Kill them or die trying because I'll likely be on the PvP server for that reason as well as the comradery and end game fun that comes with open world PvP. Whoever wins gets the camp... because you live or die by courtesy rules on a PvP server (i.e. Loot-n-Scoot, help those on a CR regardless of alliance, no PvP while conducting fair trade ect.); If you don't obey the PvP rules everyone on the server comes after you until you publically apologize or re-roll characters. The consequences of your actions are fo-real. The caviat to that is if a pvp guild supports griefing.
On a PvE server there would be nothing you could legitimately do unless you were a character with a reputation, personal friends with a GM or Guide, or a character well known in the gaming community. i.e. if there was a character named Bazgrim that mentioned in /ooc "this guy named ***** is kill stealing me", then the guy named ***** is likely going to get tons of spam tells and likely be harassed by several people in the community and likely a prompt response from a GM or Guide suggesting to the player that they should conduct themselves in a polite manner and explaining why their actions weren't considered proper game etiquette. But ultimately, there would be nothing you could do other than complain.
This is of course my opinion based on previous games.
Darch said:Kill them or die trying because I'll likely be on the PvP server for that reason as well as the comradery and end game fun that comes with open world PvP. Whoever wins gets the camp... because you live or die by courtesy rules on a PvP server (i.e. Loot-n-Scoot, help those on a CR regardless of alliance, no PvP while conducting fair trade ect.); If you don't obey the PvP rules everyone on the server comes after you until you publically apologize or re-roll characters. The consequences of your actions are fo-real. The caviat to that is if a pvp guild supports griefing.
On a PvE server there would be nothing you could legitimately do unless you were a character with a reputation, personal friends with a GM or Guide, or a character well known in the gaming community. i.e. if there was a character named Bazgrim that mentioned in /ooc "this guy named ***** is kill stealing me", then the guy named ***** is likely going to get tons of spam tells and likely be harassed by several people in the community and likely a prompt response from a GM or Guide suggesting to the player that they should conduct themselves in a polite manner and explaining why their actions weren't considered proper game etiquette. But ultimately, there would be nothing you could do other than complain.
This is of course my opinion based on previous games.
You're not wrong. Pvp servers give the community a much better way to police things themselves. But dont discount reputation on pve servers. I have seen players in eq1 be entirely boycotted from groups, buffs, rezzes etc. Its a hard game to play when you cant rez your corpses.
Politics is great way to handle this issue, rep/karma or whatever.
Although many would consider it too “carebear”, LOTRO allows anyone to damage a mob to get the quest point, or quest drop. A similar thing could occur in this game, just apply the same RNG to each player for whatever drop they are looking for. Of course as a prospective wizard, I would hope I could out damage most other classes. Now the Kedge Keep camp about kicked my (and my guilds) a$$. I did have the wizard epic finally.
Porygon said:But dont discount reputation on pve servers. I have seen players in eq1 be entirely boycotted from groups, buffs, rezzes etc. Its a hard game to play when you cant rez your corpses.
Hmm im curious if you were in a big guild or something?
Check out this story of mine:
EQ was big when I was a kid, and being a kid I wasn't always a top morals player. I think A crowning jewel here was a time when I was a level 20 or so bard in Karnor's castle (a level 40 something area) and some rare no drop bracer dropped for a group that I wasn't involved with that CANT be used by bards. The group was just sitting there rolling on the bracer. I checked the corpse, saw a nice item, and took it(again, I consider this especially nasty since I couldn't use it). The group did what you might expect, threatening to train and report and what have you. I logged out. Logged in the next day, no gm convo or warnings or whatever, and when I stuck around in karnor's for a while I didn't get yelled at by anyone. When I went to my regular leveled areas I also never ran into any social issues. I wasn't in a guild and didn't really mind it that way-I was a kid, but again I don't remember any of my questionable antics every coming back to me in any conversation.
My point being, That wasn't even the only "bad" thing I did, which by all rights should have ruined my reputation. Yet-I never ran into these bad reputation issues you mentioned. People who just don't care, due to age or personality or whatever, DO exist. Reputation hits do not always happen, even if they should, and the offender may or may not care about the social consequences of their actions in the first place. I had plenty of fun stealing powerful things and then using those to self twink. You could even say that this playstyle made me MORE desirable in groups, though it's impossible to say if people kept me in their group due to gear or just wanting another person. The person I'm scared of when I call for things like a PnP, is usually my younger self....I know that person and what he's capable of quite well.
BeaverBiscuit said:Hmm im curious if you were in a big guild or something?
