Searril said:philo said:Searril said:Syrif said:You mentioned that 'many here aren't willing to listen to Brad,' do you have an example of that? I haven't seen that as of yet.
Sure do. For instance, the FAQ makes it pretty clear that losing your gear on your corpse ain't gonna happen, and yet certain people on here continue to promote how awesome it is to have a game where you can lose all your stuff from corpse rot.
Just to play devils advocate a bit, the FAQ is not entirely accurate as it has not been updated in quite awhile. I wouldn't consider it set in stone by any means.
For example, the FAQ says there will be an in-game voice chat but in recent discussions they have talked about going away from that. Brad recently posted that they hope to update the FAQ in the next couple months. Hopefully after that happens it will be more reliable but until then take it with a grain of salt.
Ok. So now the FAQ is meaningless.
Gotcha.
Since the FAQ isn't set in stone, then what Philo states is correct - unless I'm missing something.
Riahuf22 said:The biggest thing that I was trying to get at is a lot of people on this topic and simply flat out saying someone's idea is wrong, or that they should go to another mmorpg altogether, and that is so toxic that it's mind blowing that this thread hadn't been blocked from the beginning. You simply create a wedge between the community itself when you state comments like that. So I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be stating our ideas, for as long we aren't saying someone's else's is wrong, and of course people are not going to like your ideas simply becuase it isn't theirs even though I e seen people say they didn't l I'm e someone else's idea but than again later basically use the same idea with a twist but I guess that what you get from people who don't really know what they want I dunno
You know censorship is never a good idea. Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't give you the right to ask for it to be blocked. Getting into very subjective territory.
Searril said:Syrif said:Searril said:Syrif said:You mentioned that 'many here aren't willing to listen to Brad,' do you have an example of that? I haven't seen that as of yet.
Sure do. For instance, the FAQ makes it pretty clear that losing your gear on your corpse ain't gonna happen, and yet certain people on here continue to promote how awesome it is to have a game where you can lose all your stuff from corpse rot.
That's news to me Searril. I haven't seen anyone who wants a character to lose all of their gear if they die. What a lot have people have advocated for is the necessity in recovering your corpse to reloot gear and gain some experience back via rez.
Then I humbly submit that you aren't seeing a lot of stuff posted here. But I'm not wasting my time arguing on it. These types of "arguments" have been going on here for years, and yet one side always claims "hey I haven't seen that" when the other side points out what some people are saying.
It's old, and tiring, and I'm sick of the forum games.
Well, I only see what I've read I guess. I just haven't seen people wanting your gear to be lost when you die. Recovering your corpse to reloot your gear and gain some exp lost via rez is entirely different. Now, if there is 'corpse rot' again then I assume I'll just have to learn the ropes of Pantheon. :)
Syrif said:Searril said:philo said:Just to play devils advocate a bit, the FAQ is not entirely accurate as it has not been updated in quite awhile. I wouldn't consider it set in stone by any means.
For example, the FAQ says there will be an in-game voice chat but in recent discussions they have talked about going away from that. Brad recently posted that they hope to update the FAQ in the next couple months. Hopefully after that happens it will be more reliable but until then take it with a grain of salt.
Ok. So now the FAQ is meaningless.
Gotcha.
Since the FAQ isn't set in stone, then what Philo states is correct - unless I'm missing something.
Here's a quote from Brad under the stickied FAQ thread just this week. The FAQ isn't completely set in stone and is a living/breathing document and will be updated at some point.
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8530/frequently-asked-questions/view/page/2
"Awesome work, very much appreciated. We are indeed due to update the FAQ and this will be a huge help. I think we'll have the resources to do a major update in the next couple of months, but I cannot be more specific than that (yet)."
Let us not forget that it is perfectly appropriate to disagree with what Brad or anyone else from VR says unless they say that their minds are made up and further discussion of the point is not helpful. Which every now and then they *do* say.
Where they do not request that we accept their decision and move on - it is in no way insubordinate or disrespectful to give reasons why a different approach might be better. Maybe they will see something that changes their minds.
Think of this as analagous to a work situation. Some bosses prefer just to hear "sir yessir" or "maam yes maam" when they say something. Almost all of the good ones much prefer people that will tell them why they may be wrong as long as those people do follow instructions once the decision is final. VR is the "boss" of these forums and the game - but they have repeatedly said that they prefer hearing contrary opinions when supported by explanation and logic unless and until they say "point closed move on".
