Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cash Shop is Being Considered

    • 2 posts
    January 19, 2021 5:13 PM PST

    If they have a cash shop and a sub.. it will hurt the game.   

     

    Hard pass on cash shops.  Even cosmetic takes away in-game content and puts it behind pay walls.  Even cosmetic is pay to win.  Paying to win the cosmetics that should be earned by playing.

    • 718 posts
    January 19, 2021 5:37 PM PST

    Thanks for the reponses Ben and Kilsin :)  

    Very encouraging!

    • 46 posts
    January 19, 2021 5:46 PM PST

    "Pay to win" means little in a game that cannot be won. In an MMO "pay to win" simply means getting an advantage over players who cannot or won't spend money on in game items. Fubar said it correctly, a cash shop is "pay to win" for people who value cosmetics. Now you have people running around in game with items they didn't earn in game. Someone who is willing to grind and adventure for a sweet looking cosmetic item has to compete with people who simply purchased their items with real world money. In this case, that individual's acheivement is somewhat diminished.

    My other problem with cosmetic cash shops is that they really take away from a great way to make crafting meaningful. I've always thought that cosmetic items rightly resided in the provice of armorsmiths and weaponsmiths. The armor/weapons that they create are unlikely to compete with the top dungeon gear in stats, but cosmetics are a niche where crafters can shine.

     


    This post was edited by Ruinar at January 19, 2021 7:52 PM PST
    • 97 posts
    January 19, 2021 6:55 PM PST

    torveld said:

    I think the problem there was that they weren't in control of whether or not that decision was made. It was easy to say we don't want that in our game but then when the people who own the game expect more profit they kinda got forced into that situation. Is there a world where the team is no longer in control of such decisions and has to cave in to the owners of the game? (i dont know who owns what piece of this game or how much)

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!


    This post was edited by BenD at January 19, 2021 6:56 PM PST
    • 537 posts
    January 20, 2021 3:47 AM PST

    Good to hear Ben, stand firm with that resolve.  I am firmly against cosmetic appearence slots and transmogrification, but not against Cash Shops per se, just Cash Shops that would encourage anything transmog or cosmetic related in the open game world, and of course "Pay to Win" items such as xp pots, etc...

     

    What I would be will willing to spend extra cash for is:

    1)  Additional character slots.  (Say you start the game with only one slot, and it's $5 to unlock another up to ten slots.  That's a fair value for a permanent reward, most people would buy several additional character slots.  A very easy way to make enough money to hire several additional staff members at a minimum.  And you could sell this ahead of launch as well).

    2)  Additional bank space.  (Pretty sure GW2 did this and they made a mint.  Path of Exile certainly did.  We want to hoard things, make our banks nice and sorted.  This would be a huge money maker, and if you could create special bank tabs for crafting ingredients, even better.  Also something you could sell pre-launch as well, would probably make enough money to hire a team of artists).

    3)  All Things Housing.  (Instance the housing like EQ2, copy that system to the tee, it is the industry gold standard.  ESO generally has copied it as well.  Allow people to buy the housing instance in the cash shop as well as in game with gold.  Then go nuts making cosmetic items for the player housing, especially pets.  This is one of the primary cash shop fund raisers, and it doesn't impact the real virtual game world at all as long as you do NOT allow crafting in the instances.  Don't do that.).

    4)  Real Life Swag.  (You're already doing this to a degree, but get those cloth maps out there ala cart.  Keep the T-shirts, coffee mugs, etc... going.  Consider something like a Collector's Edition Atlas that Jared could create.  Since there won't be maps in-game, and people will be looking at websites and printing out maps for binders, would be pretty cool to have an official Atlas you could opt to order instead.  I would imagine enough people would do this if it looked cool enough as well as just for the convenience to make a decent profit).  

    5)  Digital In-game Options.  (Thinking something like a lorebook you could unlock account wide that would track and unlock as you discover and kill various monters and adventure in new areas in the world.  No real purpose other than collection and lore, but a fair amount of people would be interested in something like this.  Always fun to look back on what you've discovered and where you've been and read up on some interesting factoids.  Would be great if you could get to your lorebook in game and out, that way you could look through it on the phone while killing time as well.  Would definitely pay $5-10 for something like this, maybe up to $20 if it was very thorough).  

