fazool said:Hear, hear!
This is a great OP post and I agree with every thing said.
I bristle when other people say "Quailty of Life" or "convenience".
The fact is, I do not find instant travel a good quality. For me, I find the journey as rewarding as the destination. So someone else's quality-of-life is not mine, and as the OP said, the entire genre is currently saturated with games that play that way.
I remember our family guild broke into PoFear and wiped. Everyone worked all night to get back in and recover corpses. Our guild leader died twleve (!) times, some folks had to go re-level. It was terrible and awesome! That social and community effort is something I carry with me (in Real Life) as a memory today, almost two decades later.
You know what I don't remember? Rezzing wherever I want, leaving my corpse to rot, simply recovering instantly and instant traveling to where to kill some mobs. Because *THAT* isn't worth remembering!!!!!!
Have to agree with you Fazool, I haven't made any worthwhile memories in games like Rift or Wow..the best I've done in those games is sleep walk over a cliff or into a body of water and drowned my character from too much repetitive play.
My brain refused to cooperate any more, nothing was keeping me awake and alert. Now on the other hand..walking through the common lands you had to watch out for high level mobs, coming to eat you or how about the undead in Kithicor forest, where the only way to get to your destination (halfling area I think it was) was to hug the zone wall, and hope to heck the undead don't see you. Corpse runs in Plane of Fear...all kinds of danger that made you strategize to stay alive. Those memories are basically from a couple of decades ago. They are good memories, memories where I had to survive, death was "real". :) And I want more of that...not walking two steps to a quest giver with a ! over its head and getting a reward for doing that so simple action. This isn't kindergarten. :)
Cana
Sometimes the old school stuff is used as a litmus test. If you make an argument against any of the hundreds of features that describe EQ, then you will have someone come around and say "go play another MMO". You don't have to enjoy 100% of the features in EQ to have loved EQ.
The "core features of EQ" is different set depending on your personal playstyle and preferences. That is a result of one of the greatest things about EQ - there were so many ways to *enjoy* the game! If you were a hardcore raider in EQ, then you might feel that instanced raiding would destroy the heart and soul of Pantheon. If you adored ECT trading, then auctionhouses might seem like heartless robots have taken over Terminus.
I loved EQ like no other game.
I hated that I felt obliged to stay up through the night getting my corpse back for fear of my gear rotting and have no good memories associated with corpse runs.
Many people will feel that corpse rots are 100% essential to the "old school MMO" experience.
I don't see corpse rotting as a core feature of what Pantheon should be because of how I play and how I get enjoyment out of gaming. If they thought about it, I'm sure the majority of people would be able to come up with one feature they didn't like so much about EQ. You shouldn't have to be faced with "go play WoW" as a response if you are to voice a rationed dissent to that feature.
To be honest, if you want the game to be truly challenging, your gear should go with you after you died, now I know people are saying but that make dying meaningless, but it really doesn't if the exp loss is truly real it will make you want to rez your body, but if the items stay on your corpse, their has to be a way to get your body back, either it be corpse summoning, rogue sneak to get it, monks fd dragging, something has to work to get your corpse back, but if all you lose is exp but you keep your items, they could make it to where fding across a zone could be impossible, sneaking past certain targets does not work to them as they will see you anyway, and there could simply be no corpse summoning, but this is just me, willing to have something like getting your items back to have a truly challenging game seems like a fair trade off to me, but maybe that's just me.
Or have it to where the items stay on the corpse but it takes more than one spellperson to get your corpse back, becuase to be honest dying to a group of mobs and one preson can get everyone's body back almost flawlessly doesn't sound hard to me at all, but this is just me thinking out loud againp
Ainadak said:Sometimes the old school stuff is used as a litmus test. If you make an argument against any of the hundreds of features that describe EQ, then you will have someone come around and say "go play another MMO". You don't have to enjoy 100% of the features in EQ to have loved EQ.
The "core features of EQ" is different set depending on your personal playstyle and preferences. That is a result of one of the greatest things about EQ - there were so many ways to *enjoy* the game! If you were a hardcore raider in EQ, then you might feel that instanced raiding would destroy the heart and soul of Pantheon. If you adored ECT trading, then auctionhouses might seem like heartless robots have taken over Terminus.