Syrif said:Searril said:Syrif said:Searril said:Syrif said:You mentioned that 'many here aren't willing to listen to Brad,' do you have an example of that? I haven't seen that as of yet.
Sure do. For instance, the FAQ makes it pretty clear that losing your gear on your corpse ain't gonna happen, and yet certain people on here continue to promote how awesome it is to have a game where you can lose all your stuff from corpse rot.
That's news to me Searril. I haven't seen anyone who wants a character to lose all of their gear if they die. What a lot have people have advocated for is the necessity in recovering your corpse to reloot gear and gain some experience back via rez.
Then I humbly submit that you aren't seeing a lot of stuff posted here. But I'm not wasting my time arguing on it. These types of "arguments" have been going on here for years, and yet one side always claims "hey I haven't seen that" when the other side points out what some people are saying.
It's old, and tiring, and I'm sick of the forum games.
Well, I only see what I've read I guess. I just haven't seen people wanting your gear to be lost when you die. Recovering your corpse to reloot your gear and gain some exp lost via rez is entirely different. Now, if there is 'corpse rot' then I assume I'll just have to learn the ropes of Pantheon. :)
I acutally like Trasak's idea on corpse runs that meet a middle ground more or less.
Trasak - My idea focuses on “insuring” your gear. If you die you can choose to go to the bank and retrieve your insured gear but your corpse is destroyed, you lose the ability to get any exp back, all uninsured items on your body are destroyed (specifically all the loot you have gotten since you last insured) all cash is lost, and you must pay again to insure your gear. Pretty brutal in my opinion and almost impossible to exploit but still give player an out when things go really bad.
Watemper said:Riahuf22 said:The biggest thing that I was trying to get at is a lot of people on this topic and simply flat out saying someone's idea is wrong, or that they should go to another mmorpg altogether, and that is so toxic that it's mind blowing that this thread hadn't been blocked from the beginning. You simply create a wedge between the community itself when you state comments like that. So I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be stating our ideas, for as long we aren't saying someone's else's is wrong, and of course people are not going to like your ideas simply becuase it isn't theirs even though I e seen people say they didn't l I'm e someone else's idea but than again later basically use the same idea with a twist but I guess that what you get from people who don't really know what they want I dunno
You know censorship is never a good idea. Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't give you the right to ask for it to be blocked. Getting into very subjective territory.
Neither is saying if you don't like certain ideas you should find a different mmorpg altogether, which is what I was getting at, it is self destructive and not called for, so if you think my comment is treading on waters than the OP definately was by telling them to find another mmo.
@Watemper Nice thoughts! I enjoy reading different ideas. The mmo market is so monopolized at the moment that something different will be nice. :)
@Naunet Interesting idea about the necro healer. I've read about that. I'm curious to see what could happen with that class.
Syrif said:@Porygon Ah, I assumed it would have been realized I was referring to the live version of WoW given that it monopolizes the market at the moment. But yes - the current declines refer to the live versions of those games of course. I’m used to saying Classic EQ or EQ-Live since they are/were very different games. I don't know much about WoW other than it being in a downward spiral. I wasn’t looking at sheer numbers either, just the up and down trend.
Eq is a single game that made dynamic changes. If you are going to separate the parts you like vs. The parts you don't just to fit your argument... well that's silly.
Eq1 grew roughly 125% from 2000-2004ish when it hit peak subs.
In the same time period (roughly 1 year after launch - 4 years at peak) wow grew roughly 325%.
I just don't get where your argument is heading by bringing up subs.
@Porygon Why again? Now that's silly. I don't have an argument. Anyway, computers are a dime a dozen unlike in '99, and what I've stated in my posts has already clarified what I was referring to. ;) Curious - what excites you about Pantheon?
Syrif said:@Naunet Interesting idea about the necro healer. I've read about that. I'm curious to see what could happen with that class.
Just swinging by to express happiness at the interest! Necromancer as a healing class is something I've wanted for so very long. I love the contrast of life/death/undeath and playing with those themes. *surreptitiously sends cookies to VR with little "necro healer" post-it notes*
Syrif said:Since the FAQ isn't set in stone, then what Philo states is correct - unless I'm missing something.
