Sorry if I gave the impression that I considered all others were not aware of MMO market forces. I am aware that most people are exposed to some of MMOs market forces, few imagine will have been troubled to investigate the underlying principles that determine how they react over time etc.
The EC tunnel, and indeed the implementation that EQ used for the AH, can be considered 'local markets' since players need to travel *to* the market to buy/sell. Compare this to EQ2 or WoW where you can browse the market from any place you choose and have your items delivered to your doorstep. *That* is a single global market since all prices must compete vs all others.
I actually think a (suitably implemented) AH-type structure *could* be made to work. As with all things, though, the devil is in the detail!
Mod Edit: Removed all of the white space stretching the post out.
Evoras said:The EC tunnel, and indeed the implementation that EQ used for the AH, can be considered 'local markets' since players need to travel *to* the market to buy/sell. Compare this to EQ2 or WoW where you can browse the market from any place you choose and have your items delivered to your doorstep. *That* is a single global market since all prices must compete vs all others.
I actually think a (suitably implemented) AH-type structure *could* be made to work. As with all things, though, the devil is in the detail!
I see. I obviously read that wrong and thought you meant you thought people would set up seperate markets in the various major cities instead of grouping together in a single location. If there's a seperate zone like the bazaar (not necessarily including player "vendors") it would be nice if it's not too tough to get to depending on where you are in the world. If VR allows a fast travel system between a few major cities then it can be tied into that. If not, hopefully there will be a player port location close to the city we use.
edit: edit your post please :) it looks like you posted close to when the forums went down or something with all those extra returns. Or a demon animal cat got on your keyboard.
That could work, but I was thinking more along the lines of players figuring the cost to sell versus overall profit. Say I want to sell 10 tree limbs for 1000 gold at a lower traveled ah, the cost to sell my gold would cost me 10% of my profit. So I profit 9k I can eat that loss. An item worth 200k will cost 20k to sell, a bit harder to swallow and one worth a million will cost 100k to sell, something me personally I would rather keep. And that would be at a lower traveled ah meaning it may take longer to sell or may not sell at all. Meanwhile higher traveled ah's may charge as much as 20% of your profit.
Another way this system can be used is using a blind ah system, where the seller list their product for sale at a minimum price they will accept(unknown to buyers), and buyers have to bid on the item. The seller would be charged a percentage of their minimum selling price and take the gamble, if they set their price too low they could loose out majorly.
Alic said: Honestly all they really need IMO is a simple way to link all the stuff u want to sell in a auction type channel that u can join and leave at your discretion. And I mean a simpler way than in eq, like put them in a second bag that u click and bang linked into the auction channel.
I don't want anything automated, semi-automated, dumbed-down or made simpler. I am an extreme traditionalist and I see every small step of progress as a threat towards MOBA's
Perhaps it is too late in development, but would a class perhaps called a Merchant be something that could be effective? A PC of any race that wishes to focus on the economy of the game rather than the adventuring? Give them bonuses to pricing so that selling to them is better than selling to an npc vendor, and then allowing them to sell to that same npc vendor for a slight profit. They would be required to actually be on their character and interact with people while their shop is open, but certain things could be buy it now. Make their inventory searchable to everyone on a board, as well as show if they are online at the time. People that want to haggle better prices can do so, while those who want to dump their stacks of bat wings could do so in a somewhat automated manner. You would not be required to use a merchant if you didn't want to, you could still /auc your item and sell it yourself. Merchants could perhaps have an adventuring level locked at 1, but are able to level up in their ability to sell to NPC vendors etc.
Merchants could also put out buy orders on their boards requesting certain items and what they will pay for them, which could influence where groups would go or what content soloers would concentrate on. They could establish relationships with those that like to farm ingredients and are good customers. Obviously protections and rules would have to be in place to make something like this work, like every system. Thanks for reading :).
