Hiya all! This will be my first post on these fourms. Some may remember me from the kickstarter, P99 guild, and other forums where i have supported Pantheon. I took a step back for awhile to see how the game would progress, and honestly because at the time I couldn't invest what I wanted. However, after watching the pre alpha gameplay video I thought it was time to stop waiting.
While I and many of us have been hardcore advocates for the older style gamplay, there were a few things that I am seeing in the gameplay video that I wanted to post about. Forgive me if these are things that have been talked about before as I have not made it through all posts on these forums as of yet. Some people may disagree with me and that's fine. That's why we are discussing things here. Now I am not in game development and I honestly have no clue what it takes to create these types of games. All of my concerns/suggestions are based solely on my past 19 years of MMO gaming. Coming from what I find to be the best and worst of the genre.
While I do want to see the return of hardcore social gaming, I do not wish to go back to some of the tedious minor things. Here are some of what I consider to be minor quality of life things that I think we should be taking a look at.
1. Looting - In this day and age please for the love of god give me an auto loot. There needs to be a loot window but there really isn't a need for me to have to manually click everything. There also needs to various methods of dealing with loot. IE Master Loot, Free for All, Ordered Looting, etc
2. LFG System - Original EQ had one of the worst systems ever known, none. Eventually they added in a window that would show anyone with the lfg tag and that is actually what I am recommending here. That system made it super fast and easy to create a group out of nothing. Even if it meant crossing the world to do so. Simple, easy, and effective. We don't need anything extravagent. We just need a way to get a group going quickly. *Note* I do NOT want an instant dungeon group finder. I do NOT want teleports to dungeons. And I most certainly do NOT want easy content. I want a simple way to build a group, that is all.
3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp. If mana regen will be as slow as it was in 99 then I already know that I will be rolling with a group of 2 monks, 2 rogues, 1 tank, and 1 heals. No point in having anything else since it's faster leveling. Now if items will provide mana regen increases or a stat that will do just that then we can work with that but that did not really exist outside of manastones in the original game.
4. Spell Effects - I know it's pre alpha so I don't expect to see them now. The reason I mention this is because in raids some people with lower end PCs have issues with them. However no game imo has really addressed the issue. They give options to turn them off but that is just a quick fix. My suggestion is to make 2 sets, one for normal effects and one for a minimalistic effects. Even if the minimal effects are reused based on common spells types. This allows people to see what is being casted by others but reduces the strain on the system. In small group play this wouldn't be an issue but in large raids it can be.
5. Graphics - Again pre Alpha so didn't expect much. You guys spent a ton of time on the world and it greatly shows. It looks great and I can't wait to explore it! Now if we could invest that same love into the characters and animations. The melee animations really look like its 99 again. They could use some serious work. Nameplates need some tuning, preferably smaller and more sleek. All in all, give the rest of the game the love that was given to the world and you will see PvE'rs flock here.
6. UI - I know, I know. This is usually the last thing to get overhauled as, from what I hear, it's the easiest to work on and change. But just seeing it makes me cringe. I won't really say more about it since we all know it's a work in progress.
Now to gameplay things to talk about. Here's where I believe most will want to hang me :P
While I am a hardcore player at heart who will spend 5-6 hours a night and upwards of 16 hours a day on the weekends in game, I do not agree with fully open world raid bosses. Originally when the kickstarter hit, I was all for it. But after going back to EQ for the Ragefire server, I am 100% against it. Only having bosses in the open world just means that the people who don't have a life and a family and have the ability to batphone in at 4am will have huge advantages against those that can not. Essentially, 1 guild can powerhouse and lock down the entire server if they so choose. It can and does destroy the community and the server affected. It's happened now on 3 servers that I have seen. It's the reason Sony put in instanced versions of the raid targets on the newer TLP servers and the reason P99 has enforced rotations. This system does not work in the modern day gaming world. Having some open world bosses with a timer spawn is good, but you can not have every raid boss set this way. There needs to be a variety of ways for the more casual based guilds to raid as well.
My suggestion to combat this is simple. Take a look at Wildstars world boss system. It's not perfect and could be tweaked but it's good and makes sense. World bosses spawn on a timer as per the usual. However, guilds can farm certain items to deposit at the spawn location in order to summon the boss as well. This summoned boss is placed on a lockout for each person involved. The locked out people can still get loot from the normal spawn but can not get anything again from the summoned version. This way makes it possible for everyone to be involved with end game if they put in the effort. Either camp the normal spawn or farm the needed material. Any raid zones, however, should be instanced.
