Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cash Shop is Being Considered

    • 754 posts
    June 15, 2021 8:06 PM PDT

    Matauris said:


    Side note: one comment I see a lot is: "I won't buy cosemtics, so it won't bother me if the cash shop is in the game, it won't affect me". I feel this is faulty logic, because it does affect everyone playing the game because that is manpower that is being devoted to that project + forces that path to dropping your card into the shop to be something enticing. As a fan of open source software and given the fact this is currently a partially crowdfunded game, why not have continued additional pledges, donations, and perks outside of the game (ie Patreon rewards is a good example of this for content creators). Maybe special interviews, patch notes ahead of time, special chat channels, etc. 

    So why is it again that VR can't use that money they make from the cash shop to get more manpower for the game's projects, and also make enticing gear in the game along with the cash shop?

    What is this assumption that the cash shop won't pay for itself... If it really won't pay for itself of course VR shouldn't do it.

    But if watching people in cosmetic shop games like LoL is anything to go by...The cosmetic cash shop will much more than pay for itself.

    Even if it doesn't include anything incredibly unique or better looking than what you find in the game. Even if there's a toggle off button. I'm willing to bet, the cosmetic shop will be profitable. Some people want to look cool earlier on in their character's career. Some people want gag looks. Some people just want to support the game and still say they got something from it, especially if they have an army of fans to show that thing off to.

    Profit helps ALL PARTS of games to become better, assuming VR can properly use their money.

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 15, 2021 8:08 PM PDT
    • 39 posts
    June 16, 2021 3:34 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Matauris said:


    Side note: one comment I see a lot is: "I won't buy cosemtics, so it won't bother me if the cash shop is in the game, it won't affect me". I feel this is faulty logic, because it does affect everyone playing the game because that is manpower that is being devoted to that project + forces that path to dropping your card into the shop to be something enticing. As a fan of open source software and given the fact this is currently a partially crowdfunded game, why not have continued additional pledges, donations, and perks outside of the game (ie Patreon rewards is a good example of this for content creators). Maybe special interviews, patch notes ahead of time, special chat channels, etc. 

    So why is it again that VR can't use that money they make from the cash shop to get more manpower for the game's projects, and also make enticing gear in the game along with the cash shop?

    What is this assumption that the cash shop won't pay for itself... If it really won't pay for itself of course VR shouldn't do it.

    But if watching people in cosmetic shop games like LoL is anything to go by...The cosmetic cash shop will much more than pay for itself.

    Even if it doesn't include anything incredibly unique or better looking than what you find in the game. Even if there's a toggle off button. I'm willing to bet, the cosmetic shop will be profitable. Some people want to look cool earlier on in their character's career. Some people want gag looks. Some people just want to support the game and still say they got something from it, especially if they have an army of fans to show that thing off to.

    Profit helps ALL PARTS of games to become better, assuming VR can properly use their money. 


    There's no assumption on anyone's part that the cash shop won't more than pay for itself. That's exactly the problem. What is my incentive, as a company moreso than as a developer (I don't blame dev's for a lot of these monetization issues that plague many games), if most of my income is coming from the cash shop? To throw all of that money into a different part of the game, or to keep that cash coming in and those shoppers happy? I think we can agree that from a business perspective, it would be to keep that cash coming in. I would LOVE to imagine a world where the only consmetics were so trivial as to be unnoticable, but we all know that cosmetics need to look better if they're in the shop. Same situation applies, if my money is being made from making cool cosemtics, the base game isn't going to get as cool of cosmetic items.

    Regardless, I think there should be more discussion on seperate solutions, like those I provided in that quote. I think that there is a way for VR to make enough money to keep content flowing that doesn't have to involve a cash shop.

    Matauris said:

    As a fan of open source software and given the fact this is currently a partially crowdfunded game, why not have continued additional pledges, donations, and perks outside of the game (ie Patreon rewards is a good example of this for content creators). Maybe special interviews, patch notes ahead of time, special chat channels, etc. 


    This post was edited by Matauris at June 16, 2021 3:45 AM PDT
    • 1268 posts
    June 16, 2021 6:13 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    So why is it again that VR can't use that money they make from the cash shop to get more manpower for the game's projects, and also make enticing gear in the game along with the cash shop?

     

    There is zero evidence that a for profit company would re-invest each additional dollar they make into the product by hiring more people. Nor do you have evidence to support the idea that hiring more people is even required to maintain the game. What we do have evidence for, based on history of many other MMO's, is that cash shops are used to pad profit margins, even as subscribers decline, because a few select people (whales) are more than willing to hand over cash, hand-over-fist.

