Eq was and in some ways still is a great game. However, I don't want a reskinned EQ and I don't think that's what we will get. They should look at great games they hope to emulate in some ways and take the best parts while mixing in their own original stuff. If I were making it I'd mix EQ/Dark Souls/Vanguard/DAOC. Just because a game borrows ideas from another doesn't make it a copycat or rehash. It's called perfection
Kilsin said:Theun said:Well as somone who played EQ from launch until GoD and left it for Vanguard i bet you can guess how i feel about the combat. Vanguards combat was a hell of alot more fun and the raids in my opinion. (note: my opinion). I much rather have command of all my abilities and spells and actually use them. Versus having some of my spells standing around auto atking and waiting on refresh timers . If you havent played Vanguard but you have played EQ2 then you know what i mean. I also played EQ2 for years up until the recent expacs wich made all old gear useless because they lacked the insane dmg procs. Now im not flaming EQ. I loved EQ played for years and will always have found memories of it. But after playing Vanguard or EQ2 i just couldnt go back to auto atking. Most boring class ever EQ warrior taunt auto atk ya look at me. (i can feel the anger building). Oh and if you call it it button mashing go play EQ2 and raid with hardcore guilds and see what happens if you dont have your cast orders down and know what and when to do it. I would say Vanguard but alas it is no more. So in closing i really dont want to see a copy of any of the games i have mentioned but if i had to choose a combat style i would much rather the VG/EQ2 style of combat.
I am with you there, man ;)
+2
Loved the combat in Vanguard. The reactive skills were great.
I don't think Pantheon will be some kind of warmed over Everquest (or Vanguard) but a new and original game in its own right. Too many cooks spoil the broth, so I just hope the Devs don't worry too much about all the "it wasn't in Everquest/Vanguard/EQ2, so it's not needed in Pantheon!!!" and just make their game :)
Zarriya said:Dullahan said:Was it just that there was too much rather than the simplicity of the ability rotations of EQ2 and WoW?
nope. I really liked TERA's complex combat. I wouldn't want it for Pantheon. Its ok for me to have a different opinion from you; that is what this thread is about.
Please lay off the passive aggression. My question was merely to help me understand your perspective. It was not meant as criticism.
Dullahan said:Please lay off the passive aggression. My question was merely to help me understand your perspective. It was not meant as criticism.
Dullahan, you typed to me that you "can't understand how that is even possible" for me to like something, which was not very sweet and I really tried to answer your question. Then you asked me if I liked something because it was simplier. Text is tough to convey tone. Yes I felt criticized; but I was not PA - I still tried to answer your question. We can PM each other if you would really like to talk more about the combat differences, but I really do not want to derail this thread further. I look forward to pleasant conversation.
I would rank combat for me as such : EQ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FFXI>>>>>>>>Vanilla WoW>>>Vanguard>EQ2
The distance determines the value for me. EQ was by far and away the best system of any MMO I have played because of it's resource management system, and bathroom-breakable downtime (TM).
FFXI was similar to EQ, only the downtime was significantly less, the only reason I put it so far away from EQ is because the controls were/are TERRIBLE.
Vanilla WoW had resource management, and a lot of it, but it had virtually no downtime, however it made up for it by being the second easiest to control game outside of Everquest, control, not play.
Vanguard, while I do not have too many memories of classic because I didn't stay long, to me was spammy with next to zero downtime. By spammy I mean you could use an ability every single time on GCD and never run out of resources to do so. This is a serious flaw in design.
EQ2 was basically an identical combat system to Vanguard, with very few minor differences like skill chains. No downtime, spam an ability every time GCD is up (Not saying there isnt skill to it, just saying you can't take your fingers off the keys for half a second)
All that being said, I would like to see EQ style combat systems, but with better fleshed out classes like Vanguard had. Resource management should be absolutely critical to gameplay, burning through resources should also be possible, but at a cost of major downtime.
Example : Group pulls too many mobs to camp without properly splitting, group does not have proper CC, so a burn is called to 1-2 of the mobs to keep them from wiping the group, in this situation if you have enough resources you should be able to take them down and survive, if played well.. however, afterwards you should need to take a significant break to recover from your mistake. In Everquest, it could take a caster with 3000 mana 600 seconds to meditate from 0% mana to 100% mana, that's 10 minutes. Now I'm not saying we need something over the top like 10 minutes, but I think it should be no less than 5. Also every class in the game should be under these resource restrictions, not just casters like in Everquest.
Vanguard was EQ2 with combos. Same nonstop combat with very little downtime, multiple hotbars of abilities, spamming fast cooldowns, rotating in the longer. I'm sure there are some classes that will have a bit of a different flavor, making the experience seem considerably different between the games, but as someone who played melees in both games, it was nearly identical.