I'll counter with a story of my own. I had a friend who used to run various scams to get ahead. Mod rod scams, copper scams etc. Eventually word got around what was happening and not a single person on the server would group with him. Noone would rez him or buff him. And people would not even openly trade with him. He had a bazaar mule that was "my character name"too (so Porygontoo essentially).
He ends up in an argument with the zone and acknowledges who he is. To which point the server also blacklists his alt. Three server also blacklisted me, because my name was so similar to his. I had to rally every single good person I ever helped to come to my defense and explain I was a different person to which the server eventually believed. My friend however had to reroll a new character because he was essentially stuck in a group game solo.
Also
In my later eq years once I learned how to play and began raiding. I was kind of a dick. I would talk down to people, get into general fights etc. When I applied for the top guild on my server expecting to get in with ease. They declined me citing that my reputation was not something they wanted to chance, and to many of their members had concerns with how I conducted myself. Keep in mind I had never trained or ninja looted... it was literally just because of how I acted. To this day, across every game I've ever played, that's the only guild to ever turn me down.
Just some examples from my experience with eq1 reputation.
Porygon said:BeaverBiscuit said:Hmm im curious if you were in a big guild or something?
I'll counter with a story of my own. I had a friend who used to run various scams to get ahead. Mod rod scams, copper scams etc. Eventually word got around what was happening and not a single person on the server would group with him. Noone would rez him or buff him. And people would not even openly trade with him. He had a bazaar mule that was "my character name"too (so Porygontoo essentially).
He ends up in an argument with the zone and acknowledges who he is. To which point the server also blacklists his alt. Three server also blacklisted me, because my name was so similar to his. I had to rally every single good person I ever helped to come to my defense and explain I was a different person to which the server eventually believed. My friend however had to reroll a new character because he was essentially stuck in a group game solo.
Also
In my later eq years once I learned how to play and began raiding. I was kind of a dick. I would talk down to people, get into general fights etc. When I applied for the top guild on my server expecting to get in with ease. They declined me citing that my reputation was not something they wanted to chance, and to many of their members had concerns with how I conducted myself. Keep in mind I had never trained or ninja looted... it was literally just because of how I acted. To this day, across every game I've ever played, that's the only guild to ever turn me down.
Just some examples from my experience with eq1 reputation.
Fun story : Don't get friend with bad people ! Their taint doesn't wash off clothes...
BeaverBiscuit said:Porygon said:But dont discount reputation on pve servers. I have seen players in eq1 be entirely boycotted from groups, buffs, rezzes etc. Its a hard game to play when you cant rez your corpses.
Hmm im curious if you were in a big guild or something?
Check out this story of mine:
EQ was big when I was a kid, and being a kid I wasn't always a top morals player. I think A crowning jewel here was a time when I was a level 20 or so bard in Karnor's castle (a level 40 something area) and some rare no drop bracer dropped for a group that I wasn't involved with that CANT be used by bards. The group was just sitting there rolling on the bracer. I checked the corpse, saw a nice item, and took it(again, I consider this especially nasty since I couldn't use it). The group did what you might expect, threatening to train and report and what have you. I logged out. Logged in the next day, no gm convo or warnings or whatever, and when I stuck around in karnor's for a while I didn't get yelled at by anyone. When I went to my regular leveled areas I also never ran into any social issues. I wasn't in a guild and didn't really mind it that way-I was a kid, but again I don't remember any of my questionable antics every coming back to me in any conversation.
My point being, That wasn't even the only "bad" thing I did, which by all rights should have ruined my reputation. Yet-I never ran into these bad reputation issues you mentioned. People who just don't care, due to age or personality or whatever, DO exist. Reputation hits do not always happen, even if they should, and the offender may or may not care about the social consequences of their actions in the first place. I had plenty of fun stealing powerful things and then using those to self twink. You could even say that this playstyle made me MORE desirable in groups, though it's impossible to say if people kept me in their group due to gear or just wanting another person. The person I'm scared of when I call for things like a PnP, is usually my younger self....I know that person and what he's capable of quite well.
Thanks for openly sharing that even though it shines a negative light on you.
I want to point out that a major part of reputation mattering is only for those who are fully immersed in the game. If someone is a young kid who doesn't play a ton or isn't guilded or, in the case of EQ, didn't raid then ya, reputations won't mean as much.
But if that player eventually gets fully immersed in the game and wants to advance further where they join a guild and raid often that could eventually come back to bite them.
I'm sure if you had ninjad a epic item off of VS during Kunark there would have been a lot more backlash. Some lvl 20 ninjaing a random drop bracer worth a few plat, while it sucks, isn't cause for most players to freak out. Put you on their sh!t list and move on. Other than from VS, nothing in KC was worth enough for people to spend time trying to correct that situation through a gm.
philo said:nothing in KC was worth enough for people to spend time trying to correct that situation through a gm.
