Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Cash Shop is Being Considered

    • 179 posts
    January 20, 2021 8:45 PM PST

    BenD said:

    torveld said:

    I think the problem there was that they weren't in control of whether or not that decision was made. It was easy to say we don't want that in our game but then when the people who own the game expect more profit they kinda got forced into that situation. Is there a world where the team is no longer in control of such decisions and has to cave in to the owners of the game? (i dont know who owns what piece of this game or how much)

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

     

    F yeah!  Love this response. 

    • 793 posts
    January 20, 2021 9:41 PM PST

    Nanfoodle said:

    Crazzie said:

    BenD said:

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

    Ben the day many of us hear of some Krono type purchase for trade around the server, and ill almost bet you lose a ton of us. Many of us had enough of the other games and the greed. EQ TLP is nothing but a horrible experience, and its All Allowed. So you see it will end before you get it off the start. Just saying, it might happen. Payment system is one thing, but trade for goods then Sell online invites outside exploits.

     

    How does a mount skin you can only buy in a in game cash shop invite exploits?

    Krono's i was talking about. < Edit because i know your going to ask, Exploits are not just cheats, hidden rocks you can crawl under. I am speaking about others exploiting you for krono, guilds, groups, NBG, GBN systems you name it. Its been there for a long time, and these VR guys are not stupid they know it all. > Just incase you do ask.


    This post was edited by Crazzie at January 20, 2021 9:45 PM PST
    • 514 posts
    January 21, 2021 7:39 AM PST

    Crazzie said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    Crazzie said:

    BenD said:

    We've said it before and will say it again: we have turned down offers that would have provided us full funding but required us to give up creative control. We're not interested in selling out like that. We are all in this to make the game we have been wanting for decades. So, no, we will always be in control of the decisions. It is the entire point behind the company and the game. Add to that EVERY SINGLE ONE of our investors has the same values. We simply do not partner when it is not a fit. We won't give up those core principles.

    I'm glad this discussion is taking place too. Already some really good ideas on how this sort of thing could be addressed productively and practically should we need to explore these options. Keep 'em coming!

    Ben the day many of us hear of some Krono type purchase for trade around the server, and ill almost bet you lose a ton of us. Many of us had enough of the other games and the greed. EQ TLP is nothing but a horrible experience, and its All Allowed. So you see it will end before you get it off the start. Just saying, it might happen. Payment system is one thing, but trade for goods then Sell online invites outside exploits.

     

    How does a mount skin you can only buy in a in game cash shop invite exploits?

    Krono's i was talking about. < Edit because i know your going to ask, Exploits are not just cheats, hidden rocks you can crawl under. I am speaking about others exploiting you for krono, guilds, groups, NBG, GBN systems you name it. Its been there for a long time, and these VR guys are not stupid they know it all. > Just incase you do ask.

     

    Krono is a moot point. They are only talking about a cosmetic cash shop. Make the cash shop items non-tradable and that ends that discussion. 

    • 110 posts
    January 21, 2021 7:41 AM PST

    I've disliked the idea of cash shops in the past, I've disliked them for a multitude of reasons, but it does have to be said that, I also disliked the never-ending patchwork quilt look of my characters in most MMOs I've played over the years. It felt like, as soon as you came even remotely close to finishing a set, a piece was replaced and the random item look started all over again. There was just never a time when your character looked coherent. Maybe that can be marked down as bad item design, and it's also not ideal to consider the solution to this problem to be opening your wallet, but it's kind of where we're at these days, unfortunately! I do understand the desire for visual consistency in your character, I'm very OCD from that perspective, I'm just so torn between that, and the fact that, some of my fondest memories were seeing iconic items for the first time in-game and striving to acquire them myself. Having the ability to 'look' like you've been raiding on Dragons for the past six months at level 20 because you have a heavy wallet in real life really ruins the immersion for me. It's a very difficult thing to implement correctly without either watering down the appeal of loot acquired from adventuring or bloating the cosmetic economy to the point where nothing means anything, to anyone (visually), like in WoW. For example, watching Asmongold stream WoW, farming items, obsessing over them, acquiring them and then simply putting them in his backpack, with no intention of even equipping them, let alone actually use them, is a sad state for any MMO to be in. There's just too much of everything, all of the time, and a cosmetic cash shop lends itself to moving toward that kind of scenario.

    If it were a cosmetic cash shop or no game at all, then let's be honest, there's very few that would actually choose to have no game, at all. Were that scenario to manifest itself, I'd suggest the cash shop(s) reside in physical locations within the world, rather than being an option within the user-interface, accessible all of the time. As trivial as it sounds, this approach would limit the impact on immersion for those that hate these kind of things (they can choose to not visit the physical locations), and it also makes sense logically to go to a building / vendor to purchase items, not just click a button and having them spawn from mid-air.

