dorotea said:I agree that if VR wants to conduct a poll it would be nice if they did it here not on Twitter.
But in support of what they are doing - maybe this forum doesn't handle polls well.
The fact that the "developer forums", which supporters were invited to use, weren't created with polls in mind is slightly worrisome.
But maybe the new forums that are coming out Soon™ will have the capability.
Tralyan said:The fact that the "developer forums", which supporters were invited to use, weren't created with polls in mind is slightly worrisome.
But maybe the new forums that are coming out Soon™ will have the capability.
I think they get more feedback on the forums than they would ever get from a poll. And I dont realistically think the answers to a poll are going to change the development of the game.
They are most likely trying to get/keep a presence on social media because a majority of players in the world use some form of it. It's free advertising. And if a twitter poll gets 5 to 10 more people a day looking into the game. Its worth it.
Porygon said:I think they get more feedback on the forums than they would ever get from a poll. And I dont realistically think the answers to a poll are going to change the development of the game.
They are most likely trying to get/keep a presence on social media because a majority of players in the world use some form of it. It's free advertising. And if a twitter poll gets 5 to 10 more people a day looking into the game. Its worth it.
I think this is what is going on. More marketing then anything else. But care should be taken on public polls because it may backfire. Example, majority forumn posts I think are older people who don;t use or have stopped using social media(I don't have facebook anymore and never had a Twitter account) and seem to be the type who would report then move on without conflict whereas this public poll is on a platform where more younger people spend their time but at the same time shows huge support for retaliatory griefing which may turn off some future players as the community being toxic like League of Legends, but hey we still play league tho right :)
Porygon said:Tralyan said:The fact that the "developer forums", which supporters were invited to use, weren't created with polls in mind is slightly worrisome.
But maybe the new forums that are coming out Soon™ will have the capability.
I think they get more feedback on the forums than they would ever get from a poll. And I dont realistically think the answers to a poll are going to change the development of the game.
They are most likely trying to get/keep a presence on social media because a majority of players in the world use some form of it. It's free advertising. And if a twitter poll gets 5 to 10 more people a day looking into the game. Its worth it.
You're most likely right. I'm just salty and want a cigarette.
As a gaming masochist of sorts I like playing content in fun challenging ways, for example soloing in a game that is predominantly made for grouping. I do not, however, consider camp/kill stealers to be both fun AND challenging so:
I report him, complete with video/pictures. I also report it to the surrounding players/guild officers of the person in question. I wait a bit and find something else to do (viva multiple consoles/monitors!). Problem not responded to in a couple hourse? I go camp somewhere else or continue doing whatever I was doing on my other console/monitor. Problem not responded to favorably or at least reasonably even after a week or so? Out of sheer millenial angst I:
Fortunately, in the current market full of great games i rarely really really like the game over all others, if it allows such an obvious breach of etiquette between players without even administering a warning after a week.
Tralyan said:dorotea said:I agree that if VR wants to conduct a poll it would be nice if they did it here not on Twitter.
But in support of what they are doing - maybe this forum doesn't handle polls well.
The fact that the "developer forums", which supporters were invited to use, weren't created with polls in mind is slightly worrisome.
But maybe the new forums that are coming out Soon™ will have the capability.
We had Polls and groups and video sharing and post counts with achievements et.c all took away from the goal of providing a designated place to discuss Pantheon while we are in development. All of those, mainly the Polls and Groups took away from that quite considerably, the quality of content just to spam a poll and become popular was very poor and people spent more time trying to earn achievements or get their poll noticed than they did discuss Pantheon in any meaningful way, so they were removed and will not return.
This has been discussed before to mate. We will not be enabling Polls on the new forums either unless they are issued by a VR staff member with permission to poll the community for feedback, we prefer you folks reply by text posts and explain your thoughts, replies, reasoning, answers for things than just checking a box with a brief description of the answer.
I use polls on Twitter every now and then to be more interactive with my CM content, they are not official polls for feedback though, so don't think that those limited 4 options to answer are going to make or break the game, they have no impact at all other than getting to know our community better and giving you folks a platform to voice your opinion with your friendly CM. :)
Thanks Kilsin.
Wanting in depth discussion not snap answers here makes perfect sense, as discussed a page or two above.
Using social media just to keep our name visible to those not already in this elite group (chuckles) also makes sense.