    6)  Character Transfers, Re-naming, Appearance.  (Can be abused, but pretty much have to offer these, just charge enough to dissuade abuse.  Just don't let people change races or classes).  

    7)  Monthly Lotto.  (Kind of a spitball idea, but where you can buy $1 tickets each month (up to whatever limit) and the team essentially raffles off a prize.  Could be real life swag from the shop, could be any of the items listed above, could be an hour of Zoom time with Joppa, could be fanfaire tickets to the next event, could even be something revisited from the kickstarter rewards like naming an NPC.  Not much downside to this concept, decent upside, and the cost outlay would mostly be minimal).  

    8)  Art.  (Technically, this could go in with the Real Life Swag, but this is probably more specialized higher cost items.  Collectors and streamers might be all over some of Jared's speed prints and concept art pieces.  If you can mass produce them to a degree, that can lower costs.  But, I'm thinking anything large enough to be framed would be pretty damn cool.  Let the market determine the price points).

    9)  Subscriptions.  (More options the better.  $20 per month.  $14.99 per month if you pay for a year.  Etc...).

    10)  Immediate Petitions.  (Think Fast Pass at Disney World.  Sometimes it might be worth $5 to have your petition jumped to the front of the line because it's so dire or you just have the cash to burn.  Not everyone will be a fan, but it does offer a way to make some additional money.  Maybe the guarantee can be a GM will get back to you within ten minutes, something like that).

     

    • 630 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:09 AM PST

    Mathir said: "What I would be will willing to spend extra cash for is:  1)  Additional character slots.  2)  Additional bank space."

    Both of these first 2 would almost certainly be catagorized as 'Pay to Win' by almost everyone out there. Even if there was an in game way to earn 'Extra Character Slots' and 'Additional Bank Space' people would consider it pay to win if you could just drop some cash and get these perks right away.

    Mathir said: " 5)  Digital In-game Options.  (Thinking something like a lorebook you could unlock account wide that would track and unlock as you discover and kill various monters and adventure in new areas in the world.  No real purpose other than collection and lore, but a fair amount of people would be interested in something like this.  Always fun to look back on what you've discovered and where you've been and read up on some interesting factoids.  Would be great if you could get to your lorebook in game and out, that way you could look through it on the phone while killing time as well.  Would definitely pay $5-10 for something like this, maybe up to $20 if it was very thorough)."

    As far as I am aware, a Lorebook as you describe it is already planned to be a standard feature for all players. It tracks all your quests and all the 'Lore' you read while in game and I believe all the conversations you have with NPC's. I'm unsure if they plan to track all the various monsters you kill, and/or specific locations you have visited, but I wouldn't be surprised if this will be trackable as well as a standard feature.

    So I highly doubt they would try and force players to pay cash in order to unlock this feature.

    Mathir said: " 7)  Monthly Lotto."

    Unfortunately this one couldn't be done without enforcing an age restriction of 18+ on playing the game, since in most countries they have these age limits on gambling. In Europe they have even made laws against having Randomized loot boxes in games. So in Europe if the player can spend real money to buy the box, it must allow you to choose which reward you get from the list of possible items instead of randomizing the reward, since they consider this gambling and since the games are not age restricted this would allow children to gamble. This would apply even if the box was earned somehow in game without using real cash, they still can't randomize the reward because the box is also purchasable with real cash.

    Now, obviously all the examples of prizes you listed could be put up for sale individually without being part of a lotto since they wouldn't then be gambling (minus the 'Pay to Win' ones of course).

    Mathir said: " 10)  Immediate Petitions."

    This too falls into the 'Pay to Win' territory. The whole concept of 'Pay to Win' is: "I get an advantage because I can afford to pay for that advantage". Being able to pay to bump your Petition to the top of the list is Textbook 'Pay to Win'.


