Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cash Shop is Being Considered

    • 742 posts
    April 10, 2021 4:35 PM PDT

    OMG I want a bow that can shoot rainbow unicorns with an accompanying neigh sound so bad. Ya'll can turn off your ability to see it if you want, just deal with the fact that my unicorns are awesome.

    • 231 posts
    April 10, 2021 4:55 PM PDT

    If thats the case I want full nudity as well, just make a toggle as Beaver said. (sarcasm is fun)

    • 742 posts
    April 10, 2021 5:33 PM PDT

    Gintoki88 said:

    If thats the case I want full nudity as well, just make a toggle as Beaver said. (sarcasm is fun)

    No need for VR to make it. If Pantheon ends up as anything at all someone will make a nudity mod for it.

    Besides I'm only half sarcastic here. If there was a unicorn bow, I'd have to use it, at least once. It's just one of those things you do in life.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at April 10, 2021 5:37 PM PDT
    • 742 posts
    April 10, 2021 5:36 PM PDT

    oops


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at April 10, 2021 5:37 PM PDT
    • 7 posts
    April 10, 2021 6:55 PM PDT

    The unicorn bow is from a long drawn out crafted legendary weapon quest, not a cash shop item.  It is called The Dreamer and apparently takes months to make...probably akin to EQ epics, just flashier and more time consuming.  It just proves that GW2 doesn't just give you drab armor and make you spend money to have interesting items.  They have stuff you can buy in the store and then there are many things earned in game that are crazy and unique so you have a choice.   You can still earn the prestige you are looking for if that is how you find value in the game.  You can also buy a trasmog item off their cash shop to replace your weapon skin as well if you didn't like the look of your shiny pony bow that does awesome damage. (side note, the actual skin of the bow is cute, I'd use it!  The neighing ponies seem a bit excessive though lol)

    Also, with a sub game its more supplemental income rather than the main focus.  GW2 has to keep it fresh and new because that is their income model just like fortnite.  They have to keep pumping out those skins to make their money.   Obviously I don't know how it would be, but my assumption here was where they add something new 1 or 2 times a year.  Probably more akin to how WoW does it.  They currently have 17 pets on their shop.  A lot of them were added quite some time ago with a random major content patch or their charity pets.  Now they have over 1000 unique pets in game.  You don't need those store pets, but some of them are super cute so you get them anyways....or you don't because you can't afford it or refuse to out of principle.  They keep them around for so long you could save a dollar a month and get them in a year if you wanted to.  

    Realistically it will probably be fine either way. If they do a cash shop, I'm sure VR would do it tastefully and carefully as they are well aware that it is a touchy subject. If I had to choose between no cash shop and VR basically treading water vs *cosmetic cash shop and they are about to pump out more content/events/etc because they got to hire more people, I would pick the cash *cosmetic shop any day.  (again, no tokens or whatever, just cosmetics)


    This post was edited by Nexira at April 10, 2021 6:58 PM PDT
    • 27 posts
    April 11, 2021 8:40 PM PDT

    AbsoluteTerror said:

    Can't believe this is still open and not lock yet. 

    Open debate about real topics, like financing an MMO, are not only super informative, but entertaining. I'd love to be proven wrong about my viewpoint, but I still don't see an issue with cosmetic shops.

    philo said:

    Brad said:

    "The revenue model needs to match the game.  If you've designed a game - let's say it's a mobile game - you need to bring people in, you need to expose it to as many people as possible because only a certain percentage are going to monetise, then I agree, it becomes about getting as many people playing as possible because you know some will spend more money.

    But if you're making a game that is meant to be played for a longer period of time, then I think you should have a target audience and you should spend the time making the best game for them because you want to keep them around. Every player is important - not just the 3% or 5% that monetise. And especially if you're using the sub model, keeping them around and keeping them happy and making it more than a game and more of a home, that's what's important."

    I enjoyed that quote. I didn't think of it from that perspective.