I loved EQ like no other game.
I hated that I felt obliged to stay up through the night getting my corpse back for fear of my gear rotting and have no good memories associated with corpse runs.
Many people will feel that corpse rots are 100% essential to the "old school MMO" experience.I don't see corpse rotting as a core feature of what Pantheon should be because of how I play and how I get enjoyment out of gaming. If they thought about it, I'm sure the majority of people would be able to come up with one feature they didn't like so much about EQ. You shouldn't have to be faced with "go play WoW" as a response if you are to voice a rationed dissent to that feature.
But WoW/EQ-Live and all their mechanisms dominate the market. For those of us who want something different, what are our options? Oh, pretty much nothing at the moment lol. That's why Pantheon should be unique and very different. More diversity, less monopoly. What's narrow in scope is not the vision itself, rather it's what is actually available to all gamers right now. It's just the way it is at the moment.
It seems to me that people often associate time-sink with being hardcore and challenging. I'd much rather play a game that is hardcore because it requires skill, coordination, and teamwork. I'm all for old-school combat that keeps my on my toes and I really love the slower leveling pace that games like EQ and even D&D bring. However if a game is artifically increasing challenge by adding excessive time-sinks, thats not fun. This tends to be how I decide for or against any game system.
Bring on a large world that requires travelling without ports. But it better be fun running across the world. /Auto Follow for 30 minutes while I watch the office is not fun and is not challenging.
Bring on corpse runs but the challenge should be in fighting your way back to your corpse, not running for an hour because your not bound next to the dungeon.
Bring on face to face trading but give me a way to find buyers/sellers without having to sit and yell for 8 hours once I finally get that rare drop in a challenging dungeon.
I love gaming but gaming has to compete with other aspects of our life for time. I'd love to spend 40 hours a week playinng Pantheon while being challenged and making friends. I don't want to spend 20 of 40 hours invested in time-sinks that do not advance my character or my social network.
I did not read the whole post (shame on me, but it is really a lot of text), but some of the stuff I read concerns me. I try to keep it simple:
- Not everything EQ did was good. Also, not everything WOW did was bad.
- Telling people to play another game because they don't like features like EC-Tunnel will remove valuable input from the discussion, that can lead to the best solution on the market so far. Same for other discussions.
- We have to find the thin lines between challenge and quality of life.
There are so many things that i loved and hated at the same time. I loved the challenge of fighting deep into a dungeon, but I hated situations where this lead to collisions with real life (because of corpse runs till 1am and having to work the next day). If there is a solution in between, lets find it by discussing it here ... Same for other solutions. Just don't tell people to play something else if they did not like something in EQ ;)
Matrulak - I wouldn't have a problem with someone telling me that what myself and others are looking for exists in other games and for me to try that. The problem, though, is it doesn't :)
@Syrif For all of the other people that - as a whole - does not exist as well. Sending people to other games because of one feature they dont like is not the correct solution. I am sure Pantheon will have at least one feature that you don't like, and that you will find in another game. I will not tell you "play that game" ;) Discussion is a good thing, but that sentence will shut down a discussion too often.
Matru - I get what you are saying. What I'm getting at isn't one feature though. It's a whole lot larger than that in depth, challenge, and vision. I suppose what I meant is that we need more mmorpgs available than what is monopolizing the market. A game would have to be different from those to achieve that. :)
@Syrif Thats alright! Actually I agree that there should be more different MMORPGs for multiple audiences instead of one that fulfills nobodies needs. That is something Brad has mentioned a long time ago. He wanted to make a game for a specific audience, and fulfill their needs as much as possible. However: I will still play this game if there is a dumbed down trading mechanism ;) As long as there is still enough challenge.
BTW: Apart from everything else, a challenging battle system is most important to me. Things like traveling or trading are really secondary in my opinion. I loved Vanguard, battles were challenging and fun, but traveling was pretty easy. I still loved it.
