Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cash Shop is Being Considered

    • 101 posts
    January 10, 2021 10:49 AM PST

    On today's stream Cohh Carnage asked if there would be a Cash Shop for Pantheon Rise of the Fallen.  

    The response from Ben Dean was that if there was a Cash Shop it would be "cosmetic only."

     

    So we have confirmation now from the development team that a Cash Shop is being considered.  Maybe this is old news to some diehard followers, but it was certainly news for me as I thought one of the tenents of Pantheon extended to no cash shops.  The devs ARE considerng a cash shop, now I wonder how long they have been considering a cash shop?  Especially considering previous threads on cash shops have been deleted or closed by the forum moderator on the basis of speculation.  You can see an example of this here: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10174/a-cash-shop-is-now-being-considered.

     

    Now that the consideration for a Cash Shop has been confirmed by the dev team, and as recently as the Cohh Carnage stream, let's dicuss.  It's been years since we were able to discuss this topic as the forum moderator has been shutting down the threads; however, now that it is official we should be able to discuss without interference from the Mod. 

     

    What are your thoughts on a Cash Shop for Pantheon?  Was this news to you or had you already heard?  If you hadn't heard officially, did you expect it to happen anyway or were you surprised?

     

    Personally, this is news to me.  There are alot of high quality MMORPGS out there that have "cosmetic only" cash shops, but no high quality MMORPGS with no cash shops (I think FFXI is the only one?).   This was one of the ways for me that Pantheon could differentiate itself, but if they are going to sell items in a cash shop I don't see what advantages they hold over any other high quality MMORPG out there.  

    • 1898 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:02 AM PST

    I'm against it even for cosmetic only . Collection, look, should be an ingame hardwork and such.

     

    :/

    • 675 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:19 AM PST

    I caught that too... was really surprised to hear Ben say that. My guess is that VR has no plans for a Cash shop, but if they ever do get a Publisher to invest, they may have to cave in and put in a minor cash shop as part of the agreement with the Publisher. So while they don't want it, it might be one of those things they might have to compromise on. Ben is just saying that if they do need to go that route, it will only be cosmetic.

    • 1715 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:24 AM PST

    Historically, every aspect of a cash shop is negative in the context of: integrity, focus, and longevity.  If you don't care about those things, you definitely should put in a cash shop.

    The only positive aspect of a cash shop, guaranteed is: money / revenue / profit.  At the expense of every other potentially positive thing like integrity, focus, and longevity, and more.

    Also, it never, in the past 25 years that I've seen, remains cosmetic only.  Developers, Marketing, Sales, Accounting, every department in the company sees the $$$ and cannot help themselves.  It's too easy, and too successful not divert some, many, much, or all current and future development resources towards adding in-game items, objects, and similar to the cash shop, because that's where the greatest return is seen.

    They have said for many years that a cash shop is likely or possible. (From March 21, 2016, Kilsin: " There is a possibility for a cash shop/game store ...  we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come ... " )  So, not a big surprise to me and others I know following Pantheon's development.

     

    • 1333 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:45 AM PST

    Olympeus said: So we have confirmation now from the development team that a Cash Shop is being considered.

    You say that like you're sure it's on the agenda for the monthly "long term plans" board meeting.

    Which is reading a whole lot of significance into an off-the-cuff reply from a Dev while he's participating in a stream.

     

    This is a small business that does not have an over-abundance of resources. There should be no doubt that they have thought about every possibility that might keep them in business if funding gets too tight. That's not exactly the same as planning on it.

     

    DO I want to have cash shops? No.

    Would I prefer to see the game fail to release rather than have a cosmetic only cash shop? NO.

     

    If you have to make a choice, which would you choose: A cash shop for cosmetics, or they sign with a publisher that demands creative control over the game?

    I look forward to your answer.

     

     

     

     

    • 1247 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:48 AM PST

    I will not use a cash shop but I'm not going to pretend to know if they could afford to do it without it.

    My only statement on it will be if you add a cash shop with costmetics/transmogs/hide equipment/etc - please just give me the option to TURN IT OFF. I want to see in-game character equipment only. As long as I can turn it off to only see what is actually there, I won't complain about it.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 10, 2021 11:49 AM PST
    • 10 posts
    January 10, 2021 12:22 PM PST

    Today was one of the frist streams I was able to catch live in the aproximately two years ago that I pledged. I have to say that I was excited to see how far they have progressed and am anxious for the Alpha release... That said I did catch the statement that they are considering a cash shop for cosmetics only but no decision was made. 