    I want Pantheon to be different than essentially every other MMO on the market. NOT having a cash shop, in 2021, could be one of the pillars of this. If you are so worried about Pantheon being successful to 'fund development' why not support them being a stand out in the market? You are asking them to blend into the crowd.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at June 16, 2021 7:55 AM PDT
    • 396 posts
    June 16, 2021 8:01 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    So why is it again that VR can't use that money they make from the cash shop to get more manpower for the game's projects, and also make enticing gear in the game along with the cash shop?

     

    There is zero evidence that a for profit company would re-invest each additional dollar they make into the product by hiring more people. Nor do you have evidence to support the idea that hiring more people is even required to maintain the game. What we do have evidence for, based on history of many other MMO's, is that cash shops are used to pad profit margins, even as subscribers decline, because a few select people (whales) are more than willing to hand over cash, hand-over-fist.

    I want Pantheon to be different than essentially every other MMO on the market. NOT having a cash shop, in 2021, could be one of the pillars of this. If you are so worried about Pantheon being successful to 'fund development' why not support them being a stand out in the market? You are asking them to blend into the crowd.

     

    Take D&D Alliance. Take Outriders (issues with it aside) not having a cash shop is a marketing tool now because people are so tired of cash shops. Not having a cash shop helps you stand out. 

    • 754 posts
    June 16, 2021 4:47 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    So why is it again that VR can't use that money they make from the cash shop to get more manpower for the game's projects, and also make enticing gear in the game along with the cash shop?

     

    There is zero evidence that a for profit company would re-invest each additional dollar they make into the product by hiring more people. Nor do you have evidence to support the idea that hiring more people is even required to maintain the game. What we do have evidence for, based on history of many other MMO's, is that cash shops are used to pad profit margins, even as subscribers decline, because a few select people (whales) are more than willing to hand over cash, hand-over-fist.

    I want Pantheon to be different than essentially every other MMO on the market. NOT having a cash shop, in 2021, could be one of the pillars of this. If you are so worried about Pantheon being successful to 'fund development' why not support them being a stand out in the market? You are asking them to blend into the crowd.

    There is zero evidence that being different than essentially every other mmo on the market works, and keeps on working. There is zero evidence that a group centric game remains that way. There's lots of evidence that making Pantheon into a Wow clone will make more money. 

    See what I did there?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. You either trust VR to keep the pantheon difference, or throw the game away. If you don't trust them with a cash shop, why do you trust VR to keep groups equal to raids, quest hubs/dailies out of the perception system, or pvp in it's own servers?

    Why do you trust VR to not eventually put in a cash shop, even if they don't at launch, if you think that all they care about is maximising short term profits?

    Why not argue to have absolutely nothing in Pantheon because we can't trust them, as a business, to maintain it in a desirable way? MMOs in history, have, quite often, messed up everything you could put in Pantheon after all. There's lots of evidence, from past mmo companies, that any feature in Pantheon will eventually drift to how 'WoW did it' for the sake of profit.

    I can trust VR, with their dreams about niches, to properly handle a cash shop. At the very least if VR proves untrustworthy and inconsistent there will be plenty of reasons outside of an overbearing cash shop to put down the game for good.

    EppE said:

    Take D&D Alliance. Take Outriders (issues with it aside) not having a cash shop is a marketing tool now because people are so tired of cash shops. Not having a cash shop helps you stand out.

    This is probably the best argument against cosmetic, reasonable cash shops I've seen.

    It depends on whether VR wants to attract customers with unreasonable and inconsistent prejudices against their company. While I might sound negative there, people with unreasonable and inconsistent beliefs can sometimes make for pretty big/wealthy customer bases, and should be considered.

    Matauris said:


    ..but we all know that cosmetics need to look better if they're in the shop..

    ...Regardless, I think there should be more discussion on seperate solutions, like those I provided in that quote. I think that there is a way for VR to make enough money to keep content flowing that doesn't have to involve a cash shop.

    That is the way others do it, yes. Why is VR forced to do it that way again? If just making short term profits is VR's goal they should just make a Wow clone.

    They aren't making a Wow clone, so I personally choose to anticipate VR bravely sticking to their niche even if it might not ever make them as big as WoW.

