Zorkon said:I would first compete for the camp (I dident see that as a twitterpoll option) and if I lose then move on to another camp or otherwise find something else to do
This is not a big enough deal to bother a GM with or expect any VR intervention.
THIS is a good example of why I would like a controlled PVP type server... a guy like described above would be the type to be in negative player faction and have a bounty on his head... In that case I would wait till he attacked the mob then gank his butt, call in the troupes and we would have a slaughter fest.
Great answer :)
dorotea said:If all else fails I will try to get the boss I was after despite them, while mentioning what they are doing on world chat. And if they are in a guild mentioning the guild's name.
Based on the rules of most games I won't report them since camp stealing is not a violation - nor is rudeness. Obviously we don't know the Pantheon code of conduct yet.
I won't train them - I would rather lose a camp than resort to pvp on a pve server. I have often said that the game mechanics shouldn't permit training - I expect no luck arguing that issue but I still refuse to do it deliberately despite the provocation.
One reason for multiple characters - I will probably have a few more with things to do that I can switch to.
Another great answer :)
I would ponder the definition of Kilsin says: "ruins the fun and entertainment of other players"
One time in EQ one of my friends who was much lower level than I was trying to camp an area and another player kept coming in and stealing his kills. He asked for my help, so I came all the way out to where he was and grouped with him helping to secure the kills on mobs to deter the kill stealer hoping he would just go away when he was no longer able to steal the kills. The Kill stealer then reported me to a GM and I was given a warning on my account saying that I "Used my higher level to kill the monsters in the area and 'ruined the fun an entertainment of other players'." I tried to explain that I was only helping my friend get kills from a kill stealer, but according to that GM, it was my actions that were ruining the fun and entertainment of the kill stealer, and not the kill stealer who was ruining the fun and entertainment of my friend.
Ever since that day, I have always cringed whenever I hear this statement. I think that this kind of thing needs to be clearly defined, since Kill Stealing does seem to fit with Ruining the fun of the player who is the victim of that kill stealing. From what Kilsin has said, my actions in my above example is the prefered way they would like us to deal with the situation, My friend used his community to get help. So I would hope that if we did something similar in Pantheon we would not get a GM warning for it.
I see a lot of Pvp solution, but I'm quite wondering about the perenity of that solution at least for PVP servers.
What if the guy is just overgearing/skilling/levelling you, and end up beating you to hell ?
What if the guy call his friends/guild and you remain an isolated player ?
What if in the end, Pvp or not Pvp, the guy who acted rude get the upper hand, the camp and such ?
I mean, it's fantasizing to imagine a situation where a wrong player get punished by players in Pvp mode, but what if you end up punished by the sole same system, and because it's the conflict solution on thoses servers, you end up beeing made wrong as the looser and he ends up beeing made right as the winner, despite beeing in your right at first ?
@Mauv I guess on a PvP server anything goes. On a pve server anything goes as far as kill stealing or a couple "accidental" trains but if the training becomes a repeated offense then it is griefing and can be handled by a gm at their discretion.
I think more often than not a player will be better off moving on than trying to fight for a camp.
Like most games, keep the camp you are camping clear and there won't be any issues.
Dashed said:My huge and mega problem with the concept of the original post is that it seems only the oldest school generation seems to even know what a camp is. Tell ya what; not once do I recall seeing the word "camp" used in WoW, SWTOR, GW2, Warhammer Online, and a few other games. I feel there is a language and concept barrier between EQ vanilla players and any player after ohhh about 2004. Calling down the wrath of the guilds onto a newer gen player that has never even heard of the word "camp" is a big concern to me. Many EQ concepts actually are, if not outright obsolete, at least not implemented in newer MMOs. Expecting the 15 YO who has only ever played Black Desert Online to have some form of intuitive osmosis-like ability to comprehend the concept of a camp is at the very least laughable.
Training from level 1 has to be in place to condition players to this concept first off. Game mechanics that promote good "Camp" behaviour should be present from level 2 onward ( maybe lower drop/money/XP rewards) for more recent arrivals to a specific location w/o harming the original person at that specific camp.
