Cromulent said:Sevens said:Seriously no one is really wanting an EQ clone...all that I, and a few others, on here are fighting for is the game they promised us at the start. What we argue for is that any new feature brought in is properly vetted so that it fits in with the spirit of the old school mmos (EQ and Vanguard). Really the only reason most on here use EQ as a reference is that is all we know, that is when we had the most fun in an mmo so anything that distracts from that we are cautious about.
OK that is fair enough. But I have certainly seen people shoot down ideas simply because they diverged from what EQ did in the past and that is a bad thing imo. Innovation is what drives the human race and is what drives us to create new and interesting things. You can take ideas from the past and expand on them and still innovate but copying is never innovation. I think that is an important point that should be made.
Sevens said:And all the ****** saying we are just wearing rose tinted glasses, dont try and tell me how I feel, what I want. We were promised a game in a certain niche and that is what we will fight for, you want just another run of the mill mmo, there are a million of them out there. Have fun
Whoa. How wrong could you be.
If you had read my previous posts (it is obvious you didn't because you are accusing me of saying you are looking through rose tinted glasses which I have never said at all in any thread on this entire forum) you would realise that I am a huge EQ fan and certainly want a hardcore MMO. In fact I am so keen for Pantheon to be a hardcore MMO I've spent $1000 to try and make sure it become a reality. This line really shows the problem that I am trying to illustrate in my post. Anyone who wants innovation and a little bit of change is instantly accussed of wanting a run of the mill MMO which is designed for casuals. Well done for proving my point for me.
I am terribly sorry Cromulent...that was in no way directed at you...I do apologize. It was in another thread I guess where some other poster had mentioned all the old time EQ players were just looking through rose tinted glasses, I have heard that every since I left EQ and its just one of those things that irrates me to no end. I have actully thought that you and I agreed on more that we have disagreed, I most definitely dont see you as a WoW kiddy or even someone pushing alot of the new fangled mmo comforts
I have played all four games mentioned in this thread about combat: Eq,EQ2,WoW & Vanguard, so my personal experience and taste for the combat would rank Eq2's the one I liked the most, and Vanguard last. I use Voice communication when I play, if I didnt use voice, I would have to rank EQ first. My favorite combat was in The Secret World (how's that for openmindedness) - but that is not for this game ;)
I have played most of the new games too (even enjoyed them)and what it does is it gives you an idea of what can be added to a game like Pantheon, but more importantly it gives you an appreciation for the old ways. So even if they are a "WoW" kiddy give them some respect - they have a perspective that you do not have -there is a reason why so many people play that game.
I already paid money for Everquest 3 (Next Landmark) look where that got me :D
Zarriya said:I have played all four games mentioned in this thread about combat: Eq,EQ2,WoW & Vanguard, so my personal experience and taste for the combat would rank Eq2's the one I liked the most, and Vanguard last.
I can't understand how that is even possible. EQ2 is like Vanguard without the strategy, reactives and chains. Mostly, just a lot of rotations.
Dullahan said:Zarriya said:I have played all four games mentioned in this thread about combat: Eq,EQ2,WoW & Vanguard, so my personal experience and taste for the combat would rank Eq2's the one I liked the most, and Vanguard last.
I can't understand how that is even possible. EQ2 is like Vanguard without the strategy, reactives and chains. Mostly, just a lot of rotations.
You cant understand why someone would have a personal preference? Why some one likes the color blue over green? It is not an argument over what is better, it is what I LIKED better. I am going to pretend you asked, why I felt that way :) I didnt like staring at my hotbar. I love reactive combat, I love dodging in other games, but in those games I am looking at the center of my screen for tells of my reactions, not at my hotbar. I am not a fan of chains. It's ok for me to like one way and not the other :D For reference for my above quote; I would take EQ's combat in a heart beat.
