Korocus said:Ok after reading most of this entire post I had a good little chuckle and have to say most of what was said makes little sence.
1) if it's in the game and you don't want to use it don't use it. That goes for auction houses looking for group dungeon finder or what ever mechanics like that are PLAYERS choice not mandatory.
2) having no AH is just for players who want to stay in an area and farm selling items to people who run to them. If you want to sell something and you have to leave the area to sell it and lose th....
Completely wrong and that's the argument used extensively by the folks who ruined the MMORPG genre - make the game fast/simple/dumb.....if you don't like it don't use it.
Terrible argument without any understanding that it changes the entire world of the game. That's like saying "put instant travel everywhere and if you dont want it dont use it" Well, anyone who tries to experience long travel will get left behind and miss out on everythnig because others lookign for instant gratification will use it.
its the stupidest argument.
fazool said:Korocus said: Ok after reading most of this entire post I had a good little chuckle and have to say most of what was said makes little sence.Completely wrong and that's the argument used extensively by the folks who ruined the MMORPG genre - make the game fast/simple/dumb.....if you don't like it don't use it...its the stupidest argument.1) if it's in the game and you don't want to use it don't use it. That goes for auction houses looking for group dungeon finder or what ever mechanics like that are PLAYERS choice not mandatory.
2) having no AH is just for players who want to stay in an area and farm selling items to people who run to them. If you want to sell something and you have to leave the area to sell it and lose th....
I think you're right, but crikey did you need to smash his opinion back into his face with your hammer behind it? :)
NoobieDoo said:I want to see the auction house eradicated from Pantheon. I hope they do not plan on implementing one. There are so many good things that can come from not having this magical auction house where a player opens up a window with a vendor and from all over the world items are magically delivered right to your feet.
For one, I always just thought auction houses were silly and lazy.
But for more practical reasons. If houses are ever implemented into game this could give them much more purpose. If there is no auction house then players could build their homes and place a vendor there that could sell their wares. This would help keep areas populated that would otherwise not be very populated. Remember housing in VG? Houses NEED purpose and anything to give them purpose would be a welcome change from VG.
Even if player housing cannot contain vendors to sell their items at least NPCs around the local towns and cities could. Again this is is a great way to keep areas populated that would otherwise not stay very populate over the course of the years.
It could create a much more social environment where crafter's wares are spread by word of mouth. Having an auction house nobody has to talk about anything because all you have to do is head to the vendor and look all the crap up. Without an AH crafters and players both have to be more vocal about their goods and if implemented properly by the devs this could create a more social game. Which is what the devs are trying to do right?
IF there was no auction house in Pantheon then the unique recipe idea could gain a lot more traction. Whether or not it is a single player who can create the item or a very small select group of people who can create it, if there is no auction house then the players seeking out these very rare items have to travel by foot across the lands to find said item. Now it creates a much more involved atmosphere where the crafter has to spread his rare items by word of mouth and the players seeking out said items have to retrieve these items through their journeys. Imagine being in a group and hearing from some random member who is from the North talk about a guy who just learned this unique recipe and can create one of the most strongest shields in the game. If you are a tank in need of one of the strongest shields in the game you may have just stumbled upon a little adventure for yourself, especially if there is no instant fast travel and you actually have to journey there by foot and mount.
I'm sure there are many other benefits to not having an auction house but it's late and I'm pretty much burnt out right about now. And I'm sure a few of you will tell me why auction houses are so great. But I assure you they are not. They suck and are lazy and if we are to have an immersive world that prides itself on social interaction and group involvement then we need to do away with the AH. Getting rid of it will help us depend on each other a little more and help us to stay social. :D
I disagree I prefer an auction house over for example CL tunnel. I hate the idea of spending what little time I have to play sitting around waiting for people to sell an item that I'm looking for. I do however agree you can create other ideas that would make things easier and more in line of an actual bazaar for example. You could place your items for sale in front of your house on a message board for example or NPC that somebody can view what you have placed for sale. If you are a tradeskiller you could possibly increase the number of items for sale and have a special tradeskill station or sign that attaches to your home that shows exactly what you are selling.
