I raided on two different servers on live during the "classic" era. I killed just about every god and dragon at some point (except for some in Velious), and I killed every one of them during prime time hours or midday on the weekends.
That isn't to say there weren't guilds on other servers that stayed up all night, but p99 is highly concentrated with those players. It isn't representative of how it was back in 1999, nor do I believe its representative of how most servers will be when Pantheon goes live.
It seems like every month a new person migrates over from P99 telling us of all their woes and prophesying how terrible things will certainly happen to Pantheon based on their experiences. We're well aware of how a single EQ server, stuck in time with the biggest neckbeards in EQ history probably isn't indicative of reality outside of that little petri dish.
Dullahan said:That isn't to say there weren't guilds on other servers that stayed up all night, but p99 is highly concentrated with those players. It isn't representative of how it was back in 1999, nor do I believe its representative of how most servers will be when Pantheon goes live.
So true.
Oh I agree with the fact that p99 is a plague. I haven't played there is a long time honestly and my thoughts do not revolve around it at all. I absolutely hated P99. It was however the only classic feel for the most part. Up until end game anyway.
I don't think Pantheon will be P99. I hope not anyway. But even looking at the newest TLP servers it is a lot of the same thing. Thinking that those players won't at least try Pantheon since it is the same type of game would be foolish. They will come here.
Enitzu said:...You basically trash me and my thoughts then get upset when i do the same. ...
The difference is I vehemently opposed your opinions, but I never called you names or insulted you. So "the same" is not how I would describe your reply.
Enitzu said:......The fact that all you want is a remake of EQ with better graphics is what's bad. ...
The (again) flaw in in your logic is assuming what I want and then responding to it. I never once said I want "EQ with better graphics". In fact, in a previous post I commented on this. No, I don't want EQ with better graphics. I would prefer rewinding everything that watered-down original EQ and I could care less about the graphics. In fact, I even commented about this. I've written extensively elswewhere about this and don't feel like retyping it so will try to find it for a future copy/paste. Essentially graphics that are too good have a reverse effect and break immersion because they cause a contradiction in the suspension of disbelief.
Over the years players whined about EQ being too hard and complained until it was made simpler and simpler and then everyone lost interest. What I really want is to undo all those nerfs and misguided changes that were made to appease whiners.
I want full original naked corpse runs, serious death penalties, coin weight, faction, language, food, water, medding, everything.
Liav said:If EverQuest's Advanced Looting system made it into Pantheon I would be happy beyond words.
All of the graphical assets are placeholders for the most part though and it's getting irritating constantly hearing people talk about it.
It may be getting irrtating but this isn't 1999 anymore Graphics do matter in video games and I've been in enough beta's to know that graphic do NOT change that drastically. This time it can be wrote off but the next time they show something they better show something much more visually because remember this game is already dealing with double negatives (may not be fair but that's life).
Thanakos said:Wolfsong said:Thanakos said:I agree with numbers 1 and 2. 2 is especially important for those of us with less time to play than we did 15 years ago. I don't mind levelling slowly. Sitting around trying to find a group is no fun though.
What I don't understand is why people assume there weren't people playing EQ1, UO, AC1, FFXI, etc... who also had lives, families, jobs/careers, going to college, etc. There were. I knew and met many of them myself. Yet they still found time to play, and still managed to achieve what they wanted and enjoy themselves.
A RL friend of mine is married with a child, a full time job, and all the responsibilities that go with it. He managed to put together a group to run a bunch of FFXI's content. They completed Zilart, CoP (pre-nerf), and Aht Urghan, they ran Dynamis, Sky and Sea. They did all kinds of stuff. And they did it all on limited time to play. How? Planning and prioritizing their time.
Meanwhile, I had only a full-time job, but otherwise all the time in the world to play FFXI, and I didn't accomplish even half of what he did. Why? My priorities were different. I was more the type to log in and just do whatever, even if that meant sitting at the stairs by the L. Jeuno Auction House, talking to friends. But that was my playstyle, and I had a blast. I wasn't nearly as focused or motivated as he was.
In my MMO travels through numerous MMOs, I've met business owners, people holding down two jobs and going to school.... all kinds of situations... and they all managed to play the game and get things done.
The difference between them, and others was that they understood their life circumstances would not allow them to play as they could when they were younger, with more time and less responsibility. They understood their time was more limited, and so they realized that they'd have to alter their priorities, adjust their expectations, and plan their time out accordingly. They didn't expect that MMO devs should change their design because they were now grown up and responsible adults - that mentality has always struck me as awfully self-centered, and yet I see it a lot from the adult crowd. Our personal life circumstances are not VR's problem, and it's not their responsibility to design their game to cater to us, just because "we grew up". And yes, I include myself in that "our".
And besides, there are now younger folk coming to the genre who are in the position we once were... young, little responsibility and tons of free time to play. Why shouldn't they get the same experience we did? Why does it all have to change now for us specifically? What makes us so darn special and entitled?
If Pantheon has a pace, or a demand for time that doesn't fall in line with what someone feels they can manage, or even want to.. that's not a sign that the design is flawed and needs to be changed. It's simply a sign that the game may not be a good fit for them, and that's okay.