We maybe marketing the game towards the hardcore but we do need to face some semblance of a reality here. The game needs to make money. In order to do that we need people paying those subs. So whether we feel those 'casuals' aren't needed or not, they are. Anyone willing to say different well I'll tell you that you're a fool. EQ is on it's very last leg currently and most of their servers are completely devoid of life. Hell I logged on Fippy to find that there is only 1 guild left there. 1. There is no economy. There really is no game. You need people to play and repeat the game in order to keep more players coming in. If people can't find groups in a group based game then you can forget it. They will not stay. Once those 'hardcore' players are capped and doing the gear grind it's all those casuals you say we don't need that will keep us getting more people into the game.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Post your thoughts or discussions of mine. Please keep them on topic and constructive. Maybe you have better suggestions than I do.
Enitzu said:1. Looting - In this day and age please for the love of god give me an auto loot. There needs to be a loot window but there really isn't a need for me to have to manually click everything. There also needs to various methods of dealing with loot. IE Master Loot, Free for All, Ordered Looting, etc
I don't mind a "Loot All" button in the loot window, but I DO NOT want the system to just put anyting on a mob into my inventory, or auto-split it. In auto-split I don't even pay attention then I get a tell "Do you really need that or would you mind if I have it?" then I hve to figure out what they mean, dig through my bags, and transfer it to them. I'd rather open the loot window (Have an option that all in group can then see the window as well), and choose to loot it or leave it.
Enitzu said:2. LFG System - Original EQ had one of the worst systems ever known, none. Eventually they added in a window that would show anyone with the lfg tag and that is actually what I am recommending here. That system made it super fast and easy to create a group out of nothing. Even if it meant crossing the world to do so. Simple, easy, and effective. We don't need anything extravagent. We just need a way to get a group going quickly. *Note* I do NOT want an instant dungeon group finder. I do NOT want teleports to dungeons. And I most certainly do NOT want easy content. I want a simple way to build a group, that is all.
Agreed, the initial LFG in EQ classic was pretty bland, but a later rendition as you described would be good. But, as you said, as long as it does not include auto-port/instant travel to the group. You still have to put in the work. It also may mean turning down one group for another strictly based on location of both you and the group.
Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp. If mana regen will be as slow as it was in 99 then I already know that I will be rolling with a group of 2 monks, 2 rogues, 1 tank, and 1 heals. No point in having anything else since it's faster leveling. Now if items will provide mana regen increases or a stat that will do just that then we can work with that but that did not really exist outside of manastones in the original game.
I disagree here. I don't want out-of-combat auto-fill of mana/stamina/health, it should always regen at the same rate, maybe slightly faster out-of combat, and even faster if you sit to med/rest. Everything ends up too rushed if you can run from one fight to another without downtime.
Enitzu said:4. Spell Effects - I know it's pre alpha so I don't expect to see them now. The reason I mention this is because in raids some people with lower end PCs have issues with them. However no game imo has really addressed the issue. They give options to turn them off but that is just a quick fix. My suggestion is to make 2 sets, one for normal effects and one for a minimalistic effects. Even if the minimal effects are reused based on common spells types. This allows people to see what is being casted by others but reduces the strain on the system. In small group play this wouldn't be an issue but in large raids it can be.
I can agree with this. The game is visual, so beind able to identify things without the needs to look at the chatbox, is beneficial.
Enitzu said:5. Graphics - Again pre Alpha so didn't expect much. You guys spent a ton of time on the world and it greatly shows. It looks great and I can't wait to explore it! Now if we could invest that same love into the characters and animations. The melee animations really look like its 99 again. They could use some serious work. Nameplates need some tuning, preferably smaller and more sleek. All in all, give the rest of the game the love that was given to the world and you will see PvE'rs flock here.
It is pre-pre-alpha video, a lot of things where mere placeholders. Notice the characters dancing in the beginning, and it looked like their knees where stitched together. They are no where near final animations.
Enitzu said:6. UI - I know, I know. This is usually the last thing to get overhauled as, from what I hear, it's the easiest to work on and change. But just seeing it makes me cringe. I won't really say more about it since we all know it's a work in progress.
Again, placeholders. UI is hard to build until you know what you actually need.