Sevens said:Im 100% with the no auction house..no bazaar, no automated trading what so ever
You want to sell, head to the local zone that is designated for trade (starting cities anyone) and spend the day hawking your wares
You want to buy, head to the same place and search for the best deal you can. Its a great system that worked wonderfully in EQ. It helps build a community, soon people get to be known for their wares. One thing I hope they avoid is allowing everyone to do every tradeskill. If you are a chef you shouldnt be a armorer too. Just seemed silly in EQ that you could master out every TS
I don't mind not having an AH but dislike the tunnel in Commonlands. I would be ok with a designated zone where I could place a vendor or set myself up to sell items on or off line.
Sevens said:Linkamus said:I'm sure I will be in the minority on this one, but I loved how the bazaar functioned in EQ. I loved leaving my character on overnight to wake up and see a spam of yellow text :) .
My big complaint about the bazaar is that it takes away player interaction
If there was somehow a way to list your items and prices when you were off line so ppl could leave you a message
and next time you log on you contact them and work out a place to meet and price blah blah blah
I've had practically zero interaction with people selling items in commonlands they spam OOC and general say with what they are selling. Eventually an auction channel was created but the most interacton that I've ever encountered is "I would like to buy X item" "ok where are you" trade window cash - item. Interaction complete. Added zero fun for me TBH.
Sevens said:One thing I would really like to see if there is any kind of home bound npc auto seller...
The need to have a merchants license to sell so that not just any tom dick or harry can flood the market with every little piece of trash they find.
To recieve your merchants license you must first be a master in a trade skill...I mean honestly only people with a skill would open a shop. Not only would you be required to pay a tax (nothing as extreme as a consignment shop just a local sales tax) but you would have a monthly fee to maintain your good standing as a merchant. Also you would be restricted to selling wares that were related to your Tradeskill...bakers sell baked goods, Armorers sell armor and repairs etc etc....Now you could open a general merchants shop without being a master TSer....but it would be a pretty hefty fee for a merchants license. As a general merchant you could sell pretty much most items that are not restricted to the specialty shops, such as most TS items (spider silks, pelts and so forth) you could also sell items that are needed but not provided else where....bat wings, bone chips and others. I know this is a rough form idea and would need a bunch of tweaking but I could see something like this working well.
You could still sell big item drops on the "black market"
As part of your membership in the trade guild your wares would be posted on a billboard (for lack of a better word) but would also be local only....but maybe for an extra fee you could take out ads in other cities so your name and wares could start to get an international reputation
And even with prices being listed on a Billboard you would still need to locate that shop and transact your business there
I like these ideas.
Anasyn said:I'm in 100% disagreement with what you have posted. :) I think in EQ this worked only in favor of those people who didn't have a job or worked at home and could afford to spend the whole day sitting in front of a computer selling their items. They could do the exact thing people did with AH and buy low and sell high. Most players probably only play 2-5 hours max a day and they probably don't want to spend more then 15-30 minutes selling and buying items.
This is not true, especially with an AH system like WoW. Items flood the market as players can have items selling on the AH while they are playing their main, and they can have 8 other alts selling items on the AH if there is an item limit that can be sold. Especially with a global AH, but regional AH's would still have the same effect. And, even, with a bazaar system either offline/online like EQ, you still would see it, but to a lesser extent with multiple accounts and/or afk players.
With an EC style system, or the system I discussed/proposed with Amsai, if you have to be physically present, you could still buy low/sell high like you said if you played 24 hours, but the market wouldn't be flooded with a surplus of items as the people selling the items would also have to be physically present. Also, it would take time away from adventuring to sell. Or, the person would have to purchase multiple accounts. However, it's nearly impossible to monopolize the market at that point as someone would have to play 24/7 and hope that there was only one zone that items were sold in.
And, it's a stretch to say you don't want to spend 2-5 hours a day to sell. No one who disliked selling did that in EQ. At best, they might collect 15 items or so to bring to the EC, and spend 4 hours trying to auction there wares once a month, definitely not every day. You'd be lucky to get a couple drops worth selling in a day. And, typically even then, if someone is impatient, they could sell low to off-load their goods quickly and get back to adventuring in much less than 4 hours.
The argument that there's plenty of things that people probably don't want to spend their time on is exactly what has swung the pendulum to extreme convenience in MMORPGs versus a virtual world. If you want an EQ experience, time has to be invested. IF someone can play 24 hours a day versus your 2-4. They should be rewarded more. There's no reason that me playing 2 hours should be able to obtain the rewards at an equal pace as someone that played 24 hours. Obviously this assumes we're equal skill levels, etc.