I don't mind the game being catered more towards the hardcore player. It just really sucks spending 2 hours LFG when you only have 3 to play. I don't even have the answer but I really didn't enjoy having to solo when I had less time to play. That kind of defeats the whole grouping focus of the game.
I guess one way around it is to bring your friends who have have about the same amount of time to play as you. That's probably what I'll do in Pantheon but it's tougher when you can't bring friends along. It's just something for devs to think about. I'm not really asking for any changes.
This post is a lot of what I was getting at with the LFG tool. I don't want something that makes a group for you but giving people the tools to form their own group without the struggle is a benefit to all of us. Sitting in lfg for hours is never fun for anyone and having to solo in a group based game is usually left to only a few classes. If you played cleric or warrior you really didn't have many options to even try it unless mobs were far below your level.
People have been so hardcore against this idea for whatever reason but the only people you hurt are the ones like Thana who don't spend obsurd amounts of hours on every night.
I've been guilty of it in the past. Say in the old days you started looking for people for a group. You always had your go to classes. War/sk/pal for tank, wiz/rogue/monk/mage for dps, cleric for heals. The others were last choices. If someone played necro, well you could forget ever getting those "hey you need a group' tells. It didn't happen. But with the window, I can see all lfg. So if I don't see a mage with a lfg tag but i saw a necro then sure i'd whisper the necro and invite em. DPS isn't much different honestly and long as things are dying idc what class it is. But without the window it would be my last choice to look for. Same goes for heals. Druid can heal just as well usually but you never look for a druid over a cleric.
fazool said:I want full original naked corpse runs, serious death penalties, coin weight, faction, language, food, water, medding, everything.
100% Agree. Those were the days lol :)
Pyde Pyper
fazool said:
I want full original naked corpse runs, serious death penalties, coin weight, faction, language, food, water, medding, everything.
I never said I didn't want these. I do. I have asked for them in numerous games over the years. it's the reason I didn't go to EQ2.
You and I have a lot of the same idea's I think we just go about them in different ways. I don't want to take the things that made EQ great out. I want to add onto them to make it better. I want the game to keep me actively involved during my hours of gameplay. I don't want to be detached from the game while doing something else IRL. If you say different well that is your opinion and I can respect it but it won't change mine.
I mean can you honestly find fault in wanting graphics that aren't from the early 90s? Or a UI that isn't clunky and counter productive? Or having to click 100 times to create items? All this stuff is what creates the tedious boredom that was a part of EQ. It didn't make the game better or fun. It was just something you had to do and once it was done you never touched it again. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to fix some of the things that people felt was wrong with EQ. Fix, not remove.
Strykr619 said:Liav said:If EverQuest's Advanced Looting system made it into Pantheon I would be happy beyond words.
All of the graphical assets are placeholders for the most part though and it's getting irritating constantly hearing people talk about it.
It may be getting irrtating but this isn't 1999 anymore Graphics do matter in video games and I've been in enough beta's to know that graphic do NOT change that drastically. This time it can be wrote off but the next time they show something they better show something much more visually because remember this game is already dealing with double negatives (may not be fair but that's life).
If they were showing beta gameplay rather than pre alpha, I wouldn't even be here. The game would fail horribly. So I do agree with you there. But the gam eis in pre alpha stages and the graphics will change a ton before beta next year. That's why I said I wasn't very worried about it. They have done drastic world changes with the graphics so I have full faith they will do the same with everything else as well.
Enitzu said:1. Looting - In this day and age please for the love of god give me an auto loot. There needs to be a loot window but there really isn't a need for me to have to manually click everything. There also needs to various methods of dealing with loot. IE Master Loot, Free for All, Ordered Looting, etc
I'm for a Loot All button.
Enitzu said:2. LFG System - Original EQ had one of the worst systems ever known, none. Eventually they added in a window that would show anyone with the lfg tag and that is actually what I am recommending here. That system made it super fast and easy to create a group out of nothing. Even if it meant crossing the world to do so. Simple, easy, and effective. We don't need anything extravagent. We just need a way to get a group going quickly. *Note* I do NOT want an instant dungeon group finder. I do NOT want teleports to dungeons. And I most certainly do NOT want easy content. I want a simple way to build a group, that is all.
I'm for a manual LFG tool where you can browse who's LFG, so I agree with what you're saying here.
Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp. If mana regen will be as slow as it was in 99 then I already know that I will be rolling with a group of 2 monks, 2 rogues, 1 tank, and 1 heals. No point in having anything else since it's faster leveling. Now if items will provide mana regen increases or a stat that will do just that then we can work with that but that did not really exist outside of manastones in the original game.
Looking at that book sucked. I was so happy when I hit level 30 and no longer had to look at that thing. I think it was level 30, anyway.