You are. You're both missing the fact that you've just proved what I said was right -- some people on here will even ignore what Brad says.
Unless you can provide an official statement contravening anything stated in the FAQ, the FAQ stands.
Searril said:Syrif said:Since the FAQ isn't set in stone, then what Philo states is correct - unless I'm missing something.
Unless you can provide an official statement contravening anything stated in the FAQ, the FAQ stands.
Aradune said:" We are indeed due to update the FAQ and this will be a huge help. I think we'll have the resources to do a major update in the next couple of months, but I cannot be more specific than that (yet)."
We get you aren't up to date on the most recent info Searril so we are trying to help out by letting you know. The above statement is only from a few days ago but the FAQ has been outdated for a long time.
As recently as the last stream or two there have been discussions about the direction the game is going that contradict what it says in the FAQ.
We aren't making stuff up just to argue with you.
Riahuf22 said:Watemper said:Riahuf22 said:The biggest thing that I was trying to get at is a lot of people on this topic and simply flat out saying someone's idea is wrong, or that they should go to another mmorpg altogether, and that is so toxic that it's mind blowing that this thread hadn't been blocked from the beginning. You simply create a wedge between the community itself when you state comments like that. So I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be stating our ideas, for as long we aren't saying someone's else's is wrong, and of course people are not going to like your ideas simply becuase it isn't theirs even though I e seen people say they didn't l I'm e someone else's idea but than again later basically use the same idea with a twist but I guess that what you get from people who don't really know what they want I dunno
You know censorship is never a good idea. Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't give you the right to ask for it to be blocked. Getting into very subjective territory.
Neither is saying if you don't like certain ideas you should find a different mmorpg altogether, which is what I was getting at, it is self destructive and not called for, so if you think my comment is treading on waters than the OP definately was by telling them to find another mmo.
So one is a suggestion and the other is actively trying to silence someone. Which one is more dangerous?
Plus, I really don't care what you think is toxic or not. I think your post is quite toxic myself. Should I ask the devs to silence and block your post based on what I feel.
philo said:Searril said:Syrif said:Since the FAQ isn't set in stone, then what Philo states is correct - unless I'm missing something.
Unless you can provide an official statement contravening anything stated in the FAQ, the FAQ stands.
Aradune said:" We are indeed due to update the FAQ and this will be a huge help. I think we'll have the resources to do a major update in the next couple of months, but I cannot be more specific than that (yet)."
We get you aren't up to date on the most recent info Searril so we are trying to help out by letting you know. The above statement is only from a few days ago but the FAQ has been outdated for a long time.
As recently as the last stream or two there have been discussions about the direction the game is going that contradict what it says in the FAQ.
We aren't making stuff up just to argue with you.
Until he says something different, what he has already said stands.
If he updates the FAQ and it says "corpses rotting and losing gear is awesome" then that becomes official.
By your logic someone can come along and say "there's going to be lots of instancing but the FAQ just hasn't been updated yet." When it's updated, then those changes are official.
It ain't official until it's official.
Naunet said:Syrif said:@Naunet Interesting idea about the necro healer. I've read about that. I'm curious to see what could happen with that class.Just swinging by to express happiness at the interest! Necromancer as a healing class is something I've wanted for so very long. I love the contrast of life/death/undeath and playing with those themes. *surreptitiously sends cookies to VR with little "necro healer" post-it notes*
So awesome Naunet. Really cool idea. This would be good discussion for sure. :) I can totally see this too, necro being a healer class of some sort. Like a caster-healer with unique abilities.
Watemper said:Riahuf22 said:Watemper said:Riahuf22 said:The biggest thing that I was trying to get at is a lot of people on this topic and simply flat out saying someone's idea is wrong, or that they should go to another mmorpg altogether, and that is so toxic that it's mind blowing that this thread hadn't been blocked from the beginning. You simply create a wedge between the community itself when you state comments like that. So I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be stating our ideas, for as long we aren't saying someone's else's is wrong, and of course people are not going to like your ideas simply becuase it isn't theirs even though I e seen people say they didn't l I'm e someone else's idea but than again later basically use the same idea with a twist but I guess that what you get from people who don't really know what they want I dunno
You know censorship is never a good idea. Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't give you the right to ask for it to be blocked. Getting into very subjective territory.
