveled to 5 to group with the lev 5 guy needing a group. We group. great.
How does this effect a Cloak of Flames if I want to give it to my lev 5 warrior? instead of being an AWESOME piece of gear, it gets downleveled to lev 5 as well?
I lose my 36% haste on that item since its on a lev 5? If not, a lev 5 twinked would be better than a lev 50 down leveled.
If my Cloak of Flames is down leveled to 5 and gets .5% haste instead of 36% haste, then you just ruined the value of that item and made it useless to anyone but the level appropriate person.
And THAT SUCKS. Just making up numbers here. Cloak of Flames on EQ is worth 50,000 plat. On Pantheon, since it gets completely gimped BECAUSE OF MENTORING, it worth 5K .....
Twinking is a blast and makes Good Tradable items HOLD VALUE. Mentoring Takes ALL that value away....
Nothing can change my mind on this subject. I Loved it when I got my Cloak of Flames in EQ. it was one of those items EVERYONE wanted because you could put it on a lev 1 monk and level much faster than normal. But its NOT hurting the game because I worked my rear end off to get that Cloak of Flames. And it made it where I lev 1 monk was able to solo Much longer until I found groups. I would also be able to solo Whites and Yellow cons instead of blues which made me level faster so i COULD catch up to group with others. This also does NOT hurt the game because obviously, if I have a character high enough level to have a cloak of flames, I have already seen the low end content. I am not missing out on anything.
Who wants a lev 5 monk with a cloak of Flames and 2 Wu Trance sticks etc that is no better than a lev 5 with cloth and a cracked staff. Horrible. Hate it. Ruins the game.
Twinking and mentoring can't be used together. So without twinking, it makes me very sad for this game....
Knowing that mentoring vs twinking in the game is such a big deal to me, this thread just cost Pantheon $900 in support. I was going to get the $500 pledge because I really wanted all the goodies that came with it. The cloth map being a Biggie! my brother was going to do the same. Both of use Love to twink our alts. it was one of those really fun things we enjoyed SO much in EQ. He also just said, well, never mind on that. So he isn't pledging at all now since he doesn't care about beta testing games, and if mentoring is in and twinking is out. I won't do more than the $100 because its not the game I was hoping for any more.
When you finish grouping with the lower level person, the mentor pact breaks and you and all of your gear, stats, buffs return to normal level 40 (or whatever level you were prior to mentoring someone) it isn't permanent, so I don't see what your problem is?
If you want to twink an alt then give them an item and don't mentor them, I really think you are overreacting due to a lack of understanding of the mentor system.
Raive, I get it- that makes perfect sense!.
I had never been to Rivervale untill I was like 50 and by then the faction quests were not as impacful, (immersive to me) I had always wanted to go when younger
- by your example- I could become young again and experience Rivervale and do hokey quests at an appropriate age with the warrior- and go to other places like kurns tower and all those strange places I merely ran through or never went to as older because I never experienced them at the appropriate age and had no reason to at the current age.
But what about faction or religious allignment? As a good, I could not "mentor down" to an evil in order to help the warrior kill halflings, could I?
ooh! or would the benefit be....if I mentored down I would have only one choice to mentor down to, and it COULD be an evil with all rights and previleges thereto as an evil.
But once I mentored back up, the memory of the factions and evil alignment would remain with the evil spawn and not be associated with me, the "parent"
But the goods would remain- allowing me to get obscure, evil, lore, quest items- on my good character?!
*blink* That would be kind of cool. Add an "alt" so to speak but in a game play way. The epic quests could be made more epic in requiring the thing from the evil/good place that could only be obtained as a mentor (deus ex ludicrum)
Kilsins 2 cents cleared the air.
Personal note: I fear some evil ebayers and RMT'ers may be sniffing around at this to look for loopholes: Mentee sold and not main but Mentee wears twinkage. In effect "why buy the gear/plat seperate when you can get the mule for free" (from the mysonigistic colloquialism on relationship commitment: "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free")
Alexander said: Just some further clarification on the xp mechanic: so if a level 40 becomes a mentor and level 6, kills a dog and gets 10 xp, then that 10xp will become proportionately larger when he goes back to level 40? Like: 10 xp is 10% of the xp needed to get from level 6 to 7. Then when he is unmentored and returns to level 40, will he have gained 10% of the xp needed to get from level 40 to 41? Or will he have just gained 10 xp? I assume it's proportional, but couldnt that mean someone could level up to max staying as a mentor in a low level zone? I know you guys are tweaking it and the system isn't set yet, but just some questions for the hell of it. Fun discussing these things, obviously. And @Medjai: it seems like a high level item will retain its stats if transferred to a low level char. The only way its stats would be reduced would be if it was equipped on a mentor. But sounds like you could still give a CoF to a level 1 monk and solo like a happy twinkie.