I don't agree with fast mana regen for the sake of progression haste and 4-5 hours for a level later on in the game is WAY too fast. Unless you were in a really good group of people you knew I was fine with it sometimes taking days for a level. I have a professional career these days, family, kids, responsibilities, much you like it sounds but tough luck. I don't want the game where basically you pop in a quarter and you get a level. I'm alright with faster mana regeneration, or stamina regeneration, if you're sitting still or on a mount and aren't moving around but not to a point where you're full of mana or stamina in under a minute. I'm not 100% sure how fast you're talking here, but FM in a minute I think is just too fast. Somewhere around 3 minutes I think would be a sweet spot, but I think even that may be a bit too far on the quick side -- perhaps not. Five minutes would be way too long, I think. Somewhere around current-day EQ regeneration I would be fine with.
Enitzu said:4. Spell Effects - I know it's pre alpha so I don't expect to see them now. The reason I mention this is because in raids some people with lower end PCs have issues with them. However no game imo has really addressed the issue. They give options to turn them off but that is just a quick fix. My suggestion is to make 2 sets, one for normal effects and one for a minimalistic effects. Even if the minimal effects are reused based on common spells types. This allows people to see what is being casted by others but reduces the strain on the system. In small group play this wouldn't be an issue but in large raids it can be.
There will likely be a slider to increase or decrease or outright turn off particle effects. In regular EQ I had particles turned off for other players even when my rig could push hundreds of FPS without blinking just because I wanted to see what was going on in raid settings with people everywhere. Until I began raiding I had them turned on for everyone, then I went a minimalist route.
Enitzu said:5. Graphics - Again pre Alpha so didn't expect much. You guys spent a ton of time on the world and it greatly shows. It looks great and I can't wait to explore it! Now if we could invest that same love into the characters and animations. The melee animations really look like its 99 again. They could use some serious work. Nameplates need some tuning, preferably smaller and more sleek. All in all, give the rest of the game the love that was given to the world and you will see PvE'rs flock here.
Not even pre alpha, pre pre alpha -- lol. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the modeling and such wasn't close to being production level until late beta. I'm agreeing with you here though just the same, the models, animations, what not, need serious work. Fortunately nothing looks like a cartoon like ... well ... just think of just about most MMO's these days, it's terrible.
Enitzu said:6. UI - I know, I know. This is usually the last thing to get overhauled as, from what I hear, it's the easiest to work on and change. But just seeing it makes me cringe. I won't really say more about it since we all know it's a work in progress.
Actually it doesn't bother me that much, but yea I'm sure it'll get worked on as time goes along.
Enitzu said:Now to gameplay things to talk about. Here's where I believe most will want to hang me :PWhile I am a hardcore player at heart who will spend 5-6 hours a night and upwards of 16 hours a day on the weekends in game, I do not agree with fully open world raid bosses. Originally when the kickstarter hit, I was all for it. But after going back to EQ for the Ragefire server, I am 100% against it. Only having bosses in the open world just means that the people who don't have a life and a family and have the ability to batphone in at 4am will have huge advantages against those that can not. Essentially, 1 guild can powerhouse and lock down the entire server if they so choose. It can and does destroy the community and the server affected. It's happened now on 3 servers that I have seen. It's the reason Sony put in instanced versions of the raid targets on the newer TLP servers and the reason P99 has enforced rotations. This system does not work in the modern day gaming world. Having some open world bosses with a timer spawn is good, but you can not have every raid boss set this way. There needs to be a variety of ways for the more casual based guilds to raid as well.
While I never played Vanguard, Kils has talked about Vanguard's system that handles open world raid bosses that sounds like more of a pro than a con so guilds getting cockblocked isn't a major concern. Hopefully we'll see some of that for highly contested targets. /shrug
Vade said:Enitzu said:Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp. If mana regen will be as slow as it was in 99 then I already know that I will be rolling with a group of 2 monks, 2 rogues, 1 tank, and 1 heals. No point in having anything else since it's faster leveling. Now if items will provide mana regen increases or a stat that will do just that then we can work with that but that did not really exist outside of manastones in the original game.Looking at that book sucked. I was so happy when I hit level 30 and no longer had to look at that thing. I think it was level 30, anyway.
I don't agree with fast mana regen for the sake of progression haste and 4-5 hours for a level later on in the game is WAY too fast. Unless you were in a really good group of people you knew I was fine with it sometimes taking days for a level. I have a professional career these days, family, kids, responsibilities, much you like it sounds but tough luck. I don't want the game where basically you pop in a quarter and you get a level. I'm alright with faster mana regeneration, or stamina regeneration, if you're sitting still or on a mount and aren't moving around but not to a point where you're full of mana or stamina in under a minute. I'm not 100% sure how fast you're talking here, but FM in a minute I think is just too fast. Somewhere around 3 minutes I think would be a sweet spot, but I think even that may be a bit too far on the quick side -- perhaps not. Five minutes would be way too long, I think. Somewhere around current-day EQ regeneration I would be fine with.
Finally someone who agrees so I'm not the only one around here.
As for mana regen you and I are on the same page. I as actually looking for more of a 4 minute time frame 0 to full. About 2% mana every 5 seconds. Anything faster than that and it will become too fast towards end game I feel. I even think current EQ is too fast out of combat. But yes, definitely no book. It would be pointless with modern day voip anyway.