Neither is saying if you don't like certain ideas you should find a different mmorpg altogether, which is what I was getting at, it is self destructive and not called for, so if you think my comment is treading on waters than the OP definately was by telling them to find another mmo.
So one is a suggestion and the other is actively trying to silence someone. Which one is more dangerous?
Plus, I really don't care what you think is toxic or not. I think your post is quite toxic myself. Should I ask the devs to silence and block your post based on what I feel.
Mine isn't toxic as mine was a suggestion as well if you want to put it that way, but when everyone here is all waiting on the same thing and someone says something like find another mmo, it can be quite discouraging in what kind of game they might be jumping into, all I did was making people realize what they aredoing, and to be honest i am not being toxic I am defending the people who state different opinions than others and than get ambushed by statements saying that isn't old school, or that isn't how eq did it, instead of simply realizing it's just an opinion, and you can take that opinion and use your opinion and than mix the 2 and see how it works, instead of simply saying your idea doesn't work move to another mmo.
Riahuf22 said:Watemper said:Riahuf22 said:Watemper said:Riahuf22 said:The biggest thing that I was trying to get at is a lot of people on this topic and simply flat out saying someone's idea is wrong, or that they should go to another mmorpg altogether, and that is so toxic that it's mind blowing that this thread hadn't been blocked from the beginning. You simply create a wedge between the community itself when you state comments like that. So I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be stating our ideas, for as long we aren't saying someone's else's is wrong, and of course people are not going to like your ideas simply becuase it isn't theirs even though I e seen people say they didn't l I'm e someone else's idea but than again later basically use the same idea with a twist but I guess that what you get from people who don't really know what they want I dunno
You know censorship is never a good idea. Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't give you the right to ask for it to be blocked. Getting into very subjective territory.
Neither is saying if you don't like certain ideas you should find a different mmorpg altogether, which is what I was getting at, it is self destructive and not called for, so if you think my comment is treading on waters than the OP definately was by telling them to find another mmo.
So one is a suggestion and the other is actively trying to silence someone. Which one is more dangerous?
Plus, I really don't care what you think is toxic or not. I think your post is quite toxic myself. Should I ask the devs to silence and block your post based on what I feel.
Mine isn't toxic as mine was a suggestion as well if you want to put it that way, but when everyone here is all waiting on the same thing and someone says something like find another mmo, it can be quite discouraging in what kind of game they might be jumping into, all I did was making people realize what they aredoing, and to be honest i am not being toxic I am defending the people who state different opinions than others and than get ambushed by statements saying that isn't old school, or that isn't how eq did it, instead of simply realizing it's just an opinion, and you can take that opinion and use your opinion and than mix the 2 and see how it works, instead of simply saying your idea doesn't work move to another mmo.
I would say that your opinion on your comment is null and that I get to deam what is toxic by my standards, not yours. See what I did there?
By the way, based on the initial comment of the author, it was most definently a suggestion with how it is worded. Yours sounded more like a demand because of your opinion on toxicity. Anyways, I love you double downing on your comments... keep at it bro.
Would you two kindly silence yourselves or take it PMs if your argument is so important?
The FAQ is only accurate to the date it was last updated, which is over a year and a half ago; some things in it are still spot on but other things are going a different direction now and can be found in various posts or interviews over the past year and a half from Brad/Joppa and other members of VR.
Syrif said:@Porygon Why again? Now that's silly. I don't have an argument. Anyway, computers are a dime a dozen unlike in '99, and what I've stated in my posts has already clarified what I was referring to. ;) Curious - what excites you about Pantheon?
I'm just trying to figure what you're point was supposed to be when you brought up sub numbers. Because I dont understand. It seemed like you were implying that because EQ "classic" had increasing subs it was doing something right... but wow "classic" also had increasing subs. A much larger percentage (not raw number) of them. I'm just confused.
disposalist said:The thing to remember is Pantheon is clearly going to look to old-school Everquest and Vanguard for inspiration, because that is the last time a lot of us saw a game with the core values that we want, but modern games aren't all 100% bad. Some more than others and some seemingly 'good' features were/are to the detriment of the old-school feel, but we have to trust VR to know the difference.