It's just a matter of changing expectations. One gameplay session every couple weeks or a month might be more tedious, and you might level slower than you wanted. However, that's not a bad thing. I've repeated it ad naseum - gameplay can't always be "fun" 100%. It can't always be exactly the style of gameplay you want. You need the boring, tedius, monotonous, hard, painful, frustrating to better appreciate the highs. This isn't nostalgia glasses, as my play time will be more limited, it's just not wanting to have Terminus cater to me, but, rather it exist and I find a way to "make it work."
With that said, I do believe there can be a happy medium, which is why I had tried to brainstorm some ideas previously, but the compromise shouldn't be at the expense of gameplay for convenience.
Anasyn said:Sevens said:Linkamus said:I'm sure I will be in the minority on this one, but I loved how the bazaar functioned in EQ. I loved leaving my character on overnight to wake up and see a spam of yellow text :) .
My big complaint about the bazaar is that it takes away player interaction
If there was somehow a way to list your items and prices when you were off line so ppl could leave you a message
and next time you log on you contact them and work out a place to meet and price blah blah blah
I've had practically zero interaction with people selling items in commonlands they spam OOC and general say with what they are selling. Eventually an auction channel was created but the most interacton that I've ever encountered is "I would like to buy X item" "ok where are you" trade window cash - item. Interaction complete. Added zero fun for me TBH.
Krixus said:There are several very positive reasons to not have an automated auction house and seemingly only one reason TO have one: convenience.
Automated trade is not bad, if done on a One on One basis. (Not a "all-in-one shopping" under one roof like an auction house).
There should be no automated "for sale" item search/scripting, or automated search function within game/UI. Auction houses are counter to a living world, counter to travel & counter to a functioning society. To find, or buy something your character should be at point of contact... & once to that point, selling/trading can be interactive, or as automated as you want.
NoobieDoo said:Krixus said:There are several very positive reasons to not have an automated auction house and seemingly only one reason TO have one: convenience.I'm seeing this as well. I don't think I've seen any other arguments for having one. And whenever a feature is wanted SOLELY on convenience I think we have to discard that. I'm all for convenience but it has to be larger than that.
Oh come on you've seen lots of reasons for having one, you just disagree with them or feel there is a negative aspect that renders them undesirable.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but sometimes not having something is purely an INconvenience and there is no good reason to not have it except to avoid development effort. Sure, pure convenience is pointless, but needless inconvenience is also to be avoided.
Sure I had "some fun" in EC. Sometimes. Sometimes it was just a long boring trip in order repeatedly hit a macro key and do some trivial online chat. Most of the time I vendored stuff someone else would have loved to have bought because I didn't have the time to go to EC and spam trade chat. I had some fun, but rarely enough to not justify the inconvenience imho.
I'm pretty sure VR have said that they want people to be able to play in 2 hour slots. That's quite a different emphasis to the way EQ was played. If EQ had catered more for people with less time to spare, maybe it would have added some kind of trading helper. I don't want an auction house, but I want something.
fazool said:
Completely wrong and that's the argument used extensively by the folks who ruined the MMORPG genre - make the game fast/simple/dumb.....if you don't like it don't use it.
Terrible argument without any understanding that it changes the entire world of the game. That's like saying "put instant travel everywhere and if you dont want it dont use it" Well, anyone who tries to experience long travel will get left behind and miss out on everythnig because others lookign for instant gratification will use it.
its the stupidest argument.
Not that I don't hate the use of that argument sometimes (becuase sometimes it is wrong to use) but it is definitely valid in some cases.
ex: "I don't like ranged classes" So don't use it. (naturally a valid response as its silly to remove ranged classes when some people don't like them, they have alternatives and some people like them)
"I don't like crafting" So don't do it. (same as the above, it does somewhat depend on what alternative avenues are available but most mmos offer several routes to obtaining things and crafting is almost always reasonably optional)
Further, in the argument against having an auction house you are subjecting people to an even more harsh lack of option than they would be subjecting you to by having one. No auction house? Only option is player to player trade. Auctionhouse? Maybe few people would do it but player to player trade could still exist and potentially thrive. So the argument there is somewhat neutral, either choice would subject the players in favor of the other to something that they don't desire.