    All your other suggestions are great starting points. Let's consider putting them in with a reasonable cosmetics cash shop.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 16, 2021 5:44 PM PDT
    • 18 posts
    June 17, 2021 6:41 AM PDT

    Good video on the topic by Force Gaming: https://youtu.be/etnoU35ArEA


    This post was edited by Kaynrath at June 17, 2021 6:47 AM PDT
    • 399 posts
    June 17, 2021 11:53 AM PDT

    Kaynrath said:

    Good video on the topic by Force Gaming: https://youtu.be/etnoU35ArEA

    Decent video,

    Who ever came up with the term "Free to Play"  really needs to be tortured.  Free to play does not exist.

    Look back at EQ, when you saw high level character, it was awesome, because you new every piece of armor, every weapon was earned.  You were interested in inspecting the character because you knew, everything was earned through game-play.  it would build anticipation that one day you would earn such things.    The value system was created by the developers.  it was a tangable thing that kept me playing the game, because I wanted those things.  It means something

    Now, you can jump into various MMO's, and I don't look twice at another player, because I know there is no point.  Because there is cosmetic store, for 5 or 10 bucks  I can have a fire horse mount, or a cool looking weapon.  But the whole experience means much less.  I don't care anymore.  You don't have to earn how or what you Avatar looks like.  It's all cosmetic bullshit.   it does not mean anything.

    Which POV does VR want for thier game?   Are you designing the best possible game, or are you designing it for max profitability?  I am sure VR's answer is both.

    "If"  you need an in game store, because market forces demand it.  Then sell things are completely free with a Subscription.  Make it really clear, the best thing to do is the monthly Sub.  Play 10 levels for free, then start paying.  Simply restict players from level 10 onwards who don't pay a sub.  Or they can buy al'carte from the store like  $10 a characer slot.  $30 for the right to use a bank. 

    But no cosmetics because that would cheapen the experience.

     


    This post was edited by Caine at June 17, 2021 12:10 PM PDT
    • 18 posts
    June 17, 2021 12:35 PM PDT

    As long as VR makes a truly amazing game the money will come. Also, one can make an argument that adding a cash shop goes against, at least, half a dozen of the game tenets (that, by the way, are somewhat buried in the FAQ https://www.pantheonmmo.com/faq/what-are-pantheons-tenets/)


    This post was edited by Kaynrath at June 17, 2021 1:03 PM PDT
    • 754 posts
    June 17, 2021 9:31 PM PDT

    Caine said:

    But no cosmetics because that would cheapen the experience.

    You got it, VR is already talking about a button that turns off all cosmetic only additions to characters. So whatever anyone else sees, all you see is what they actually have. You get your valuable experience wanting the cool fire horse that someone actually earned in game, whether or not there is a cash shop.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 17, 2021 9:33 PM PDT
    • 24 posts
    June 18, 2021 5:34 AM PDT

    Caine said:

    Look back at EQ, when you saw high level character, it was awesome, because you new every piece of armor, every weapon was earned.  You were interested in inspecting the character because you knew, everything was earned through game-play.  it would build anticipation that one day you would earn such things.    The value system was created by the developers.  it was a tangable thing that kept me playing the game, because I wanted those things.  It means something

    ...

    "If"  you need an in game store, because market forces demand it.  Then sell things are completely free with a Subscription.  Make it really clear, the best thing to do is the monthly Sub.  Play 10 levels for free, then start paying.  Simply restict players from level 10 onwards who don't pay a sub.  Or they can buy al'carte from the store like  $10 a characer slot.  $30 for the right to use a bank. 

    This is a perspective I do absolutely get. But unfortunately, there is never only ONE perspective. Live would be SO easy otherwise.

    I started with EQ myself, but I was late, had no clue about MMOs, started on a recommended server and so I felt always like the youth, who stared longingly at these great guys with that great stuff. I worked and worked, but naturally these guys who started way before me, would always be ahead of me.

    And even if you start on a completely new server, there are so many possibilities, why you will always drag behind. Most people are not casual gamers because they don't want to play all the time, they simply can't. So a casual gamer will always drag behind. Not because he is a "bad" player, but simply because he can't invest more time in the game.

     

    I don't like cash shops, no matter if cosmetics only or pay to win, but I also don't like to watch market prices go insanely high, because of ingame inflation. If you don't know how to balance this out (and I don't) Gold sellers are a thing. I think no one likes them much, even the people who use them. But why are they used in the first place? For some because they are lazy, not willing to put in the work, if they can just pay for it. But there are also the people who will grudingly buy, because they want to keep playing the game they love, but feel they can't as "the meal they could easily afford a month ago, suddenly costs as much as they earn in a weak of gaming."