This post was edited by Enitzu at March 22, 2016 9:49 AM PDT
You saw the video, it is an approx. idea what to expect with down time. Expect anything more or less? yes because its still a WIP. We havent really alpha tested it yet for them.
They will listen to our concerns and fill the gaps. did you guys actually see a book? ill look at the video again.
Crazzie said:They will listen to our concerns and fill the gaps. did you guys actually see a book? ill look at the video again.
I didn't see a book. I was talking about old EQ's dreaded book that I wanted to torch through my screen if I could have figured out how without hitting 30 first. I think around Luclin or PoP at the latest it got torched, finally.
No there is no book medding that I saw. I did see the book when they showed the spells but not used for medding.
It's still early stages so I don't expect a whole lot right now. I honestly just wanted to post some ideas and see how others felt about them. I won't really be getting into anything until Alpha when we can actually get in and test things. Up to that point everything is speculation.
Enitzu said:There is ahuge difference between FFXI and EQ though. Played them both myself. FFXI you could schedule everything. EQ however was all open world. You were either there when it spawned or you missed out. There was no raid at 8 est. It was whenever it popped plain and simple. FFXI had a lot of instanced content taht could be done at any time on anyones schedule. That is where the difference and no lifing comes into play. Those that can wake up at 4am to log on and kill bosses and play through day and night have a big advantage in these types of games. And you can be assured there will be guilds on that will only recruit people that can be on at any time of the day and night.
You've argued that if VR doesn't do the things you suggest that a bunch of people won't play, and you - ostensibly - would see this as a major problem. Well, if you're being intellectually honest, you will have to concede that if they do design the game with things as you want them, it will also turn away a number of people for whom that is not the kind of experience they want. Given the unpopularity of your suggestions, that would include people who not only would back the game, but already have.
So, my question to you is would you be equally concerned about those people not playing? Would you find it troublesome that those people were turned off to the game, because your personal preferences didn't fall in line with theirs? Or would you shrug it off and, in complete irony, say "Oh well. VR did say the game wouldn't be for everyone"?
Or, would you then just come out and admit that you were only concerned about your own preferences being met all along, and whether others (beyond yourself and your friends) played or not really didn't factor into it at all?
Enitzu said:1. Looting - In this day and age please for the love of god give me an auto loot. There needs to be a loot window but there really isn't a need for me to have to manually click everything. There also needs to various methods of dealing with loot. IE Master Loot, Free for All, Ordered Looting, etc
I wouldn’t mind a window that pops up with a Loot All Button and can agree with supporting various methods of looting.
Enitzu said:2. LFG System - Original EQ had one of the worst systems ever known, none. Eventually they added in a window that would show anyone with the lfg tag and that is actually what I am recommending here. That system made it super fast and easy to create a group out of nothing. Even if it meant crossing the world to do so. Simple, easy, and effective. We don't need anything extravagent. We just need a way to get a group going quickly. *Note* I do NOT want an instant dungeon group finder. I do NOT want teleports to dungeons. And I most certainly do NOT want easy content. I want a simple way to build a group, that is all.
I do not want an instance group finder either, we certainly agree there. I don’t think I need anything more than a window that shows all LFG. I’d be happy with that. I mean, at the end of the day, it is just a visual representation of the /who all lfg 30 35.
Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp.
I was perfectly happy with the mana regen that I saw in the video. One thing I did note was that the melee classes didn’t have to manage their endurance/mana bar as much as mages did. I would hope to see the two class types be more in line with each other.
I can’t find it now but someone mentioned, and I think it was you, about 4% every 5 seconds. I could be on bored with that perhaps. That is roughly 1.5 minutes for a full bar. Perhaps a bit slower, like 2% every 5 seconds. I could certainly go as far as 3 minutes for a full bar. I mean, it’s not like you would need to regen your full bar after every fight; well, typically.
Enitzu said:4. Spell Effects - I know it's pre alpha so I don't expect to see them now. The reason I mention this is because in raids some people with lower end PCs have issues with them. However no game imo has really addressed the issue. They give options to turn them off but that is just a quick fix. My suggestion is to make 2 sets, one for normal effects and one for a minimalistic effects. Even if the minimal effects are reused based on common spells types. This allows people to see what is being casted by others but reduces the strain on the system. In small group play this wouldn't be an issue but in large raids it can be.
Sure, this doesn’t bother me. As long as there is a visual representation of some sort for the spell, so folks can see what is being cast. With the option of course to completely turn it off if folks would want to.
Enitzu said:Now to gameplay things to talk about. Here's where I believe most will want to hang me :P
While I am a hardcore player at heart who will spend 5-6 hours a night and upwards of 16 hours a day on the weekends in game, I do not agree with fully open world raid bosses. Originally when the kickstarter hit, I was all for it. But after going back to EQ for the Ragefire server, I am 100% against it. Only having bosses in the open world just means that the people who don't have a life and a family and have the ability to batphone in at 4am will have huge advantages against those that can not. Essentially, 1 guild can powerhouse and lock down the entire server if they so choose. It can and does destroy the community and the server affected. It's happened now on 3 servers that I have seen. It's the reason Sony put in instanced versions of the raid targets on the newer TLP servers and the reason P99 has enforced rotations. This system does not work in the modern day gaming world. Having some open world bosses with a timer spawn is good, but you can not have every raid boss set this way. There needs to be a variety of ways for the more casual based guilds to raid as well.