That said, I'm still not advocating Pantheon be exactly like EQ. I would like to see melee classes with more abilities. I'd even like to see the melee style of healers ala VG (which will probably happen by the sound of it). I just think every ability or spell should carry more weight and a larger cost. I also believe its crucial for there to be downtime. Having played the Black Desert beta, I was unable to speak to anyone while grouping. The need to continually fight is so bad, you don't even have time to check what has dropped and it gets sent to the auction. Its that sort of thing that kept me from buying the game.
Pantheon will be completely original. It is a blank canvas, a new start... The Devs are passionate about building a game we can all sink into and not solve easily. This will be based on old and new mechanics, and perhaps even many that are new and exciting, never having been applied before!
Definitely not EQ3... This is the best of the best, and they certainly are sticking to their values of what makes up a good, long lasting game.
I don't mind reactive skills, just not stupid amounts of combat abilities and spells.. like EQ2.. where it was mostly the same skills rehashed. I'd prefer like 4 main combat (super useful) abilities per class and 2 combat utility abilities... it just gets silly with loads of combat abilities.
Nimryl said:I don't mind reactive skills, just not stupid amounts of combat abilities and spells.. like EQ2.. where it was mostly the same skills rehashed. I'd prefer like 4 main combat (super useful) abilities per class and 2 combat utility abilities... it just gets silly with loads of combat abilities.
Agreed! I think something like an EQ caster, with 8 abilities. On top of that you will probably have some sort of reactive abilities like chains, counters, finishers. Add in clickies and consumables, that will put you up to 2 hotbars already. In my opinion, anything beyond that ends up becoming less enjoyable.
I prefer Pantheon be its own game, with its own ideas. Im perfectly fine having the game rooted and inspired by EQ and Vanguard, even looking forward to it, but tbh I probably wouldnt enjoy a game that plays exactly like EQ at this point. Hell, I hated those 'grind and punishment' games back then and I doubt id enjoy a direct copy now. On the other hand i am tried of these solo-everything, mindlessly easy combat, point to point guide, loot piñata MMOs we have now. There is no sense of wonder, exploration, discovery, or mystery in any of these newer games anymore. You just follow the yellow icons, gain enough experience, and collect your end game loot.
Honestly whether they get it from EQ or VG or what ever game they want to borrow from, all I want is to play in a living (dangerous) world to get lost in, not some UI with a fantasy world in the background. I dont think making another 'grind' or 'overly punishing' game would work either but id be happy with some sort of middle ground. I dont want to quest my way to cap in a week, but I also dont want to be killing rats for months just to gain a few levels. I dont want to depend on groups every where I go but I do want it to be heavily encouraged, even outside of dungeons. I really hope every idea they have is geared towards a more immersive realism and not just ease of use or convenience. Like a Baldurs Gate/NWN/Icewind Dale kind of game in an EQ/Vanguard type design, with other players as companions.
Dullahan said:Vanguard was EQ2 with combos. Same nonstop combat with very little downtime, multiple hotbars of abilities, spamming fast cooldowns, rotating in the longer. I'm sure there are some classes that will have a bit of a different flavor, making the experience seem considerably different between the games, but as someone who played melees in both games, it was nearly identical.
The problem is that I can dilute the combat systems of several games down to those criteria. It's not fundamentally descriptive enough to chew to the core of how different EQ2 and VG actually are.
This isn't an exhaustive list but I think it serves my point well. The first 3 points are the ones that are most relevant to the differences between the games.
Your experience with EQ2 would have to have been fundamentally different from mine to reasonably conclude that the combat systems are more similar than dissimilar.
Rallyd said:I would rank combat for me as such : EQ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FFXI>>>>>>>>Vanilla WoW>>>Vanguard>EQ2
The distance determines the value for me. EQ was by far and away the best system of any MMO I have played because of it's resource management system, and bathroom-breakable downtime (TM).
FFXI was similar to EQ, only the downtime was significantly less, the only reason I put it so far away from EQ is because the controls were/are TERRIBLE.
Vanilla WoW had resource management, and a lot of it, but it had virtually no downtime, however it made up for it by being the second easiest to control game outside of Everquest, control, not play.
Vanguard, while I do not have too many memories of classic because I didn't stay long, to me was spammy with next to zero downtime. By spammy I mean you could use an ability every single time on GCD and never run out of resources to do so. This is a serious flaw in design.