Munk said:It seems to me that people often associate time-sink with being hardcore and challenging. I'd much rather play a game that is hardcore because it requires skill, coordination, and teamwork. I'm all for old-school combat that keeps my on my toes and I really love the slower leveling pace that games like EQ and even D&D bring. However if a game is artifically increasing challenge by adding excessive time-sinks, thats not fun. This tends to be how I decide for or against any game system.
Bring on a large world that requires travelling without ports. But it better be fun running across the world. /Auto Follow for 30 minutes while I watch the office is not fun and is not challenging.
Bring on corpse runs but the challenge should be in fighting your way back to your corpse, not running for an hour because your not bound next to the dungeon.
Bring on face to face trading but give me a way to find buyers/sellers without having to sit and yell for 8 hours once I finally get that rare drop in a challenging dungeon.
I love gaming but gaming has to compete with other aspects of our life for time. I'd love to spend 40 hours a week playinng Pantheon while being challenged and making friends. I don't want to spend 20 of 40 hours invested in time-sinks that do not advance my character or my social network.
While I agree with your sentiment, I believe we have different views on how a MMO could challenge someone. There are combat systems in certain games that are more involved than others, but ultimately, you are performing the same skills for hundreds of hours of gameplay... do you really think challenge is still there after playing a class so long? I feel that type of challenge becomes trivial after a while.
For me, challenge in an MMO comes from persistence and endurance, not quitting on some goal that takes a significant amount of time... completing lengthy quests that may seem tedious while you are doing them, spending 2 hours leveling only to die and lose all that exp but still logging in the following day to try again, running to a certain zone for 30 minutes only to be killed and have to make the trip all over again, killing a raid boss 5 times and still not getting the drop you have been wanting. It is a test of mental fortitude... "Is it worth it to try again?" For many people that answer is no but for many others, like me, heck yeah I'll try again and again and again. That is the type of challenge I am looking for in an MMO. Regardless of how challenging any combat system can be the timesink is always going to be required to separate the hardcore from the casual.
I do agree with you on selling items. Some sort of market where you can post/search would be nice to have.
Munk said:It seems to me that people often associate time-sink with being hardcore and challenging. I'd much rather play a game that is hardcore because it requires skill, coordination, and teamwork. I'm all for old-school combat that keeps my on my toes and I really love the slower leveling pace that games like EQ and even D&D bring. However if a game is artifically increasing challenge by adding excessive time-sinks, thats not fun. This tends to be how I decide for or against any game system.
Yes, this is what I've been trying to say!
Some amount of time-sink is fine, of course - and expected in these kinds of games - but challenge from time should not replace challenge from skill and teamwork.
Naunet said:Munk said:It seems to me that people often associate time-sink with being hardcore and challenging. I'd much rather play a game that is hardcore because it requires skill, coordination, and teamwork. I'm all for old-school combat that keeps my on my toes and I really love the slower leveling pace that games like EQ and even D&D bring. However if a game is artifically increasing challenge by adding excessive time-sinks, thats not fun. This tends to be how I decide for or against any game system.Yes, this is what I've been trying to say!
Some amount of time-sink is fine, of course - and expected in these kinds of games - but challenge from time should not replace challenge from skill and teamwork.
It doesn't matter what degree of time sink exist. Hardcore will do it faster regardless of whether it takes them hours, days, weeks or months. They will do it first. Always.
Timesinks aren't necessarily reserved for only the "hardcore". It's not about catering to that crowd. It's about making rewards meaningful. A hard core player might do a long quest in a week or two, whereas it might take a casual player a month or two. It's challenging for both, but the high play time player will always get it done first simply because they play a lot more. There is no designing around this. It's just a fact of life in MMO's.
I am all about challenge too. The more interesting / challenging it is, the better, but that doesn't mean I think I should be able to do 15 minutes of challenging content and get a bis item either. That's an extreme example, I know. The tricky part is finding a balance where a more casual player can still find ways to progress (albeit longer) without your more hardcore players getting bored in the first month.
Parascol said:It doesn't matter what degree of time sink exist. Hardcore will do it faster regardless of whether it takes them hours, days, weeks or months. They will do it first. Always.
I realize that. There's always going to be people who plow through a game's content as quickly as possible, no matter how much devs try to artificially block/extend the time it takes. They'll then sit there and complain about how this game has nothing to do - at least in my experience. XD Those people aren't worth listening to.