    • 376 posts
    January 21, 2021 7:52 AM PST

    I liked playing Rift until they came out with the cash shop and removed fall damange.  not done well.

    • 300 posts
    January 21, 2021 9:47 AM PST
    Thanks Ben. I appreciate the comments. A lot of good suggestions were brought up on this thread. When I started EQ I was in awe of the amazing looking epic weapons. It was a motivator to get one. Same with the boss mob armor drops. These players earned those items. There was a sense of pride and accomplishment. When I later earned my epic which was hard....I had that sense of pride. Most of us want the best gear to drop from boss mobs or made by master crafters. To think a person could just charge their credit card and instantly have amazing looking gear takes away from the above examples which took hard work. A toggle off cosmetic button is a must if it goes there. Cosmetic gear serves or role playing servers where cosmetic gear is unavailable should be considered IF they are a sure thing down the road.
    • 1230 posts
    January 21, 2021 2:28 PM PST

    So...  My take on this....

    *IF* a cash shop is required....  And I say if...

    They should consider a "social cash shop".  My definition of a "social cash shop" is this.  It ONLY contains things that would be used in a social setting, as opposed in an adventure, crafting, harvesting, et al setting.  So for instance, clothing that woul dhave ZERO value outside of an in-game social setting.  It could not be used to alter the appearance of any in-game items such as armor, spells, weapons, or anything.

    Here are some things that it could entail:
         *  Social clothing (robes, pants, shirts, hats, etc.)
         *  Social, decorative only, weaponry (with ZERO stats, including damage)
         *  Social pets (ZERO combat, aggro, or enhancement ability)
         *  Social spells (fireworks, music, et al that to ZERO damage and have ZERO utility outside of a social setting)
         *  Items for whatever form of in-game housing takes place

    Basically, this stuf would be "useful" to the roleplayers and semi-roleplayers, and people who just want to have fun, but have zero utility outside of a social setting.

     

    Thoughts on this sort of offerings in a "cash shop" *IF* one is required?

    • 2894 posts
    January 21, 2021 2:37 PM PST

    Again, it really shouldn't be a requirement that one exists. If it somehow were then I would imagine the player base never turned up and a cash shop wouldn't likely save it at that point anyway. Subs should more than fund the game. 

    • 289 posts
    January 21, 2021 2:54 PM PST

    Late to the party but...

    I've seen a ton of cash shops in MMOs and every single one was bad with one exception: EQ2.  The cash shop in that game used currency you could buy online and also accumulate for free just by being a subscriber.  The items sold included appearance gear, player housing materials, etc., as well as experience potions, e.g. +10% for an hour, name change tickets, and even monthly subscription time.  The monthly sub items could even be traded in-game.  But nothing was sold that gave anyone a competitive advantage over anyone else.  To me, the EQ2 shop was an example, the only one I know of, of how to do cash shops correctly.

    Black Desert's cash shop sells a lot of questionable things. They even sell a "cosmetic" outfit that is a ghillie suit.  If you're not familiar with that it basically makes you look like a bush.  Because BD is a PvP game you might imagine how much of an advantage that could give you for the low, low price of ~$30.  Not all cosmetic gear is a good idea in a cash shop.

    I will play PRotF with or without a cash shop as long as it doesn't turn into P2W.  I don't really care how others prefer to experience the game.  It doesn't affect me in the least.  But I will say that $15/mo is way too cheap.  Simply keeping up with inflation it should be closer to $25/mo and these days there are even more expenses involved. $30-40 seems far more tenable to me, for VR's sake, and still reasonable.

    • 181 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:05 PM PST

    That live stream When Mr Ben Said about "Cosmetic" being discuss only to invoke or gauge how many are for / against the idea. not that it matter. For them to be even be discussing it lets me know "Yes cosmetic will be part of Pantheon" just destroyed all thier pass credit about Pathen not being cash shop. But hey its 2021 once you build enough member who care about those that are against it from day one "it business". C'mon cosmetic defender im ready to be burn!

     

    Im disapoint that its even being considered. Cash shop "cosmetic only no stats" ive heard them all, looks like this gonna be another cookie cutter mmo just with a bit of old school horizonal hard grind.

    mount $15.99

    cosmetic shirt $2.99

    cosmetic sword $5.99

    What???? you dont want to pay!!! Now grind week, months peasant!! If you want it free!

     

     

    • 1184 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:24 PM PST

    BenD said:

    In the brief moments it has come up, some have suggested that if we went that route, there be a toggle to switch off purchased cosmetics so you wouldn’t see any of them show up on anyone in game.