2. /who all cleric 30 35 lfg
It doesn't sound like this game is for you
Krixus said:2. /who all cleric 30 35 lfg
It doesn't sound like this game is for you
As someone who had every server first kill from Classic through Planes of Power, I know exactly how the who function works. I spent many years of my life in EQ. That doesn't mean there are not better ways to do it. And from a community standpoint, the whole "Doesn't sound like this game is for you' bs you're spitting out is the worst thing you could be saying. This game has so much negative going around about it that a toxic community would kill it before it even begins. So do us all a favor and staple your lips please.
This is exactly what my 'keep it constructive' comment was about. If you have no meaningful information feel free to see yourself out. Rather see people here who want to improve on things rather than be complacent with outdated material.
Edit - And fyi your suggestion only works if people are actually using /lfg. If they are sitting in zones shouting then you wouldn't even see them on your list which was 90% of the time. If there is a system in place from the start with a lfg window that shows all those with the lfg tag as it is in the current EQ then groups become much easier to put together.
Fulton said:
I don't mind a "Loot All" button in the loot window, but I DO NOT want the system to just put anyting on a mob into my inventory, or auto-split it. In auto-split I don't even pay attention then I get a tell "Do you really need that or would you mind if I have it?" then I hve to figure out what they mean, dig through my bags, and transfer it to them. I'd rather open the loot window (Have an option that all in group can then see the window as well), and choose to loot it or leave it.
I disagree here. I don't want out-of-combat auto-fill of mana/stamina/health, it should always regen at the same rate, maybe slightly faster out-of combat, and even faster if you sit to med/rest. Everything ends up too rushed if you can run from one fight to another without downtime.
I meant they need to give us the option to loot all without having to hit the take all button. If things drop along the way I have no issue passing it to people. Or even put in a roll window for gear similiar to every other game now a days. It simply becomes tedious to loot a mob and click on the 5 different items in his inventory every kill. Especially in a fast paced group.
As for mana, I don't mean it should refill after every fight. That would be pretty broken. I meant it shouldn't take 5 minutes of sitting around doing nothing just to get your mana back. Old School EQ meant casting 2 heals for 60% of your mana then sitting for 4-5 minutes and doing it again. It was just bad (and incredibly boring) gameplay. The only ones that rolled clerics were the ones that either boxxed or sat half afk watching Netflix
And yea I know the graphics and UI stuff is all placeholders. Just wanted to mention it. Honestly didn't expect much from a pre alpha anything. Pre Alphas are usually nothing close to the finished product but they can give us things to discuss in order to end up with a solid final product.
Reading through your points 1,2,3 it sounds like you just want to streamline everything. I feel differently about all 3.
I think the autoloot system in FFIX and FFXIVs is one of the worst ideads to come into use. After playing both games for an extended amount of time I've looted may thousands of items and couldnt tell you the name or use of a single one from FFXIV and only a few major items from FFXI. Thinking about my time in EQ years ealier I can remember many of the items because I had to make a concious decision as to whether or not to loot them. Part of that is an issue of itemization as well but it all ties in.
I would prefer EQs old LFG system of requiring the players to actually talk to each other and decide to get a group going. A LFG system like is in place today ironically reinforces a solitary gameplay style in that people form the group by clicking a few buttons and then just dont talk. FFXIV is the worst offender in that area. Bring on /who all LFG 30-40 with various options.
I'd rather go back to the mana regen speed of EQ also because it encouraged communication. And leave out any kind of fast out-of-combat regen system as well. I remember a few specific times going OOM in an intense fight in EQ and medding in combat to get enough mana for another cast. Yah it's a slower system of regen but it can bring on quite a rush in the right situation. Also consider the effect on utility classes whose primary purpose might be assisting with mana regen (looking at you enchanter/bard).
Constructive comments work as long as both parties are willing to listen. Nothing wrong with discussing ways to improve the game; however, please remember that they are your opinions and not everyone elses. I happen to think the mana regen time was just about spot on. Could it be faster? Sure, but how much? Some might like it to be even slower (not me, though). Most people who have supported this game do not want Pantheon to turn into "all those other games." They want an improved EQ1 with the same general feel. At least, that's just how I see it.
Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp. If mana regen will be as slow as it was in 99 then I already know that I will be rolling with a group of 2 monks, 2 rogues, 1 tank, and 1 heals. No point in having anything else since it's faster leveling. Now if items will provide mana regen increases or a stat that will do just that then we can work with that but that did not really exist outside of manastones in the original game.