EQ2 was basically an identical combat system to Vanguard, with very few minor differences like skill chains. No downtime, spam an ability every time GCD is up (Not saying there isnt skill to it, just saying you can't take your fingers off the keys for half a second)
All that being said, I would like to see EQ style combat systems, but with better fleshed out classes like Vanguard had. Resource management should be absolutely critical to gameplay, burning through resources should also be possible, but at a cost of major downtime.
Example : Group pulls too many mobs to camp without properly splitting, group does not have proper CC, so a burn is called to 1-2 of the mobs to keep them from wiping the group, in this situation if you have enough resources you should be able to take them down and survive, if played well.. however, afterwards you should need to take a significant break to recover from your mistake. In Everquest, it could take a caster with 3000 mana 600 seconds to meditate from 0% mana to 100% mana, that's 10 minutes. Now I'm not saying we need something over the top like 10 minutes, but I think it should be no less than 5. Also every class in the game should be under these resource restrictions, not just casters like in Everquest.
Well put. This encourages/promotes the player to make wise decisions in every aspect of the fight (every fight). Everything from the group composition, to the pull, and the actual fight will determine the players decisions with tons of different ourcomes. One single level 4 orc camp could have many different possibilites and outcomes. This is what gives a game that feel we are looking forward to. Resource management is key, unless you have an EQ enchanter of course (great class btw).
skelly said:Well put. This encourages/promotes the player to make wise decisions in every aspect of the fight (every fight). Everything from the group composition, to the pull, and the actual fight will determine the players decisions with tons of different ourcomes. One single level 4 orc camp could have many different possibilites and outcomes. This is what gives a game that feel we are looking forward to. Resource management is key, unless you have an EQ enchanter of course (great class btw).
I don't think a single thing here is mutually exclusive with a combat system like VG/EQ2.
Whew, heavy topic, lots of great posts.
Let me respond by asking a question:
Do you feel VG was a clone of EQ, or a sequel, or a spritual sucessor, or what?
I ask because your answer to that question will probably be similar to how you feel about Pantheon when you play it.
For us, Pantheon is its own game with lots of new features and ideas and we truly feel it will evolve the genre and hopefully in a positive way :)
At the same time, it's being built around core concepts and fundamentals that began back in the days of MUDs, then heavily influenced EQ, VG, and some other games to varying degrees.
I've also posted that ideas I was never able to get into EQ and VG will make their way into Pantheon, either before or after launch.
Also you have people working on the game who worked on EQ and/or VG.
And we've also said that if you enjoyed EQ and VG then you are part of the audience we are targeting.
What does that exactly make Pantheon? Well, ultimately, that will be up to each of you I think.
Spiritual successor for certain. Vanguard maintained its own identity but managed to keep a lot of the core of EQ's greatness, such as the high dependence on other players, quests being used sparingly and almost always offering unique/worthwhile rewards.
It's not close enough to EQ to be a true sequel, but it's close enough that you can see EQ bleed through in a lot of areas. That about sums it up to me.
What truely made VG great to me was the world. How awesome it was to be running around with a group and say hey whats that over there ? Some stairs ? Hell let go in and all of a sudden your in a huge dungeon fighting for you life. There where so many things do and see they really messed the game up with hunters league gear and increasing the EXP rate. I know this is off the combat subject but more towards what Brad was asking. If you guys can bring the imersion and since of wonder and adventure VG had i will be thrilled no matter what kind of combat it has. But i already know you guys can and will. So right now im sitting and dreaming of the day i can step into your knew world . TY
Aradune said:Do you feel VG was a clone of EQ, or a sequel, or a spritual sucessor, or what?
Vanguard was all three depending upon which aspect of the games you are examining. Although I did like some aspect of Vanguard, I liked less of the whole than either EQ1 or even EQ2 unfortunately. The world design was better than EQ1/2 with the sense of scale and proportions more realistic. Yet within the world things were very similar. NPCs still just stood around like idiots with barely a roamer or two with no NPC living area even seeming remotely alive. Vendors stood at their store counters day or night. Mobs still reacted the same as always, rushing towards whoever aggroed them to get into melee range..even caster NPCs. Nothing acted as its class should. Raids, even the APW which so many tout as being brilliant, had the same feeling as any later-EQ1 expansion raid: Enter..face yard trash, move to mini-boss, clear trash then pull mini-boss putting tank in a corner and everyone else behind mob, clear more trash to next mini-boss. Occassionally there is some hiding behind a pillar to avoid some AE.
If you are wanting something better, make the world ALIVE. Stop having NPCs standing around unless it makes sense for them to do so. That Gnoll infested ancient castle should have some static guards..that's what guards do. But otherwise there should be movement everywhere, Gnolls going about the business of survival. And make them act like their class for once, giving the the same spells and abilities that we have at the same level. Raid mechanics need improved, less predictability, more 'flavor' in terms of requiring proper reactions by players to events.