Some game companies use "social media" to do things that belong on their forums, to the disgust of the people using the forums. That history may have something to do with any hostility towards polls on Twitter but it doesn't seem to be what VR is doing here.
Just to inform and amuse those interested .
The twitter poll says 50 % would train and 25 % would report . Let us suppose that people who voted there were in majority people who intend to play Pantheon . I do not think that it is a very irrealistic hypothesis .
In this case if we take an overall 200 000 population on Pantheon when it goes live and want to know an answer on some question via a poll with 95 % confidence and a 3 % confidence interval then the necessary sample size is 781 . (Note : the results by taking 300 000 or 400 000 the total Pantheon population would not be very different, the confidence interval would just increase slightly)
As 846 people answered the poll, it is largely above the necessary sample size so that we can say with 95 % certainty that :
- people who would train would be between 47 % and 53 % of the overall population
- people who would report would be between 22 % and 28 % of the population
This says unambiguously that trains are something that a largest portion of future Pantheon players considers as a legitimate way to deal with Kill stealers .
This says also that if reporting the kill stealing was not an option (for example no PNP) a fourth of the population would be distributed among the other options what would increase the "training is a legitimate and efficient" tool farther .
Finally it says that if it is not dealt with à priori, training might be an issue in future Pantheon because a majority of players has apparently no philosophical or existential problems with it .
@deadshade
the Reason everyone picks that option (training) is the fact that no other game has ever has guides or GM's that actually police anything.
if Pantheon doesn't want training, they would need a PnP that covers KS'ing and would also need nearly instant customer services that would remove the individual from the area.
Training is really the ONLY retaliation you can do on a PVE server. You can't PVP them. (a wizard would own me as a cleric anyways, so thats a good thing) most expect GMs/Guides to either not be there or not care, so you do what you are left with. Training is that one things where you can say F U for taking my spawn that I have had for the last 4 hours. ...
Kilsin said:Tralyan said:dorotea said:I agree that if VR wants to conduct a poll it would be nice if they did it here not on Twitter.
But in support of what they are doing - maybe this forum doesn't handle polls well.
The fact that the "developer forums", which supporters were invited to use, weren't created with polls in mind is slightly worrisome.
But maybe the new forums that are coming out Soon™ will have the capability.
We had Polls and groups and video sharing and post counts with achievements et.c all took away from the goal of providing a designated place to discuss Pantheon while we are in development. All of those, mainly the Polls and Groups took away from that quite considerably, the quality of content just to spam a poll and become popular was very poor and people spent more time trying to earn achievements or get their poll noticed than they did discuss Pantheon in any meaningful way, so they were removed and will not return.
This has been discussed before to mate. We will not be enabling Polls on the new forums either unless they are issued by a VR staff member with permission to poll the community for feedback, we prefer you folks reply by text posts and explain your thoughts, replies, reasoning, answers for things than just checking a box with a brief description of the answer.
I use polls on Twitter every now and then to be more interactive with my CM content, they are not official polls for feedback though, so don't think that those limited 4 options to answer are going to make or break the game, they have no impact at all other than getting to know our community better and giving you folks a platform to voice your opinion with your friendly CM. :)
Thanks for the post, Kilsin. Don't mind me. I shouldn't visit forums (or leave the house) when I'm cranky.
Why not have an in game mechanic to allow players to claim a camp? Something like planting a flag, input the mob's name on it, and other people could check for them with /flags. Whenever anything spawns with the specific name, it's automatically tagged for the player/group with the flag planted. Someone trains the flag holder and steals the mob, credit/loot still goes to flag holder, even if they have to run back to loot. If someone else comes along and wants to contest the camp, they can issue a duel through the flag that if they or their group win, or the duel goes without response or gets cancelled, the camp flag disappears. If the flag holder gets trained and killed before the flag challenge, they have a window of opportunity to return to the zone and answer the challenge. After say, a fifteen minute cooldown for the challenger and twenty for beaten challengee, they can replant the flag. If something spawns while the camp flag is on cooldown, it's free for all (maybe the loser rallied some friends). Maybe there's an option when interacting with the flag to join the camper's group and get in line to pass the flag ownership down the waiting list? Maybe some kind of built in loot share option where people can pre-roll for different drops from the same mob?
Call it flag twirling or Columbusing.