Brad and the team have a massive amount of MMORPG development (and playing) experience. They *can* read everyone's comments, get a feel for what 'the community' wants and fold it into their vision, or indeed, know which bits that shouldn't be done, even if they seem popular, for the good of the game.
It *is* worth discussing and commenting on aspects that concern or interest us, but it is pointless getting heated and bickering and arguing. Trust in VR.
Nicely said Disposalist. And nice image - Trust in Pantheon <3
Iksar said:The FAQ is only accurate to the date it was last updated, which is over a year and a half ago; some things in it are still spot on but other things are going a different direction now and can be found in various posts or interviews over the past year and a half from Brad/Joppa and other members of VR.
Everyone is aware of that. That's pretty much my whole point ... The FAQ stands unless something has been officially stated otherwise.
Searril said:Iksar said:The FAQ is only accurate to the date it was last updated, which is over a year and a half ago; some things in it are still spot on but other things are going a different direction now and can be found in various posts or interviews over the past year and a half from Brad/Joppa and other members of VR.
Everyone is aware of that. That's pretty much my whole point ... The FAQ stands unless something has been officially stated otherwise.
I'll beat the horse one last time but I think it has been explained in multiple ways by multiple people now and that's all we can do.
Searril said: The FAQ stands unless something has been officially stated otherwise.
When VR team members say something publicly that is as official as you are going to get. More so than other, older outdated info we may have received in the past.
Iksar said: some things in it are still spot on but other things are going a different direction now and can be found in various posts or interviews over the past year and a half from Brad/Joppa and other members of VR.
A couple of those points that Iksar mentioned have been brought up in this thread. We aren't privy to 100% of the behind the scenes information. Much of it is still in flux anyway. Just as a general rule at this point, we have been told that the FAQ will be updated soon-ish so it isn't great to base a discussion around at this point. Yes parts of it will end up being accurate. The point was simply to not put to much emphasis on the FAQ when we have been told officially that parts are inaccurate and will be changing. We just don't know what all is included in that yet.
Syrif said:Snrub- I have yet to see someone who wants a 100% EQ clone. Have you? Anyway, I would wager a lot of people miss the depth and challenge that is lacking in the mmo market such as a naked corpse runs. I LOVE and miss that type of a game :)
I'll say it. I want a 100% clone of EQ1 as it stood when Velious was the most current xpac. By clone I do not mean exact same geography, lore, mythos, etc, but the mechanics. All of the mechancis, just as they were, in 2000. Toss in new graphics, new zones, new dungeons, etc. But the naked corpse run, the exp loss, the boat ride, the EC Tunnel trade hub, all of it? Abso-freaking-lutely.
I play p1999 on Velious blue right now, and I do so for a reason. It's as good as MMO gaming gets, even with a 7 years old server that is mature to the point of insanity. It's still the best gaming MMOs have to offer. Last night I ran to three zones LFG, had my tag up, asked LFG in my guild chat, and it took 2 hours of solid leg work to get a group. Okie doke. I died to a 45 sec AFK because some idiot ran a train over me. Okie doke. I died because two of my group members were afk all the time. Lost a quarter of a level and got no rezz. OKIE DOKE!
Here's the bottom line of all these QoL discussions - no matter what VR does at this point, a sizable chunk of the people who want to play Pantheon will not like it at all and will ed up not playin for long. What VR needs to do is figure out who represents the largest population and make the game that population likes and has been asking for. If it is people who never played EQ and need WoW era QoL stuff, then make that game. If it is the old school EQ1 hardcores like me, then make that game. Either way they go, they are losing a chunk of the fanbase because it is glaringly clear that we are a population divided on this issue, will never see eye to eye, and want the game we want.
If they make a QoL casual friendly game, my money got flushed down a drain because I won't play it. No worries, I have a job and there are other games. Like I said, I get my old school fix right now just fine, for free. Again, they need to do detailed polling to gauge where their fanbase is right now, and they better placate the majority, since losing players is inevitable at this point.
@Venjenz Nice thoughts. I've always wondered how many players actually partake in forums, even after release. I've tried to get my friends involved, but they'd just rather be in the game or follow it instead of interacting on forums.