My only point was that I don't want something to be "challenging" purely because it takes a long time to do - that's just boring.
Naunet said:I realize that. There's always going to be people who plow through a game's content as quickly as possible, no matter how much devs try to artificially block/extend the time it takes. They'll then sit there and complain about how this game has nothing to do - at least in my experience. XD Those people aren't worth listening to.
You are right about some people always burning through content. In the older MMOs that was still an issue but I think some of the QoL enhancements of recent games have fed into that issue and actually made it worse.
For example, dungeon finders allow those people to constantly level because they are able to join players across all servers instantly.There is potentially zero downtime for them if they choose to keep going. In a game like Pantheon those players that want to speed through every thing will be limited(to an extent) on how quickly they can keep progressing because they need to be able to find people to complete the content with. I dont know how that will ultimately shake out, but I think it is reasonable to think that Pantheon's group requirments will help pace the entire server.
Naunet said:Parascol said:It doesn't matter what degree of time sink exist. Hardcore will do it faster regardless of whether it takes them hours, days, weeks or months. They will do it first. Always.I realize that. There's always going to be people who plow through a game's content as quickly as possible, no matter how much devs try to artificially block/extend the time it takes. They'll then sit there and complain about how this game has nothing to do - at least in my experience. XD Those people aren't worth listening to.
My only point was that I don't want something to be "challenging" purely because it takes a long time to do - that's just boring.
If something like a quest consisted of a series of challenging events, that also resulted in a lot of time spent carrying out each step, that would be okay? That's basically what I expect. They don't want senseless tedium for the sake of killing time only.
Parascol said:If something like a quest consisted of a series of challenging events, that also resulted in a lot of time spent carrying out each step, that would be okay? That's basically what I expect. They don't want senseless tedium for the sake of killing time only.
Yeah, for sure. I love that kind of quest! I just don't like it when the entire challenge is just that something is long and tedious - think, like, those quests that require you to collect a certain number of an item that has a low drop rate off of a type of regular, open world mob, so you end up just sitting there farming that one type of monster that has no notable mechanics or challenge to it for hours. (This is, incidentally, why I dislike just grinding mobs for XP. I prefer my XP to come from fun quests or running dungeons.)
Naunet said:Parascol said:If something like a quest consisted of a series of challenging events, that also resulted in a lot of time spent carrying out each step, that would be okay? That's basically what I expect. They don't want senseless tedium for the sake of killing time only.Yeah, for sure. I love that kind of quest! I just don't like it when the entire challenge is just that something is long and tedious - think, like, those quests that require you to collect a certain number of an item that has a low drop rate off of a type of regular, open world mob, so you end up just sitting there farming that one type of monster that has no notable mechanics or challenge to it for hours. (This is, incidentally, why I dislike just grinding mobs for XP. I prefer my XP to come from fun quests or running dungeons.)
I think most would agree with that. I'm not sure how much of that to expect in Pantheon though. Until they get all the environment acclimiation systems, traps, perception, etc in place, it's really hard to predict how dungeons will work when it's being shared by many. I half expect camping to be at least part of the experience, but maybe not.
Parascol said:If you believe guilds wont run into each other anyway (which I actually disagree with), then what does it matter? Why revamp the current design? What is the benefit of having it instanced if all guilds can raid on their own anyway? What is the advantage?
Because there's 3 options if you don't instance:
1) openly constesed mobs (like eq1) with no lockouts which will in most cases create a negative experience for anyone that isn't guild #1.
2) create a basic lockout system that in most cases is easily exploitable (you can read any of my previous posts in the raid threads regarding this).
3) create an advanced lockout system that cannot be exploited but will all but eliminate the need for open world raid competition...which you're better off with instances anyways.
I respect that you disagree regarding guilds constesting each other... but I just don't see how. In 10 years of raiding eq i never once (outside the TLPs) had a guild show up to where we were raiding.
Porygon said:Parascol said:If you believe guilds wont run into each other anyway (which I actually disagree with), then what does it matter? Why revamp the current design? What is the benefit of having it instanced if all guilds can raid on their own anyway? What is the advantage?