Idk man. I would be pretty mad if someone ninjad a Tstaff from me.
But I get your point. Often the actual item ninjad makes a difference, if it's small noone cares!
Porygon said:philo said:nothing in KC was worth enough for people to spend time trying to correct that situation through a gm.
Idk man. I would be pretty mad if someone ninjad a Tstaff from me.
But I get your point. Often the actual item ninjad makes a difference, if it's small noone cares!
It's a hilariously false statement considering something like 20 different pieces of kunark class armor, and some really good ones, dropped there. Jade Mace, Lupine dagger, Jararth Trident, Locustlure were all AMAZING weapon upgrades from classic.
Kilsin said:Scenario: You're happily camping a named mob after waiting patiently to get the camp from someone else, along comes a random player who just starts competing for the named spawn without saying anything, you kindly ask them to stop and they ignore you - what do you do? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Twitter Poll: https://twitter.com/PantheonMMO/status/1011201275759738881
If the game is going to build content around traditional camping (and thus, claiming camps), I would like to see a robust Play Nice Policy in place. If there is no such policy, yet the gameplay encourages and supports a camping playstyle, I fully expect a sewer of a community will emerge.
From my experience in EQ1, much of this stems from guilds where the members function as a protected class, supporting each other to the detriment of those who are not members. "Blacklisting" someone in your personal file for future reference isnt going to be of much value when that person will never need anything other than their own guild to succeed. And when that guild doesnt give 2c about what members do to non-guildies, then there really is no recourse for the victim other than to give up and move on, log out, or administer their own justice (i.e. training), none of which creates a desirable community. The long term effects of this will absoutely decimate a community.
As an idea, the Play Nice Policy needs to contain a section for guilds, with a high level of accountability for guild leaders. GM's would notify guild leaders that certain members are being repeatedly reported for in-game absues. The guild leadership would need to address these issues with their members. To the offending guild member, the threat of being removed from their protective guild cocoon would be a powerful persuader to change their behavior. Non-compliance could ulimately result in the guild leader removing them from the guild, their "protected class" status gone, and they must now face the community they had once abused for their benefit. Guilds who fail to keep their members in check, or systemically harbor and protect the worst and most repeat offenders, could ultimately result in forced guild disbandment, which would place the ultimate level of accountability on the guild leadership to keep their members in check. Something of that sort.
Keno Monster said:Porygon said:philo said:nothing in KC was worth enough for people to spend time trying to correct that situation through a gm.
Idk man. I would be pretty mad if someone ninjad a Tstaff from me.
But I get your point. Often the actual item ninjad makes a difference, if it's small noone cares!
It's a hilariously false statement considering something like 20 different pieces of kunark class armor, and some really good ones, dropped there. Jade Mace, Lupine dagger, Jararth Trident, Locustlure were all AMAZING weapon upgrades from classic.
I might have been over generalizing but Porg got the point. In the given scenario the item in question didn't sound like it was worth the players time to follow up on.
Though I think you are exagerating, or are over valueing some of those items. In general, if you were in an active raiding guild, the only items that were going to give players upgrades was from VS. Heck, you can simply buy most of those things you listed if you really wanted them. At that time people were acquiring epics...jade maces were good at first but were quickly given to alts as players got upgrades. We have a difference of opinion on what was "Amazing" I think.
philo said:Keno Monster said:Porygon said:philo said:nothing in KC was worth enough for people to spend time trying to correct that situation through a gm.
Idk man. I would be pretty mad if someone ninjad a Tstaff from me.
But I get your point. Often the actual item ninjad makes a difference, if it's small noone cares!
I think we played at different times, which has a huge effect on the value of items as well. I didn't mean to be rude.
It's a hilariously false statement considering something like 20 different pieces of kunark class armor, and some really good ones, dropped there. Jade Mace, Lupine dagger, Jararth Trident, Locustlure were all AMAZING weapon upgrades from classic.
I might have been over generalizing but Porg got the point. In the given scenario the item in question didn't sound like it was worth the players time to follow up on.
Though I think you are exagerating, or are over valueing some of those items. In general, if you were in an active raiding guild, the only items that were going to give players upgrades was from VS. Heck, you can simply buy most of those things you listed if you really wanted them. At that time people were acquiring epics...jade maces were good at first but were quickly given to alts as players got upgrades. We have a difference of opinion on what was "Amazing" I think.