    As for all your other ideas, I don't see a problem with them. Cosmetic Housing, Real Life Swag, Server Transfers, Re-naming (with limits) and Artwork (Real or Digital); All of these seem fine to me and not 'Pay to Win'. Subscriptions are a given of course, not sure why you felt you needed to add it to the list except for the fact that if they had a cash shop it's likely that subscriptions would be handled through the same system.

    • 2396 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:22 AM PST

    BenD said:

    torveld said:

    I think the problem there was that they weren't in control of whether or not that decision was made. It was easy to say we don't want that in our game but then when the people who own the game expect more profit they kinda got forced into that situation. Is there a world where the team is no longer in control of such decisions and has to cave in to the owners of the game? (i dont know who owns what piece of this game or how much)

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

    Excellent to hear, Ben, thankyou.

    I really hope you consider slightly highly subs, perhaps on select servers for those that don't want a cash shop.

    Well, in the first instance I really hope we just don't have/need cash shops, but you know what I mean! ;)

    • 1327 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:32 AM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Mathir said: "What I would be will willing to spend extra cash for is:  1)  Additional character slots.  2)  Additional bank space."

    Both of these first 2 would almost certainly be catagorized as 'Pay to Win' by almost everyone out there. Even if there was an in game way to earn 'Extra Character Slots' and 'Additional Bank Space' people would consider it pay to win if you could just drop some cash and get these perks right away.

    Mathir said: " 5)  Digital In-game Options.  (Thinking something like a lorebook you could unlock account wide that would track and unlock as you discover and kill various monters and adventure in new areas in the world.  No real purpose other than collection and lore, but a fair amount of people would be interested in something like this.  Always fun to look back on what you've discovered and where you've been and read up on some interesting factoids.  Would be great if you could get to your lorebook in game and out, that way you could look through it on the phone while killing time as well.  Would definitely pay $5-10 for something like this, maybe up to $20 if it was very thorough)."

    As far as I am aware, a Lorebook as you describe it is already planned to be a standard feature for all players. It tracks all your quests and all the 'Lore' you read while in game and I believe all the conversations you have with NPC's. I'm unsure if they plan to track all the various monsters you kill, and/or specific locations you have visited, but I wouldn't be surprised if this will be trackable as well as a standard feature.

    So I highly doubt they would try and force players to pay cash in order to unlock this feature.

    Mathir said: " 7)  Monthly Lotto."

    Unfortunately this one couldn't be done without enforcing an age restriction of 18+ on playing the game, since in most countries they have these age limits on gambling. In Europe they have even made laws against having Randomized loot boxes in games. So in Europe if the player can spend real money to buy the box, it must allow you to choose which reward you get from the list of possible items instead of randomizing the reward, since they consider this gambling and since the games are not age restricted this would allow children to gamble. This would apply even if the box was earned somehow in game without using real cash, they still can't randomize the reward because the box is also purchasable with real cash.

    Now, obviously all the examples of prizes you listed could be put up for sale individually without being part of a lotto since they wouldn't then be gambling (minus the 'Pay to Win' ones of course).

    Mathir said: " 10)  Immediate Petitions."

    This too falls into the 'Pay to Win' territory. The whole concept of 'Pay to Win' is: "I get an advantage because I can afford to pay for that advantage". Being able to pay to bump your Petition to the top of the list is Textbook 'Pay to Win'.


    As for all your other ideas, I don't see a problem with them. Cosmetic Housing, Real Life Swag, Server Transfers, Re-naming (with limits) and Artwork (Real or Digital); All of these seem fine to me and not 'Pay to Win'. Subscriptions are a given of course, not sure why you felt you needed to add it to the list except for the fact that if they had a cash shop it's likely that subscriptions would be handled through the same system.

    You beat me to it GWG. Was going to respond in almost exactly the same way for the same reasons.

    • 1327 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:37 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    BenD said:

    torveld said:

    I think the problem there was that they weren't in control of whether or not that decision was made. It was easy to say we don't want that in our game but then when the people who own the game expect more profit they kinda got forced into that situation. Is there a world where the team is no longer in control of such decisions and has to cave in to the owners of the game? (i dont know who owns what piece of this game or how much)

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

    Excellent to hear, Ben, thankyou.

    I really hope you consider slightly highly subs, perhaps on select servers for those that don't want a cash shop.