The staff has stated before that this game will not be for everyone, and they are catering to a certain type of gamer. I think somewhere in the stream Brad mentioned how the usual play session would be around two hours. Of course, you can grind as much as you'd like and play as much as you'd like, but that is what they are aiming for a usual session to last about. The mana regen is an incentive for socializing with your party. The melee dps evens out with the casters. Although a caster has to sit and regen mana, they are still going to put out the same if not more dps than a melee. For a caster, say 500 damage total in bursts where as the melee is just constant.
Anyhow, the point I guess I'm trying to make is that the mana regen downtime is likely here to stay.
Enitzu said:Krixus said:2. /who all cleric 30 35 lfg
It doesn't sound like this game is for you
As someone who had every server first kill from Classic through Planes of Power, I know exactly how the who function works. I spent many years of my life in EQ. That doesn't mean there are not better ways to do it. And from a community standpoint, the whole "Doesn't sound like this game is for you' bs you're spitting out is the worst thing you could be saying. This game has so much negative going around about it that a toxic community would kill it before it even begins. So do us all a favor and staple your lips please.
This is exactly what my 'keep it constructive' comment was about. If you have no meaningful information feel free to see yourself out. Rather see people here who want to improve on things rather than be complacent with outdated material.
Edit - And fyi your suggestion only works if people are actually using /lfg. If they are sitting in zones shouting then you wouldn't even see them on your list which was 90% of the time. If there is a system in place from the start with a lfg window that shows all those with the lfg tag as it is in the current EQ then groups become much easier to put together.
#1, perhaps you should take your own advice.
And #2, your post made it pretty clear that a game that requires a large time investment isn't for you. 4-5 hours per level is nothing, and you want to be catered to. You want faster this and faster that. This isn't that game. Polishing things like LFG and the UI and looting are worthwile natrual evolutions, but the core specific intent of this game is to slow things down and be like EQ.
3. How does your LFG system counter what you just said? If people aren't tagged then it doesn't matter either way.
Anistosoles said:Constructive comments work as long as both parties are willing to listen. Nothing wrong with discussing ways to improve the game; however, please remember that they are your opinions and not everyone elses. I happen to think the mana regen time was just about spot on. Could it be faster? Sure, but how much? Some might like it to be even slower (not me, though). Most people who have supported this game do not want Pantheon to turn into "all those other games." They want an improved EQ1 with the same general feel. At least, that's just how I see it.
The mana regen was extremely fast. I find it extremely discouraging that anyone could consider the regen/kill rates too slow. They were absurdly fast.
ArchMageSalamar said:Reading through your points 1,2,3 it sounds like you just want to streamline everything. I feel differently about all 3.
I think the autoloot system in FFIX and FFXIVs is one of the worst ideads to come into use. After playing both games for an extended amount of time I've looted may thousands of items and couldnt tell you the name or use of a single one from FFXIV and only a few major items from FFXI. Thinking about my time in EQ years ealier I can remember many of the items because I had to make a concious decision as to whether or not to loot them. Part of that is an issue of itemization as well but it all ties in.
I would prefer EQs old LFG system of requiring the players to actually talk to each other and decide to get a group going. A LFG system like is in place today ironically reinforces a solitary gameplay style in that people form the group by clicking a few buttons and then just dont talk. FFXIV is the worst offender in that area. Bring on /who all LFG 30-40 with various options.
I'd rather go back to the mana regen speed of EQ also because it encouraged communication. And leave out any kind of fast out-of-combat regen system as well. I remember a few specific times going OOM in an intense fight in EQ and medding in combat to get enough mana for another cast. Yah it's a slower system of regen but it can bring on quite a rush in the right situation. Also consider the effect on utility classes whose primary purpose might be assisting with mana regen (looking at you enchanter/bard).
Think you are misunderstanding some things I was saying. The lfg system I am talking about is the current EQ system. All it does is pull a window up and show you who has a lfg tag currently in the level range. You still have to talk to these people to form a group. I am NOT advocating for any type of auto grouping system ala WoW. I simply want to have something that stream lines the entire process rather than having to /who all x and send tells to every person of that class.
The loot thing is a choice. Some like the loot all features. Some don't. Just saying there should be the option for both parties. Really didn't think this one would be a hot button issue lol.