    • 9 posts
    April 19, 2021 6:53 PM PDT

    Aanwenae said: As a whole, I'd prefer NO cash shop at all. However, if one is implemented for whatever reason, it is my hope that it would be limited to cosmetic/fluff items only. And those same items are also obtainable through game play. And let's keep those items true to the nature of the game world.

     

    I agree, but instead of cosmetic items which can devalue the coolness of real gear earned I think I'd prefer things like emotes and idle effects.

    • 10 posts
    April 22, 2021 7:44 PM PDT

    I hope they can do both for different customers.  Personally, I'd rather pay a $50+ monthly sub for a server with no cash shop that I'd continually play for many years.  Other server type can be a more f2p cash shop option for that type of customer that prefers that monetization.  Some people like to play for 3-6 months then leave temporarily or permanently. 

    • 390 posts
    April 23, 2021 10:17 AM PDT

    So I'm pretty much against a cash shop in this game, but not in general. I think it fits some games and not others and I don't believe you can have that classic feel of a MMO with a cash shop. That being said IF I had to have one this is what I'd prefer.

     

    Nothing in the cash shop is exclusive to the cash shop. Nothing in the cash shop is from a raid or high level content. Then what's left? Special event items. If Pantheon has a New Years event which rewards items... say 6 months after the event they appear on the cash shop. I will have virtually no issue with this.

    • 53 posts
    April 28, 2021 4:30 AM PDT

    One of the things Brad spoke very clearly about in describing his vision is that when you look at what a player is wearing, you know exactly where and how the player got that armor / clothing. And that it would have a unique appearance different from other armor / clothing. Anything in the area of transmorgs or online shop items which blurs that vision is a very bad thing. If it doesn't, and it doesn't confer in-game benefits, I don't care about the shop.

    • 1229 posts
    April 28, 2021 6:42 AM PDT

    If Pantheon did not include a cash shop it would be a selling feature of this game since almost every other MMO has one now days.

    • 1831 posts
    May 2, 2021 5:07 PM PDT

    I believe Ben was using a hypothetical answer in saying " if there was to be", that's not confirmation that is just saying that if there ever was to be, it would probably be for cosmetic items that have no impact on game play.  I think they were planning on bringing the online store that they had which had tangible items, that would be awesome.  I have been waiting for that


    This post was edited by Kelem at May 2, 2021 5:08 PM PDT
    • 89 posts
    May 2, 2021 5:35 PM PDT

    We definitely need a cash shop for 2 items Only: To Sell game subscriptions and download/dvd/Blu-ray copies of the game license.  Spend the rest of the devs' time on releasing the game please!


    This post was edited by Baerr at May 2, 2021 5:37 PM PDT
    • 1229 posts
    May 15, 2021 9:42 PM PDT

    For people who want to learn more about some philosophy against cash shops, check out KiraTV on YouTube. I think he does a fantastic job explaining why cash shops ruin games. His philosophy is that companies create problems to later sell you the solution, and that you shouldn't have games designed were players want to pay to skip content or pay to get better looking items. It disincentivizes the companies from making good products that people want to play.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRoYayTU-L4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 15, 2021 9:59 PM PDT
    • 5 posts
    May 15, 2021 11:18 PM PDT

    Kelem said:

    I believe Ben was using a hypothetical answer in saying " if there was to be", that's not confirmation that is just saying that if there ever was to be, it would probably be for cosmetic items that have no impact on game play.  I think they were planning on bringing the online store that they had which had tangible items, that would be awesome.  I have been waiting for that

     

    IRL Merch and subscriptions (no trade) would be cool for a shop.

     

    I think we need to keep shiny-glowy things to be unique to in game discoverable and award based items.

    • 742 posts
    May 16, 2021 5:08 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    For people who want to learn more about some philosophy against cash shops, check out KiraTV on YouTube. I think he does a fantastic job explaining why cash shops ruin games. His philosophy is that companies create problems to later sell you the solution, and that you shouldn't have games designed were players want to pay to skip content or pay to get better looking items. It disincentivizes the companies from making good products that people want to play.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRoYayTU-L4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w

    If they make a bad product that I don't want to play, then I won't play. I assume others feel the same. Is that enough incentive for you?