I dont know this with 100% certainty but i am almost 100% sure it wont work in that way... you may see 10% of your level increase as the person who has mentored down and that too would be 10% of your actual real level and that wll remain when you go back to being lvl 40... however you wll not gain that 10% at anywhere near the same rate as your lil buddy who you have mentored down to help. He may gain 10 levels before you see 1/4 of your xp bar filled. Menotoring will not be a lucrative xp path to take for the character who s shedding levels, it will be a tool to help and to play with lower lvl friends, f you have mentored with the level gap you mentioned above you wont be writing home about how much your xp bar goes up with each kill :p Mentoring is just there to let you join in with the fray while not jepordising everyone elses xp / loot / fun
Alexander said: Just some further clarification on the xp mechanic: so if a level 40 becomes a mentor and level 6, kills a dog and gets 10 xp, then that 10xp will become proportionately larger when he goes back to level 40? Like: 10 xp is 10% of the xp needed to get from level 6 to 7. Then when he is unmentored and returns to level 40, will he have gained 10% of the xp needed to get from level 40 to 41? Or will he have just gained 10 xp? I assume it's proportional, but couldnt that mean someone could level up to max staying as a mentor in a low level zone?
I think it's pretty safe to assume that no scaling was implied in Kilsin's post. Seeing as low levels are much faster to achieve than high levels, with a system like that we'd have a bunch of level 50's running around by day 2 or 3.
That said, I feel pretty strongly that there should be no regular xp provided to the person who mentors down. The level 40 dropping to level 5 to gain 10xp per kill probably isn't a good example, as 10xp is probably meaningless to a level 40. But what about a level 40 mentoring down to level 30? If someone finds a niche camp where they can solo mobs that are say lvl 32 or 33 through some form of emergent gameplay, and those options aren't available to them at level 40--it could create a scenario where people view it as a path of least resistance to mentor down and level up by utilizing content below their true level. This should never be the case.
I never played Vanguard, so I'm going to take Kilsin at his word that the system worked well there. I'm still very leary of any mentoring system that awards xp for the mentorer though. I would much rather see some other form of incentive put into the game to encourage people to mingle with lower level toons.
Elrandir said:I never played Vanguard, so I'm going to take Kilsin at his word that the system worked well there. I'm still very leary of any mentoring system that awards xp for the mentorer though. I would much rather see some other form of incentive put into the game to encourage people to mingle with lower level toons.
And i thnk a good way to achieve this encouraged mingling with low lvl characters is to ensure that mentors are underpowered not overpowered. It should benefit a group to use a tru lvl 10 Tank instead of a mentored one, but a mentored tank should stl be able to play the role he is mentoring for but his montoring should weaken him so much so that he is not 1st choice or even so in a group the young tank gets a chance to keep tanking and racking up his tactical experence even if a high lvl tank has come along to help.
Alexander said: Just some further clarification on the xp mechanic: so if a level 40 becomes a mentor and level 6, kills a dog and gets 10 xp, then that 10xp will become proportionately larger when he goes back to level 40? Like: 10 xp is 10% of the xp needed to get from level 6 to 7. Then when he is unmentored and returns to level 40, will he have gained 10% of the xp needed to get from level 40 to 41? Or will he have just gained 10 xp? I assume it's proportional, but couldnt that mean someone could level up to max staying as a mentor in a low level zone? I know you guys are tweaking it and the system isn't set yet, but just some questions for the hell of it. Fun discussing these things, obviously. And @Medjai: it seems like a high level item will retain its stats if transferred to a low level char. The only way its stats would be reduced would be if it was equipped on a mentor. But sounds like you could still give a CoF to a level 1 monk and solo like a happy twinkie.
No, it remains at 10 exp, it does not scale otherwise that is where the door could open for exploits and farming low-level areas etc. If you kill a level 6 mob and get 10 exp then break the mentor pact and return to level 40 then you will still have 10 exp extra for killing that lower level mob, which is very fair in my view.