    Well, in the first instance I really hope we just don't have/need cash shops, but you know what I mean! ;)

    This is an interesting idea to explore.  Figure out the average amount of money per month per account a cash shop is expected to bring in then have a server without a cash shop but an increased subscription to match the total per account revenue and see how popular it is.  Everything that is on the cash shop would then be attainable through game play instead of paying cash so that no development time is wasted.

    So you will get the answer to "Can consistent bulk revenue out do whale impulse spending?"


    This post was edited by Trasak at January 20, 2021 5:39 AM PST
    • 3105 posts
    January 20, 2021 7:32 AM PST

    The concept of "pay to win" is highly amorphous with the only consistent pattern being that if someone doesn't like a feature it is called "pay to win" and if someone likes it, then it isn't.

    Historically my take on this is that traditionally "pay to win" is most often used for features that make a character more powerful and better able to defeat enemies or otherwise advance through the game.

    What is rarely called pay to win in the endless debates in the forums of many MMOs? Cosmetic outfits. Cosmetic mounts (no speed or other benefit just a different look). Housing decorations. Titles. Extra bank space although it does help a character to have more stored items. 

    What is traditionally available for purchase that is rarely even considered in these debates. Perhaps because even old-school games with no stores at all often sold them on the game website. Change of name. Change of race. Transfer between one server and another. Extra character slots. 

    I noted the comment by GWG that an extra character slot would be considered pay to win by almost everyone. I assume this was a clever tongue-in-cheek comment since this is one thing that almost no one would consider to be such.

    • 537 posts
    January 20, 2021 7:38 AM PST

    Interesting take and some good points on the lottery option GWG.  I personally don't view any of that as "Pay To Win", to me P2W is solely something that advances your character.  Having additional storage space is a quality of life improvement, nothing more.  It doesn't make you level faster or help your guild kill the raid boss.  Additional character slots?  Can't imagine how that is P2W, you can only play one character at a time.  Fast petition queue?  They are all getting heard eventually, but I can understand why that could be controversial, but not really seeing it as P2W.

    I don't have a problem allowing people with more RL money to get more QoL improvements or perks.  My personal line is anything that makes someone have a competitive advantage, such as xp pots, buying gear/spells, buying raid access, cool appearance items or spell fx, mounts, etc...  If you want to look cool, have to earn it.  If you want to be powerful, earn it.  If you want to level fast, have to spend the time.  If you want to purchase an instanced house, additional bank space, additional character slots, swag, etc...  none of that impacts me, not in RL and not in game.  VR might as well make some funding off of it so that they can release additional content that will have a positive benefit on me in game (maybe not RL if I get too sucked in).  And I did include subscription because I just wanted to float my price thoughts and that it would be part of the cash shop.

    But, I appreciate your response because this is a good discussion to determine what most of us 1)  See as P2W (actually had no idea this could be subject to differing opinions), and 2)  What most of us would be interested in spending some extra cash on (which could help VR strategize).

     

     

    • 2 posts
    January 20, 2021 8:17 AM PST

    Some of these are good ideas.  My thoughts.

     

    Mathir said:

    What I would be will willing to spend extra cash for is:

    1)  Additional character slots.  (Say you start the game with only one slot, and it's $5 to unlock another up to ten slots.  That's a fair value for a permanent reward, most people would buy several additional character slots.  A very easy way to make enough money to hire several additional staff members at a minimum.  And you could sell this ahead of launch as well).

     

    If you sub you should have max character slows.  Subscription is a premium that should include anything one can purchase in the cash shop.

    Sub or buy is a good model if done with a thoughtful hand. Similar to how DDO did some of its cash shop.

     

    2)  Additional bank space.  (Pretty sure GW2 did this and they made a mint.  Path of Exile certainly did.  We want to hoard things, make our banks nice and sorted.  This would be a huge money maker, and if you could create special bank tabs for crafting ingredients, even better.  Also something you could sell pre-launch as well, would probably make enough money to hire a team of artists).