Zorkon said:THIS is a good example of why I would like a controlled PVP type server... a guy like described above would be the type to be in negative player faction and have a bounty on his head... In that case I would wait till he attacked the mob then gank his butt, call in the troupes and we would have a slaughter fest.
This would be an amazing idea if it weren't for one glaring flaw...if you can put a bounty on anyone then you will have people putting random bounty's on other people for no reason at all. You could do a situation where if a player gets reported enough over a period of time he gets a flag over his head or something of the like and it makes him fair game. PvP server or not. But even that would be abused by people. It's hard finding a cure for this situation without creating a myriad of other problems. Hopefully the servers will be small enough so that what you do and how you handle yourself actually matters. Too many times there are servers flooded with people and things like this are a lot more likely to slip through the cracks.
As for what I would do in this situation...I'd compete like heck for the kill. And if I couldn't get it then I'd either call in a friend or train them. I know training is frowned upon but there are times it's necessary
BeaverBiscuit said:
My point being, That wasn't even the only "bad" thing I did, which by all rights should have ruined my reputation. Yet-I never ran into these bad reputation issues you mentioned. People who just don't care, due to age or personality or whatever, DO exist. Reputation hits do not always happen, even if they should, and the offender may or may not care about the social consequences of their actions in the first place. I had plenty of fun stealing powerful things and then using those to self twink. You could even say that this playstyle made me MORE desirable in groups, though it's impossible to say if people kept me in their group due to gear or just wanting another person. The person I'm scared of when I call for things like a PnP, is usually my younger self....I know that person and what he's capable of quite well.
A lot of times people doing those types of things regularly don't realize they are being blacklisted. The smaller the community the more noticable. But in EQ many many times people set LFG that had bad reputations. They may not have known that's why they were always LFG but I know on many occasions when looking for a rep and discussing it with group members they would say no don't get them, get something else if you have to. They would rather make it work with a different class than give the bad reputation having person a group.
It may sound small and insignificant but like I said if the community is small enough it can make a rather large impact.
If this becomes at all common I log off and never return if VR will not help the players inforce camps and let it be Wild wild west of most DPS wins there are no camps, I have no time or money for them hope others would do the same.
Camps are a very amorphous concept and even if VR wanted to it might be impossible to determine who had the "camp" first, whether someone else was "stealing" from the same camp, whether group one had abandoned the camp, just what abandoning a camp means and the like. There are also different types of camps - if I am camping mobs for drops and experience I feel differently about someone taking trash mobs than if I am camping for a name that I hope will spawn and someone takes trash mobs. A casual passerby who needs mobs for a quest may have no idea what I am there for.
I can also argue that camping mobs needed for a quest just in order to get experience and loot is ruder than camp-stealing since it prevents people from doing their quests. That quest mobs should not be "campable" at all.
Best IMO if "camps" are left as something to be enforced, or not, by the community and VR focuses on outright griefing and other more serious and perhaps clear-cut issues.
Which does not mean that killstealing should not be a violation. If you are camping a boss and it spawns and someone else runs over and deliberately steals it - that is a different matter from you camping trash mobs and someone comes over and takes a few.
BeaverBiscuit said:Porygon said:But dont discount reputation on pve servers. I have seen players in eq1 be entirely boycotted from groups, buffs, rezzes etc. Its a hard game to play when you cant rez your corpses.
Hmm im curious if you were in a big guild or something?
Check out this story of mine:
EQ was big when I was a kid, and being a kid I wasn't always a top morals player. I think A crowning jewel here was a time when I was a level 20 or so bard in Karnor's castle (a level 40 something area) and some rare no drop bracer dropped for a group that I wasn't involved with that CANT be used by bards. The group was just sitting there rolling on the bracer. I checked the corpse, saw a nice item, and took it(again, I consider this especially nasty since I couldn't use it). The group did what you might expect, threatening to train and report and what have you. I logged out. Logged in the next day, no gm convo or warnings or whatever, and when I stuck around in karnor's for a while I didn't get yelled at by anyone. When I went to my regular leveled areas I also never ran into any social issues. I wasn't in a guild and didn't really mind it that way-I was a kid, but again I don't remember any of my questionable antics every coming back to me in any conversation.
My point being, That wasn't even the only "bad" thing I did, which by all rights should have ruined my reputation. Yet-I never ran into these bad reputation issues you mentioned. People who just don't care, due to age or personality or whatever, DO exist. Reputation hits do not always happen, even if they should, and the offender may or may not care about the social consequences of their actions in the first place. I had plenty of fun stealing powerful things and then using those to self twink. You could even say that this playstyle made me MORE desirable in groups, though it's impossible to say if people kept me in their group due to gear or just wanting another person. The person I'm scared of when I call for things like a PnP, is usually my younger self....I know that person and what he's capable of quite well.