I realize that's mostly off-topic, but I enjoy problem solving. Preempting the problem often leads to the best solutions. More work for the devs though. I just don't trust people to do what I consider the "right" thing, since opinions on correctness vary widely. Of course, camps could all be handled by the community without any in-game mechanics, but we all know how messy that can/will get from the comments and polling data here. I realize some people are vehemently opposed to any new systems as well. Feel free to tell me why this is a bad idea.
DagNabbit said:Why not have an in game mechanic to allow players to claim a camp? Something like planting a flag, input the mob's name on it, and other people could check for them with /flags. Whenever anything spawns with the specific name, it's automatically tagged for the player/group with the flag planted. Someone trains the flag holder and steals the mob, credit/loot still goes to flag holder, even if they have to run back to loot. If someone else comes along and wants to contest the camp, they can issue a duel through the flag that if they or their group win, or the duel goes without response or gets cancelled, the camp flag disappears. If the flag holder gets trained and killed before the flag challenge, they have a window of opportunity to return to the zone and answer the challenge. After say, a fifteen minute cooldown for the challenger and twenty for beaten challengee, they can replant the flag. If something spawns while the camp flag is on cooldown, it's free for all (maybe the loser rallied some friends). Maybe there's an option when interacting with the flag to join the camper's group and get in line to pass the flag ownership down the waiting list? Maybe some kind of built in loot share option where people can pre-roll for different drops from the same mob?
Call it flag twirling or Columbusing.
I realize that's mostly off-topic, but I enjoy problem solving. Preempting the problem often leads to the best solutions. More work for the devs though. I just don't trust people to do what I consider the "right" thing, since opinions on correctness vary widely. Of course, camps could all be handled by the community without any in-game mechanics, but we all know how messy that can/will get from the comments and polling data here. I realize some people are vehemently opposed to any new systems as well. Feel free to tell me why this is a bad idea.
If I loved one thing about Everquest it was the freedom the player had to do whatever he or she wanted.
Buff a mob? You can.
Kill a guard in your own city? You can.
Build up faction with those nasty goblins? You can.
Every unneeded ruleset just destroys it. So please no.
Sure pushing a group or an individual out of a camp isn't nice and you can really ruin their day but the community will deal with it in one way or the other (as the poll showed - and there are a lot more way to ruin their day if they ruin yours) without an additional ruleset. I know that sounds cheesy but once you got slaped on every cheek you have, you have to show them that this kind of behaviour is not welcome.
If camps are enforced by EULA then you can report him.
If not then it is part of gameplay as intended and that person is doing nothing wrong. the 'laws' of the game are set by VR. If the community feels strongly enough about about camps being accepted then we can demand it and if VR decides against it, we can choose another game.
Same thing with training.
I will not steal a camp unless it is an allowed part of gameplay, and, in the context of the game, it is not wrong. (If part of the game is the competition for resources, including mobs, for example.)
I will not train except in self-defense. But quite frankly, if training is OK, well there are plenty of other games.
Competing is one thing, griefing, which includes training, is much more.
The fact that so many people would say that they would respond to someone who wants to apply for the same job as them (fairly competing) by cutting the brakes on their truck (actively trying to bring ruin on another) is disconcerting. The fact that so many see a moral equivalence is moreso.
I think this question is important also because it reminds me how USED to act, ot the only memory I have of the situation I think is right, therefore I respond in the same way.However, if they are newer non-niche players, I feel its my responsibility to pave the way so to speak and perhaps be able to better express or handle a similar situation.
We all know the old problems, and maybe those can be solved with new play or game rules, like roaming or non standard loot tables so there is no "camp" but rather, a chance just by walking into the dungeon, with other rewards for delving in deeper or discovery.
I would like to get deep on this and wonder if the questions is really about how compelling "loot" is or pixels for that matter. How different would the response be if loot or rare item named was out of the picture? if there is a system where loot will not drop off the same named all the time, but can be off different nameds then its just a crowded spot.
johisaac said:Sure pushing a group or an individual out of a camp isn't nice and you can really ruin their day but the community will deal with it in one way or the other (as the poll showed - and there are a lot more way to ruin their day if they ruin yours) without an additional ruleset. I know that sounds cheesy but once you got slaped on every cheek you have, you have to show them that this kind of behaviour is not welcome.