Elrandir said:Alexander said:That said, I feel pretty strongly that there should be no regular xp provided to the person who mentors down. The level 40 dropping to level 5 to gain 10xp per kill probably isn't a good example, as 10xp is probably meaningless to a level 40. But what about a level 40 mentoring down to level 30? If someone finds a niche camp where they can solo mobs that are say lvl 32 or 33 through some form of emergent gameplay, and those options aren't available to them at level 40--it could create a scenario where people view it as a path of least resistance to mentor down and level up by utilizing content below their true level. This should never be the
If they get a profit of absolute 0 then what is the point of even scaling down? I do believe I heard there is no mob tagging system in place so why wouldn't the person who was going to mentor down just outside dd/heal/tank or even pl at that point? granted 10xp to a level 50 is probably .000000001% or less of his level up but it is still something (granted if 50 is max he gets nothing unless he is getting faction or something else from the kills).
pendragen said:If they get a profit of absolute 0 then what is the point of even scaling down? I do believe I heard there is no mob tagging system in place so why wouldn't the person who was going to mentor down just outside dd/heal/tank or even pl at that point? granted 10xp to a level 50 is probably .000000001% or less of his level up but it is still something (granted if 50 is max he gets nothing unless he is getting faction or something else from the kills).
Like I said at the end of my post, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an incentive for mentoring. I just feel pretty strongly that the incentive should not be in the form of exp. There are any number of benefits to mentoring that could be employed that could benefit a player without creating the risk of exploitation or compromising the integrity of the leveling system. For example, it's already been suggested that there will be a system in place to sacrifice old armor/weapons for temporary buffs to curb mudflation. One solution would be to convert xp gained while mentoring to some form of currency used for attaining these sorts of buffs. The mentorer would still gain a benefit from this, even if he/she were max level/xp capped, and there is no risk of xp exploits.
Kilsin:
When you finish grouping with the lower level person, the mentor pact breaks and you and all of your gear, stats, buffs return to normal level 40 (or whatever level you were prior to mentoring someone) it isn't permanent, so I don't see what your problem is?
If you want to twink an alt then give them an item and don't mentor them, I really think you are overreacting due to a lack of understanding of the mentor system.
I understand that once you stop mentoring, that you items go back to lev 40.
What I am gettng at, if I am lev 40 and mentor to lev 6 all my stats are brought down to lev 6 so that I am not OP. I am effectively lev 6 and I do not get the benefit of 36% haste since I have been brought down to lev 6. I am basically lev 6. I might get 1% haste at lev 6 because I am mentoring, and yes, it goes right back to 36% when I drop group and go back to 40. I get that. it's not permenant.
1.) If I have a Cloak of Flames and give it to a lev 6 ALT, since there is No level requirement on the item, I would be lev 6 and get the full 36% haste?
IF that is true, a lev 6 mentoring from 40 is WORSE than a Real Lev 6 ALT with a cloak of flames? Right?
2.) Is the game going to be smart enough that it doesn't "mentor" ANY item that does not have a level requirement? I can be lev 40 with a cloak of flames, and when I mentor down, since that item has no level requirement, I Still have 36% haste when I mentor down to lev 6? IF this is the case, the high level will be OP and plow thru everything just like EQ2.
2A.) Some may say "the same thing would happen if you put the CoF on a lev 6, you would plow thru content" Wrong. a Real level six still has crappy skills. I might swing 3 times faster than a normal lev 6 but I am going to miss 3 times as much as well. The lev 40 mentored down will have Maxed skills, and will be OP. The real lev 6 twinked still has crappy defense, still has crappy dodge, crappy everything. The real lev 6 twinked might be able to solo a Yellow con vs being able to solo a blue if he wasn't twinked. A lev 40 mentored will be able to PLOW thru yellows like they are greens.
3.) if I put that CoF on a real lev 6 and it gets nerfed down to 1% haste, then there is no twinking in Pantheon and the CoF has Way less value since it really only works if you are an appropriate level to wear it even if there is no level requirement.
The reason CoF still sells for 50K (made up number) in EQ is because I get full stats at lev 1.
I can promise you, no matter how to slice it, its going to end up being no different than the EQ2 mentoring. Yes I can group with a noobie friend no matter what level I am, but my noob friend will have no respect for the real power of mobs because I will be plowing thru stuff and basically power leveling my friend.
blah. never mind. No one is going to understand this. I give up. I will just come back to this topic in 2 years and eat crow, or say I told you so.