    I read some opinions VR should offer a no cash shop server and had to smile about that, as the first question we ask should be: How much money do companys make from cash shops? And calculate from there, how much more we would have to pay per month, to get rid of these kind of shops. I don't know the numbers, but I know that some people spend a lot at such shops. We don't have to get it, but it is a thing for sure and hard to ignore as a company. As even, if you love what you are doing for work: You still do it to make money.

    The other question would be: If I'm willing to pay that amount, will there be enough other players on that server with me all the time? Casual players will probably not choose such a server, just to make sure, that they have the option of a cash shop, should something change and they feel the need to use it. And while you could get rid of the cash shop, there is still the question, about how to avoid these pesky gold sellers. They were a thing, long before cash shops and there were also such services like leveling your char to max level, getting you this and that endgame stuff. All can be done for the right amount of money.

    So, I have to wonder: Back in the day, as I stared with awe at people with great gear: Did they really earn it? Who knows? With more experience in these games, there came also a final realization: Some of these guys got their great stuff, by stepping on the backs of others. Always telling them, that they weren't as long as them in the guild, didn't raid as often as others and therefore had to wait. So you waited until the point where the completely geared guys left for other guilds who did higher content, they couldn't do with you meagerly geared noobs or you were left otherwise behind, as "no one" was interested in doing that "old" content anymore and wanted to do new stuff. Stuff you couldn't do anymore with your outdated gear. Perhaps you were even offered to buy some gear, for a discount, to be viable to take part in the newer raids...

    Still not a friend of cash shops, but there are so many things in MMOs I would love if they just didn't happen. But I also get that for all of us, our own needs are for varying reasons often more important then the needs of others.

    So, lets try to have fun anyways!

     

    • 485 posts
    June 22, 2021 7:38 PM PDT
    If max level ends up being raid focused, the customization becomes important since everyone would nearly look the same. Cash shops to transmog your armor or whatever it will be called would be the only way to stand out.

    All my previous complaints about PCs looking like their armor becomes meaningless when most people have the same armor set. I have spent years thinking pantheon won't be raid focused, but recent decisions and threads have me thinking we may all end up wearing the same raid sets. If that ends up being the case then bring on the cash shop.
    • 2402 posts
    June 23, 2021 1:25 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Caine said:

    But no cosmetics because that would cheapen the experience.

    You got it, VR is already talking about a button that turns off all cosmetic only additions to characters. So whatever anyone else sees, all you see is what they actually have. You get your valuable experience wanting the cool fire horse that someone actually earned in game, whether or not there is a cash shop.

    Except we all know the oh-so-reasonable-sounding toggle is a bad idea for multiple good reasons that have been gone over before, but let's summarise the main points again: For the ones wanting cosmetics it means an unknown number of players - maybe all - maybe few - don't see your carefully curated look. For everyone we have the unimmersive confusion of never knowing if others are seeing what you do.


    This post was edited by disposalist at June 23, 2021 1:25 AM PDT
    • 2402 posts
    June 23, 2021 1:51 AM PDT

    Jobeson said: If max level ends up being raid focused, the customization becomes important since everyone would nearly look the same. Cash shops to transmog your armor or whatever it will be called would be the only way to stand out. All my previous complaints about PCs looking like their armor becomes meaningless when most people have the same armor set. I have spent years thinking pantheon won't be raid focused, but recent decisions and threads have me thinking we may all end up wearing the same raid sets. If that ends up being the case then bring on the cash shop.

    Even in Everquest, with a very limited set of 'good' gear at high level, I still don't remember people not being distinguishable.  I remember being a high level cleric in a raiding guild and our complete heal rotation group, all with similar level and experiences, still all had slightly different gear and were different races and sexes that were obvious even with the limited graphics.  In EQ you got used to looking for the differences, I suppose, but even so, I don't remember it being an issue.

    Everything I have heard from VR so far leads me to believe that itemisation will be much more varied and we know the graphics will be much more sophisticated.  I don't think it will be a problem.

    To be clear, I'd be all for limited, sensible transmog, but not because I'm worried about everyone looking the same, just because I like to tailor my avatars' look. And that is usually to avoid the sometimes wild 'high level' look for something more gritty and down-to-earth, so over-the-top cash shop cosmetics I do not want.