     

    This is a discussion that I have had with my brother. Both of us have made pledges that will allow us in at the Alpha release...

     

    My brother is concerned about the look of his character to the point that he likes that idea of a cosmetic only cash shop. I on the other hand believe that if they let this tennant slip it is only a short distance to "Pay to Level" cash shops. This is the crux of the issue for me. Once a cash shop is part of the game it is not far to adding actual gear to help level, spells, ore, etc. Also, it is not far to the endless spamming because someone somewhere has figured how to make actual money from the game.

     

    @Jothany I think that you make a good point about the chance for the game to fail and it is a fair question. That said, if they give over this much control that one of thier basic tenents are being altered even slightly... Then how far down that path might they slip? As to the answer of your question, or my understanding of what you are asking "Would a cash shop for cosmetic only cause me to pull out of the game?" NO; However, as soon as anything but a cosmetic item was added (ore, spells, potions, ... ),  then they have shown thier hand and yes, I would pull out. For me it is akin to cooking frogs, you do not put them into hot water they jump out... However, if you put them into slightly warm water and slowly turn up the heat then they are cooked before they know they are in hot water. "Pay to Level" does that to too many.... They buy x becaue they cannot resist the temptation and then y, and then z and before they know it they cannot pay thier bills... Consequently, I have come to think of micro-transactions/Pay to Level shops as predatory. I would rather pay a monthly subscription and pay for each expansion (note expansion shoud not affect the current game)... To me that is upfront and seems more honest... Plus it can be budgeted.

    • 1884 posts
    January 10, 2021 12:28 PM PST

    vjek said:

    [...]

    They have said for many years that a cash shop is likely or possible. (From March 21, 2016, Kilsin: " There is a possibility for a cash shop/game store ...  we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come ... " )  So, not a big surprise to me and others I know following Pantheon's development.

     

    I think its time VR fully differentiates itself. We have Movie ratings, we have value assigned to brand names i.e. Mercedes vs Honda, Samsung vs Hotpoint etc. This is an mature game and will charge mature sub prices. if that means 30-40 a month so be it. I see Home security and Old age insurance policies being sold for the same  price of a dollar or so a day.

    How did Fergie's song "Glamorous" start?

    • 1715 posts
    January 10, 2021 12:31 PM PST

    Right there with you, Manouk, but in almost 7 years, they haven't confirmed, acknowledged, or even slightly hinted that a $30-40 monthly sub price is possible to avoid a publisher and/or cash shop.
    If it were possible, they would be open to having Best-Effort Non-Persistent Early-Access, ongoing, for anyone willing to pay that $30-40 monthly sub price, today, because it would fund development, indefinitely.  Not within scope of their current business plan, unfortunately.

    • 1333 posts
    January 10, 2021 12:50 PM PST

    FriarMonk said:

    I on the other hand believe that if they let this tennant slip it is only a short distance to "Pay to Level" cash shops.

    Thanks for the reply. First, I agree with you that if pay to win is implemented, I'd be quitting the game as well. I wouldn't find any satisfaction in accomplishment that was achieved merely thru spending money.

    You're right that it would be a change from what they said at the very start of development, but I don't really see it (cosmetic only) as a big one. Certainly not as big as giving creative control to a publisher in order to get the game to release. And as vjek pointed out above, they have actually said before "if we had to, then it would be cosmetic only". Not often, but it is not new info.

    Honestly, I've heard the "slippery slope" argument in conversations my whole life, about everything from games to economics to sex to politics to war. Unless one has evidence of a causal connection, it is a fallacious argument.

    And the frog story is actually more of an urban myth. If you put heat under a pot with frogs in it, they WILL jump out when the water gets hot. They are frogs, not idiots :)

    • 1333 posts
    January 10, 2021 12:55 PM PST

    I would also prefer $30-$40 a month as an alternative to cash shops. I think someone from VR once said they were shooting for $15/month and I was surprised by it. I was expecting more from the day I joined, just from Pantheon being a crowdfunded indie game.