Mate I never really actually thought about that. But when you spell it out for me, it's 100% true when you say EQ Vanilla is really one of the only MMO's I can think of with "Camps".
Well said, and honestly i'm not sure of a solution myself.
Every mob in the game is free for anyone to attack. As such, all decisions will carry weight in terms of risk vs reward. Does it make sense to compete, or would I be better off establishing a foothold elsewhere? There are a lot of variables that come into play here. How long will it take for my group to relocate to another area that offers similar value? What players are involved in the situation at hand, and how will my decisions affect my reputation? Do I want to be known as someone that will always leave when others try to push me around? Am I willing to stay, even with a reduction to efficiency in my session, just to prove a point? When it comes to invading a camp, is this content really worth competing for? Do I want to get in a standoff situation with other players and just accept that you win some, you lose some? Everybody has different views and priorities. In my opinion, competition should be expected wherever there are NPC's that have long respawn timers. Or, if you consider the "event system" that Brad alluded to in one of his blog entries, I will absolutely want to be involved with those events if/when they occur.
At the end of the day, it's all about efficiency. Time is our most precious resource and knowledgeable players will make the most out of their time spent in game. Sometimes it's better to pack up and move along and not let your pride interfere with that. When it comes to reputation, maybe it is worth fighting for your camp. Or, if you are the group leader, maybe it's all about squeezing as much efficiency out of your session as possible. There is no universal answer, but more often than not, I think players will have favorable interactions when they demonstrate a clear understanding of how to best leverage the collective time of those they are grouped with. There should be a lot of thought and care that goes into planning out your session but it's also really important to be able to overcome any unexpected obstacles along the way. This isn't a black and white issue ... context means everything. One idea that I am a really big fan of is having a special ruleset part-time PVP server. PVE rules are enforced 5-6 days a week. On Wednesday/Saturday (or maybe a single day that has some fluctuation from week to week), PVP rules apply. This would create a really interesting dynamic when it comes to player reputation because how you act during each interim will have an impact on it's counterpart. The ideas of meaningful reputation and community enforcement would be infinitely more appealing to me in that kind of environment.
Dashed said:My huge and mega problem with the concept of the original post is that it seems only the oldest school generation seems to even know what a camp is. Tell ya what; not once do I recall seeing the word "camp" used in WoW, SWTOR, GW2, Warhammer Online, and a few other games. I feel there is a language and concept barrier between EQ vanilla players and any player after ohhh about 2004.
I would just like to point out that I'm pretty sure the term Camp, as in sitting on a mobs spawn to kill it over and over again was coined in UO (Ultima Online) and then also widely used in EQ vanilla, the term camping was also used in DAoC exactly like UO and EQ, and even in WoW vanilla one would refer to camping a quest mob etc. much after that and yeah...maybe not much I agree.
Tal
Zorkon said:THIS is a good example of why I would like a controlled PVP type server... a guy like described above would be the type to be in negative player faction and have a bounty on his head... In that case I would wait till he attacked the mob then gank his butt, call in the troupes and we would have a slaughter fest.
I would like to strongly second this!
A limited discouraged PvP server would be the ideal world to play in.
PvP, but with consequences that add up, and become a huge burden if done too often.
PvP keeps players respectful of each other (mostly). (If you know pissing someone off might result in them killing you, you would most often treat them with respect.)
I would love to see a limited PvP server. I would pick it every time over an FFA PvP server or a pure PvE server.
Tal
I would try and talk with them and see if they wanted to group up if it looked like they were moving in on my camp.
If someone tried to push me off an established camp with force I would, of course, DPS race them to try and hold my camp with brute force.
If I lost the dps race I would evaluate if it was worth calling in friends or not, would depend on what I was camping for and how the player was acting.
If I decided to just leave I would write down their name and add it to my $h!t list. ( If your on the list good luck getting into a group I am leading or even just in.)
If they are in a guild and really rude I may contact their guild just as an FYI to let them know, hey you got an a$$-hat in your guild.
Might tell everyone in a zone/area that they are a camp stealing POS if anyone wants to return the favor and take the camp they are free to it.