I understand the point you are making but I don't feel it hits the mark.
Reputation only matters when you are established in the community. That takes time.
Im sure the group was upset at you but you were looting a mid lvl item. The reason why there was no repercussion is because it didn't really matter so you didn't notice any backlash. If you had been on a high end raid and ninja looted a rare drop item I guarantee you it would have been different.
When using early EQ as an example, mid level players...even high level players that didn't raid... always had a difficult time earning reputation because they were never participating in challenging content that people really cared about.
AbsoluteTerror said:WOW....im shock!
25% player going to "Report them" .....I guess they dont make thickskin MMO players anymore
I guess VR going to have to make all these Drop Rare/Exclusive that it cant be sell or trade.
Or we are just sick of the toxic players and the gaming companys that allow it. The goal is a PVE cooperative gameplay that means we need law and order. Players going rogue and running trains is just as bad as the ones that dont think they need to follow standard social rules like waiting in line. Your not special your mom lied to you.
I am all for more no drop, locked corpses if you did not help kill your group your raid you cant loot. If that is what it will take to stop the perma camps from one small group of players the boss stealing ect.
My reaction would be based on the rules of the game. If there is a play nice policy allowing me to claim a camp for a named mob simply by being there first and that policy is backed by the development team then I would inform the other player they are breaking server policy and report them if they didn't change their behavior. But I hope the rules on issues like this are clearly defined and directly enforced. However, in the same way that hardcore pvp is opt in via server choice, I would prefer to see a hardcore play nice policy to be a server opt in.
Gottbeard said:My reaction would be based on the rules of the game. If there is a play nice policy allowing me to claim a camp for a named mob simply by being there first and that policy is backed by the development team then I would inform the other player they are breaking server policy and report them if they didn't change their behavior. But I hope the rules on issues like this are clearly defined and directly enforced. However, in the same way that hardcore pvp is opt in via server choice, I would prefer to see a hardcore play nice policy to be a server opt in.
I like the play nice policy but maybe make it opt out have some No rules servers PvP no camps no play nice do what you want. you could even give players the choice to move to said server or be banned.
Something like all your chacters have been moved to the Waste Lands server this account can no longer make chacters on any other realm. If you do not agree to this Click here and your account will be closed.
Vixx said:If this becomes at all common I log off and never return if VR will not help the players inforce camps and let it be Wild wild west of most DPS wins there are no camps, I have no time or money for them hope others would do the same.
Interesting, I’m the exact opposite. I hate PvP in battlegrounds, but love it in the open world. To me, it adds to the complexity of the game, it forces (or encourages) group play to be safe in the wild. The first 12 months of both WoW and EQ2 did this very well. Today, they are terribly managed, though. I don’t even care if there are rewards or tracked stats for PvP. I just want the option to kill an opposing faction. Orcs should always hate humans!
Having said that, I see why a lot of people don’t like open world PvP. Thus, PvE only servers solve this.
However, regardless how one feels about all this, I personally hate the idea of camping boss for long stretches. I remember camping for hours and hours in EQ1, while it seemed fun at the time, this isn’t 1999 anymore. It’s an out dated game mechanic that I would assume very few people want. I don’t want non-stop action all the time, but I also don’t want my limited 4 to 5 hour play session to be sitting a waiting for more the 15-20 minutes.
If there are open world (non-instanced bosses) then anyone that tags it should get some sort of credit for the kill. Expecting people to patiently wait in line to kill a mob at a time when internet trolls and middle school kids flood every mmo is just not a realistic expectation.
I spent a great detail in other posts about there being a need for a mechanic or a encounter lock for engagements.
The outcome of not having coded solutions , no matter how you want to try and explain it boils down to a bunch of IFs' , and the ability and real cost associated with the need to enforce a play nice policy. This and the flat out promotion to a degree via skills and abilitys is the making of toxic game play enviroment compared to a first to engage or encounter lock system.
Theres alot of view points based on the type of gamer , view on the game be it competitive or social and also what game you came from. Ie eq respected camps in general , in FF you where expected to be competitive or viewed as a scrub.
There just dif. perspectives , what you are failing to realize is this game will be a mix of all those other game types and players , if you like it or not.
The thing is Pantheon is NOT EQ , FF , Rift , WOW or whatever game you want it to be a spirtual following of and the next best thing since sliced bread ... it will be Pantheon and how enforcement is handled on issues be it social , server or gm or nothing at all even will depict the type of "game" this will be everything else is BS.