    I completely agree that cash shops shouldn't make you stronger or more efficient, just like you shouldn't be able to multibox for the same effect.

    Better looking stuff that can be optionally be toggled out of sight, out of mind? I'm sorry, but I don't think better looking stuff, which is especially valuable because streamers tend to buy ALL of it, will hurt Pantheon. If the developers really decide to not make anything that isn't from the cash shop look good, they can enjoy losing many, many subs.

    • 386 posts
    May 17, 2021 12:31 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    For people who want to learn more about some philosophy against cash shops, check out KiraTV on YouTube. I think he does a fantastic job explaining why cash shops ruin games. His philosophy is that companies create problems to later sell you the solution, and that you shouldn't have games designed were players want to pay to skip content or pay to get better looking items. It disincentivizes the companies from making good products that people want to play.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRoYayTU-L4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5879kOeT_w

    I agree with this POV.  MMOs have gone through a deevolution to micro-transactions and cash shops.  Instead of designing a game to be the best possible experience, they instead design the games to leave room for the influence of cash shops.  I was injoying the Rift when they intruduced the cash shop and "Free to Play".  At the same time they removed fall damage, because of a bug with players taking fall damage while mounted (if my recall is correct).  They were selling mounts in the cash shop.  When they did this playing solo became way to easy, because it was easier to avoid high level mobs, cause I could just jump off a cliff and the AI pathing would not follow.  I quit after a week or so after the cash shop and FTP

    if you are making design choices or making changes the gameplay because your planing a cash shop, then just give everyone's money back and let's all go home.


    This post was edited by Caine at May 17, 2021 12:33 PM PDT
    • 1229 posts
    May 17, 2021 4:12 PM PDT

    Caine said:

    I agree with this POV.  MMOs have gone through a deevolution to micro-transactions and cash shops.  Instead of designing a game to be the best possible experience, they instead design the games to leave room for the influence of cash shops.  I was injoying the Rift when they intruduced the cash shop and "Free to Play".  At the same time they removed fall damage, because of a bug with players taking fall damage while mounted (if my recall is correct).  They were selling mounts in the cash shop.  When they did this playing solo became way to easy, because it was easier to avoid high level mobs, cause I could just jump off a cliff and the AI pathing would not follow.  I quit after a week or so after the cash shop and FTP

    if you are making design choices or making changes the gameplay because your planing a cash shop, then just give everyone's money back and let's all go home.

    One of the other good points he makes is that people who say they 'don't care' may think that way until the company starts selling items for something you do care about, and by that time it's too late.

    • 742 posts
    May 18, 2021 11:49 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Caine said:

    I agree with this POV.  MMOs have gone through a deevolution to micro-transactions and cash shops.  Instead of designing a game to be the best possible experience, they instead design the games to leave room for the influence of cash shops.  I was injoying the Rift when they intruduced the cash shop and "Free to Play".  At the same time they removed fall damage, because of a bug with players taking fall damage while mounted (if my recall is correct).  They were selling mounts in the cash shop.  When they did this playing solo became way to easy, because it was easier to avoid high level mobs, cause I could just jump off a cliff and the AI pathing would not follow.  I quit after a week or so after the cash shop and FTP

    if you are making design choices or making changes the gameplay because your planing a cash shop, then just give everyone's money back and let's all go home.

    One of the other good points he makes is that people who say they 'don't care' may think that way until the company starts selling items for something you do care about, and by that time it's too late.

    So basically, the argument is that if VR makes pay to look good items, they will DEFINATELY, 100%, decide to make pay for convenience and pay to win shortly after? Despite knowing that they are making a game that they want to last longer rather than blow up real big for a short time like most mmos? Despite knowing, from this very thread, that their old style game playerbase won't appreciate it at all?