    Thank you. Also, please include "hiding" items in that toggle. Some MMO's allow players to hide items. I think that type of change should fall into the 'cosmetic shop' level of control to allow us to disable it and show the real thing. Again, thanks.

    pendragen said:

    Random thought.. what if there was a single server that allowed cash shop?

    It could be more than one server though -some do, some don't. The realty is, if players want to spend money like that they will use the servers that have cash shop. If they don't, they will be on the other servers.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 21, 2021 3:30 PM PST
    • 67 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:37 PM PST

    This is a niche game. It's never going to have WoW subs. You guys should thank the people who are going to spend money on the cash shop, it's whats going to keep this game going.

    The guy above who mentioned EQ2 housing was spot on. It was/is the gold standard. If you are worried that would kill crafting, it didnt. You still had to be a high level carpenter or know someone who was to get some of the best housing items. Most of what was purchased in the store were building items(walls, pillars ETC) for 10 cents each. I personally bought a lot of these for our guild hall.

    • 514 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:43 PM PST

    Kalok said:

    So...  My take on this....

    *IF* a cash shop is required....  And I say if...

    They should consider a "social cash shop".  My definition of a "social cash shop" is this.  It ONLY contains things that would be used in a social setting, as opposed in an adventure, crafting, harvesting, et al setting.  So for instance, clothing that woul dhave ZERO value outside of an in-game social setting.  It could not be used to alter the appearance of any in-game items such as armor, spells, weapons, or anything.

    Here are some things that it could entail:
         *  Social clothing (robes, pants, shirts, hats, etc.)
         *  Social, decorative only, weaponry (with ZERO stats, including damage)
         *  Social pets (ZERO combat, aggro, or enhancement ability)
         *  Social spells (fireworks, music, et al that to ZERO damage and have ZERO utility outside of a social setting)
         *  Items for whatever form of in-game housing takes place

    Basically, this stuf would be "useful" to the roleplayers and semi-roleplayers, and people who just want to have fun, but have zero utility outside of a social setting.

     

    Thoughts on this sort of offerings in a "cash shop" *IF* one is required?

     

    Nice, emotes could be added to that as well but there also should be ones you can earn in game as well but the cash shops ones should be also highly desired and awesome. 

    • 192 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:44 PM PST

    AbsoluteTerror said:For them to be even be discussing it lets me know "Yes cosmetic will be part of Pantheon"

    The fact that cosmetics are included in all but one of the pledge tiers didn't clue you in?

    • 514 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:46 PM PST

    AbsoluteTerror said:

    That live stream When Mr Ben Said about "Cosmetic" being discuss only to invoke or gauge how many are for / against the idea. not that it matter. For them to be even be discussing it lets me know "Yes cosmetic will be part of Pantheon" just destroyed all thier pass credit about Pathen not being cash shop. But hey its 2021 once you build enough member who care about those that are against it from day one "it business". C'mon cosmetic defender im ready to be burn!

     

    Im disapoint that its even being considered. Cash shop "cosmetic only no stats" ive heard them all, looks like this gonna be another cookie cutter mmo just with a bit of old school horizonal hard grind.

    mount $15.99

    cosmetic shirt $2.99

    cosmetic sword $5.99

    What???? you dont want to pay!!! Now grind week, months peasant!! If you want it free!

     

     

     

    Its been stated very clearly that a cosmetic shop is an "If" they need the funds to keep the game going. Its not even something they are focused on right now. It was a question asked in a stream and an offhand answer was given. Its not even being considered right now as something that will be added. We as fans are talking about If, Maybes and What Ifs. 

    • 115 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:47 PM PST

    While I have no objection to a cosmetic only shop, Ben has stated on more than one occasion that the current plan is to stay sub based and that they would only include a cash shop if they felt it to be necessary.    This is obviously a divisive issue for many and we should try to refrain from statements that are absolutes.

    • 2894 posts
    January 21, 2021 3:53 PM PST

    beautifully said:

    This is a niche game. It's never going to have WoW subs. You guys should thank the people who are going to spend money on the cash shop, it's whats going to keep this game going.

    You don't need anywhere near WoW numbers for a $15/month sub to be profitable. Even if they only gained 20% of the earnings from 100k players at $15 a month ($1.5 million) it would be $300k. It's such a low breakpoint when there are billions of gamers these days, and if it somehow doesn't meet even this small number then even a cash shop won't save it. 

    • 514 posts
    January 21, 2021 4:17 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    beautifully said:

    This is a niche game. It's never going to have WoW subs. You guys should thank the people who are going to spend money on the cash shop, it's whats going to keep this game going.

