Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cash Shop is Being Considered

    • 107 posts
    February 3, 2021 6:09 AM PST

    I do not plain to use the cash shop but if there is one with  mount skins not mounts and other cosmeticts so be it. I could care less about player housing or any of that. I would like apperance slots like eq2 had i work hard for my gear and would like to show a nice set i have completed even if its not the best for what i am doing that moment. if no apperance slots give us chest item sets armor look than i dont want to look like a clown running around. 

    I keep seeing people talk about liking to to see the gear and know what your wearing but in EQ we could do that with weapons and sheilds a bit. Armor was cloth leather chain or plate and only changed color that was dull and left us looking like rainbow bright at times. 

     

    If they add Coin Tokens Krono  instant level ups  I am done playing that day dont care how fun the game is. 


    This post was edited by Vixx at February 3, 2021 6:11 AM PST
    • 2402 posts
    February 4, 2021 6:20 AM PST

    It's interesting some say they wouldn't want "pay-to-win", but a cash shop for cosmetics is ok.

    I would suggest that in PvE MMORPGs the 'win' is community prestige. It is the social aspect. For some it is the 'bragging rights' that come with achievement.

    I would suggest that what people see when they meet you in game - the look of your gear - is the primary way of displaying your prestige and 'bragging' of your achievements.

    Thus, cash bought cosmetics, in a PvE MMORPG, *is* pay-to-win.

    • 302 posts
    February 4, 2021 8:25 AM PST
    If cash shop bought items (weapons and armor) look better than rare names mob drop items....that is pay to win. The prestige of having have to attain gear is gone when someone can just charge thier credit card and instantly have something great looking with no effort. The community is overwhelmingly against this going by this thread and others. I am all for in home items being bought or things that aren't in everyone's face.
    • 95 posts
    February 4, 2021 8:39 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    It's interesting some say they wouldn't want "pay-to-win", but a cash shop for cosmetics is ok.

    I would suggest that in PvE MMORPGs the 'win' is community prestige. It is the social aspect. For some it is the 'bragging rights' that come with achievement.

    I would suggest that what people see when they meet you in game - the look of your gear - is the primary way of displaying your prestige and 'bragging' of your achievements.

    Thus, cash bought cosmetics, in a PvE MMORPG, *is* pay-to-win.

     

    I agree with Disposalist here.

    It's sad that we're even having to discuss a cash shop in the first place, but even a "cosmetic only" cash shop still has it's affect on the game, as Disposalist points out here. I think I've already gave my opinion on this matter, but I'll mention again that IF we can avoid any type of "cash shop," and still monetarily proceed successfully, then that's what we need to do (which VR has already mentioned that this is their game plan too). 

    If it did come down to having a "cosmetic only" cash shop, I wouldn't be distraught, but I would certainly be disappointed.

    If it turned out to become a "pay-to-win" (in the sense where the game becomes easier to progress in due to purchased-with-real-life-funds items) cash shop, then I will certainly be upset and would likely lose interest in the game.

    • 393 posts
    February 4, 2021 12:09 PM PST

    I remember loving to play Rift, then they went FTP and removed fall damage.  I soon left the game, it was a shame.

    • 1333 posts
    February 4, 2021 5:04 PM PST

    disposalist said: It's interesting some say they wouldn't want "pay-to-win", but a cash shop for cosmetics is ok.

    I would suggest that in PvE MMORPGs the 'win' is community prestige. It is the social aspect. For some it is the 'bragging rights' that come with achievement.

    I would suggest that what people see when they meet you in game - the look of your gear - is the primary way of displaying your prestige and 'bragging' of your achievements.

    Thus, cash bought cosmetics, in a PvE MMORPG, *is* pay-to-win.

    In past discussions about cosmetics (totally apart from cash shops) it has been strongly suggested by VR that IF cosmetic items are in the game, there will also be the ability, for anyone who chooses, to remove cosmetic items from their personal view by using a toggle.

    I think it a very reasonable assumption that the players who most strongly care whether your appearance is 'earned' or bought are the players most likely to use that toggle to see the true appearance of those they meet. Thus, those that care and those that don't can both have most of what they want.

     

    Again, I have no personal use or need for cosmetics or cash shops in the game at all. I just try to look for how as many people as possible can have as good an experience as possible in Pantheon, without diminishing other player's experience.