    I hate a lot of decisions VR are making. Even I don't think they are that bad at this.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at May 18, 2021 11:51 AM PDT
    • 918 posts
    May 18, 2021 2:06 PM PDT

    If there has to be a cash shop, here is a list of what I'd consider do-able for a cash shop:

    Idle standing poses/animations.

    Idle sitting poses/animations.

    Death animations.

    Emotes.

    Changing the animations or particle effects of your attacks/abilities/spells. (Only slight changes with this one so people still recognize what abilities you're doing.)

    Dances. (ala Fortnite)

    Decorations for your house, if the game has housing with decorating. (ala EQ2)

    Animations for how your character walks/runs.

    Animations for how your character rides a mount.

     

    These are all items we know people would pay for (looking at you Fortnite) and they are all things that do nothing to hinder any other players time in the game.

    I disagree with Cash Shop for wearable cosmetic items. I think they could be added to a Cash Shop AFTER a player has unlocked (obtained) that item for looks. But you shouldn't be able to buy armor that looks like you've killed the hardest mobs in the game, until you've actually killed the hardest mobs in the game.

    • 448 posts
    May 19, 2021 5:10 AM PDT

    I think all the animation requests would be negative in an RPG.  Silly cosmetics in a shooter don't really matter.  Silly cosmetics in an RPG though are tied to the RP.  Yes it is certainly better to hurt RP and not hurt combat, but it is still a negative. 

     

    I think VR should first focus on separate from the game, such as physical merch and forum options.  People can have emojis and special icons on the forums, you could even follow reddit idea and have people buy a "gold star"    

    Ability to send gifts to other accounts is a must have option.  I can almost guarantee I will never buy anything for myself outside of a cloth map for nastalgia.  That said I would have bought multiple friends early copies of the game already if it were easy single purchases to help fund the game.  This applies in live as well.  If a good friend has a birthday, I would be totally willing to send them something simple that makes fun of how often they die or even a positive gift sometimes.  We should never even need their address.  Tie it to in game data like allowing people to order a mug with a HD image of their PC in a pose of our choice.  Guild logos and other options would be cool, short messages in a nice font or whatever in game idea that sells. 

    Did you send me the "Leaf on the wind" mug?  Yeah

    Was it really necessary to have my PC sitting down with a ballista bolt through the heart?  Yeah


    This post was edited by Jobeson at May 19, 2021 5:12 AM PDT
    • 1229 posts
    May 19, 2021 11:08 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    So basically, the argument is that if VR makes pay to look good items, they will DEFINATELY, 100%, decide to make pay for convenience and pay to win shortly after? Despite knowing that they are making a game that they want to last longer rather than blow up real big for a short time like most mmos? Despite knowing, from this very thread, that their old style game playerbase won't appreciate it at all?

    I hate a lot of decisions VR are making. Even I don't think they are that bad at this.

    Not sure if serious ... so let me repost what I said.

    bigdogchris said:

    you shouldn't have games designed were players want to pay to skip content or pay to get better looking items. It disincentivizes the companies from making good products that people want to play.

    Right now, you may not care if they add a cash shop, but what if someday they add a cash shop and sell things you don't want them to -suddenly you will care? By then it's too late. If what they want to sell truely adds value to the game, then as a consumer don't you want them to add it to the game you are already paying for, rather than asking you to pay even more? That's why it's important to take the stand against it now before a cash shop gets added to begin with.

    If you don't have an opinion either way, then side with the consumer. Generally speaking, what is in the consumers best interest is not systems designed to get you to spend more money. Not speaking about any specific company, it is a conflict of interest for that company to be the one deciding what's best/fair/balanced when they are the one profiting from the decisions.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 19, 2021 11:27 AM PDT
    • 742 posts
    May 19, 2021 4:52 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Right now, you may not care if they add a cash shop, but what if someday they add a cash shop and sell things you don't want them to -suddenly you will care? By then it's too late. If what they want to sell truely adds value to the game, then as a consumer don't you want them to add it to the game you are already paying for, rather than asking you to pay even more? That's why it's important to take the stand against it now before a cash shop gets added to begin with.