    • 10 posts
    January 10, 2021 1:37 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    FriarMonk said:

    I on the other hand believe that if they let this tennant slip it is only a short distance to "Pay to Level" cash shops.

    Thanks for the reply. First, I agree with you that if pay to win is implemented, I'd be quitting the game as well. I wouldn't find any satisfaction in accomplishment that was achieved merely thru spending money.

    You're right that it would be a change from what they said at the very start of development, but I don't really see it (cosmetic only) as a big one. Certainly not as big as giving creative control to a publisher in order to get the game to release. And as vjek pointed out above, they have actually said before "if we had to, then it would be cosmetic only". Not often, but it is not new info.

    Honestly, I've heard the "slippery slope" argument in conversations my whole life, about everything from games to economics to sex to politics to war. Unless one has evidence of a causal connection, it is a fallacious argument.

    And the frog story is actually more of an urban myth. If you put heat under a pot with frogs in it, they WILL jump out when the water gets hot. They are frogs, not idiots :)

     

    @Jothany While we may not agree on the "Slippery Slope" and the "Boiling Frog" Urban Story vs. Fable... We do agree that a cosmetic only cash shop is a minor enough wait and see what happens. I believe that VR has done a lot of things right and a cosmetic only shop is not enough to change that opinion. So I am in a wait an see state of mind.

    My hope is that if they do implement the cosmetic only cash shop that they have something in place to prevent the endless spamming and that they stop there... Only their implementation and time will tell...


    This post was edited by FriarMonk at January 10, 2021 1:39 PM PST
    • 107 posts
    January 10, 2021 1:42 PM PST
    As a whole, I'd prefer NO cash shop at all. However, if one is implemented for whatever reason, it is my hope that it would be limited to cosmetic/fluff items only. And those same items are also obtainable through game play. And let's keep those items true to the nature of the game world.
    • 10 posts
    January 10, 2021 1:53 PM PST

    Like has been mentioned I think bumping the subscription fee a bit or having different levels would be a way to go... 

     

    Something like:

     

    Monthly:

    $19.99 - Game play only. The $5 difference is not enought to affect the vast majority of those that will play... And close enought to thier state goal.

    $29.99 - Game play and Feature Testing (Allows players early access to what coming down the pike) This would help both with the testing and add some for development.

    $39.99 - User advisory board to discuss next features/class/races/regions/etc to be developed...

     

    If they did something like they they may might even see more sooner than later... That is while I cannot afford the minamin of $1,000 or $100/month for a year pledge to be in pre-alpha right now... I would consider the higher 29.99 and 39.99 subscriptions in an on going bases... It would be interesting on how many out there are of the same state of mind on monthly fee...  Just a thought.

    • 1333 posts
    January 10, 2021 3:04 PM PST

    FriarMonk said: ...

    I think when the game finally releases we should meet up, go find a slippery slope to camp on and boil some frogs!

    :D

    • 114 posts
    January 10, 2021 3:09 PM PST

    For me, personally, a cash shop that has absolutely no impact on gameplay, such as cosmetics, is not an issue in general. However, one of the things I remember the most from EQ, and any other MMO that required a lot of time / dedication / luck to obtain rare items, was that ongoing want / desire / drive to play the game in order to obtain those items (particularly when you were lower level) because of their rareity, their visual appearance, and the benefit they tended to offer in terms of stats. Those items were paraded around like trophies, and the main way you did that was through their cosmetic appearance. The visual cue from those items would have prompted a million comments / messages and character inspections over the years!

    I just can't help but feel a cash shop, even one based purely around cosmetics, would destroy a lot of that desire to become higher level, and to persue those rewards at lower levels if better looking loot can be bought with RL money instantly. In addition to that, based on the very fact that, RL cash is being handed over by the player to obtain these items, it feels like there's an obligation to make them more visually impressive than what's available in-game, purely so the person handing over the money doesn't feel let down by their purchase. And, I guess, those cosmetic items need to compete with, or even surpass what's available in-game to make them an appealing prospect in terms of handing over cash for them in the first place.

    If cash shop items didn't mirror anything available in-game at all, and didn't dwarf in-game items in terms of their appearance, that would be ok, I guess. However, a shop is a slippery slope to begin with.

    • 1898 posts
    January 10, 2021 4:55 PM PST

    After watching the Stream, I do belive "considered" is quite wildfire here. Close to exact words beeing :

     

    "It's not planned but if it was to be, cosmetic only."