    • 2402 posts
    February 7, 2021 6:51 PM PST

    I'm not going to get into the toggle argument again. Been had too many times before. A toggle is not a compromise/solution as it might seem at first glance.  A cash shop for cosmetics *would* diminish other players' experience even with a toggle (in fact, the toggle itself would also damage the experience...)

    • 440 posts
    February 8, 2021 5:44 AM PST

    I wouldn't always agree that cosmetics should be view as play to win; if cosmetics are totally different from those that are obtained in the game world, then it is not ptw, or if there is a way to identify cosmetics easily. If the cosmetics are exactly the same as the game world items, then there is an argument to say they are ptw.

    On a slightly different tack, the fundamental problem with the argument over viewing cosmetics or worn items is that they are at polar opposites. The two arguments are roughly:

    1. If I buy something that I want to wear, then I want everyone to see it because I am role-playing my character and I dont want a toggle, as someone not viewing what I choose to wear diminishes my enjoyment of the game.
    2. I am role playing the adventure so I want to know what people are truely using in that environment. I want a toggle as I dont want to be forced to view cosmetics, otherwise I cannot see what they are actually using and it diminishes my enjoyment of the game.

    Neither is right or wrong, just different views on how the game experience should be enjoyed. As with many things mmorpg related topics, no matter which way you go, some people will feel that it goes against their views and there isn't an easy answer to this that will be welcomed by all people. 

    If at all possible I would like to see servers that allow the player to pick and choose their preferences.

     


    This post was edited by chenzeme at February 9, 2021 6:53 AM PST
    • 1 posts
    February 8, 2021 6:46 AM PST

    I've been watching this game's development for quite some time and only just now pledged (was gonna do it eventually anyway) in order to reply to this topic after having watched the video and caught news of a cash shop being considered:

    Plain and simple, I quit SotA (Richard Garriot aka Lord British's new game, Shroud of the Avatar) because of their cash shop + allowing extreme RMT.  They allowed the trade of not only cosmetics, special tokens, and more from their own stores, but also resources, items, and macro objects like player housing and towns between players.  Many things could ONLY be obtained by paying real money, sometimes in the thousands of dollars.  I'm a strong believer of keeping the game world pure and earning what you have in the game by... PLAYING THE GAME and no other way.  All status, wealth, politics, and religion of the 'real world' should stay there.  Everything in the game world should be from and within the game only.  Yes, there will always be a 'black market' for things like power level services, gold sales, etc.  Hopefully that issue can be contained.  Please don't legalize or offer RMT in any form between players or VR, not even a 'cosmetics only' cash shop.

    If the subscriptions are not enough to pay for server and staff upkeep, can we discuss options at such a time?

    Edit: PS - being able to identify equipment based on appearance of a player of a given class and evaluate their power and prowess within their chosen profession and the game as a whole will be a lost skill if cosmetics are allowed.  I don't want to see any atmosphere-breaking glowing, animated, or other garbage cluttering up the world.


    This post was edited by Xeen at February 8, 2021 6:50 AM PST
    • 7 posts
    February 8, 2021 7:59 AM PST

    I am neutral on this as long as its just cosmetics and not tokens like kronos. 

    Would I use it?  Maybe, but regardless I wouldn't judge those who did have the disposable income to get something they wanted. If there is a plethora of fun things to do and interesting gear to collect in game ....it won't really effect me at all.  I've been there for before and after the cash shops in both EQ and WOW...it didn't ruin the game for me to see someone on a store bought mount and clever RPers were able to weave their stories around getting said items without missing a beat.   

    Gear isn't always about prestige and showing off to others, a lot of the time it is just how you want your character to be regardless of how many people are looking at you.  Who am I to judge on how you want to portray your character *shrug*  Some people embrace the rainbow bard and other just need something that doesn't set off their ocd lol.  

    In the end I am here for the gameplay, core grouping values, and hopefully a return to a real importance of community. I don't see this having a major effect on any of that.  YMMV

    • 1313 posts
    February 8, 2021 9:00 AM PST

    Nexira said:

    Would I use it?  Maybe, but regardless I wouldn't judge those who did have the disposable income to get something they wanted. If there is a plethora of fun things to do and interesting gear to collect in game ....it won't really effect me at all.  I've been there for before and after the cash shops in both EQ and WOW...it didn't ruin the game for me to see someone on a store bought mount and clever RPers were able to weave their stories around getting said items without missing a beat.   