The funny thing is you agree with me:
Dullahan said:I'd argue Vanguard also brought a lot of staring intently at your hotbars and early onset of carpal tunnel from mashing abilities following every global cooldown. I liked a lot of things about Vanguard, the combat was not one of them - despite the well designed classes.
I would not say I disliked Vanguard's combat, I would say I enjoyed others more. This thread is about open-mindedness btw :)
Angrykiz said:For me EQ2's combat was spammy and allowed very little strategy.
After raids my wrists would hurt from doing the rotations over and over and over...
This is the only game that did that to me.
Kiz~
hmmm I played healers in the raids -they are very reactionary. I am wondering if I played DPS, if I would feel that way. See open-mindedness helps us think from other's perspectives!
Sorry about your wrists, I am glad it is just for that game. I play too much lol - my wrists used hurt a lot too during all games, I switched to a keyboard with support, and that helped so much; too bad they do not make my favorite model anymore. (Omitting name in case it is considered advertisement)
I think we are all wanting Pantheon to be Pantheon. It's just that everyone likes to chime in and mention their favorite play mechanics from older games and slam the mechanics that they hated. A LOT of us have played EQ for countless hours so you will see more posts mentioning EQ. Just my two cents worth :)
Cromulent said:Basically my whole original post can be summarised as this:
I am just making a plea to the community to try and be a little bit more open minded about new ideas.
I'll edit my orginal post to add that in so that my post isn't taken out of context.
I think for the most part, most people are open minded, most discussions about things evolve into "I liked this in EQ/VG, but if Pantheon would improve upon it by doing 'this', it would be an asset to Pantheon". There have been plenty of ideas discussed here that were based on the simpler mechanics of EQ/VG but with enhancements to fit a modern day MMO.
Fulton said:Cromulent said:Basically my whole original post can be summarised as this:
I am just making a plea to the community to try and be a little bit more open minded about new ideas.
I'll edit my orginal post to add that in so that my post isn't taken out of context.
I think for the most part, most people are open minded, most discussions about things evolve into "I liked this in EQ/VG, but if Pantheon would improve upon it by doing 'this', it would be an asset to Pantheon". There have been plenty of ideas discussed here that were based on the simpler mechanics of EQ/VG but with enhancements to fit a modern day MMO.
Yeah I think I worded this whole thread very badly. I wish I could could go back and re-explain what I meant. I wasn't trying to be offensive or controversial at all I just want this game to have all that I loved and MORE. I don't have a problem at all with this game taking inspiration from EQ and VG. I played both games and enjoyed them both immensely I just want something extra that wasn't in both games that can move the genre forward a little bit as well.
I do have to say I've been reading this forum pretty regularly now and have seen some great ideas that the community have posted that I would be really excited about seeing pop up in Pantheon and generally in the few instances when people disagree with each other people in this forum discuss things in a mature and intelligent manner which is really nice to see and makes me even more excited to see what the community of Pantheon will be like when the game eventually releases.
I'm wording this really badly and it means that I am making my point badly as well. I would go back and edit my original post but I don't believe in hiding what I said originally (and it wouldn't matter even if I did because people have already quoted it so editing it would be pointless).
Please don't take this thread offensively. It wasn't intended that way. Just as a way to promote a bit of "thinking outside the box" brain storming.
Hey Cromulent,
I really enjoyed your post and the reminder that everyone needs to keep an open mind! In my opinion, don't worry about wording, I like seeing the thought process behind what you are getting at and I liked seeing that in the post. I really think that Pantheon has a strong community and am very glad all of you posting here are part of it.
Thanks for the post Zar, ya I played a DPS and it was the same rotation repeated for hours on end.
Thinking back I bet it was a completely different experience playing a healer.
That keyboard does look cool... I've been using a G-13 for a while now because its nice to control character movement with my left thumb on the stick.
Kiz~
EQ2 raiding didn't have rotations. I guess maybe if you played a wizard, but the combat was far too reactionary to allow for something like a "true" rotation.