My suggestion to combat this is simple. Take a look at Wildstars world boss system. It's not perfect and could be tweaked but it's good and makes sense. World bosses spawn on a timer as per the usual. However, guilds can farm certain items to deposit at the spawn location in order to summon the boss as well. This summoned boss is placed on a lockout for each person involved. The locked out people can still get loot from the normal spawn but can not get anything again from the summoned version. This way makes it possible for everyone to be involved with end game if they put in the effort. Either camp the normal spawn or farm the needed material. Any raid zones, however, should be instanced.
We maybe marketing the game towards the hardcore but we do need to face some semblance of a reality here. The game needs to make money. In order to do that we need people paying those subs. So whether we feel those 'casuals' aren't needed or not, they are. Anyone willing to say different well I'll tell you that you're a fool. EQ is on it's very last leg currently and most of their servers are completely devoid of life. Hell I logged on Fippy to find that there is only 1 guild left there. 1. There is no economy. There really is no game. You need people to play and repeat the game in order to keep more players coming in. If people can't find groups in a group based game then you can forget it. They will not stay. Once those 'hardcore' players are capped and doing the gear grind it's all those casuals you say we don't need that will keep us getting more people into the game.
Don’t think I would go as far as wanting to hang you lol. But there are a few things that I disagree with here. And as much as you stated your opinions, these are mine.
I like the idea of open world bosses. I like the idea of competing over these mobs. It was really a scaled up version of what occurred throughout the entire game. When you took your group into guk, you did a camp check. Sometimes the camp that you wanted was available, sometime it wasn’t. I just hate the idea of instanced game play in an MMO. Perhaps there can be multiple raid bosses that are on the same exact timer though? Then there are options if one raid boss is already being camped, there are others. I don’t know what a good solution would be, but I can say, I do like the competition.
I also wanted to comment on the time to level discussion. I question what the race is? Why are you worried about levels taking 4 – 5 hours to level, even at early levels? If I’m playing the game, and having fun while I’m doing it, then I don’t care at all if I level today, tomorrow, a week from now. It has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of time that I have to play. The only time that quicker progression through levels matter, is when your goal is to get to end game. THAT is the flaw of so many MMOs since EQ. It should be about the journey…which is what VR is shooting for. Sure, everyone likes to level to get that next new ability/spell/skill whatever, but that is just another milestone reward on the journey. I don’t really get the argument of “I don’t have much time to play so I need to level fast”. Why? If you are having fun playing, then who cares that it is taking a long time between levels!
I don’t have much time to play. I certainly won’t have as much time to play as you said you will. I think I could probably score 3 hour session 3 days during the week and if I am lucky, 4 – 5 hours on some Saturdays. A far cry from what I used to be able to put in back when I was playing EQ. But you know what? I pledged, I will subscribe, and I will play the game and enjoy myself without worrying about the time it is taking me to level. I want it to take a long time, I want to remember what I did, what I got, who I was with between levels 1 – 5, 5 – 10, 30 – 40, etc. etc. etc.
When I reach end game, I will enjoy end game and I’m sure that will be a whole unique experience unto itself. But my goal isn’t to reach end game as quickly as possible. I want to take in everything the game has to offer and only want to move on after I am satisfied.
VR has stated that they don’t need mass appeal to be sustainable. I’m guessing that cloud hosting solutions have a lot to do with this new business model. When you can pay by usage vs hosting yourself, you can get away with a lot more. I think it is presumptuous to believe that the game will be DOA because it does not cater to the masses. I believe there will be plenty of gamers out there, new and old, that want a different experience all together than what we have been fed for the past 10+ years. I assume there will be plenty of people who will pay for that privilege, and I am one of them…And I do not have tons of time to play.
In the end, the game will speak for itself. If I’m bored while playing the game, then it doesn’t matter how fast the game takes to level. But if the game can hold my attention from the time I log in to the time I force myself to log out…than it shouldn’t matter that I’m not seeing my levels rise every hour. I don’t want them to. If I’m having fun, keep me here longer!
Wolfsong said:
You've argued that if VR doesn't do the things you suggest that a bunch of people won't play, and you - ostensibly - would see this as a major problem. Well, if you're being intellectually honest, you will have to concede that if they do design the game with things as you want them, it will also turn away a number of people for whom that is not the kind of experience they want. Given the unpopularity of your suggestions, that would include people who not only would back the game, but already have.
So, my question to you is would you be equally concerned about those people not playing? Would you find it troublesome that those people were turned off to the game, because your personal preferences didn't fall in line with theirs? Or would you shrug it off and, in complete irony, say "Oh well. VR did say the game wouldn't be for everyone"?
Or, would you then just come out and admit that you were only concerned about your own preferences being met all along, and whether others (beyond yourself and your friends) played or not really didn't factor into it at all?