Tal
I'm not sure if anyone played on Karana server for vanilla EQ (I can't honestly remember what Karana merged with as its no longer a server) but they had a rotational setup for guilds. So for Kunark epic mobs, PoFear raids, Vox/Naggy, NToV, Yelniak and Zlandicar were some of the rotational mobs.If a smaller guild failed at the attempt there was usually a much stronger guild ready for the pickings. This was all run by the playersand there was requirments before you could be added to the rotation.
It had its pro's and cons. Majority of the larger guilds thought it was a garbage system, but all the mid/smaller guilds loved it. The gap between the top tier raiding guilds and the casual/fun guilds is massive. With top tier being able to scout out a spawn, hit the batphone, mobilise a force and be looting the corpse in less than half an hour. Smaller guilds can NEVER compete without a rotational system.
Wether its the perfect answer and is something Pantheon needs, I don't know. I truly dont know what the "Perfect" system is.
Kilsin said:disposalist said:Queue jumping is rude. Ignoring you is rude. The poll doesn't really cover all the options to respond to that, but for those not on Twitter the poll options (and current vote percentages) are: -
45% Train them27% Report them06% Log off22% Find something else to doWhether they get reported or not surely depends upon if there is a Play Nice Policy. If there isn't it's pointless reporting them, because it's not considered something the GMs would be interested in.
If there is a decent PNP then it will cover incidents like the above. If it's outside the PNP, players should report it, otherwise they should compete as the PNP allows.
I find it depressing most would train them. Piling rudeness on rudeness is a recipe for escalation into a toxicity. It's understandable, I suppose, but passive-Aggressive 'PvP' on a PvE server is a bit of a sad thing to become a legit 'solution' to undesirable behaviour.
Personally, I would report them (if it's against PNP) and compete against them and, if that failed, I'd move on, but it would leave a sour taste to be rudely muscled off a camp.
I would hope that if a multitude of reports build up against someone then action would eventually be taken.
I like open world because it gives opportunities to play alongside and help others, not so I can push people off content they are enjoying. I don't need to stop someone else playing in order to enjoy the game.
There have already been multiple threads about this kind of issue, so I don't want to start another innevitable argument. We all know some enjoy contention and even conflict and some don't.
I will simply cross my fingers that VR plan to use their experience to make plans to avoid toxicity.
I get to include 4 options with a Twitter poll man, there was at least 2-3 answer I would have liked to include but couldn't so this is just a "what if" scenario with limited options to see what people would choose.
Yeah understood, Kils. It's a great discussion maker and the options sure do cover the extremes ;)
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that so far you seem to be ok with the equivalent of the bigger kid pushing the little one off their swing, though. Especially when you also seem to agree with the answer being for the little kids to fetch his friends to push the bigger kid of the swing. A recipe for escalating conflict and some kids ending up in Accident and Emergency.
Unless by "good answer" in a couple of posts here you just mean "you expressed your opinion well" not "that is a good solution".
Like I said, I wouldn't expect GMs to get called for every time someone is a rude bully in the game, but I also would hope that behaviour isn't implicitly condoned by there being no guidance from VR or even there being guidance that indicates it's fine.
You will end up with a few happy bullies, a lot of irritated 'normal' players and a slow build of ill feeling and toxicity as those two 'sides' frequently conflict.
Kilsin said:Scenario: You're happily camping a named mob after waiting patiently to get the camp from someone else, along comes a random player who just starts competing for the named spawn without saying anything, you kindly ask them to stop and they ignore you - what do you do?
I would simply continue hunting, because named mobs won't spawn in static locations with static respawn timers, right? Because in 2020, that will just be downright silly.
But presuming visionary realms won't be using dynamic locations and dynamic respawn timers; If they're not breaking the TOS or EULA, there is exactly nothing I would do, because there is exactly nothing I could do.
This is why First-To-Engage, Locked Encounters, and/or Most-Damage-Done needs to be public design goals from the start, so customers can make an informed decision regarding if they want their play time negatively influenced by other players, or not.
EDIT: Also wanted to add, if Quest updates are done by damage done, rather than kill credit, then who cares? And if loot is personal and/or procedural based on loadout (Like Project Gorgon) then again, who cares? That's why games have used these modern mechanics, because it removes all this social toxicity.