    Max bank space should be earned in-game.  What they could do is subscription get max bank slots but you still need to earn bags in-game to fully utilize these slots.  Then nonsubscription players can opt to buy the slops and have them permanently.   The cost should be broken out so that to purchase all perks in-game that would come with a sub should equal to a 5-year subscription fee.  Roughly $900 would allow you to have everything and never pay a subscription.  Of course, one could pick and choose and not need to buy every perk.   The higher mark up on the in-demand cash shop items would need to be in place of course.  Sub should always be preferred and the most economical route.

    3)  All Things Housing.  (Instance the housing like EQ2, copy that system to the tee, it is the industry gold standard.  ESO generally has copied it as well.  Allow people to buy the housing instance in the cash shop as well as in game with gold.  Then go nuts making cosmetic items for the player housing, especially pets.  This is one of the primary cash shop fund raisers, and it doesn't impact the real virtual game world at all as long as you do NOT allow crafting in the instances.  Don't do that.).

     

    The system sounds nice but if they are selling in-game items, even cosmetics, they are taking away from items that can be earned in-game.  They are essentially stripping content from the subscriber and selling it.

    The only way around that fact is to do the same as I mentioned above.  Sub includes all capacity of the housing system. People can buy capacity in lieu of subscription at a premium. The items must come from in-game.  Give us rares to hunt for and content that we pay for with our subscription.

     

    4)  Real Life Swag.  (You're already doing this to a degree, but get those cloth maps out there ala cart.  Keep the T-shirts, coffee mugs, etc... going.  Consider something like a Collector's Edition Atlas that Jared could create.  Since there won't be maps in-game, and people will be looking at websites and printing out maps for binders, would be pretty cool to have an official Atlas you could opt to order instead.  I would imagine enough people would do this if it looked cool enough as well as just for the convenience to make a decent profit).  

     

    Real-life swag is OK to go full-on cash shop.  Is in no way Pay to Win/advance/shortcut/acquire or however one may want to define it.  Go ham!  Just do better than coffee mugs.  Cloth maps, posters, collectibles.  Blizzard does pretty well with this stuff.   You know how bad I want little 4 to 6 inch true to game 3D prints of Everquest models just for decor???  So cheap to make its eazy money.

    5)  Digital In-game Options.  (Thinking something like a lorebook you could unlock account wide that would track and unlock as you discover and kill various monters and adventure in new areas in the world.  No real purpose other than collection and lore, but a fair amount of people would be interested in something like this.  Always fun to look back on what you've discovered and where you've been and read up on some interesting factoids.  Would be great if you could get to your lorebook in game and out, that way you could look through it on the phone while killing time as well.  Would definitely pay $5-10 for something like this, maybe up to $20 if it was very thorough).  

    Again, this is content in-game then it 100% must be included with sub.  A great option to add that a nonsubscriber cash shop however.  Really good idea for that.

    6)  Character Transfers, Re-naming, Appearance.  (Can be abused, but pretty much have to offer these, just charge enough to dissuade abuse.  Just don't let people change races or classes).  

     

    Transfer.. I hope they never allow server xfers.  Too much abuse.  If they did it would have to be a naked transfer. No gear, items, or gold.   Renames OK.  These are all OK to charge a high premium for.  The higher the better, not just for profit but to make it prohibitive.   Rename $20.  Transfer $30 or such.  Appearance I would prefer to have an in-game method of acquiring.

    7)  Monthly Lotto.  (Kind of a spitball idea, but where you can buy $1 tickets each month (up to whatever limit) and the team essentially raffles off a prize.  Could be real life swag from the shop, could be any of the items listed above, could be an hour of Zoom time with Joppa, could be fanfaire tickets to the next event, could even be something revisited from the kickstarter rewards like naming an NPC.  Not much downside to this concept, decent upside, and the cost outlay would mostly be minimal).  

    I like this but it is essentially gambling.  It would be wise for any MMO to stay way from both in game gambling and real-life gambling of any kind to avoid legal issues.

    8)  Art.  (Technically, this could go in with the Real Life Swag, but this is probably more specialized higher cost items.  Collectors and streamers might be all over some of Jared's speed prints and concept art pieces.  If you can mass produce them to a degree, that can lower costs.  But, I'm thinking anything large enough to be framed would be pretty damn cool.  Let the market determine the price points).