Concenring FFXI, you obviously know much more about the game than I do. I'll admit that this was not my primary game as I was playing it along side EQ mainly to play a game with some friends who weren't into EQ. So while I know about HNM's I never got into the game that much to know that they were highly saught after. Most of the content I did do in FFXI was in fact instanced hence me saying as much.
As to the above comments, None of my requests, even if they were to be followed, would hurt a single player on these forums. They would not in fact turn anyone away. If they did then there's some major issues because the only thing that could even slightly be a problem to anyone would be the mana change and what I have asked for isn't even unreasonable. I have even gone as far as to say I will withhold my thoughts on that for alpha when I can see for myself. Asking for an option to be able to loot all ... really? If that bothers someone to the point of not playing the game then they have much bigger issues in their lives.
My suggestions are based upon my thoughts. Which is the reason these forums exist. To converse back and forth and find ways to suggest to the dev team to make the game better. At no point in time has it ever been said "if your opinions do not match ours don't post them". If you don't agree with my posts then by all means post your reasons why and give a counter point or alternate suggestion. I enjoy seeing others points of view and sometimes it makes me rethink my own. But saying that anything i have suggested will impact a player in a negative way is pretty far fetched. However there are tons of people where the opposite is present. Tons of people who won't even look at this game due to the nature of the time sink involved. And that's ok. They don't want this game and that is their choice. Some however do like the concept but have issues with certain aspects of the game. Should we shut those out? Or should we be listening to them? Because if their issues are minor non game changing things why wouldn't we look at changing something in order to bring more people into the game?
Sorry I just can't get on board with the whole if you don't like it don't play cuz we aren't changing mentality. It's a group based game that needs the support to survive and as long as the core gameplay isn't changed and the ideals are followed then I will talk to and listen to those people with concerns. There is no reason not to discuss it. Even if it's dismissed in the end at least it has been brought up and some of those people reading these forums debating about supporting the game can see that. Non supporters can't post their feelings but we can do it for them.
starchildren3317 said:
Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp.
I was perfectly happy with the mana regen that I saw in the video. One thing I did note was that the melee classes didn’t have to manage their endurance/mana bar as much as mages did. I would hope to see the two class types be more in line with each other.
I can’t find it now but someone mentioned, and I think it was you, about 4% every 5 seconds. I could be on bored with that perhaps. That is roughly 1.5 minutes for a full bar. Perhaps a bit slower, like 2% every 5 seconds. I could certainly go as far as 3 minutes for a full bar. I mean, it’s not like you would need to regen your full bar after every fight; well, typically.
Don’t think I would go as far as wanting to hang you lol. But there are a few things that I disagree with here. And as much as you stated your opinions, these are mine.
I like the idea of open world bosses. I like the idea of competing over these mobs. It was really a scaled up version of what occurred throughout the entire game. When you took your group into guk, you did a camp check. Sometimes the camp that you wanted was available, sometime it wasn’t. I just hate the idea of instanced game play in an MMO. Perhaps there can be multiple raid bosses that are on the same exact timer though? Then there are options if one raid boss is already being camped, there are others. I don’t know what a good solution would be, but I can say, I do like the competition.
I also wanted to comment on the time to level discussion. I question what the race is? Why are you worried about levels taking 4 – 5 hours to level, even at early levels? If I’m playing the game, and having fun while I’m doing it, then I don’t care at all if I level today, tomorrow, a week from now. It has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of time that I have to play. The only time that quicker progression through levels matter, is when your goal is to get to end game. THAT is the flaw of so many MMOs since EQ. It should be about the journey…which is what VR is shooting for. Sure, everyone likes to level to get that next new ability/spell/skill whatever, but that is just another milestone reward on the journey. I don’t really get the argument of “I don’t have much time to play so I need to level fast”. Why? If you are having fun playing, then who cares that it is taking a long time between levels!
I don’t have much time to play. I certainly won’t have as much time to play as you said you will. I think I could probably score 3 hour session 3 days during the week and if I am lucky, 4 – 5 hours on some Saturdays. A far cry from what I used to be able to put in back when I was playing EQ. But you know what? I pledged, I will subscribe, and I will play the game and enjoy myself without worrying about the time it is taking me to level. I want it to take a long time, I want to remember what I did, what I got, who I was with between levels 1 – 5, 5 – 10, 30 – 40, etc. etc. etc.
When I reach end game, I will enjoy end game and I’m sure that will be a whole unique experience unto itself. But my goal isn’t to reach end game as quickly as possible. I want to take in everything the game has to offer and only want to move on after I am satisfied.
VR has stated that they don’t need mass appeal to be sustainable. I’m guessing that cloud hosting solutions have a lot to do with this new business model. When you can pay by usage vs hosting yourself, you can get away with a lot more. I think it is presumptuous to believe that the game will be DOA because it does not cater to the masses. I believe there will be plenty of gamers out there, new and old, that want a different experience all together than what we have been fed for the past 10+ years. I assume there will be plenty of people who will pay for that privilege, and I am one of them…And I do not have tons of time to play.
In the end, the game will speak for itself. If I’m bored while playing the game, then it doesn’t matter how fast the game takes to level. But if the game can hold my attention from the time I log in to the time I force myself to log out…than it shouldn’t matter that I’m not seeing my levels rise every hour. I don’t want them to. If I’m having fun, keep me here longer!