Alic said: Honestly all they really need IMO is a simple way to link all the stuff u want to sell in a auction type channel that u can join and leave at your discretion. And I mean a simpler way than in eq, like put them in a second bag that u click and bang linked into the auction channel.
While I was happy to get away from the method, I remember being in the Faymart and people would say things like "WTS FBSS, CoF, Lammy, and more." Then you'd go to them and they'd put backpacks in trade for you to click through. I take it that's similar to what you mean, except that it's via linking that bag in chat?
The system seemed to work out fine when there weren't tons of players selling stuff, but as the game became more popular and as more items were around to sell it became unreasonable to search a bunch of peoples' bags while others are wanting to at the same time. I know your chat method wouldn't have the same downside of only a single player looking at once, but it's still a lot to sort through while a bunch of people are posting in chat.
Another one of the issues I have with not having an AH/bazaar, it's a lot harder to show off all the stuff you have to sell. You really can't just say "WTS various trade supplies pst/look in my bag" and expect much of a reply since there will be many different trade supplies. A "WTS smithing ingredients" could be useful, but what if you have a couple small count of tailoring stuff too? Most people won't want to spend a bunch of time searching the bag(s) of each person whereas with a bazaar/AH system you can search for any specific item very easily.
Here are my 2c on the issue.
If we're looking for an alternative to the AH, but want/need something more than EC tunnel style trading, I support the regional billboard idea as a great compromise.
In its simplest form, you would post what you have for sale on the regional billboard. Players would have to message you directly to haggle price and set up a trade location and meeting time. Trade occurs face to face. Ability to send in-game mail message if the person is offline to express your interest. There may or may not be a fee for posting on the billboard - im good either way on this. There would be no global billboard or global billboard search. Ability to sort regional billboards would seem to make sense. User selected posting time up to max time limit, after which the post is removed. When an item is listed, it is flagged in your inventory as a billboard item. When ownership of item changes, seller is presented option to remove billboard post, relist, etc.
This keeps the "barter & haggle" trade style of the EC tunnel days, keeps economies unique to each region, and would be fairly simple in terms of dev hours to program and maintain the billboards.
Dekaden said:When ownership of item changes, seller is presented option to remove billboard post, relist, etc.
It might be better to have an automated system for this to prevent someone forgetting to take something down or something similar. If the item is marked like you said (I like that concept btw) the servers can automatically remove the posting while it's updating the DB anyway for each character's inventory. Overall it still gives the main offline benefit of the seller not needing to be online for someone to see the item for sale.
The only side-note I'll make is that regional stuff probably won't happen. Regional stuff won't happen in my experiance because players want to buy/sell in the same area to maximize sales and find items easier. The EC Tunnel is a perfect example. It wasn't exactly "evil" race friendly in terms of close by cities and certainly not in the middle of the map, but enough people started gathering there that it became the main trading spot.
Evoras said:Sorry if I gave the impression that I considered all others were not aware of MMO market forces. I am aware that most people are exposed to some of MMOs market forces, few imagine will have been troubled to investigate the underlying principles that determine how they react over time etc.
The EC tunnel, and indeed the implementation that EQ used for the AH, can be considered 'local markets' since players need to travel *to* the market to buy/sell. Compare this to EQ2 or WoW where you can browse the market from any place you choose and have your items delivered to your doorstep. *That* is a single global market since all prices must compete vs all others.
I actually think a (suitably implemented) AH-type structure *could* be made to work. As with all things, though, the devil is in the detail!
Mod Edit: Removed all of the white space stretching the post out.