    Some sensible transmog ability could be something that *enhances* the 'earned' status of your gear (where you not only hunt good stat gear, you then hunt for good look items and then hunt the materials to enable an 'enchanter' to transmog the two), so perhaps it doesn't apply to the cash shop argument.

    My conclusion as I type this is: You don't need a cash shop to do 'cosmetics' (I prefer the transmog idea, as stated, but some think of them as the same...) or anything you might put in them.

    Cash shops are just a bad idea, full stop. If you put anything in them that is needed or even wanted by most, then it is just a 'stealth' way of stinging the customer for paying twice (or multiple times) for something that could and should have been in the main game. It's an awful business practice.

    If you put just unneeded and mostly unwanted fluff in them, then you are, surprise surprise; introducing unneeded and unwanted fluff into the game, which dilutes and cheapens your product.

    If you put in 'speed ups' like XP boosts, then you are cheapening the game and annoying those not willing to pay more money to make the game easier, or not wanting to make the game easier.

    I'm wracking my brain to think of anything that might be 'ok' to put in a cash shop to justify the idea and I just can't.  No that's not true, I can: T-Shirts, mugs, caps; real world transcations get you real world merchandise.  Let's keep the real world - especially cynical consumarism - out of the game, eh?

    • 25 posts
    June 23, 2021 6:47 AM PDT

    I for one just want clownsuits to return. I love clownsuits.

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2021 12:21 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Even in Everquest, with a very limited set of 'good' gear at high level, I still don't remember people not being distinguishable.  I remember being a high level cleric in a raiding guild and our complete heal rotation group, all with similar level and experiences, still all had slightly different gear and were different races and sexes that were obvious even with the limited graphics.  In EQ you got used to looking for the differences, I suppose, but even so, I don't remember it being an issue.

    Everything I have heard from VR so far leads me to believe that itemisation will be much more varied and we know the graphics will be much more sophisticated.  I don't think it will be a problem.

    Well EQ didn't have easily spawnable bosses to flood the game with the top loot, although the generic random drops from raid zones made them far more common than they may be in pantheon depending on how VR does raid zones.  I remember most mages having the same 2-3 robes with different dyes for instance.  EQ before the dyes caused people to really stand out.  I fully expected this would be vastly different in pantheon, however, with their talk on set bonuses compounded with the desire for people to spawn their bosses I fully expect raid sets will be the norm.

    If that happens I would gladly take a transmog idea over armor dyes.  Ideally though I am just completely wrong about the way things seem to be going. 

     

    disposalist said:

    I'm wracking my brain to think of anything that might be 'ok' to put in a cash shop to justify the idea and I just can't.  No that's not true, I can: T-Shirts, mugs, caps; real world transcations get you real world merchandise.  Let's keep the real world - especially cynical consumarism - out of the game, eh?

     

    I want this for gifting people.  I want to send customizable mugs or tshirts and things.  "I can make it!" over the image of their corpse at the bottom of a cliff.  Gifts sent with user confirmations and never knowing their addresses and the like to keep things from getting creepy. 


    This post was edited by Jobeson at June 24, 2021 12:26 PM PDT
    • 754 posts
    June 30, 2021 10:53 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Except we all know the oh-so-reasonable-sounding toggle is a bad idea for multiple good reasons that have been gone over before, but let's summarise the main points again: For the ones wanting cosmetics it means an unknown number of players - maybe all - maybe few - don't see your carefully curated look. For everyone we have the unimmersive confusion of never knowing if others are seeing what you do.

    If you need ALL other players to see your carefully curated look, and don't use it just for yourself, your friends, and that occassional person running by who happens to actually think like you..You might consider scratching this particular itch outside of a hardcore mmo.

    This itch feels very specific to me because I don't have it. I would use the cosmetic cash shop occassionally but don't need anyone to see my stuff. If I really really want someone to see my look I could probably just become their friend and ask them to turn on the toggle, or just already have friends who have similar interests to me in the first place.

    VR would thus make extra money from me, which is always a good thing, because money makes products better when spent well on the product that made it. It's like a farmer who makes extra money selling potatoes and reinvests it into buying more land or a wider variety of better farming goods.

    So again, if you need specific and big itches scratched for your cash shop, find a game where it makes a bit more sense to scratch that itch. VR's cash shop should only ever provide a little extra cash, and only ever require a very small amount of work. The things it sells should never get too crazy in looks except for festivals (where it somehow isn't realistic to use inside deep caves), because even cosmetics people might appreciate realistic and immersive looks.