    9)  Subscriptions.  (More options the better.  $20 per month.  $14.99 per month if you pay for a year.  Etc...).

    Bulk subscription options are always welcome.  Would love to see a lifetime at 5 years available.  Could even match it to the "nonsubscriber" cash shop.  This way people can choose to sub on and off, buy parts they want, or just buy the whole lot.

    10)  Immediate Petitions.  (Think Fast Pass at Disney World.  Sometimes it might be worth $5 to have your petition jumped to the front of the line because it's so dire or you just have the cash to burn.  Not everyone will be a fan, but it does offer a way to make some additional money.  Maybe the guarantee can be a GM will get back to you within ten minutes, something like that).


    This is a great idea.  Would be a huge moneymaker and seems to be acceptable.  Could also do some GM event hosting services for a premium.  $100 $200 and such packages.  The buyer can choose if guild only or available to the server.,  A great way for a guild to advertise or a huge ego whale to gain some recognition while providing  

     


    This post was edited by Fubar at January 20, 2021 8:19 AM PST
    • 514 posts
    January 20, 2021 9:31 AM PST

    In the end all that matters is being fair to your customers and the staff at VR have proven they are up front and honest even when it looked bad for them. I feel they have earned our trust to do their best. Also, VR pls remember you should not feel bad about wanting to earn profit as well. Games are not charity work. You all have sacrificed allot to make our dream game happen. You deserve support for that. 

    • 3274 posts
    January 20, 2021 9:50 AM PST

    BenD said:

    torveld said:

    I think the problem there was that they weren't in control of whether or not that decision was made. It was easy to say we don't want that in our game but then when the people who own the game expect more profit they kinda got forced into that situation. Is there a world where the team is no longer in control of such decisions and has to cave in to the owners of the game? (i dont know who owns what piece of this game or how much)

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

     

    Thank you Ben,  back in the early days ...those threads are probably archived ..we suggested instead of an ingame cash shop...a store where you could buy coffee cups, hoodies etc with the Pantheon logo or other artwork displayed...on them.   Even actual artwork for sale that you could hang on your wall..maybe a wall map ...bobble head figures of the Devs or bumper stickers ...things that would be outside of the game ...or even buying certain updates to the game when new content is created...such as a new zone or something.   I am totally against cash shops ingame...because sooner or later that will descend into buying kronos (ala EQ) or items that most work hard to earn,  but someone with a fat wallet can just buy because they can't be bothered to earn the item ingame the regular way.     I don't want to see gold or platinum sellers either.......every game where I spy bots and gold sellers I report them.  Those types bring the whole game down....and ruin it.       Stick to your principles VR...we will love you for that.    

    Cana

    • 117 posts
    January 20, 2021 10:14 AM PST

    As long as any cash shop item remains cosmetic only, it won't have a negative impact in my opinion.  Great that the current thought is to stick to sub based only model, but I agree that sometimes reality imposes itself and forces a different approach.  I am glad VR is firmly on the side of no P2W if a cosmetic shop does become a necessity at some point later on!

     

    Edit: I do think that anything at all sold on a cosmetic shop should be player or legacy/account bound.   It would be bad to see cosmetics become a method of obtaining gold in game.


    This post was edited by Valheru at January 20, 2021 11:30 AM PST
    • 17 posts
    January 20, 2021 11:00 AM PST

     I want to feel pride in the items I obtain in the world.  Pulling out the wallet to look "cool" feels bad man  imo.

    • 793 posts
    January 20, 2021 11:25 AM PST

    BenD said:

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

    Ben the day many of us hear of some Krono type purchase for trade around the server, and ill almost bet you lose a ton of us. Many of us had enough of the other games and the greed. EQ TLP is nothing but a horrible experience, and its All Allowed. So you see it will end before you get it off the start. Just saying, it might happen. Payment system is one thing, but trade for goods then Sell online invites outside exploits.