Nice response!
It was me taht said 2% mana per 5 seconds which would equate to full mana in 4 minutes. I felt that was a solid state to sit at since higher levels will bring regen spells and abilities I'm sure.
As for the world boss stuff, I never meant to instance anything other than full scale raid zones. Zones like Sol A Naggy for instance would not be instanced zones. My suggestion was that the normal world bosses would spawn as usual but say a more casual guild knows he won't spawn on their time but they want to do him anyway. So they get guildies farming in Sol A and collect say 1000 idols dropped by gobs/kobolds. They take these idols to Naggies spawn point where there would either be a person or object to turn in these too. Once 1000 are turned in, Naggy spawns as a summoned version. This version drops all the same loot and is no different than the normal naggy. However, this version kicks in a 7 day timer to everyone involved in the kill. Any damage or healing done in the fight would put that person on a timer. This is all being done in a non instanced zone.
Reason I made that suggestion was to counter a few that I have seen. Some wanted instancing, I don't agree there. Instancing hurts the competitive scene. Some want to just put lock outs and have the bosses instantly respawn when killed. I could get behind it but I think people should have to work for it somewhat since the competitive players are working for it. It was just a happy medium imo if you will.
As for the leveling process, 4-5 hours a lvl towards end game or even mid game is what i would expect. My only issue is with the people wanting 4+ hours for levels 1-10. Most classes don't even have their iconic skills till somewhere around 9-18. And for some classes the early levels are so much harder than others. Take a mage at launch for instance. Lvl 1 gnome mage will get at most 2-3 casts off before being oom. If one of those is resisted, that mage will either die or run to a guard. Because their melee attack is total garbage. But a monk at lvl 1 can mow through mobs with no problems. Early levels are not meant to take forever and making them do so is not a great idea imo.
Enitzu said:
As for the leveling process, 4-5 hours a lvl towards end game or even mid game is what i would expect. My only issue is with the people wanting 4+ hours for levels 1-10. Most classes don't even have their iconic skills till somewhere around 9-18.
This is true if you're talking Everquest, but as we can see from the stream, even at level 7 the classes are quite defined with their skills. It's been insinuated and even stated on occasion that Pantheon doesn't begin at level 50.
They have said many times that they want the classic feel but don't want it to be tedious. So you can expect some compromises. Just want to reply with my thoughts and possible compromises.
1. Looting - I wouldn't want an option that auto-loots on kill, if that's what you're suggesting. You must at least click the corpse in some way. There's already a take all button, so a compromise to double click corpse to take all seems fair. In the video it looked like there was lots of non-stackable items, so you might not want to always take everything or you will end up spending more time dropping them from your bags. I haven't seen anything official yet about weight but that could be another reason to select your loot more carefully. If you're in a group, there's always one hyper person you can make the designated looter. It gives the Bard something to do so they don't go AFK. Until they eventually fall asleep before handing out the loot...see, we're having fun already!
2. LFG System - Yeah agree with this totally. A window that shows everyone LFG would be great. I've left a few games simply because of failing to find groups for days on end. If you can ask a guild member in chat from anywhere in the world to come group with you then what's wrong with a window showing all who are LFG anywhere in the world? I would even go a step further and have the window show their location and a short description of what they are looking to group for. Of course, no teleportation and if they are on the other side of the world you have to wait however long it would take for them to get to you normally.
3. Mana - It looked good to me in the video. More or less it will it will be up to the developers vision of the game as a whole and might change a little based on a general consensus of the testers. Thats my guess. More or less it will it will be up to the developers vision of the game as a whole and might change a little based on a general consensus of the testers.
Leveling speed - Personally I want it to be slow. They said the game will be more about wanting to explore and that there will be raid bosses even at lower levels. I want to level up slowly enough to where I can explore like at least half of what's out there for my current level to explore. If you level too fast you will miss out on so much stuff. Hopefully it will be such fun stuff to explore that you won't care about leveling. I still have memories of the places that I went in EQ between level 1-10, there were MANY!! If 1-10 were fast and easy I wouldn't have those nice memories. Past 10 thats where the real exploration started. If it was fast during those levels I probably never would have entered Befallen, just skipped it over and probably for the better!!! My guess though is it will probably be the same as with the Mana.
4. Spell Effects - Sure, why not. I can see through the chaos and always run on full but options are always nice.
5. Graphics - I'm sure the characters and animations will get better. The world did look great though, lots of detail. I much prefer more attention to detail over super modern graphics.
6. UI - The basic layout looked fine to me, of course they will keep working on it to make it look nicer. Send them your suggestions for it.
Open World Bosses - There is a topic on this already and you should get in on it to give your suggestions. I just hope that I can be walking along in a zone and come across an open world boss and run away in terror or be killed in one hit. I want them to really be there and really be scary if you know what I mean. For example, it was fun having Lockjaw spawn and go around killing everyone until some higher levels showed up to kill it. It's not like you want Lockjaw on a 1 hour timer though either. For end game raid bosses it's a different matter and hopefully they can make a good choice. I like the idea of having one normal long randomish spawn timer and then another way for guilds to summon it on their own time.