And yes I understand the meanings to mana and why it's slow. I get it. It was simply just a suggestion from a cleric PoV. If they balance the classes right to where melee and casters do the same dps with the mana regen then it works out. But early game EQ (up to the point where casters began to get good gear, IE Velious) melee trumped casters by a lot on bosses. Yes on normal mobs that could be 2 shot by casters they won the burst ofc. But bosses is where the dmg actually matters.
Many of these dislikes are in ongoing conversations in the forums now, you might want to add them to that location, as a blanket conversation might not get your point across.
I like the mana regen levels the way they where in EQ, and over time they would get faster with items, and buffs. At first it was rather slow but eventually got faster.
I also like to progress at a slower pace, since i find these other games out there are too sandbox stylish to my liking. We all have different times, and availablity to play, but i think most of us are in agreement we would like it to go a tad slower then what games we see out there now? If not then the select few of us want it much like EQ has played out.
I dont want to gain a lvl per hour either, that was so unrealistic, you should atleast on constant pulls take a few hours to level up. AA's if we get them in this game should go much faster if we have a ton of them to gain. Maybe 500 aa's per level to be equal if we have 15000 aa's to gain.
The rest of it UI, Video, is a WIP and may not be clear enough due to reduced settings for performance gains. I doubt it is any where close to what the unity engine does.
Krixus said:Enitzu said:Krixus said:2. /who all cleric 30 35 lfg
It doesn't sound like this game is for you
As someone who had every server first kill from Classic through Planes of Power, I know exactly how the who function works. I spent many years of my life in EQ. That doesn't mean there are not better ways to do it. And from a community standpoint, the whole "Doesn't sound like this game is for you' bs you're spitting out is the worst thing you could be saying. This game has so much negative going around about it that a toxic community would kill it before it even begins. So do us all a favor and staple your lips please.
This is exactly what my 'keep it constructive' comment was about. If you have no meaningful information feel free to see yourself out. Rather see people here who want to improve on things rather than be complacent with outdated material.
Edit - And fyi your suggestion only works if people are actually using /lfg. If they are sitting in zones shouting then you wouldn't even see them on your list which was 90% of the time. If there is a system in place from the start with a lfg window that shows all those with the lfg tag as it is in the current EQ then groups become much easier to put together.
#1, perhaps you should take your own advice.
And #2, your post made it pretty clear that a game that requires a large time investment isn't for you. 4-5 hours per level is nothing, and you want to be catered to. You want faster this and faster that. This isn't that game. Polishing things like LFG and the UI and looting are worthwile natrual evolutions, but the core specific intent of this game is to slow things down and be like EQ.
3. How does your LFG system counter what you just said? If people aren't tagged then it doesn't matter either way.
The game does require a large time investment. Never said it didn't. The 4-5 hours per level I am referring to was based towards all the posts about it should take 8 hours for level 2. You can sit here all day and argue with me over things but that won't change the fact that there are tons of people right now on the fence over the game. Some are waiting to see how it turns out. Some love the concept but won't even touch it due to the ragefire debauchle. Some won't spend 20 hours auto attacking mobs to get to level 5. I get that. But the fact of the matter is, VRI is a company. Companies have to make money or we get no new content. So if the first 10-20 levels are brutal then you will drive away people en masse. Which cuts away from that money. Which in turn cuts from your content. If it takes 5 years to develop the game and they can barely pay the current staff after launch yet lose half the player base in the first month, where does that leave them? Where does that leave the game? Sorry I can't look at just what's best for me when what's best for me is that the game stays profitable and the company can continue to put out more content. If that means I sacrifice a week of leveling to keep more people playing, which also helps me, then I am all for it. Your whole attitude towards people with less playtime than you is actually disturbing. You're acting like you are better than they are which is kind of funny.
My LFG system doesn't counter it at all. My system just streamlines it so I don't have to who all wiz then who all mage then who all cleric then who all warrior etc etc. I can open a window and send tells to all classes in the level range that are lfg. Like I said QoL stuff. Nothing major and nothing that would be game breaking or changing.
Crazzie said:Many of these dislikes are in ongoing conversations in the forums now, you might want to add them to that location, as a blanket conversation might not get your point across.
I like the mana regen levels the way they where in EQ, and over time they would get faster with items, and buffs. At first it was rather slow but eventually got faster.