Because there's 3 options if you don't instance:
1) openly constesed mobs (like eq1) with no lockouts which will in most cases create a negative experience for anyone that isn't guild #1.
2) create a basic lockout system that in most cases is easily exploitable (you can read any of my previous posts in the raid threads regarding this).
3) create an advanced lockout system that cannot be exploited but will all but eliminate the need for open world raid competition...which you're better off with instances anyways.
I respect that you disagree regarding guilds constesting each other... but I just don't see how. In 10 years of raiding eq i never once (outside the TLPs) had a guild show up to where we were raiding.
Well, I am not sure why your experience was different than mine, but we ran into other guilds constantly. I could point you to my old Erollisi Marr community forums and show you the hundreds of pages of flaming that ensued as a result of open world contested mobs.
All I know is that they said no instancing. So rather than try to convince us (and ultimately VR) to reinvent the wheel entirely, it might be more productive to consider the implications of open world challenges and how to overcome those. I'm sure there are lots of ways to incorporate interesting mechanics into an open world design. The contestation, raid size, raid mechanics, etc, can all be solved for on some level in an open world design.
But at the end of the day, they have said no instancing. If you want to waste energy trying to convince the world that it's the wrong decision, then I guess that's your right.
Edit: And by the way, there's a reason why you saw this on TLP. Based on these open-world design decisions, I would expect TLP to be a closer representation to what this game will be like at launch.
This is a copy/paste from another thread that doesn't get a lot of views, so I thought I would repost it here where it is more appropriate in context of discussion.
After watching the latest Q&A, I have a comment regarding the lack of reagents/consumables/coin encumbrance in that discussion (inc. arrows, food, etc); it's something I care deeply for. I can see an equal amount of people saying that having real darkness or non-shared banks to be equally tedious as the above items. So where is the line drawn other than just by someone's personal opinion?
Part of building a real world and living roleplaying game is adding in a lot of the ‘little things’ that make a world feel alive. Not every feature is going to be equally fun or meaningful, but the sum of the parts is what makes some games feel special and others feel like just a game.
Did having to walk to EC carrying 100k plat suck with no STR buff? Sure, but it definitely made me re-think when, where and how I bought something which is almost a meta-game in itself; now that is gone from your game.
Did forgetting arrows give pains for the Ranger? Of course, but it gave him a reason to interact with the Mage. Now having another reason to plan for battle (a key tenant of your game) is gone. Why not just make all arrows more powerful, but require people to carry them? Unlimited bowing for damage just feels so arcade-like, or maybe modern eastern roleplaying. I do not believe that is your target gameplay.
In general, consumables required for spells and abilities is such a classic roleplaying mechanic that if they are removed from the game due to being labeled as tedious, it makes me think the focus is moving away from a ‘real breathing world’ and more towards ‘just get people into combat faster’. I know there is a 2 hour play session target, but why do we have to sacrifice traditional mechanics that are no better or worse than other arbitrary concerns like I pointed out in the first paragraph?
Alot of good points. My take-away from this as an old schooler is: as much as I want the player to feel the pain of CR or auction tunnels tainted with RMT or to change the persons mind to love to avoid CR's and spend time adventuring instead of trading because in-game money is just fluff for immersions-sake, or leveling their alt and leaving a gap in my normal group......
I think the tone I can bring in-game will be more important. This means I will have to avoid reminiscing or telling someone how to play their class, or assuming the class wil have the same skills and abilities I remember but rather, deal with the game as presented itself, with no class balance nor even a thought that the classes need to be balanced and trusting in the development and the tennants.
Rather, to deflect such conversations or questions or remarks while in-game to the adventure itself, to the dare-I-say RP aspect itself. For as player characters we will all be playing a role in the venue that is a game called Pantheon. How I respond ir interact will be the most influential I think.
Pilch said:...ultimately, you are performing the same skills for hundreds of hours of gameplay... do you really think challenge is still there after playing a class so long? I feel that type of challenge becomes trivial after a while.
...the timesink is always going to be required to separate the hardcore from the casual.