Enitzu said:Concenring FFXI, you obviously know much more about the game than I do. I'll admit that this was not my primary game as I was playing it along side EQ mainly to play a game with some friends who weren't into EQ. So while I know about HNM's I never got into the game that much to know that they were highly saught after. Most of the content I did do in FFXI was in fact instanced hence me saying as much.
Enitzu said:As to the above comments, None of my requests, even if they were to be followed, would hurt a single player on these forums. They would not in fact turn anyone away. If they did then there's some major issues because the only thing that could even slightly be a problem to anyone would be the mana change and what I have asked for isn't even unreasonable. I have even gone as far as to say I will withhold my thoughts on that for alpha when I can see for myself. Asking for an option to be able to loot all ... really? If that bothers someone to the point of not playing the game then they have much bigger issues in their lives.
As for the rest of your post... I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but you seem to be repeatedly missing (or ignoring) mine.
Here's a direct quote of what I said earlier in this very thread: It sums up my entire point fairly succinctly.
"You have your preferences, and that's fine. By all means share them and explain why you feel that way. But when you start veering into territory, like talking about "how they need to make money" or predicting that if VR does "X", people will do "Y", it just makes you look like you're trying to scare them into catering the game more to your preferences. It's like a parent telling their child the boogey-man in their closet won't eat them as long as they go straight to bed and stay there. Only the child in this case is already old enough to realize the boogey-man isn't real, and that the parent just wants them to stay in bed."
FFXI had enough instancing in the game to the point where you could schedule instanced stuff 4 nights a week and never run out of things to do. As someone who played it on the side and never at a competitive rate, I did take it as an instanced game because that's all I ever did or needed to do. For those seeking BiS stuff, Sure. I can definitely see where HNMs would be a factor. But denying that the game was largely instanced based is just as incorrect. Trying to refute my statements based on the fact that HNMs exsisted while ignoring the fact that a large portion of the game was in fact instanced is just as incorrect. I mean if you want to be technical then you are correct but considering you played the game so vehemotely then you know just the same that there is more than enough instanced content to provide a guild weeks worth of gaming with little downtime each night. EQ did not have that. So my whole counter point to your statement still stands. Whether you choose to agree or not it is there.
You're right. It is presumptuous of me to claim that my thoughts wouldn't affect people. They probably would have something to say about it. But let me ask you this, if these changes went into the game, do you think a single person on these forums would change their tune and not play the game? I don't. Like at all lol. Everyone here is a die hard and will play this game. I don't think there is anything they could do to the game, so long as the core function are not changed, that would cause anyone here to not play. So again, my statement stands true. Yes I am speaking for others and no it's not right but nothing I have suggested would in any way hurt or break the game. The things I have suggested are minor adjustments made with some of the more casual players in mind. Because whether or not people want to admit to it those players are needed. Those casual players will be the ones farming mats, leveling lower levels, and generally keeping more people coming into the game once the rest of us are at cap. Those casual players will be some of the ones paying subs so they can pay people to create more content. We need them. We will always need them. The minute people start alienating them is when the game goes f2p and you start seeing p2w crap. Don't believe me? Take a look at Wildstar, the last touted hardcore game. 2 months of great numbers followed by the mass exodus. All of their resources then went into finding ways to keep the company afloat and the game running. All new content was put on the back burner. In the end even the hardcore have left.
- What I do take issue with is when people purport to speak for some unrepresented, unnamed group of "others" that they do not, and can not know - doing so purely to try and make their opinions seem more "right" than anyone else's. You have done this repeatedly throughout this thread.
And just what makes you think I do not speak for some "others"? I do very much speak for around 20 people atm. My entire guild that has been watching this game. My concerns aren't only my own, I am just the only one willing to invest at the moment.
Anistosoles said:They want an improved EQ1 with the same general feel. At least, that's just how I see it.
My feeling as well.
I like the old mana regen method. I do see the OP's point, however, I want to return to a game that has content and substance.
I want and enjoy playing the game with old friends and hopefully meet some new ones.
For me, the game is not a race. Sure, when I have a goal I may want to reach it faster than others, but I want it to last. The game will hopefully be around for a long time, and I don't care if it takes me two weeks or two years to reach a goal.
One thing I disgree with what the OP mentioned was taking 4 to 5 hours to level. I hope not either. I want it to take days if not weeks to do so.
Lakland said:
One thing I disgree with what the OP mentioned was taking 4 to 5 hours to level. I hope not either. I want it to take days if not weeks to do so.
Think you misunderstood that part :D
People are saying 4-5 hours per level. Early game I think this would be an issue. Late game, I expect this. Now if you are saying you want it to take days or weeks per level then that's a whole new ballgame lol. I am all about the journey. But I do like getting new things. Who doesn't right? If it takes a month to get 4 levels and new spells or abilities then that's a bit much. I don't think it should or even will take more than 3 months to reach cap. Still need to give people time to experience the end game before new content which means epic quests and all. Those can take some people 6 months to finish