    If you don't have an opinion either way, then side with the consumer. Generally speaking, what is in the consumers best interest is not systems designed to get you to spend more money. Not speaking about any specific company, it is a conflict of interest for that company to be the one deciding what's best/fair/balanced when they are the one profiting from the decisions.

    That's just the thing, I want a cash shop full of pointless things that don't add value to the game, that people who want to spend extra on can. For example a different but cool looking skin for the sword. That sword skin can even be findable somewhere in the game. 

    Complete the cash shop with a toggle off for all of the purely cosmetic cash shop items so the more intense players can completely ignore the existence of the cash shop.

    As VR draw new stuff for the game, undoubtedly they will have stuff they feel doesn't quite fit. Rather than the trash, throw it into the cash shop.

    It's such an incredibly easy way for VR to make that extra cash. Which, if they use it well, leads to the very amazing content you and I both want.

    Again, saying that they might suddenly start selling things I don't like is unfair. They might also decide to introduce godzilla into the game and destroy every major city and npc, because it's cool and hardcore. Fretting over VR suddenly going crazy and doing something really stupid to the game gets us nowhere. You either trust VR to make decisions based on their own promises, or you don't.

    Finally, the conflict of interest does not apply to Pantheon. Putting more in the cash shop is "burst" money, like an ice comet is "burst" damage. VR wants Pantheon to be an immersive world that we spend a very long time in. Dots always do more damage than burst because you gotta wait for them to play out. Yes, VR should take whatever money they can easily get. However, going for burst damage to the point they no longer have the mana for dots is simply not their game plan.

    They know their playerbase will not appreciate pay to win/for convenience. They know that this is a decision that makes quick money, but loses subs in the long run. There is no way they can add a toggle off option for such things. So they won't do it, even if they already have a cash shop.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at May 19, 2021 5:03 PM PDT
    • 39 posts
    June 15, 2021 10:24 AM PDT

    After seeing the debacle that has been Amazon's upcoming cash shop and having numerous discussions across the web, some very obvious things came to mind. The following discsussion items are in regards to cash shops/microtransactions.



    Transmog: Introducing paid transmog items is an incentive for developers to invest in making the shop items better looking than normal world items, which also makes trying to find an item in-game less worthwhile. It's kind of the definition of a double-edged sword.

    "Quality of life" and "time-saving"/"convenince" items: These items being purchasable means either there is a core aspect of the game that should be made better or parts of the game are not designed well enough to be fun. An easy example of this would be level boosts: either the leveling content is not engaging or the exp gain is a barrier that needs adjusting.

     

    How can we encourage VR that making content that is great and earning the sub fee is a better business model than microtransactions where they are incentivized to make a less than perfect game to sell the solutions to those problems? If a sub fee + box fee isn't enough to support the game and servers, hopefully the team and us can come up with something creative that doesn't encourage pumping out content that detracts from the actual game.

    Side note: one comment I see a lot is: "I won't buy cosemtics, so it won't bother me if the cash shop is in the game, it won't affect me". I feel this is faulty logic, because it does affect everyone playing the game because that is manpower that is being devoted to that project + forces that path to dropping your card into the shop to be something enticing. As a fan of open source software and given the fact this is currently a partially crowdfunded game, why not have continued additional pledges, donations, and perks outside of the game (ie Patreon rewards is a good example of this for content creators). Maybe special interviews, patch notes ahead of time, special chat channels, etc. 

    • 52 posts
    June 15, 2021 12:41 PM PDT
    My opinion of cash shops is simple...if it is a pay sub fee to play there should be no cash shop. If it is buy to play (gw2) or sub optional (eq2) then a cash shop is needed for income. With a sub only model my 15/20/25 dollars a month or whatever (and everyone else's) should be going towards future development and upkeep of the game. I should not be paying a sub fee for VR to pay an employee to make something that I have to pay more to get.

    Daloskar