I also like to progress at a slower pace, since i find these other games out there are too sandbox stylish to my liking. We all have different times, and availablity to play, but i think most of us are in agreement we would like it to go a tad slower then what games we see out there now? If not then the select few of us want it much like EQ has played out.
I dont want to gain a lvl per hour either, that was so unrealistic, you should atleast on constant pulls take a few hours to level up. AA's if we get them in this game should go much faster if we have a ton of them to gain. Maybe 500 aa's per level to be equal if we have 15000 aa's to gain.
The rest of it UI, Video, is a WIP and may not be clear enough due to reduced settings for performance gains. I doubt it is any where close to what the unity engine does.
+1
I can agree with this. The only reason I mentioned mana was because watching the video it was taking over 3.5 minutes to gain even 3/4 of a mana bar. So as a cleric going from 0-100% mana will take 5-6 minutes more than likely early on. End game states with items and buffs mana was never really an issue. It's just boring as hell early game pre items lol.
I agree with the slower pace than current games as well. But I in no way think it should be slower than EQ. EQ took a lot of people an entire year to hit the cap due to play times. 3-6 months should be the time frame for the more casual crowd with the more hardcore hitting it in 1-2 months.
Man.. I don't know where to start... 4-5 hours a level is too slow? I expect no less than 50-100 hours a level, any less than that just means i'll be finished in a month or 2. Now I know that doesn't represent most players, but the fact of the matter is, the longer the better.
I think OP needs to step back and forget everything he's learned playing MMORPG's for the past 15 years that weren't Everquest. Saying 4-5 hours is too long for a level, why? What is so pressing that you need to be finished leveling in a week? Are you here to get to max level and quit, or think you're going to spend the majority of your time playing Pantheon raiding? Neither of those will hopefully be the case, I'd like the leveling experience to be nearly endless, even for hardcores. Most games in the past 10 years have forged a system where the 1-49 does not matter whatsoever, its 50 that counts... this was never the way EQ was designed, EQ was designed for every single level to be fun and to matter.
Pantheon will go back to making the journey matter, not just the destination.
Oh and about the mana regen, I think it was spot on, if not a tad fast. However I would imagine they dont have much mana or intelligence boosting their energy reserves, so they would fill up faster than a well geared player would.
As far as bringing all melee to a group so you dont have to wait on mana... I'm not sure if you were watching but, this will not be like Everquest... melees will require energy/mana as well, if not just as much as casters.. everyone across the board should be reliant on resources.
The only ones that rolled clerics were the ones that either boxxed or sat half afk watching Netflix
Lol Netflix didn't start streaming tell 2007 how where clerics doing this in EQ
but as someone who played a with a spouse that has always played a cleric type healer in every game. This is where group interdependence comes into play with a chanter or bard and a proper tank dps you could pull fairly steady even at release in eq
Everyone keeps on quoting 4-5 hours per level ... what level ranges are you refering to? 4-5 hours per level for 1-10, or for 30-40? That makes a big difference. End game sure 4-5 hours per level would be about right. Early game, not a chance. I get taht everyone who has already dropped money wants to no life a game again but the what 50 of you won't support an MMO. Hell 100 people at $15 a month won't support the cost of a server and the employees to cover creating new content. You have to find ways to bring in more of a playerbase and alienating 9/10ths of the MMO community by requiring the amount of time you are trying to advocate for isn't going to get you anywhere. This is probably our last chance at getting a solid MMO similiar to EQ again. So yes, I would rather be more on the cautious side and bring in more players to make it successful instead of risking losing everything. The time investment will be there either way. Whether it's 400 hours to cap or 600 hours to cap. Even at cap it's not like you won't have to invest another 2-300 hours just in gearing.
You say EQ was designed for every level but even in EQ it never took 4-5 hours for a level pre 30. If it did then you did something really wrong.
Rallyd said:As far as bringing all melee to a group so you dont have to wait on mana... I'm not sure if you were watching but, this will not be like Everquest... melees will require energy/mana as well, if not just as much as casters.. everyone across the board should be reliant on resources.
Melee have always had stronger auto attacks that made up the majority of their damage. So energy regen still wouldn't equal out early game. Late game it would.
