This thread is probably going to get me flamed from everyone who is on this forum but someone has to ask the question.
In every single thread (at least it feels that way) someone always uses the argument "well EverQuest did it that way so should Pantheon" as to why their idea is better than the others. But if the developers only listen to arguments like that what we will end up with is EverQuest with a new graphics engine. Is that what we really want? What about great new ideas that haven't been done before? What about trying ideas out in testing to see if they work? Isn't that what testing is all about?
I for one loved EverQuest. It was my first ever MMO and I played it for over 5 years but I quit because eventually I got bored. I'm sure most of you no longer play EverQuest for various reasons. So if you quit EverQuest why do you want Pantheon to be so much like it? Surely if Pantheon is too much like EverQuest you'll get bored super fast because you've basically played the game already. There won't be any new ideas in the game and you'll find that you'll quit for the very same reasons you quit EverQuest.
So can we please stop shooting down original ideas just because EverQuest didn't do it? I'm sure we all want Pantheon to be a successful game but copying everything that EverQuest did is probably not the way to get there. Yes we all want a hard and challenging game. Yes we all want social interaction to be the primary focus. Yes we want levelling to take time but all of that can be achieved without just copying everything that EverQuest did.
So lets all agree EverQuest was a great game but Pantheon is NOT EverQuest and if you want a game to be like EverQuest why don't you go back and actually play EverQuest? Pantheon is a new game built in a completely different era with new technology and built for computers that can handle much more complex games. I'm excited to see what new ideas the Pantheon developers can bring to the genre. Things that no other MMO has done before. I'm sure you are as well.
Edit:
This whole post can be summarised as follows:
I am just making a plea to the community to try and be a bit more open minded about new ideas.
Cromulent said:This thread is probably going to get me flamed from everyone who is on this forum but someone has to ask the question.
In every single thread (at least it feels that way) someone always uses the argument "well EverQuest did it that way so should Pantheon" as to why their idea is better than the others. But if the developers only listen to arguments like that what we will end up with is EverQuest with a new graphics engine. Is that what we really want? What about great new ideas that haven't been done before? What about trying ideas out in testing to see if they work? Isn't that what testing is all about?
I for one loved EverQuest. It was my first ever MMO and I played it for over 5 years but I quit because eventually I got bored. I'm sure most of you no longer play EverQuest for various reasons. So if you quit EverQuest why do you want Pantheon to be so much like it? Surely if Pantheon is too much like EverQuest you'll get bored super fast because you've basically played the game already. There won't be any new ideas in the game and you'll find that you'll quit for the very same reasons you quit EverQuest.
So can we please stop shooting down original ideas just because EverQuest didn't do it? I'm sure we all want Pantheon to be a successful game but copying everything that EverQuest did is probably not the way to get there. Yes we all want a hard and challenging game. Yes we all want social interaction to be the primary focus. Yes we want levelling to take time but all of that can be achieved without just copying everything that EverQuest did.
So lets all agree EverQuest was a great game but Pantheon is NOT EverQuest and if you want a game to be like EverQuest why don't you go back and actually play EverQuest? Pantheon is a new game built in a completely different era with new technology and built for computers that can handle much more complex games. I'm excited to see what new ideas the Pantheon developers can bring to the genre. Things that no other MMO has done before. I'm sure you are as well.
A lot of MMOs are called upon to make the example of why or why not something should be done or improved. Most of your EQ/EQ2 crowd played the game for 10 or 15 years and only recently when they dumbed it down did they quit.
If something worked in a videogame and was an amazing feature that could benefit Pantheon then it should be discussed regardles sof what game it came from. Like it or not EQ had a lot of amazing features that made that game a titan for hardcore for 20 years.
Likewise if a horrible game feature (WOW LFG tool) it should be called out and example of it on what should not be done. The reason you see people reference EQ is because that really could be considered one of the best MMO for the hard core players/
Kalgore said:Cromulent said:This thread is probably going to get me flamed from everyone who is on this forum but someone has to ask the question.
In every single thread (at least it feels that way) someone always uses the argument "well EverQuest did it that way so should Pantheon" as to why their idea is better than the others. But if the developers only listen to arguments like that what we will end up with is EverQuest with a new graphics engine. Is that what we really want? What about great new ideas that haven't been done before? What about trying ideas out in testing to see if they work? Isn't that what testing is all about?
I for one loved EverQuest. It was my first ever MMO and I played it for over 5 years but I quit because eventually I got bored. I'm sure most of you no longer play EverQuest for various reasons. So if you quit EverQuest why do you want Pantheon to be so much like it? Surely if Pantheon is too much like EverQuest you'll get bored super fast because you've basically played the game already. There won't be any new ideas in the game and you'll find that you'll quit for the very same reasons you quit EverQuest.