Raidan said:Anasyn said:I'm in 100% disagreement with what you have posted. :) I think in EQ this worked only in favor of those people who didn't have a job or worked at home and could afford to spend the whole day sitting in front of a computer selling their items. They could do the exact thing people did with AH and buy low and sell high. Most players probably only play 2-5 hours max a day and they probably don't want to spend more then 15-30 minutes selling and buying items.
This is not true, especially with an AH system like WoW. Items flood the market as players can have items selling on the AH while they are playing their main, and they can have 8 other alts selling items on the AH if there is an item limit that can be sold. Especially with a global AH, but regional AH's would still have the same effect. And, even, with a bazaar system either offline/online like EQ, you still would see it, but to a lesser extent with multiple accounts and/or afk players.
With an EC style system, or the system I discussed/proposed with Amsai, if you have to be physically present, you could still buy low/sell high like you said if you played 24 hours, but the market wouldn't be flooded with a surplus of items as the people selling the items would also have to be physically present. Also, it would take time away from adventuring to sell. Or, the person would have to purchase multiple accounts. However, it's nearly impossible to monopolize the market at that point as someone would have to play 24/7 and hope that there was only one zone that items were sold in.
And, it's a stretch to say you don't want to spend 2-5 hours a day to sell. No one who disliked selling did that in EQ. At best, they might collect 15 items or so to bring to the EC, and spend 4 hours trying to auction there wares once a month, definitely not every day. You'd be lucky to get a couple drops worth selling in a day. And, typically even then, if someone is impatient, they could sell low to off-load their goods quickly and get back to adventuring in much less than 4 hours.
The argument that there's plenty of things that people probably don't want to spend their time on is exactly what has swung the pendulum to extreme convenience in MMORPGs versus a virtual world. If you want an EQ experience, time has to be invested. IF someone can play 24 hours a day versus your 2-4. They should be rewarded more. There's no reason that me playing 2 hours should be able to obtain the rewards at an equal pace as someone that played 24 hours. Obviously this assumes we're equal skill levels, etc.
It's just a matter of changing expectations. One gameplay session every couple weeks or a month might be more tedious, and you might level slower than you wanted. However, that's not a bad thing. I've repeated it ad naseum - gameplay can't always be "fun" 100%. It can't always be exactly the style of gameplay you want. You need the boring, tedius, monotonous, hard, painful, frustrating to better appreciate the highs. This isn't nostalgia glasses, as my play time will be more limited, it's just not wanting to have Terminus cater to me, but, rather it exist and I find a way to "make it work."
With that said, I do believe there can be a happy medium, which is why I had tried to brainstorm some ideas previously, but the compromise shouldn't be at the expense of gameplay for convenience.
Highlighted the part that made me chuckle. If someone can play 24 hours a day versus my 2, then I guarantee you that I am being rewarded more in life than they are. :P
Raidan said: @Anistosoles Substitute 12 hrs into the 24 or 8 or 4. I was using 24 to use the extreme as a point. Basically, all things else being equal, a person who invests more time should earn rewards more quickly.
Yep, and though its been joked about, some people should realize that people who spend less time playing have their reward. You know, in real life. Not that Pantheon should be designed to reward only those who play extreme amounts, but it should still be available for those who can.
Its very likely I won't be able to play Pantheon hardcore. Not withstanding, I still want a game like EQ that rewards that kind of commitment. It was that quality that made it feel worth playing - at least, to me.
Dullahan said:Raidan said: @Anistosoles Substitute 12 hrs into the 24 or 8 or 4. I was using 24 to use the extreme as a point. Basically, all things else being equal, a person who invests more time should earn rewards more quickly.Yep, and though its been joked about, some people should realize that people who spend less time playing have their reward. You know, in real life. Not that Pantheon should be designed to reward only those who play extreme amounts, but it should still be available for those who can.
Its very likely I won't be able to play Pantheon hardcore. Not withstanding, I still want a game like EQ that rewards that kind of commitment. It was that quality that made it feel worth playing - at least, to me.