Lol Netflix didn't start streaming tell 2007 how where clerics doing this in EQ
Lol On launch I just popped in movies. For Ragefire it was Netflix. For this it will be something similar as well.
but as someone who played a with a spouse that has always played a cleric type healer in every game. This is where group interdependence comes into play with a chanter or bard and a proper tank dps you could pull fairly steady even at release in eq
Then you aren't speaking early game either. Original EQ Chanters didn't get Clarity until 29 so until that point you suffered with the mana breaks every 3-5 pulls usually.
1. Wouldn't bother me one way or another to have a loot all button.
2. Unless we would still have to talk to the person to invite them, I would not be interested.
3. Mind you the characters were lower level and I personally expect it to take a LONG time to regen health and mana when we are in our lower levels. This will help with downtime and give a better chance for a meaningful conversation to be had.
I personally want to feel weak, vulnerable, and scared to venture out from the safety of guards without my comrades/friends/companions at my side. If I wanted an instant regen game, there are plenty already on the market. My wife and I are looking for a much much slower paced game.
4. Agreed, I would want crappy effects and better effects as I grow in levels.
5/6. N/A
Gameplay(7). I understand what you mean there though I'm leaving this in the capable hands of VR as I don't have a solution to the problems that come with either open world vs instanced raid content. I personally would leave it out all together and hope that all the elitist wouldn't play. :) Just friends and adventures in a living breathing world built around story and lore.
Enitzu said:Krixus said:2. /who all cleric 30 35 lfg
It doesn't sound like this game is for you
As someone who had every server first kill from Classic through Planes of Power, I know exactly how the who function works. I spent many years of my life in EQ. That doesn't mean there are not better ways to do it. And from a community standpoint, the whole "Doesn't sound like this game is for you' bs you're spitting out is the worst thing you could be saying. This game has so much negative going around about it that a toxic community would kill it before it even begins. So do us all a favor and staple your lips please.
This is exactly what my 'keep it constructive' comment was about. If you have no meaningful information feel free to see yourself out. Rather see people here who want to improve on things rather than be complacent with outdated material.
TBH this is the kind of stuff this forum doesn't need. Just sayin. Everyone have a good day and listen to a tune from your trusty old Bard
Pyde Pyper
......Always playing a happy tune.
Level 29 would have been first month out years we spent playing. I always like the litle down time and slow paced game that eq1 was. I will say right now if this turns in to game of dodge the red ground no time to chat ect. I will be really sad and just go back to playing RPGs with nice story lines and a pause button. I wont pay for a mmorpg that doesnt allow time to socialize. fast pasted button spamming fire dodgers what every ones making Don't need another.
Krixus said:2. /who all cleric 30 35 lfg
It doesn't sound like this game is for you
To be honest "It doesn't sound like this game is for you" is rather off putting, I have heard others say that alot in other games, not a way to encourage people to stick around, really. :)
Enitzu said:The game does require a large time investment. Never said it didn't. The 4-5 hours per level I am referring to was based towards all the posts about it should take 8 hours for level 2. You can sit here all day and argue with me over things but that won't change the fact that there are tons of people right now on the fence over the game. Some are waiting to see how it turns out. Some love the concept but won't even touch it due to the ragefire debauchle. Some won't spend 20 hours auto attacking mobs to get to level 5.
And if VR decides that's the way they want to go with Pantheon, and those people decide not to play, well. Brad's already stated that they fully understand it's not going to appeal to any mass market, and is going to be very niche. Not being snarky, but I'm not really sure what point you feel you're making when you say that. Do you believe others aren't aware that, no matter what VR do with Pantheon, that there's going to be some group of people it's going to turn away?
The thing is, while some won't do those things, some others will. It would be those some others that VR are creating the game for.
As for people being on the fence, remember that a fence has two sides, and people can just as easily fall to either.
For myself, I was on the fence for a long time. Watching that livestream from the 11th is what not only got me off the fence, but shoved me offg. I pledged at Knight level, and then upgraded it to Patron. I may well upgrade it yet further when/as finances allow. That's how much I absolutely loved everything I saw and heard, and feel they're making exactly the kind of experience I've been wanting for a long time now. Speaking of leveling rate.. I don't care if level 1 takes 10 hours - if it's a fun 10 hours of engaging gameplay and I'm enjoying myself, then I really don't care. Leveling up is great. Having fun in the process is even better.Enitzu said:
I get that. But the fact of the matter is, VRI is a company. Companies have to make money or we get no new content. So if the first 10-20 levels are brutal then you will drive away people en masse. Which cuts away from that money. Which in turn cuts from your content. If it takes 5 years to develop the game and they can barely pay the current staff after launch yet lose half the player base in the first month, where does that leave them? Where does that leave the game?