    I'm sure there are plenty of people that never felt anything at all when they saw someone with things that were purchased in a cash shop. 

    For me, when I see someone with a really cool mount, or shield, or tabard, or house, or whatever, and then I go research how I would earn that in game only to learn that you can't, it pisses me off. I'm already paying for the game. Why am I now being told that the game itself doesn't give me an avenue toward a thing that's in the game? And instead if I really want it I have to open my wallet. 

    • 7 posts
    February 8, 2021 10:34 AM PST

    Eh, I didn't say I didn't feel anything.  There are quite a few things that are really neat, I tabbed out to find out it was from the cash store and have made a decision from there.  Most of the time I don't buy it ....and it is frustrating in the moment.  In the end though, I have come to terms with the fact that I won't be able to acquire everything in the game for whatever reason(drop rates, guild ability, time restraints, cash etc).

    On the other hand, I have bought myself a few mounts/pets in wow and a few morphs/pets in eq, but it wasn't for anyone elses benefit but my own because it was what I enjoyed looking at.  No different than going to the movies and buying that overpriced popcorn/drink/candy.   Those tickets should be enough(prime time prices for a family of 4 anyone?....omg) We really don't need the extras,  I mean I can buy the exact same candy at the store for the kids and bring it in my purse...and do we really need popcorn drenched in butter oil?  No, but if we can afford it at the time and really want a treat the kids, then we splurge a bit. Difference is I can have my little pet with me for the rest of the game's life and that popcorn only lasts the first 20 mins of the movie heh.

    For me at least, as long as its only cosmetic, I will happily play the game even if I am never able to make a purchase from it. 

    Cheers!

    • 117 posts
    February 8, 2021 11:10 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    It's interesting some say they wouldn't want "pay-to-win", but a cash shop for cosmetics is ok.

    I would suggest that in PvE MMORPGs the 'win' is community prestige. It is the social aspect. For some it is the 'bragging rights' that come with achievement.

    I would suggest that what people see when they meet you in game - the look of your gear - is the primary way of displaying your prestige and 'bragging' of your achievements.

    Thus, cash bought cosmetics, in a PvE MMORPG, *is* pay-to-win.

     

    Disagree with this but it is a matter of perspective and how you personally define p2w.  For me purely cosmetic items are not p2w...they dont provide you in game advantage that allows you to more easily accomplish any action.

    • 1333 posts
    February 8, 2021 1:33 PM PST

    disposalist said:

    I'm not going to get into the toggle argument again. Been had too many times before. A toggle is not a compromise/solution as it might seem at first glance.  A cash shop for cosmetics *would* diminish other players' experience even with a toggle (in fact, the toggle itself would also damage the experience...)

    It's really funny how often people say "I don't want to start that argument again..." and then happily state their own position about 'that argument' before going on.

    If your position was right, I'd ignore it. But since you are wrong, I had to point that out before we move on in agreement to "not start that argument again"

    • 205 posts
    February 9, 2021 6:02 AM PST

    It's a very valid point that "success" in a game like Pantheon can be gauged by community prestige. A cash shop doesn't negate that as long as the items available in the cash shop are only available in the shop, and that items acquired in game are only acquired through gameplay. As long as those are true, the community will know full well who is buying from the shop, and who is not- and can react accordingly how they wish, whether it is indifference or scorn.

    • 514 posts
    February 9, 2021 7:43 AM PST

    I like my idea. If they add a cash shop make it simple. Add WoW's transmog system, so people can only make themselves look like items they have earned. Make the cost to transmog cost VR Coins and sell VR Coins in the cash shop. Low impact but makes VR extra money. Solves people not looking like things they did not earn. And its 100% cosmetic so no one needs to bother if they dont want to. 

    • 73 posts
    February 15, 2021 2:23 AM PST

    One option could be to offer more character selection screen backgrounds, made available for purchase out of game or on a side panel after creating a character.