Having raided in EQ2 for several years I can say that the combat wasn't really spammy at all. Parsing well in EQ2 took some skill.
Liav said:EQ2 raiding didn't have rotations. I guess maybe if you played a wizard, but the combat was far too reactionary to allow for something like a "true" rotation.
Having raided in EQ2 for several years I can say that the combat wasn't really spammy at all. Parsing well in EQ2 took some skill.
Angrykiz said:I played a wizard...
Too funny. The Dps class I played the most was the Wizard as well and is what I was thinking of in regards to Kiz's post.
Liav said:I want EQish mechanics with a Vanguardish combat system in a modern engine.
Some tenets of EQ and Vanguard I believe should be discarded, but I think a hybrid of those two games with some unique twists is about what I want Pantheon to be.
I think this pretty much covers what I'm looking for in PRTF. I am excited for new content ofcourse but proven mechanics and gameplay for the hardcore is what I need to stay involved in a game. I leave or don't even get new MMO's because of the easy mode. Bring back the risk and I'm there!
My hope is that rather than Everquest 3, we get a sequel to Everquest 1. I make that distinction, because Everquest 2 was nothing like Everquest 1.
I am not looking for a clone, but for something that really captures much of the game mechanics which Everquest 1 used to do so very well.
A few examples:
1) Holy Trinity combat system (Enourages everyone to work together, it's how you meet people and find new friends; fights should last more than a few seconds and require some strategic thought)
2) Dungeon crawls and camping (Quests can add fun and interesting elements, but quest completions should not be a viable means of leveling your character; no to instances, MMOs should be competitive)
3) Dangerous world (Possibilities for setbacks)
4) Dynamic in-game economy (Ecourages exploration for rare materials and trading, allowing those who put in the effort to aquire wealth within the game, helps cement social aspects of the game)
5) Complex factions (Think of old world EQ factions, was almost a game in and of itself, especially beneficial for those who played on the PvP servers)
6) Tradeskills that provided real valuable items that people wanted and took time and effort to increase (Should be a pretty good 'career' in and of itself, Vanguard had some good ideas and SWG as well)
7) Interesting and interdependent classes that need not be 'balanced' (Each class should fill important roles, which means they cannot be equal or balanced, they do some things well and others not so well)
8) Slow leveling (The ability to have something to show for your effort, where you can meaningfully put some distance between someone who has played the game for year(s) vs someone just starting)
9) Meaningful travel (Allows for more interdependence by making such classes such Druid (rings) and Wizard (spires) totally helpful in a group)
10) Iconic and valuable buffing system (Think Spirit of the Wolf, Clarity, Alacrity, ect..)
I believe that a lot of the list above no longer exists within the currently running Everquest 1 game. Taking the list above and thinking of ways to make those systems even more complex, more interesting, and deeper with more and more layers will make Pantheon a very fun and hopefully somewhat addicting game, such as Everquest 1 used to be.
Well as somone who played EQ from launch until GoD and left it for Vanguard i bet you can guess how i feel about the combat. Vanguards combat was a hell of alot more fun and the raids in my opinion. (note: my opinion). I much rather have command of all my abilities and spells and actually use them. Versus having some of my spells standing around auto atking and waiting on refresh timers . If you havent played Vanguard but you have played EQ2 then you know what i mean. I also played EQ2 for years up until the recent expacs wich made all old gear useless because they lacked the insane dmg procs. Now im not flaming EQ. I loved EQ played for years and will always have found memories of it. But after playing Vanguard or EQ2 i just couldnt go back to auto atking. Most boring class ever EQ warrior taunt auto atk ya look at me. (i can feel the anger building). Oh and if you call it it button mashing go play EQ2 and raid with hardcore guilds and see what happens if you dont have your cast orders down and know what and when to do it. I would say Vanguard but alas it is no more. So in closing i really dont want to see a copy of any of the games i have mentioned but if i had to choose a combat style i would much rather the VG/EQ2 style of combat.