Pilch I agree with you on a lot of things you said. Failure makes makes the game fun and throwing yourself at a challenge for hours makes defeating that raid boss super sweet. However I think you are wrong about content being trivial. Even in WOW there is a huge gap in DPS among equally geared and time played characters. There is a reason world first races and theorycrafting websites exist. Skill does play a factor in the game. Even in trivial dungeon grinding you can always ramp up the difficutly by pulling more mobs. The more skilled players are going to take down content faster and more efficiently.
Now this isn't a skilled game like an FPS game and time is absolutely important as well. Someone who invests 80 hours a week should (not guaranteed) be farther along then someone who plays 40 hours a week. However, there should be enough challenge in the game that progression is a product of time * skill.
Time should not be the only variable seperating the "hardcore from the casual". The biggest derp in the world shouldn't be king just because they have the most time.
Munk said:Pilch I agree with you on a lot of things you said. Failure makes makes the game fun and throwing yourself at a challenge for hours makes defeating that raid boss super sweet. However I think you are wrong about content being trivial. Even in WOW there is a huge gap in DPS among equally geared and time played characters. There is a reason world first races and theorycrafting websites exist. Skill does play a factor in the game. Even in trivial dungeon grinding you can always ramp up the difficutly by pulling more mobs. The more skilled players are going to take down content faster and more efficiently.
Now this isn't a skilled game like an FPS game and time is absolutely important as well. Someone who invests 80 hours a week should (not guaranteed) be farther along then someone who plays 40 hours a week. However, there should be enough challenge in the game that progression is a product of time * skill.
Time should not be the only variable seperating the "hardcore from the casual". The biggest derp in the world shouldn't be king just because they have the most time.
I don't think time should be the only variable that separates hardcore from casual but that is usually what it comes down to. There should be rewards from challenging content like raids but then there should be even better rewards for doing a long quest line that involves multiple raids plus additional time extensive parts. I'm not against challenging content, I'm 100% for the harder the better, but I also think the best things in the game need to take a lot of time(not all at once, but over the course of a year or more). I want there to be things in Pantheon that I will never have the time to get, just knowing its there keeps me motivated and playing.
There is a difference between player skill, you are right, but there are only so many ways a class can be played, and normally just looking on the internet you can find a general rotation or what not that is ideal. People play MMOs for hundreds and hundreds of hours, if they have not mastered the class by that point then I dont know what to say about them. Thats what I mean when I say it becomes trivial.
Pilch said:I don't think time should be the only variable that separates hardcore from casual but that is usually what it comes down to. There should be rewards from challenging content like raids but then there should be even better rewards for doing a long quest line that involves multiple raids plus additional time extensive parts. I'm not against challenging content, I'm 100% for the harder the better, but I also think the best things in the game need to take a lot of time(not all at once, but over the course of a year or more). I want there to be things in Pantheon that I will never have the time to get, just knowing its there keeps me motivated and playing.
There is a difference between player skill, you are right, but there are only so many ways a class can be played, and normally just looking on the internet you can find a general rotation or what not that is ideal. People play MMOs for hundreds and hundreds of hours, if they have not mastered the class by that point then I dont know what to say about them. Thats what I mean when I say it becomes trivial.
I agree with this up until the point it becomes so unreasonable that people have to batphone to do it. That's where I draw the line, personally.
But yes, time is definitely something that should be factored. Lengthy raids and long quests requiring multiple raids to complete are welcomed by me!!!
Skill / challenge isn't just limited to class mastery and rotation though. Mechanics requiring situational awareness can play a big part in that. Knowing your rotation and being able to execute it while staying alive through new, unknown mechanics is another. But I generally think games have taken that to extremes also. I would much rather see the pace of combat slow down a little more and put more emphasis on group tactics and planning, rather than he who clicks fastest (twitch) wins style of combat. I would hope that clerics aren't just parked in a wall and standing in regular intervals to heal, but I don't want to just spam a rotation while dodging fireballs for 20 minutes to get through it either. Again, I'm kind of looking forward to a more deliberate and thoughtful approach that takes a little time to get through. Something sort of in-between with the auto-attack tab targeting method in focus.
If I want furious action packed combat, I'll go play those games instead. I want variety and Pantheon is a welcome addition. It's good to have choices depending on what mood I'm in that day. :)