I think this explains the momentum of games over time towards becoming more antisocial. When you have giant guilds, bot farmers, or multi-box swarms with the entire server locked down, they're just chasing all the other players out of the game. Without something built in to impede them, there's no contest. Ruin enough days, and why will the victims waste another day playing something they're blocked from actively playing? I don't see why an additional ruleset that doesn't hamper (and may contribute to) social interaction but does protect players' time investments might be a negative. You said yourself that camp stealing ruins days. Would at least the appearance of competition not balm those wounds? Or are we just looking at another trainfest with whoever can be the biggest jerk coming out on top? That sounds fun... for the jerks.
Here's my question. If we make it so that KSing is against the rules... what defense if any do we have from a RMTer locking down and perma farming certain items or locations.
Before you say anything about banning RMTers... how do you even determine this player is doing that. It's not as easy as you think. With screensharing programs you can have people sharing accounts but never changing ip addresses.
I've personally kept both the efreeti camp and frenzied camps for multiple days just by sleeping for 20mins in between spawn cycles. Setting alarms and waking up to kill mobs as they spawn.
I know that people are concerned with other players imposing onto them... but what defense do we as players have against these types of people who will keep something locked down for days and days.
@Porygon That's assuming KSing even functions the same way or is possible. Maybe mobs will be credited on a first-come basis instead of damage done. Maybe neither. Maybe loot will all be lore and account-wide unique. Maybe if you loot something off of a mob, it won't drop for you again for a set amount of time. Maybe no trade gear will not be tradable to someone added to the group after the kill. We've got plenty of maybes.
Systematically supporting abusive behavior over respectful behavior, like EQ did in handling camps, is a recipe for toxicity in the community and a surefire way to alienate players. I'm not saying server communities were 100% toxic, because that's far from the truth. Nor is competition a bad thing. Some of the best solutions to camp problems were constructive community efforts. However, the system itself favored abusive behavior (poll backs this up and seems to assume an environment identical to EQ). Refusing to recognize camps/gear as integral to player progression and the economy because it was too hard to police internally stemmed from glaring design issues. These allowed monopolies on spawns, concentrated resources into fewer hands, and closed paths of access despite players being able to kill the mob themselves (though unable to afford the extortionist campers' rates on even no trade items). That's why I'm arguing that the system itself should foster respect among community members and preempt these issues.
Some people will argue Pantheon needs to be indistinguishable from EQ. Makes me wonder why they want to play Pantheon instead of EQ, since that's a developmental impossibility. I can't understand not wanting Pantheon to be better, especially at fostering a positive community experience. It's a PvE, community-focused game, after all. EQ is an aged forerunner, and while most of us agree it was an exceptional example, Pantheon cannot and should not be the same in every way.
Porygon said:Here's my question. If we make it so that KSing is against the rules... what defense if any do we have from a RMTer locking down and perma farming certain items or locations.
Before you say anything about banning RMTers... how do you even determine this player is doing that. It's not as easy as you think. With screensharing programs you can have people sharing accounts but never changing ip addresses.
I've personally kept both the efreeti camp and frenzied camps for multiple days just by sleeping for 20mins in between spawn cycles. Setting alarms and waking up to kill mobs as they spawn.
I know that people are concerned with other players imposing onto them... but what defense do we as players have against these types of people who will keep something locked down for days and days.
Someone permacamping (for whatever reason) certainly isn't against the rules and isn't really even bad ettiquette. A tad selfish to tie something up for days on end but *shrug*.
Anyway that's nothing like on the same level of nuisance as KSing. I can't remember a single instance of something I wanted to camp having the same person on it for days at a time. Even when it was an epic mob camp people would have shifts you could chat about and work around.
Porygon said:Here's my question. If we make it so that KSing is against the rules... what defense if any do we have from a RMTer locking down and perma farming certain items or locations.
Before you say anything about banning RMTers... how do you even determine this player is doing that. It's not as easy as you think. With screensharing programs you can have people sharing accounts but never changing ip addresses.
I've personally kept both the efreeti camp and frenzied camps for multiple days just by sleeping for 20mins in between spawn cycles. Setting alarms and waking up to kill mobs as they spawn.
I know that people are concerned with other players imposing onto them... but what defense do we as players have against these types of people who will keep something locked down for days and days.
By having multiple versions of FBSS drop in different places in the world and/or be craftable. Could also have delayed lockout timers where if a player has killed mob X more than 10 times (for example) in the past however many hours (24? 48? a whole week?) then they are blocked from engaging/looting for some period of time. At that point you could have camps and have them tuned to so turnover is happening more or less often as desired.