So can we please stop shooting down original ideas just because EverQuest didn't do it? I'm sure we all want Pantheon to be a successful game but copying everything that EverQuest did is probably not the way to get there. Yes we all want a hard and challenging game. Yes we all want social interaction to be the primary focus. Yes we want levelling to take time but all of that can be achieved without just copying everything that EverQuest did.
So lets all agree EverQuest was a great game but Pantheon is NOT EverQuest and if you want a game to be like EverQuest why don't you go back and actually play EverQuest? Pantheon is a new game built in a completely different era with new technology and built for computers that can handle much more complex games. I'm excited to see what new ideas the Pantheon developers can bring to the genre. Things that no other MMO has done before. I'm sure you are as well.
A lot of MMOs are called upon to make the example of why or why not something should be done or improved. Most of your EQ/EQ2 crowd played the game for 10 or 15 years and only recently when they dumbed it down did they quit.
If something worked in a videogame and was an amazing feature that could benefit Pantheon then it should be discussed regardles sof what game it came from. Like it or not EQ had a lot of amazing features that made that game a titan for hardcore for 20 years.
Likewise if a horrible game feature (WOW LFG tool) it should be called out and example of it on what should not be done. The reason you see people reference EQ is because that really could be considered one of the best MMO for the hard core players/
My point was (and I thought I made this clear) was that ideas shouldn't be shot down simply because they diverge from what EverQuest did. I loved EverQuest as I said in my original post. I made some great friends playing it but I'd rather not see good ideas being shot down just because they weren't in EQ.
Vanguard changed things in some pretty dramatic ways. Crafting was completely different. Diplomacy was completely new. Basically it was its own MMO. It drew ideas from other MMOs but didn't try to copy them completely and on the whole it worked (if you ignore the bugs at launch).
That is what I want Pantheon to do. I want to login and not know what the hell to do because things are so different. I want that wonder back that I felt when I first logged into EQ. I want that feeling of a massive world. None of that is going to happen if the developers simply try and emulate what has come before.
I wouldn't be unhappy if Pantheon had features from EQ. The necro was an amazing class to play and so was the ranger but I already know how to play those classes. If I log into Pantheon and find that I already know how to play all the classes I'll be disappointed because it will leave out a large part of the learning required to get good at an MMO.
@Cromulent
This is game will be different to EQ. I/we talk about EQ due to nostalgia mainly.. and the best bits.. doesn't mean Pantheon be like that.
Edit: I would like a game that mimics the game mechanics that present the best possible combo for a social environment.
Right now EQ is the only game that does that from my perspective. Everything else seems like a single player game with a chat room.
@OP
Yes lots of people refrence EQ for things that they liked in an MMORPG and would like to see returned to the scene, Equally though people refrence EQ for things that they dont want to see return. Things like transportation hubs were also pioneered by EQ but i dont see anyone saying we need to have a plane of knowledge in pantheon. Instance dungeons were also pretty much pioneered with Lost dungeons of Norrath Expansion, yet i have a hard time finding anyone who wants to see them in pantheon.
Its not that we want a copy / paste of EQ but some things were done so well by EQ that we just cant see a game lasting as long as EQ has without these features. especially things like class interdependance. I also see players refrencing VG quite a bit. many of them also the same people that refrence EQ. Noone is asking for a Direct copy of either, but why be so against bringing back the things that many felt worked well and promoted the longevity of the game?
The reason that players who refrence EQ and VG do not go back to play them is simple, there is nowhere to play them. VG is completely gone and EQ has been turned into a slightly harder WOW. you might say P1999 but that is a game frozen in time. due to that most profitable spawns are locked down by farmers and guilds with no real room to break into the game unless the amount of time you are willing to dedicate to it is astronomical.
so i now turn the question around, if someone wants something completely new with none of what made those past games great there are HUNDREDS of Completely New games out there... Archeage, Black Desert, Neverwinter, Landmark, and Tera, just to name a few. they have none of what these players are referencing, how about giving them a try? you might like them.
I totally can understand where the OP is coming from. Now his presentation is a strawman, but he is right where some folks don't seem that they want to even consider that a mechanic can be done in any other way than how EQ did it and anything other than that is just hand holding and dumbing down. It's very important that we all keep an open mind at other possibilities and not just immediately dismiss anything different.