    If you are worried about the unimmersive confusion of never knowing what others are seeing (I am not, I assume there are others like me), you can build your character out of the real stuff you find in the game. You'll do that exact same thing without a cash shop anyways.

    People who have cosmetics turned on won't magically stop seeing what you are actually wearing, unless you put cosmetic stuff over top that.

    Do you really think that cosmetic people won't properly appreciate your incredibly difficult to find gear, if you make it look good? Sure some cosmetics people just wanna show off their money but frankly do you really want their appreciation anyways? Would you be able to get their appreciation without a cash shop in the game in the first place?

    Do you really think that people who truly love cosmetics in general won't try to build their natural gear into their look, especially if they know there are people who can't see their cosmetics? If you enjoy making your character sexy, doesn't getting to do that twice, once when you decide you like the game, and once when you are a high level (much, much later), sound like fun?

    Don't just force everyone else to not have cosmetics just because you want them to see on their characters what you see.

    disposalist said:

    Let's keep the real world - especially cynical consumarism - out of the game, eh?

    I feel like you should be more honest, there will be plenty of real world in the game. The nostalgia of being a young dumb kid playing eq or whatever won't come back in this way. You now know that your game developer needs money, and customers. VR needs them.

    1. Even when things are going well, and VR doesn't need more right now, that extra cash helps make the game better in literally every way.
    2. Even if the game doesn't need more customers, people make mmos mmos for longer.
    3. If a member of VR decided to roleplay a racist, because Terminus has lots, and went a little too far, it would definately have out of game consequences.
    4. The cool gm who pops in and makes a fun event does that on company money, probably after careful conversation with other departments within VR.
    5. The pnp is written, and looked over again and again, on company money.
    6. The guild you join might very well ask you for a gamer resume.
    7. Reporting nasty things like RMT will certainly be very real worldy.

    There's no going back to when games weren't hand in hand with reality. Even in the past they were not, you just didn't realise it because there were a lot less rules, a lot less company hoops, and you yourself were probably younger and more naive.

    Yes, everyone wants Pantheon to be more immersive. No, that alone is not good enough of an excuse to say yes or no to a cash shop, especially if you can toggle a button that turns that cash shop off whenever you like.

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 30, 2021 11:48 AM PDT
    • 1320 posts
    July 1, 2021 9:03 AM PDT

    @BeaverBiscuit -  You consistently make the argument that money earned from cash shops is utilized to improve the game aside from cash shops. I've never personally seen any evidence of this. What I do so is that once the people who control the development (and to be clear this is very rarely the people that actually impliment the code), see the extra dollars from the cash shop and invest in a greater abundance of things in the cash shop to get more dollars. It becomes of a somewhat inevitable cycle, and it eventually leads to more and more compromises. 

    "Ok, we'll just do cosmetics."

    "Wow, we made a fair amount of money on cosmetics. You know, if we just added some weight reducing bags, that's not a big deal right? We'll do that too, but nothing that changes game mechanics."

    "Ok, the money is really rolling in now. We can't ignore this. Subs are slipping a little and we need to keep the income up. How about if we make XP potions."

    "Alright! Now we're talking! That xp potion thing was huge. Next up, new character gear sets!"

    And so on... 

    This isnt even theoretical. It's the sort of path several MMO have actually followed. The motivation is conjecture, but the outcomes are indisputable. 

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at July 1, 2021 9:04 AM PDT
    • 754 posts
    July 1, 2021 9:26 AM PDT

    Feyshtey said:

    @BeaverBiscuit -  You consistently make the argument that money earned from cash shops is utilized to improve the game aside from cash shops. I've never personally seen any evidence of this. What I do so is that once the people who control the development (and to be clear this is very rarely the people that actually impliment the code), see the extra dollars from the cash shop and invest in a greater abundance of things in the cash shop to get more dollars. It becomes of a somewhat inevitable cycle, and it eventually leads to more and more compromise

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you don't trust VR to handle their cash shop in a reasonable way why do you trust them with anything else? Do you think they don't know the profitability of a cash shop already? Would it really be a crazy new cycle-starting discovery for VR to see that their cash shop is making money? Why do you trust them to not just put one in eventually even if there isn't one at launch?

    Yes mmos in the past haven't done it right.

    If all of the mess ups of current mmos are "inevitable" like you say, what does that bode for Pantheon, beyond just a cash shop?