Erm ... don't mean to be negative, but a lot of people have paid to be able to give support and input on these forums. Polls don't come along often and it would be nice to be able to vote without having to sign up to a third party social media site. There may even be some with twitter accounts who don't want there actual life/job to be compromised by revealing a twitter handle. This is something to think about for the future.
As for the subject itself I believe the community as a whole has become, well older, I would hope more mature too since EQ and Vanguard. As such I imagine most people would simply walk away after a conversation. If it happens repeatedly his/her name will be mud and thus won't last long in a game which rewards social inetraction.
Blood.
I agree that if VR wants to conduct a poll it would be nice if they did it here not on Twitter.
But in support of what they are doing - maybe this forum doesn't handle polls well. More likely they value detailed answers with discussion and figure that if they have a poll here too many of us will just vote and move on, whereas on Twitter yes/no is the best they are likely to get.
I spent years on Dark Age of Camelot (DAOC) and camping was a basic player concept just as in EQ. Camp stealing was not reportable but was considered a serious violation of game mores. At least if done deliberately. When I moved on it took me quite a while to realize that in newer MMOs the player base didn't react with revulsion to camp stealers.
BamBam said: I hope VR implements solutions for me to use in situations like this. Since there's no obvious "perfect" solutions. Eighter you fight for your camp and maybe lose the race, els it can end up in a train situation where no one is having fun. Or I leave and then the guy wins, witch also would be sad. Since he then get rewarded from he's bad behaviour. I guess I could ask a mate to come and help, but that is time computing and maybe im deep in a dungeon and it is not even possible for him to get in on he's own.
That's why you get a friend who don't mind dealing with people like this, then you can call on your friend to do the dirty work. :P
I like to look at it like a Cop and a Robber. The robber is using a gun for violence and the cop is using the gun for a deterrent/protection/public service.
Same tools (gun) are being used but for different purposes.
Oh....and yeah, like others, I don't twitter.
I don't facebook.
I don't snapshot or Instagram either.
I do support Pantheon, that's why I'm here.
It would be nice if those of us that don't needlessly put personal info on the web could also do the polls.
Does the forum not support polls well? Or does it not really matter because you're mostly just trying to keep the name Pantheon in peoples minds who are not as devoted as the folks here on the forums.
If so, I get it.
Tal
One Solution is to set the precedence of using Camp Checks in the community early on. I think this can be a huge factor in preemptively dealing with camp stealing issues.
This will make newer players aware that camps are a thing. It lets people know that someone is already at an area so they don't have to waste time going there only to find it camped. It sets a precedence of comminication.
Of course not everyone will use CC...but if even half of the players use it on a consistant basis it will become the norm. I'd like to encourage everyone to use it early and often in the beginning so that maybe it will catch on.
Talonguard said:PvP, but with consequences that add up, and become a huge burden if done too often.
I would love to see a "karma" rating for players. If you kill someone more than x levels below you, you gain points. If you kill the same player repeatedly, you gain Points after the 2nd or so odd time.
Other players could view this, and determine whether they wanted to attack you.
It could decay over time.
It would make people think twice about their actions...
There isn't much you can do really unless PNP forbids KS'ing and you can report. outside of that, I dunno. Roll a wizard or Monk as main. high dps or FD train.
Sadly Even if I shout" Bob is trying to steal my camp that I have been at for 3 hours"
General chat: "smart remark... blah blah blah"
Next day, no one cares that bob was a jerkoff, he gets a group and moves on and I lost my camp....
Honestly, if I can't win the DPS battle. I will likely train them, even if it causes me to die as well. I will be a cleric, so I can ress myself. And being cleric, I seriously doubt winning any DPS battles.
I would also add bob to the never ress, never group list and likely his entire guild as well if he is in one. Would also tell guild leader that his entire guild is on a Do Not ress list.
Maybe I would get lucky and my entire guild would also put bob and his guild on their own list. I would even go so far as to not allow bob and his entire guild in a group that I made.
Maybe even shout it that way: Frog Camp Looking for DPS, "insert guild name" is not welcome, do not apply.
that way, people will ask why, and I can continue to tell people how bob was a KS'ing jerkoff and hope rep matters.