    • 514 posts
    January 20, 2021 11:54 AM PST

    Crazzie said:

    BenD said:

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

    Ben the day many of us hear of some Krono type purchase for trade around the server, and ill almost bet you lose a ton of us. Many of us had enough of the other games and the greed. EQ TLP is nothing but a horrible experience, and its All Allowed. So you see it will end before you get it off the start. Just saying, it might happen. Payment system is one thing, but trade for goods then Sell online invites outside exploits.

     

    How does a mount skin you can only buy in a in game cash shop invite exploits?

    • 192 posts
    January 20, 2021 12:06 PM PST

    When a person says "IF" that is not a confirmation that it will be. Your logic is flaw.  Saying "IF" means only that if they need to make more money to sustained the game they'll add it in.         I personally do not care about a cosmetic shop. It doesn't hurt the game at all. It isn't a pay to win shop.

    So people need to understand things change. Nothing lasts forever. Us old timers are being replaced by the younger generation behind us. That is the circle of lfe.  

    Now let your voice be heard. I have no issue with that. I do not agree with all the out cry going on about Ben saying "IF" and people jumping to the conclusion that some how the definition of the word "IF" changed here just because they want to speculate.

    Speculate= form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

    • 3274 posts
    January 20, 2021 1:25 PM PST

    Sometimes in these online games,  Vander the expression "slippery slope" applies.   We are just indicating that pay to win/cash shops is not something we want to see in our Pantheon.   There are other ways for the game to make money.   An exterior online shop that sells physical items such as hoodies and other keepsakes that are Pantheon related would be a way to do that.    Let's not encourage the downgrading of the game that has happened to most other games including Everquest and Everquest II.     Or the cockroaches that come to infest online games such as gold and plat sellers.

    Cana

    • 117 posts
    January 20, 2021 1:36 PM PST

    Ugh Gold and Plat sellers....I hope this is somthing that gets squashed if discovered in Pantheon.  I am sure it will be, as most of us are against it.  

    • 386 posts
    January 20, 2021 1:54 PM PST

    Instead of a "Cash Shop" as a revenue model, might as well find a reasonable way to intergrate blockchain technology now.  I referenced an article at the end of the post share some industry news.

    Risk and Reward

    If players invest a ton of time in Pantheon, They love their loot!  It would be awesome to covert, maybe even keep some items and loot, or melt it down into Enjin coin.  Pantheon takes a fee on the item, lets say VR takes 2% of all items / loot melted into ENJ coin.  Also, let's say VR forms a partnership with another gaming company and players can transfer items from Pantheon to another game.  Again VR applies a 2% fee.  I also think this is a way to expand a community.  

    This works for me because;

    VR is still using the Unity Engine, right?

    Enjin has a API/plugin for Unity

    It's another revenue channel.

    It's a way to remove items from Pantheon.

    It can be an export feature only, meaning,  the item gets melted down into ENJ, the item does not get traded into another game.  Not unless it was a strategic move, like a marketing promotion to draw people to the game.  Like a 32 slot bag when they subscribe at level 10. 

    None of this needs to take place in the game.  It will be an app on your phone.

    Japan’s first regulatory approved gaming token Enjin 

    https://invezz.com/news/2021/01/20/japans-first-regulatory-approved-gaming-token-enjin-enjsurges-71-in-a-week/


    This post was edited by Caine at January 20, 2021 3:24 PM PST
    • 27 posts
    January 20, 2021 4:43 PM PST

    Random thought.. what if there was a single server that allowed cash shop?

    • 91 posts
    January 20, 2021 6:10 PM PST

    I think it's a tough question really. I don't like costmetic gear items as I think it takes something away from items your work towards in game.

    I think a cash shop should be around RL items. Pantheon T-Shirts, Hoodies, Caps, Coffee mugs. Offer a cash shop but not for stuff in game but stuff IRL.

     

    Cheers

     ~ CaffeineInjected ~

    • 656 posts
    January 20, 2021 6:40 PM PST

    BenD said:

    ... if it came down to additional revenue or closing the doors, I think the choice is obvious....

     

    I would rather close the doors

    Cosmetics are a rewartd.   Cosmetic cash shop is P2W.  Every game promises it won't be P2W and it always becomes that.

    Total deal breaker for me