Without even going into real life, a perspective that often goes neglected is that they are not rewarded less than those who play more. They are generally rewarded the same (generally speaking, situational differences apply) for the same period of time. The player who plays 2 hrs is rewarded equivalently for that 2 hrs as the player who plays 8 hours is for 2 hours of play (2 hours is 2 hours). It would be strange to expect rewards equivalent to 6 hours in a 2 hour time frame yet some people seem to expect this. Unrelated to the auction house topic, just general reflection the idea of more play time versus less.
disposalist said:NoobieDoo said:Krixus said:There are several very positive reasons to not have an automated auction house and seemingly only one reason TO have one: convenience.I'm seeing this as well. I don't think I've seen any other arguments for having one. And whenever a feature is wanted SOLELY on convenience I think we have to discard that. I'm all for convenience but it has to be larger than that.
Oh come on you've seen lots of reasons for having one, you just disagree with them or feel there is a negative aspect that renders them undesirable.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but sometimes not having something is purely an INconvenience and there is no good reason to not have it except to avoid development effort. Sure, pure convenience is pointless, but needless inconvenience is also to be avoided.
Understood, NoobieDoo - I shouldn't have put words in your mouth, sorry. Very annoying - I know I hate that.
I guess I'm just convinced there can be something other than "leave it up to players" in a modern game - I did make a reasonably detailed suggestion earlier with taxes and charges on a regulated commodity vendor - anyway no need to rehash that.
I think most aspects of Pantheon are going to come down to people's opinions on how rigidly original EQ/VG should be stuck to. How sandboxey Pants should be. The devs must be have a hell of a time (and a wonderful time too, though, hehe).
Until they decide though, I do like to discuss and don't like to be told I'm simply dead "wrong". I doubt there are many simple black or white issues in the forum. I guess when we disagree it might be best to move on or try to seek explaination of parts that are interesting unless you think you truly can help someone see something they might have missed - there's little point in just picking up people on points of argument or logic or whatever - I'm sorry, I did do that there.
I am a casual player anymore, was never a hardcore player at anytime, but my play time is even less now than 10-15 years ago.
So I am one of those that would not like wasting my play time trying to sell things. But I also DO NOT want a fully automated AH.
Now I would not be apposed to some sort of billboard system, local listing, maybe even a "consignment fee" merchant to sell your goods for you, but only while you are online. When you log of your items are returned to your inventory, and your consignment fee is gone.
Or if there was a system in-place to have PC merchants, who could charge a fee to stand in their stall and sell your goods for a % of the sale. But this would require them access to what the item is, it's stats, etc, but not truly the item itself, there would have to be a background transfer system, or a system holding area (Think paypal), that handles the actualy transfer to ensure all parties get what they are promised. This would provide another gmeplay perspective for those that enjoy this sort of thing.
Fully against the AH as it's been used in MMO's over the years. Same with the Bazaar of old. I'd be one of those nut jobs that enjoys sifting through walls of text in /auction searching for gear.
I do have one request. For the love of god, can the devs have a "neutral" city or zone in which all races/classes/religions have access to banks and vendors? My only gripe with the EC tunnel (Or in the case of my server, Povar, Gfay), is that it was a pain in the ass having to run to freeport or find a way through Kelethin as an evil race just to reach the bank.
-Tralyan
I wouldn't say I have a strong opinion on the whole AH argument. I can see both sides of the argument. Spending limited time spamming a chat channel to sell your wares may not be an ideal use of time for many people. I think I probably agree more that in general a worldwide AH does sort of ruin the game economy and I really did love the community atmosphere that I experienced in the EC tunnel back in the day. I even enjoyed the later iteration of the Bazaar.
I think a hybrid type system would probably work best. Let players congregate somewhere and sell openly a la the EC tunnel but also have bulletin boards in every city (not linked). This would still encourage the in-person activity of selling but also give those who don't want to spend the time an avenue to just post their wares for sale somewhere and get contacted by interested parties. You could even include a Bazaar type feature for AFK selling in each city or in certain areas (maybe major cities only).
Giving more options would be great because it supports multiple playstyles and it would also address many of the issues people hate about an AH (primarily no concentration of items in an easy to access place).
*edit*
spellings
disposalist said:Understood, NoobieDoo - I shouldn't have put words in your mouth, sorry. Very annoying - I know I hate that.
I guess I'm just convinced there can be something other than "leave it up to players" in a modern game - I did make a reasonably detailed suggestion earlier with taxes and charges on a regulated commodity vendor - anyway no need to rehash that.