    The original EverQuest trilogy had only two backgrounds, good (light) and evil (dark), which reflected one's race and/or class alignment. More lore-friendly options could add an external layer of fashionquest for players. A shaman shifting between to locations/points in time, the background slowly transitioning between both. An ogre warrior standing in the arena of their starting city, surrounded by fallen opponents. One player might purchase four different backgrounds for their druid main, one for each season, and switch between them as the weather outside their window changes in real life. Another player might have styled their human rogue after a swashbuckler and, to complete the look (for screenshots), decide to purchase a shipyard background. The same player might also have a dwarf brewer and choose a barroom background. Each expansion could have their own backgrounds as well. 

    Of course, those who pledged would gain access to a certain number of backgrounds by default, depending on how much they pledged. Aside from raiders who use character select as a waiting room of sorts, listening for the call to log in, most players don't spend a great deal of time choosing between their characters. This still might be worth considering though.

    • 2402 posts
    February 15, 2021 4:41 AM PST

    Jothany said:

    disposalist said:

    I'm not going to get into the toggle argument again. Been had too many times before. A toggle is not a compromise/solution as it might seem at first glance.  A cash shop for cosmetics *would* diminish other players' experience even with a toggle (in fact, the toggle itself would also damage the experience...)

    It's really funny how often people say "I don't want to start that argument again..." and then happily state their own position about 'that argument' before going on.

    If your position was right, I'd ignore it. But since you are wrong, I had to point that out before we move on in agreement to "not start that argument again"

    Lol, by "I don't want to start that argument again" I was just saying that this is my opinion, but I'm not going to debate it like I would normally in this thread, because it's been done ad nauseum in another.

    Also, as with most discussions, I'm not claiming to be objectively 'right', I'm just stating my opinion. Perhaps ironically, the few opportunities one has to be 'right' about something is when refuting someone eclaiming they are objectively 'right' and you are 'wrong'.

    • 2402 posts
    February 15, 2021 4:47 AM PST

    eunichron said:

    It's a very valid point that "success" in a game like Pantheon can be gauged by community prestige. A cash shop doesn't negate that as long as the items available in the cash shop are only available in the shop, and that items acquired in game are only acquired through gameplay. As long as those are true, the community will know full well who is buying from the shop, and who is not- and can react accordingly how they wish, whether it is indifference or scorn.

    Except that you would only know that if you study the cash shop offerings and in-game wikis daily and then cross-reference everyone's gear as you meet them...

    It's almost *worse* if cash shop looks are only available in the cash shop, not better, unless you can somehow guarantee that cash shop items will objectively look 'worse', which you can't, and even if you could, would mean they wouldn't make much cash, so would just be a waste of dev effort.

    It's a Catch 22 situation.  If the cash shop items are worth spending cash on, then they need to have worth relative to in-game items.  If they do, then the relative worth of in-game items is negatively effected.

    • 304 posts
    February 15, 2021 2:37 PM PST

    disposalist said:

    It's interesting some say they wouldn't want "pay-to-win", but a cash shop for cosmetics is ok.

    I would suggest that in PvE MMORPGs the 'win' is community prestige. It is the social aspect. For some it is the 'bragging rights' that come with achievement.

    I would suggest that what people see when they meet you in game - the look of your gear - is the primary way of displaying your prestige and 'bragging' of your achievements.

    Thus, cash bought cosmetics, in a PvE MMORPG, *is* pay-to-win.

    I remember back in the day, on another forum for another game, someone posited the same idea, saying merely that they considered store-bought cosmetics to be pay-to-win because they played the game primarily to collect cosmetics. When I agreed with them that it was a valid personal point of view, all hell broke loose and half the community attacked both me and one who first put the idea forward. It's nice to see the topic revisited, this time in a saner environment.

    Now, as then, I would certainly prefer to not see any in-game items sold in a cash shop, even if they're "only" cosmetic. However, I know VR has to balance idealism with doing what it thinks is best for the survival of the game. But I, for one, would be happy to pay a little more for a subscription if it meant I never had to see a store-bought item in game.


    This post was edited by Gyldervane at February 15, 2021 2:44 PM PST
    • 2402 posts
    February 15, 2021 3:13 PM PST

    Gyldervane said:

    disposalist said:

    It's interesting some say they wouldn't want "pay-to-win", but a cash shop for cosmetics is ok.