    Isn't one of the main selling points of Pantheon to stick to their guns and support their old style niche of players? My whole point is that if i can trust them to do that, I can trust them to have a simple, toggle supported cash shop, that they don't go crazy with. Just like how I trust them to not go crazy with quests or mounts.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at July 1, 2021 9:32 AM PDT
    • 1320 posts
    July 1, 2021 9:31 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Feyshtey said:

    @BeaverBiscuit -  You consistently make the argument that money earned from cash shops is utilized to improve the game aside from cash shops. I've never personally seen any evidence of this. What I do so is that once the people who control the development (and to be clear this is very rarely the people that actually impliment the code), see the extra dollars from the cash shop and invest in a greater abundance of things in the cash shop to get more dollars. It becomes of a somewhat inevitable cycle, and it eventually leads to more and more compromise

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you don't trust VR to handle their cash shop in a reasonable way why do you trust them with anything else? Do you think they don't know the profitability of a cash shop already? Would it really be a crazy new discovery for VR to see that their cash shop is making money? Why do you trust them to not just put one in eventually even if there isn't one at launch?

    Yes mmos in the past haven't done it right.

    If all of the ways mmos we have right now were "inevitable" like you say, what does that bode for Pantheon, beyond just a cash shop?

    Isn't one of the main selling points of Pantheon to stick to their guns and support the niche who got their opinions left out of mmos beyond EQ and ff11? Why do you not even trust them with this much?

    I trusted them with other things because they originally stated that they would not succumb to things like cash shops. Or a myriad of other things that have been backtracked. I invested with the statements from VR that they were harkening back to a day before all these parasitical systems infested the modern MMO's saturating the markets. 

    Things have changed. Statements have been withdrawn, or reworded, or "clarified". I do have less faith today that this game is one that will appeal to me than I had when I made my pledge years ago. But it doesn't mean that I need stop speaking about the things I don't want that are gradually invading this development. 

     


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at July 1, 2021 9:33 AM PDT
    • 754 posts
    July 1, 2021 9:39 AM PDT

    Feyshtey said:

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Feyshtey said:

    @BeaverBiscuit -  You consistently make the argument that money earned from cash shops is utilized to improve the game aside from cash shops. I've never personally seen any evidence of this. What I do so is that once the people who control the development (and to be clear this is very rarely the people that actually impliment the code), see the extra dollars from the cash shop and invest in a greater abundance of things in the cash shop to get more dollars. It becomes of a somewhat inevitable cycle, and it eventually leads to more and more compromise

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you don't trust VR to handle their cash shop in a reasonable way why do you trust them with anything else? Do you think they don't know the profitability of a cash shop already? Would it really be a crazy new discovery for VR to see that their cash shop is making money? Why do you trust them to not just put one in eventually even if there isn't one at launch?

    Yes mmos in the past haven't done it right.

    If all of the ways mmos we have right now were "inevitable" like you say, what does that bode for Pantheon, beyond just a cash shop?

    Isn't one of the main selling points of Pantheon to stick to their guns and support the niche who got their opinions left out of mmos beyond EQ and ff11? Why do you not even trust them with this much?

    I trusted them with other things because they originally stated that they would not succumb to things like cash shops. Or a myriad of other things that have been backtracked. I invested with the statements from VR that they were harkening back to a day before all these parasitical systems infested the modern MMO's saturating the markets. 

    Things have changed. Statements have been withdrawn, or reworded, or "clarified". I do have less faith today that this game is one that will appeal to me than I had when I made my pledge years ago. But it doesn't mean that I need stop speaking about the things I don't want that are gradually invading this development.

    I mean, I get the same feeling a lot. The way I deal with it is pretty simple.

    If VR end up being untrustworthy, they will mess up the game beyond playability, whether or not any specific thing, like mounts or cash shops, is in the game.

    So I might as well assume VR will be trustworthy, and cast the various things being considered for the game through those rose colored goggles.

    If they end up being as untrustworthy as many here say, I merely won't play the game, again, for far more reasons than just the cash shop getting out of hand.