Zarriya said:You cant understand why someone would have a personal preference? Why some one likes the color blue over green? It is not an argument over what is better, it is what I LIKED better. I am going to pretend you asked, why I felt that way :) I didnt like staring at my hotbar. I love reactive combat, I love dodging in other games, but in those games I am looking at the center of my screen for tells of my reactions, not at my hotbar. I am not a fan of chains. It's ok for me to like one way and not the other :D For reference for my above quote; I would take EQ's combat in a heart beat.
The funny thing is you agree with me:
Dullahan said:I'd argue Vanguard also brought a lot of staring intently at your hotbars and early onset of carpal tunnel from mashing abilities following every global cooldown. I liked a lot of things about Vanguard, the combat was not one of them - despite the well designed classes.
I would not say I disliked Vanguard's combat, I would say I enjoyed others more. This thread is about open-mindedness btw :)
There was nothing close-minded in my post, merely stating I don't know how someone could put two combat systems of the same cloth on opposite ends of the spectrum. Of those 4, they are, arguably, the two most alike. Was it just that there was too much rather than the simplicity of the ability rotations of EQ2 and WoW?
Liav said:EQ2 raiding didn't have rotations. I guess maybe if you played a wizard, but the combat was far too reactionary to allow for something like a "true" rotation.
Having raided in EQ2 for several years I can say that the combat wasn't really spammy at all. Parsing well in EQ2 took some skill.
Ya, it definitely did. You may have had more abilities than newer MMOs (as did Vanguard), with varying cooldowns, but it always came back to those rotations. You also used an ability every time it was up, so by definition, it was spammy.
Dullahan said:Ya, it definitely did. You may have had more abilities than newer MMOs (like Vanguard), with varying cooldowns, but it always came back to those rotations. You also used an ability every time it was up, so by definition, it was spammy.
I disagree. There are abilities you prioritize over other abilities depending on what isn't on cooldown, and you indeed should be pressing an ability at any given time if you have one available.
Calling something like that "spammy" kind of implies that it's mindless, to me, and mindless players always get outperformed.
Theun said:Well as somone who played EQ from launch until GoD and left it for Vanguard i bet you can guess how i feel about the combat. Vanguards combat was a hell of alot more fun and the raids in my opinion. (note: my opinion). I much rather have command of all my abilities and spells and actually use them. Versus having some of my spells standing around auto atking and waiting on refresh timers . If you havent played Vanguard but you have played EQ2 then you know what i mean. I also played EQ2 for years up until the recent expacs wich made all old gear useless because they lacked the insane dmg procs. Now im not flaming EQ. I loved EQ played for years and will always have found memories of it. But after playing Vanguard or EQ2 i just couldnt go back to auto atking. Most boring class ever EQ warrior taunt auto atk ya look at me. (i can feel the anger building). Oh and if you call it it button mashing go play EQ2 and raid with hardcore guilds and see what happens if you dont have your cast orders down and know what and when to do it. I would say Vanguard but alas it is no more. So in closing i really dont want to see a copy of any of the games i have mentioned but if i had to choose a combat style i would much rather the VG/EQ2 style of combat.
I am with you there, man ;)
Dullahan said:Was it just that there was too much rather than the simplicity of the ability rotations of EQ2 and WoW?
nope. I really liked TERA's complex combat. I wouldn't want it for Pantheon. Its ok for me to have a different opinion from you; that is what this thread is about.
I played EQ until 2 years ago when career direction forced me to stop.
I pretty much can reiterate what Trustar said.
I'm looking for the sequel to EverQuest. I didn't really 'feel' EQ2 was it ... or anything else since.
If there's positive enhancements to be made upon the core EverQuest experience I'm totally down with that.
So far from what all has been announced, I've faith.
If VR can pull it off ... it'll be an achievement.
I would yell "take my money!" if EQ could be redone with a modern game engine, but I think Pantheon can be better.