    • 101 posts
    January 10, 2021 5:52 PM PST

    Jothany said:

     

    DO I want to have cash shops? No.

    Would I prefer to see the game fail to release rather than have a cosmetic only cash shop? NO.

     

    If you have to make a choice, which would you choose: A cash shop for cosmetics, or they sign with a publisher that demands creative control over the game?

    I look forward to your answer. 

     

    Quite the false dillemma you present there.  Obviously the choice is not binary and so I choose option "C".  

    • 1333 posts
    January 10, 2021 6:36 PM PST

    Olympeus said:

     Quite the false dillemma you present there.  Obviously the choice is not binary and so I choose option "C".  

    You asked 3 questions of us in your OP. I answered and asked one of you. Seems reasonable to me.

    You should know that you genuinly don't need to reply to me just to tell me that you aren't going to reply to me.

    • 101 posts
    January 10, 2021 8:16 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    Olympeus said:

     Quite the false dillemma you present there.  Obviously the choice is not binary and so I choose option "C".  

    You asked 3 questions of us in your OP. I answered and asked one of you. Seems reasonable to me.

    You should know that you genuinly don't need to reply to me just to tell me that you aren't going to reply to me.

    I did respond to your question.  I would choose neither a cash shop or a publisher that demands creative control over the game. 

    You should know that I genuinely responded to your question, I hope this clears that up for you.  


    This post was edited by Olympeus at January 10, 2021 8:18 PM PST
    • 183 posts
    January 10, 2021 8:27 PM PST
    A cash shop for cosmetics only has always been in the picture. They said you'll have your adventure gear and your fashion gear. And the determining toggle will be on each person's side (to view others in their adventure gear or fashion gear).
    • 10 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:04 PM PST

    @Jothany That sounds like fun... reminds me of the regions around Innothule swamp when you put it that way ;-)

    • 155 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:17 PM PST

    Logged in to create this thread upon hearing Ben mention the cash shop on stream.  Was by far the single biggest take away of the stream (for me), and outshadowed a lot of the exciting and positive things I saw.

     

    I found the mention of a cash shop for cosmetics being considered as very disheartening. Personally for me it is on the grey line of whether I want to play the game if implemented - it's almost a deal breaker. If it was to be done, and in my opinion done poorly, I will 100% quit the game regardless of the money and energy I've put into following and supporting it.

     

    A cosmetic cash shop would have to be very very minimal and specific for me to live with it. uggg , I just hated hearing him say that... Otherwise I loved the stream , lol :) super excited

     

    Kastor said: A cash shop for cosmetics only has always been in the picture. They said you'll have your adventure gear and your fashion gear. And the determining toggle will be on each person's side (to view others in their adventure gear or fashion gear).

    I don't remember ever hearing these ideas confirmed. But if that's what it is, and I can toggle it off and never have to see any cosmetics, then I might be able to live with it.

    The question is then, would the people that pay money to look a certain way be willing to live with me not seeing them that way.

     

    Vjek said: They have said for many years that a cash shop is likely or possible. (From March 21, 2016, Kilsin: " There is a possibility for a cash shop/game store ...  we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come ... " )  So, not a big surprise to me and others I know following Pantheon's development.

    I personally would rather pay 25$+ a month and guarentee no cash shops, but I don't think that's what he was getting at.


    This post was edited by Kass at January 11, 2021 12:47 AM PST
    • 155 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:28 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    If you have to make a choice, which would you choose: A cash shop for cosmetics, or they sign with a publisher that demands creative control over the game?

    I look forward to your answer.

     

    I want to see the game succeed, while being a game that I want to play. Unfortunately the reality for me is that I quite likely will choose not to play the game if there is a cash shop of any significance.

     

    But to answer the question , I would choose cash shop on behalf of other players, but then not play either way.

     


    This post was edited by Kass at January 11, 2021 12:45 AM PST
    • 1964 posts
    January 10, 2021 11:57 PM PST

    Kass said:

    I want to see the game succeed, while being a game that I want to play. Unfortunately the reality is for me that I quite likely will choose not to play the game if there is a cash shop of any significance.

     

    But to answer the question , I would choose cash shop on behalf of other players, but then not play either way.

     

    Well said.  I agree with that.