It's not like saying people can't hold camps solves the issue of people dominating camps/areas, it just transfers who is in control to the strongest players (highest level/best geared) at all locations whenever they desire...which is awful for any casual players (less time, not skill) who otherwise would have a chance to hold down valuable camps here and there. In time it extends to twinked characters ousting newer/fresh players which is also not good.
Porygon said:Here's my question. If we make it so that KSing is against the rules... what defense if any do we have from a RMTer locking down and perma farming certain items or locations.
Before you say anything about banning RMTers... how do you even determine this player is doing that. It's not as easy as you think. With screensharing programs you can have people sharing accounts but never changing ip addresses.
I've personally kept both the efreeti camp and frenzied camps for multiple days just by sleeping for 20mins in between spawn cycles. Setting alarms and waking up to kill mobs as they spawn.
I know that people are concerned with other players imposing onto them... but what defense do we as players have against these types of people who will keep something locked down for days and days.
One of the biggest issues I have seen is that game companies are far too hesitant to outright ban players. For those players who camp mobs for days on end a game company could ban them for disruption, or merely port them to the other side of the world. As a player on a PvE server all you've legitimately got is to report the offender to a GM if you aren't going to train mobs on em. I'm not sure if VR is willing to answer this question but I am wondering what sort of rights players have against a company banning them? Can a game company ban you for any reason or is there some sort of law that prevents arbitrary bans? Because in my view it will take some heavy handedness from GMs at times for exactly the issue Porygon mentioned here: it is difficult to prove some of these practices.
No need to ban when they can implement means to force players to leave after some amount of time or otherwise stop being able to kill or loot specific mobs.
Hard to just outright ban players when every ban is a loss in profit, have to be very judicious. That said I don't think there is anything preventing any companies from removing anyone at any time for no reason at all if they so choose. For example the terms of service for this site/Pantheon include:
"Items included in Pledge Packages may be substituted, changed or eliminated at any time for any reason or no reason at the sole discretion of VR.
Access to part or all of the website, PRotF or Pledge Package items may be revoked or suspended at any time for any reason or no reason at the sole discretion of VR.
VR reserves the right to suspend, change, or cease the service (including, but not limited to, the availability of any support, item, function, feature, database, or Content) at any time for any reason or no reason. The Company may also restrict access to parts or all of the website or game without notice or liability."
Idk. I just don't see this ever becoming the common place. Most guilds dont want their members being jerks to the community. Even if it's not against the "rules".
As a very very hardcore gamer, I've never stolen someone's camp. I can't imagine im in the minority. I think most of these concerns can be handled by the community. The first time a new player doesnt get a group invite because they were a jerk, or someone refuses to rez them because of it, I think they will begin to change their actions. Corpse retrieval and exp recovering rezzes are very important. And having difficulty with them because noone likes you will make for a very difficult and lonely game.
There are very few people that want to be outsiders or infamous. I just don't see this developing into the issue most people think it will be.
Porygon said:There are very few people that want to be outsiders or infamous. I just don't see this developing into the issue most people think it will be.
Eh, it was enough of a problem to raise issue and bring about a PNP back in 1999. I can't see it being at all better now, especially with the past decade of MMO conditioning and spreading internet toxicity.
Gordon Wrinn, Internet Relations Manager, Verant Interactive, 3/14/2000Also like any society, we have our underbelly, a relatively small number of people who live to prey upon the honorable. It is frequently the goal of these people to see to their desires, no matter the effect of their actions upon others around them. They are the ones who claim ownership of servers, zones, or spawns, and cause or threaten harm to anyone who does not share their disregard and contempt. They are the ones who live, not to enjoy the game with everyone else, but to enjoy at everyone else’s expense.
For the first few months after EverQuest’s release, we felt that a policy of non-interference in many of these matters was warranted. However, we continued to lose good players. This was not due to any deficiency or dissatisfaction in the game, but due to dissatisfaction with the treatment that they received from their fellow players, and the perceived inability of our Customer Service department to intervene. Late last year, we made a commitment to our players to begin playing an active role in many of these situations.
The intent of these policies is to provide the players with general guidelines for what is or is not acceptable behavior in EverQuest, and give them the opportunity to work out differences prior to involving the EverQuest Customer Service Staff. Naturally, in a game as multifaceted as EverQuest, we are not able to cover every possible issue that could arise as part of these policies. In these cases, it is the spirit of a rule that will prevail over any discrepancies in the letter.