Aradune said:Whew, heavy topic, lots of great posts.
Let me respond by asking a question:
Do you feel VG was a clone of EQ, or a sequel, or a spritual sucessor, or what?
I ask because your answer to that question will probably be similar to how you feel about Pantheon when you play it.
For us, Pantheon is its own game with lots of new features and ideas and we truly feel it will evolve the genre and hopefully in a positive way :)
At the same time, it's being built around core concepts and fundamentals that began back in the days of MUDs, then heavily influenced EQ, VG, and some other games to varying degrees.
I've also posted that ideas I was never able to get into EQ and VG will make their way into Pantheon, either before or after launch.
Also you have people working on the game who worked on EQ and/or VG.
And we've also said that if you enjoyed EQ and VG then you are part of the audience we are targeting.
What does that exactly make Pantheon? Well, ultimately, that will be up to each of you I think.
To me Vanguard was a spiritual successor, I bought the collectors edition to play the beta (this was my first beta ever) and what I experienced was a game that I felt needed at least 6 months to a year more time. Many areas of the game were empty, the world seemed too big with too little going on. Everquests zones felt alive, every inch of them was meant for something, or used for something, there were no dead zones.
I'm all for Pantheon being something new, however I know action combat and dodging around is all the rage right now and I really hope thats not the route we go, because that is the thing that discourages me the most about new games in the past 5 years. Take Final Fantasy 7 for example, a purely active-time battle system (turn based) that is going to be remade into a full on action hack and slash RPG. This is to the dismay of almost every fan who ever asked for the remake in the first place. They will alienate nearly every single old school FF7 fan, simply to attempt to bring in the younger generation who know nothing else but action combat.
If Pantheon ends up like the FF7 remake, that's the only way I'll be disappointed. Heavy resource management combat, with a reliance on auto-attacks, not EQ2 or VG where you need to use an ability every second nonstop forever with no downtime. If I want to play Mortal Kombat in an MMO format, there are dozens of games out there that fill that role already.
Rallyd said:Aradune said:Whew, heavy topic, lots of great posts.
Let me respond by asking a question:
Do you feel VG was a clone of EQ, or a sequel, or a spritual sucessor, or what?
I ask because your answer to that question will probably be similar to how you feel about Pantheon when you play it.
For us, Pantheon is its own game with lots of new features and ideas and we truly feel it will evolve the genre and hopefully in a positive way :)
At the same time, it's being built around core concepts and fundamentals that began back in the days of MUDs, then heavily influenced EQ, VG, and some other games to varying degrees.
I've also posted that ideas I was never able to get into EQ and VG will make their way into Pantheon, either before or after launch.
Also you have people working on the game who worked on EQ and/or VG.
And we've also said that if you enjoyed EQ and VG then you are part of the audience we are targeting.
What does that exactly make Pantheon? Well, ultimately, that will be up to each of you I think.
To me Vanguard was a spiritual successor, I bought the collectors edition to play the beta (this was my first beta ever) and what I experienced was a game that I felt needed at least 6 months to a year more time. Many areas of the game were empty, the world seemed too big with too little going on. Everquests zones felt alive, every inch of them was meant for something, or used for something, there were no dead zones.
I'm all for Pantheon being something new, however I know action combat and dodging around is all the rage right now and I really hope thats not the route we go, because that is the thing that discourages me the most about new games in the past 5 years. Take Final Fantasy 7 for example, a purely active-time battle system (turn based) that is going to be remade into a full on action hack and slash RPG. This is to the dismay of almost every fan who ever asked for the remake in the first place. They will alienate nearly every single old school FF7 fan, simply to attempt to bring in the younger generation who know nothing else but action combat.
If Pantheon ends up like the FF7 remake, that's the only way I'll be disappointed. Heavy resource management combat, with a reliance on auto-attacks, not EQ2 or VG where you need to use an ability every second nonstop forever with no downtime. If I want to play Mortal Kombat in an MMO format, there are dozens of games out there that fill that role already.
preach it
Aradune said:I've also posted that ideas I was never able to get into EQ and VG will make their way into Pantheon, either before or after launch.
Also you have people working on the game who worked on EQ and/or VG.
And we've also said that if you enjoyed EQ and VG then you are part of the audience we are targeting.
What does that exactly make Pantheon? Well, ultimately, that will be up to each of you I think.
Can't wait to find out what ideas you had that didn't make it into EQ or VG!