You'll drive away the people for whom the first 10-20 levels being "brutal" is not what they're looking for. However, you'll attract and keep the people for whom that style of gameplay is enjoyable, or at least fun enough that they'll keep playing.
Where does that leave the game? I'd say it leaves the game in a position that VR expected it to be from the start. I expect it'll leave the game in a place where, if they're happy with the % of those staying to leaving, they'll keep on that track. If they find they're losing more than they'd like, they'll possibly tweak things to try and find the sweet spot they're after. Being veterans of the industry, and having worked on and supported multiple MMOs in the past, I have full confidence that VR know exactly what they're after, and have a pretty good idea of how tweak and tune the game to get it where they want it.
I have full confidence that someone on a forum stating that they're a company and companies have to make money is not going to be revelatory, to them, or anyone else. Especially not with the financial history and backing of this game in particular.
You have your preferences, and that's fine. By all means share them and explain why you feel that way. But when you start veering into territory, like talking about "how they need to make money" or predicting that if VR does "X", people will do "Y", it just makes you look like you're trying to scare them into catering the game more to your preferences. It's like a parent telling their child the boogey-man in their closet won't eat them as long as they go straight to bed and stay there. Only the child in this case is already old enough to realize the boogey-man isn't real, and that the parent just wants them to stay in bed.
This post was edited by Wolfsong at March 21, 2016 7:24 PM PDT
And....no. I want the exact 100% 180-degree total opposite of everything you said. Every single thing you said is, IMO, every single thing that's destroyed the entire genre by dumbing down the game with the lame argument that we need to level faster, not work at the game and have real lives to live and we should get instant gratification.
Enitzu said:1. Looting - In this day and age please for the love of god give me an auto loot. There needs to be a loot window but there really isn't a need for me to have to manually click everything. There also needs to various methods of dealing with loot. IE Master Loot, Free for All, Ordered Looting, etc
Please no auto looting. If an enemy dies out on the battlefield and we want to rifle through their corpse and backpack looking for loot to pillage form their corpse we should have to spend the time doing that. Also, we need to pay attention to where we kill mobs. Sometimes looting the body is just as dangerous because of nearby mobs and we need to consider that. Do NOT allow autolooting. Nothing i is more dumbed-down instant-gratificaiton garbage than sitting in one place 150' away from a mob, nuking it, watching it fall down dead and ka-ching! loot lands in our backpack. No, no and HELL no!
Enitzu said:2. LFG System - Original EQ had one of the worst systems ever known, none. Eventually they added in a window that would show anyone with the lfg tag and that is actually what I am recommending here. That system made it super fast and easy to create a group out of nothing. Even if it meant crossing the world to do so. Simple, easy, and effective. We don't need anything extravagent. We just need a way to get a group going quickly. *Note* I do NOT want an instant dungeon group finder. I do NOT want teleports to dungeons. And I most certainly do NOT want easy content. I want a simple way to build a group, that is all.
No. No LFG system. At all. Ever. This again dumbed down the game massively and made it feel like a console kids game not a social MMORPG.
Enitzu said:3. Mana - Once thing I noticed was that we are essenitally back to 1999 EQ with our mana regen minus starring at the book. While this did work then, I don't think it will work as well today. Most of us that want this type of game now have full time jobs and families. While I would literally kill to play my fav game all day long again it is just not possible. Spending 4-5 hours for a level is just not realistic anymore. Faster mana regen means faster pulls which means faster xp. If mana regen will be as slow as it was in 99 then I already know that I will be rolling with a group of 2 monks, 2 rogues, 1 tank, and 1 heals. No point in having anything else since it's faster leveling. Now if items will provide mana regen increases or a stat that will do just that then we can work with that but that did not really exist outside of manastones in the original game.
Do *NOT* say "most of us" you do not speak for most of us. Put mana back in the game. Make it matter. Your statement illustrates that you are interested in nothing but fastest possible leveling and instant gratification.
I was going to continue arguing the rest of your points but need not continue further. This post gets my as the worst idea list yet. These "requests" are exactly everything that everyone hates about modern MMO's that ruined the genre. The only hope for Protf is to do exactly the opposite of this and ignore this mentality of instant gratification.