    Of course that is easier for me to say because I had just dumped a bunch of money into EQ next and in my distrust of the world barely gave anything to Pantheon when I first discovered it. Now I'm feeling kinda good about that, but there's still the chance they are trustworthy and do know what they are doing or will at least take some of the newer style stuff out after testing.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at July 1, 2021 9:41 AM PDT
    • 2402 posts
    July 1, 2021 9:56 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Feyshtey said:

    @BeaverBiscuit -  You consistently make the argument that money earned from cash shops is utilized to improve the game aside from cash shops. I've never personally seen any evidence of this. What I do so is that once the people who control the development (and to be clear this is very rarely the people that actually impliment the code), see the extra dollars from the cash shop and invest in a greater abundance of things in the cash shop to get more dollars. It becomes of a somewhat inevitable cycle, and it eventually leads to more and more compromise

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you don't trust VR to handle their cash shop in a reasonable way why do you trust them with anything else? Do you think they don't know the profitability of a cash shop already? Would it really be a crazy new discovery for VR to see that their cash shop is making money? Why do you trust them to not just put one in eventually even if there isn't one at launch?

    Yes mmos in the past haven't done it right.

    If all of the ways mmos we have right now were "inevitable" like you say, what does that bode for Pantheon, beyond just a cash shop?

    Isn't one of the main selling points of Pantheon to stick to their guns and support the niche who got their opinions left out of mmos beyond EQ and ff11? Why do you not even trust them with this much?

    Part of doing it right is doing it like it used to be done.

    Part of doing it right is doing it like modern games have done it, but better.

    Part of doing it right is not doing what modern games have done wrong.

    Yes, I trust VR to do the 'right' things as they seem to have a real good atitude to knowing they can adopt what is right and improve or avoid what is wrong and it is, of course, up to them to choose.

    As with a lot of issues in MMORPGs, VR has some very hard and important choices to make.  On some of these important issues, we are bound to want to make our voices heard, though, not just because we think it will be interesting to discuss or that we think we might actually help VR with our ideas, but because a lot of the decisions VR has to make will relate to how their target audience feels.

    Also issues relating to things like cash shops, loot 'gambling' boxes, subscription vs free-to-play, 'live service' models, in-game microtransactions/advertising, etc. are different. They have impact not just on the gameplay but on how your players feel about the game/business/company.  They can determine what kind of players you attract and what kind of players will leave.

    Sure, maybe cash shops *can* be done without detrimental effect - if anyone can, VR can - but I'm sure VR also know that some 'bad things' cannot be fixed, mitigated or compensated for; they can only be avoided.

    • 1320 posts
    July 1, 2021 10:11 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Also issues relating to things like cash shops, loot 'gambling' boxes, subscription vs free-to-play, 'live service' models, in-game microtransactions/advertising, etc. are different. They have impact not just on the gameplay but on how your players feel about the game/business/company.  They can determine what kind of players you attract and what kind of players will leave.

    This is an important note to reinforce. 

    Even if VR can do cash shops "right", the stink of it will still exist in the nose of the potential customer. If that person, who has nothing but disdain for all the cash shops they've experienced that were done "wrong", catches the scnet of cash shop in Pantheon it very well may be enough to make them disregard the title entirely without another thought. 

    At the time I invested a clear statement had been made that no plans for cash shops existed. Had there been, I wouldn't have pledged. 

    • 2973 posts
    July 1, 2021 10:28 AM PDT

    If it ends up being something they absolutely need to do to stay afloat after launch (should subs not reach or stay above whatever threshold) then so be it. I wouldn't blame them at that point. Before then? Please no. 

    • 2402 posts
    July 1, 2021 12:53 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    If it ends up being something they absolutely need to do to stay afloat after launch (should subs not reach or stay above whatever threshold) then so be it. I wouldn't blame them at that point. Before then? Please no. 

    Except that it might lose them *more* subs... If subs fails to the point they *need* a cash shop to save them, then, sheesh, it's all over, isn't it?

    • 1268 posts
    July 2, 2021 4:47 PM PDT

    One of the good points I see being made as well is, just because other companies have done cash shops and are doing 'wrong' to the gamer, that doesn't mean everyone should just lay down and give up and accept that they are here.

    I remember about a decade back, the late 2000's and early 2010's were really bad for PC gaming. It seemed that most of the good titles were either console exclusive or built for console and ported to PC. It was a bad experience for PC players. Well, PC primary players hung in there and kept fighting and over the past several years, PC gaming has been revived. Thanks to sites like Kickstarter, there are many more PC exclusive games than there were a decade ago. We are also seeing Microsoft and Sony again embrace PC's by bringing their console games to PC and actually trying to do it right. Point is, we need to hang in there and keep fighting if we want to right what we feel is wrong.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 2, 2021 4:47 PM PDT