I will lay 10 plat on 'Told you so.'
Either way. I am going to shut up on this topic. Anyone that wants mentoring will never change their mind, and people like me who don't want it will never change their minds so really is a moot point.
@Medjai I see where you're coming from. I think that this may be a bad assumption though:
Medjai said:
2A.) Some may say "the same thing would happen if you put the CoF on a lev 6, you would plow thru content" Wrong. a Real level six still has crappy skills. I might swing 3 times faster than a normal lev 6 but I am going to miss 3 times as much as well. The lev 40 mentored down will have Maxed skills, and will be OP. The real lev 6 twinked still has crappy defense, still has crappy dodge, crappy everything. The real lev 6 twinked might be able to solo a Yellow con vs being able to solo a blue if he wasn't twinked. A lev 40 mentored will be able to PLOW thru yellows like they are greens.
I would assume that the mentoring system would scale back both the skill and level modifiers used in combat to that of the level being mentored to. So: (made up numbers) a level 40 warrior with 150 defense would mentor down to a level 5 warrior with an effective 20 defense (the defense cap at level 5 for warriors). In this way gear would not need to be scaled down any differently than it would be if you chose to twink a character instead.
Medjai said:I can promise you, no matter how to slice it, its going to end up being no different than the EQ2 mentoring. Yes I can group with a noobie friend no matter what level I am, but my noob friend will have no respect for the real power of mobs because I will be plowing thru stuff and basically power leveling my friend.
blah. never mind. No one is going to understand this. I give up. I will just come back to this topic in 2 years and eat crow, or say I told you so.
I will lay 10 plat on 'Told you so.'
Either way. I am going to shut up on this topic. Anyone that wants mentoring will never change their mind, and people like me who don't want it will never change their minds so really is a moot point.
Well not if it is done well and the Mentoring player is not OP because his stat/hp/mana/damage/ac/haste/taunt reduction is drastic. So yes, in my opinion a lvl 6 player with your coak of flames should be a more viable opton for a group than a level 40, so content is not trivialised. There may be ways people work out to cheat the system, they would have to be fixed as they arise. The points you make are valid but maybe you shouldnt get too carred away wth the fact that you believe all is lost, a bit early yet for that with a Pantheons version f this system that has not been tested yet. have faith for now with them but having faith in them doesnt mean you should stop making constructive comments or asking questions.
While I appreciate bringing up situational corner-cases, I believe the developers know their responsibility in this design feature. I'm sure it will be implemented in a way to make it possible to play with your friends in a group no matter the level.
If you are concerned about stats, stats can change.
If you are concerned about the gear you are wearing and how it changes, the devs could simply replace all of your gear with placeholder items during your term of being lower level. Which means no set bonuses, no special damage features, just boring gear. (What's important is playing with your friend.)
I'd like to steer the conversation towards what I was concerned about. (selfish todd!)
There will be at some point a time where there are far more higher level players than there are lower level players. And the lower level players may not be friends or family with the higher level players. Should there be some kind of achievement or prestige to helping lower level people? I feel like there has to be some kind of benefit which has a universal value.
So when that high level player is running through a low level area and see's a person shouting LFG. It sure would be nice for the higher level player to consider stopping and helping a stranger because it benefits them in some way.
Maybe ...
The experience you gain in a group while you are leveled down through the mentor system could also give you reputation. This reputation could be used for various things.
I understand the Mentoring system was probably thought of as a way for people who know each other to play with each other. But I also see it as a way to help veterans and new players connect who have no prior connection.
-Todd
tehtawd said:There will be at some point a time where there are far more higher level players than there are lower level players. And the lower level players may not be friends or family with the higher level players. Should there be some kind of achievement or prestige to helping lower level people? I feel like there has to be some kind of benefit which has a universal value.
So when that high level player is running through a low level area and see's a person shouting LFG. It sure would be nice for the higher level player to consider stopping and helping a stranger because it benefits them in some way.
You're right in that the mentoring system will probably be used almost exclusively to help people you already know. They're actually developing a separate system altogether, the "progeny" system, to incentivise people to re-roll and thus maintain a pressence of toons at all levels so that newer players have people around to group with. Nothing's set in stone yet, but there's a discussion thread about that too.
I tend to agree that creating something like the 'reputation' system that you suggest, or as I proposed above, tying rewards to another system like the tribute system they're planning, might be a better way to incentivise mentoring.