Cromulent said:My point was (and I thought I made this clear) was that ideas shouldn't be shot down simply because they diverge from what EverQuest did. I loved EverQuest as I said in my original post. I made some great friends playing it but I'd rather not see good ideas being shot down just because they weren't in EQ.
The devs have said it will work like EQ AND Vanguard. Go read the FAQ. There are tons of systems not in Everquest thats planned for Pantheon so I'm not sure where you are getting your information from.
Gawd said:@OP
Yes lots of people refrence EQ for things that they liked in an MMORPG and would like to see returned to the scene, Equally though people refrence EQ for things that they dont want to see return. Things like transportation hubs were also pioneered by EQ but i dont see anyone saying we need to have a plane of knowledge in pantheon. Instance dungeons were also pretty much pioneered with Lost dungeons of Norrath Expansion, yet i have a hard time finding anyone who wants to see them in pantheon.
Its not that we want a copy / paste of EQ but some things were done so well by EQ that we just cant see a game lasting as long as EQ has without these features. especially things like class interdependance. I also see players refrencing VG quite a bit. many of them also the same people that refrence EQ. Noone is asking for a Direct copy of either, but why be so against bringing back the things that many felt worked well and promoted the longevity of the game?
The reason that players who refrence EQ and VG do not go back to play them is simple, there is nowhere to play them. VG is completely gone and EQ has been turned into a slightly harder WOW. you might say P1999 but that is a game frozen in time. due to that most profitable spawns are locked down by farmers and guilds with no real room to break into the game unless the amount of time you are willing to dedicate to it is astronomical.
so i now turn the question around, if someone wants something completely new with none of what made those past games great there are HUNDREDS of Completely New games out there... Archeage, Black Desert, Neverwinter, Landmark, and Tera, just to name a few. they have none of what these players are referencing, how about giving them a try? you might like them.
I completely understand that EQ did some things very well and whole heartedly agree with that. I did play it for 5 years after all.
Perhaps what I should have said was that copying something 100% was a bad move. If the Pantheon developers took what was in EQ and then added a special Pantheon "twist" to make it similar but different enough to feel different that would have a drastic impact (for the good) on the game than if they had just copied it 100%.
I'll give you two examples of things in EQ that I would love to see return in Pantheon (perhaps with a little twist perhaps not). The first one is quest text being done in the chat windows with characters actually talking to NPCs in order to progress the quest and for feign death to also exist either in a spell form like the necro or SK or in a skill form as in the monk. I think FD pulling was a very fun experience and a decent FD puller was worth their weight in gold.
Aich said:Cromulent said:My point was (and I thought I made this clear) was that ideas shouldn't be shot down simply because they diverge from what EverQuest did. I loved EverQuest as I said in my original post. I made some great friends playing it but I'd rather not see good ideas being shot down just because they weren't in EQ.
The devs have said it will work like EQ AND Vanguard. Go read the FAQ. There are tons of systems not in Everquest thats planned for Pantheon so I'm not sure where you are getting your information from.
I wasn't talking about the developers. I was talking about the community.
Im the biggest EQ fanboy probally on these forums...if we were given EQ with updated graphics I would be happy as pig in slop, But I understand that is not what Pantheon is nor what it should be...I personally reference EQ only because that is the only baseline of comparison I have. Any and all mmos I have played since then have been nothing but a cash grab p.o.s. (Didnt play vanguard and I think I tried WoW for like 2 or 3 hours). I want the slower combat, the encouraged grouping, the forced downtime the community interdependance...those are what I want and anything that causes you to play a game instead of enjoy the world I am against
Cromulent said:Basically my whole original post can be summarised as this:
I am just making a plea to the community to try and be a little bit more open minded about new ideas.
I'll edit my orginal post to add that in so that my post isn't taken out of context.
I think we need to break out the torches and pitchforks and teach you young whippersnappers just what we think of your "open minded"
Now that you guys mention it. Having never played Vanguard I'm a little worried about what elements will be taken and what they're like.
What was Vanguards battle system like compared to EQ's? Just seen a few gameplay videos on youtube.. looks WoW-esque..
@Liav Dunno Vanguard seems to have alot of abilities. Not sure I like dual targetting, makes things too easy. (I know it's in Pantheon.)
Liav, well I liked old system of targetting more. You need to be quick with cycling targets.. it had some skill there. I enjoyed it.
Anyway..
I didn't know which way you meant... WoW had more buttons or Vanguard. I really dislike button mashing mmos where the abilities cover your screen (later on in eq2).
@Liav I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It's my opinion :D
Hmmm.. I'll have to looksy when the alpha's out. I think I have alpha access..