    I would suggest that in PvE MMORPGs the 'win' is community prestige. It is the social aspect. For some it is the 'bragging rights' that come with achievement.

    I would suggest that what people see when they meet you in game - the look of your gear - is the primary way of displaying your prestige and 'bragging' of your achievements.

    Thus, cash bought cosmetics, in a PvE MMORPG, *is* pay-to-win.

    I remember back in the day, on another forum for another game, someone posited the same idea, saying merely that they considered store-bought cosmetics to be pay-to-win because they played the game primarily to collect cosmetics. When I agreed with them that it was a valid personal point of view, all hell broke loose and half the community attacked both me and one who first put the idea forward. It's nice to see the topic revisited, this time in a saner environment.

    Now, as then, I would certainly prefer to not see any in-game items sold in a cash shop, even if they're "only" cosmetic. However, I know VR has to balance idealism with doing what it thinks is best for the survival of the game. But I, for one, would be happy to pay a little more for a subscription if it meant I never had to see a store-bought item in game.

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting that I play *primarily* for cosmetic look, or that many people do.  I would say that is very rare.  But also, I would say it's just as very rare that players care nothing for their look.

    I would suggest, though, that most players care for their look as a part, big or small, of their prestige.

    That being the case, there is certainly *some* damage to prestige and, thus, to player enjoyment from cash shop cosmetics.

    The amount of that damage depends on the player, perhaps, but when people suggest it is *un*important (to anyone), that, I think, is pretty clearly wrong.

    If look wasn't important, people wouldn't pay for cosmetics, so why bother selling them?

    If look *is* important, then selling look for cash is to the detriment of those earning it in game.

    As I said before: In a game where there is no traditional 'win' and 'winning' is generally accepted to be 'having prestige in the community' the look of your gear is certainly important. *How* important is perhaps individual, but it's certainly not as *un*important, as some might suggest.

    • 56 posts
    February 16, 2021 4:50 AM PST

    I am not a fan of cash shops but at the same time it seems they are just a reality of modern day games since active subs are not enough to keep games afloat.   It would however be nice if there were an option to have some specific servers that have cash shops disabled and or stricter rules on multiboxing and such.

    • 205 posts
    February 16, 2021 6:04 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Except that you would only know that if you study the cash shop offerings and in-game wikis daily and then cross-reference everyone's gear as you meet them...

    It's not like that stuff isn't general knowledge among players.

    I play Classic WoW, I haven't played retail WoW since the Cataclysm expansion. I have never looked at Blizzard's cash shop, but I still know what types of items are available just by talking to my friends and guildmates that I play Classic WoW with (which has no shop).

    It's almost *worse* if cash shop looks are only available in the cash shop, not better, unless you can somehow guarantee that cash shop items will objectively look 'worse',

    They don't have to objectively look worse, just different. Items sold in a cash shop could even be something as simple as a different skin for a sword to make it look old and weathered, or a dye for a piece of armor for those that care about color coordinating their gear.

    • 1313 posts
    February 16, 2021 10:30 AM PST

    Vaildez said:

    I am not a fan of cash shops but at the same time it seems they are just a reality of modern day games since active subs are not enough to keep games afloat.   It would however be nice if there were an option to have some specific servers that have cash shops disabled and or stricter rules on multiboxing and such.

    We don't know that to be universal. I'm sure there are some games that would not survive without monetization methods. For others it's entirely possible that they could remain afloat, but would not have profit margins that were as significant. 

    This is one of the reason others and myself are desperately seeking a company that cares more about the quality of the game that they do about maximizing income. I get that it's a business at the end of the day. But there are plenty of examples of companies succeeded precisely because they had integrity and chose to draw a line in the sand knowing full well that they wouldn't make as much profit. They gained respect from their core client base on that merit alone.

     

    • 514 posts
    February 16, 2021 10:46 AM PST

    Fact is, no MMO doing well today, has not done so without some kind of a cash shop. Process that thought for a moment.

    Ask, should VR wait till things are desperate before they add a cash shop? Desperate could lead to things we dont want to see. Or should they add one from the start thats fair that could help VR keep the doors open or maybe make some profit? This is a busines not a charity.