    You don't need anywhere near WoW numbers for a $15/month sub to be profitable. Even if they only gained 20% of the earnings from 100k players at $15 a month ($1.5 million) it would be $300k. It's such a low breakpoint when there are billions of gamers these days, and if it somehow doesn't meet even this small number then even a cash shop won't save it. 

    You would think, but its roumored that Blizzard makes more money from their cash shop then they do from subs. I knew MMOs would never be the same when WoW put their first cosmetic item for sale on their cash shop. The mount sold for $25 bucks and on the first weekend, Blizzard made $25'000'000. Every game company took notice and thats the reason almost every MMO has a cash shop today. Pantheon could make allot of content and hire allot of staff if they added a cash shop but their stand is still "If" they have no other option. We gamers owe VR more then many realize for trying to do this without a cash shop in this market.  


    This post was edited by Nanfoodle at January 21, 2021 4:21 PM PST
    • 209 posts
    January 21, 2021 4:25 PM PST

    beautifully said:

    This is a niche game. It's never going to have WoW subs. You guys should thank the people who are going to spend money on the cash shop, it's whats going to keep this game going.

     

    If this is a niche game, it should be able to survive from a niche playerbase. Let's be honest, they won't *need* to implement a cash shop. It's to appease investors, achieve a  desired ROI and add more profit. Let's just call it what it is. Nothing wrong with that. A business's sole purpose is usually to make money..Just sucks no one would choose to have a shop if given the option.

    Also, i saw this comment on reddit, and personally think it's a good arguement against a cosmetic shop. 

    "Cosmetic only is irrelevant as cosmetics are almost always the end game and what everyone ultimately seeks."


    This post was edited by WarKnight at January 21, 2021 4:47 PM PST
    • 209 posts
    January 21, 2021 5:19 PM PST

    Brainstorming: 

    levels 1-10:free

    levels 11-30: $14.99/month

    levels 31-50: $19.99/month

    Obviously, there would need to be a monthly cap as the level cap rises. Also, could create a bias in the dev team making levels 1-30 super easy.

     

    Trying to add something productive to the conversation. Any other ideas? 

     

     

     

    • 1180 posts
    January 21, 2021 6:07 PM PST

    Valheru said:

    While I have no objection to a cosmetic only shop, Ben has stated on more than one occasion that the current plan is to stay sub based and that they would only include a cash shop if they felt it to be necessary.    This is obviously a divisive issue for many and we should try to refrain from statements that are absolutes.

    This should be sticked at the top of the thread.

    • 1180 posts
    January 21, 2021 6:56 PM PST

    A restaurant is a very simple concept. You make food and sell it to people who come, pay, and eat. Restaurants have existed for thousands of years. The oldest, still-in-business restaurant on Earth is 296 years old. You would think that by NOW we would have learned how much it costs to run SUCH a simple and predictable business. You would think that anyone could just look at the records, look at the variables of what a new restaurant intends to sell, and figure out what it SHOULD cost for that business to maintain and prosper. But you would be wrong.

    60% fail and close in their first year. 80% in the first 5. Simple businesses with simple products. (Unlike an MMO)

    As it turns out, predicting the future of a business startup is actually HARD. Who woulda' thunk?

     

    All of which is my reply to the various posters here who keep stating with absolute certainty how much it SHOULD cost for Pantheon to survive and prosper. How they SHOULD be just fine with only subs. How they won't NEED a cash shop -unless they're greedy.

     

    (Anyone who wants to impress me with their ability to precisely predict the future can just PM me the winning numbers to the Mega-millions Lottery drawing tomorrow. That'll sure prove me wrong and I promise to invest a big chunk of it in VR.)

    • 518 posts
    January 21, 2021 9:04 PM PST

    I would prefer varying subscription rates with different options; character slots, bank slots, mount slots, playable hours (Subscriber levels) ect.. ,but it’s not going to bother me if they added a full blown cash shop with xp bonus elixirs, crafting supplies, gold, pets, ect because sales of that nature are going to happen anyway on third party sites with buying and selling accounts, Gold ect.. and I’d rather VR have that money instead.

    It’s better to have whales in the game that let me play, than have no game to play. So I’m fine with what ever direction VR takes on this.

    • 514 posts
    January 22, 2021 9:55 AM PST

    New Idea: In WoW you can pay in game gold to change your items to look like other items you have earned. Pantheons cash shop could be it cost tokens to change your look to items you have earned in the past. So say 100 tokens cost $10 bucks and it costs 5 tokens to change your look. This means items still tell a story of where you have been and there would be no one looking cooler then what they have earned. This also means people could tailor their look to how they want. This would also be great for RPers. 

    • 166 posts
    January 22, 2021 1:15 PM PST
    $25-$50 a month servers with no cash shop and $15 a month with cash shops