Do you realize that hundreds if not thousands of people viewing these forums and even replying, used to work, are working, or will be working in the game industry and are full cognizant of game mechanics. In my small studio alone there are two previous Vanguard designers that I know are following Pantheon's progress.
tanwedar said:Alic said: Honestly all they really need IMO is a simple way to link all the stuff u want to sell in a auction type channel that u can join and leave at your discretion. And I mean a simpler way than in eq, like put them in a second bag that u click and bang linked into the auction channel.While I was happy to get away from the method, I remember being in the Faymart and people would say things like "WTS FBSS, CoF, Lammy, and more." Then you'd go to them and they'd put backpacks in trade for you to click through. I take it that's similar to what you mean, except that it's via linking that bag in chat?
i meant more like having to buy a type of special bag maybe a "merchant's bag" that you can place whatever items you want to sell in, it would have a clicky and when clicked it would link all the stuff in the bag without having to go through each item individually and place it in /auc.
Dekaden said:Here are my 2c on the issue.
If we're looking for an alternative to the AH, but want/need something more than EC tunnel style trading, I support the regional billboard idea as a great compromise.
In its simplest form, you would post what you have for sale on the regional billboard. Players would have to message you directly to haggle price and set up a trade location and meeting time. Trade occurs face to face. Ability to send in-game mail message if the person is offline to express your interest. There may or may not be a fee for posting on the billboard - im good either way on this. There would be no global billboard or global billboard search. Ability to sort regional billboards would seem to make sense. User selected posting time up to max time limit, after which the post is removed. When an item is listed, it is flagged in your inventory as a billboard item. When ownership of item changes, seller is presented option to remove billboard post, relist, etc.
This keeps the "barter & haggle" trade style of the EC tunnel days, keeps economies unique to each region, and would be fairly simple in terms of dev hours to program and maintain the billboards.
I do like this idea best it keeps you from having to sit stationary for hours on end spamming chat.
ome of the first people to comment said a billboard. Yeah, the person selling has to get documentation that the item is for sale and where to find it or something. Then when people walk up and check it out, bam they know where to go. I know a lot of people really like whispering and blah blah. But I think mail boxes are bs, and we should use birds or something to send papers, etc. or just leave it there for the person and they have to go get it.
ActionWILDMAN said:But I think mail boxes are bs, and we should use birds or something to send papers, etc.
When I read that this morning my brain instantly pictured thousands of birds in a holding pattern over a city at 2am lol. Not saying I'm for/against, just sharing my brain's stupid thoughts.
NoobieDoo said:I want to see the auction house eradicated from Pantheon. I hope they do not plan on implementing one. There are so many good things that can come from not having this magical auction house where a player opens up a window with a vendor and from all over the world items are magically delivered right to your feet.
For one, I always just thought auction houses were silly and lazy.
But for more practical reasons. If houses are ever implemented into game this could give them much more purpose. If there is no auction house then players could build their homes and place a vendor there that could sell their wares. This would help keep areas populated that would otherwise not be very populated. Remember housing in VG? Houses NEED purpose and anything to give them purpose would be a welcome change from VG.
Even if player housing cannot contain vendors to sell their items at least NPCs around the local towns and cities could. Again this is is a great way to keep areas populated that would otherwise not stay very populate over the course of the years.
It could create a much more social environment where crafter's wares are spread by word of mouth. Having an auction house nobody has to talk about anything because all you have to do is head to the vendor and look all the crap up. Without an AH crafters and players both have to be more vocal about their goods and if implemented properly by the devs this could create a more social game. Which is what the devs are trying to do right?
IF there was no auction house in Pantheon then the unique recipe idea could gain a lot more traction. Whether or not it is a single player who can create the item or a very small select group of people who can create it, if there is no auction house then the players seeking out these very rare items have to travel by foot across the lands to find said item. Now it creates a much more involved atmosphere where the crafter has to spread his rare items by word of mouth and the players seeking out said items have to retrieve these items through their journeys. Imagine being in a group and hearing from some random member who is from the North talk about a guy who just learned this unique recipe and can create one of the most strongest shields in the game. If you are a tank in need of one of the strongest shields in the game you may have just stumbled upon a little adventure for yourself, especially if there is no instant fast travel and you actually have to journey there by foot and mount.
I'm sure there are many other benefits to not having an auction house but it's late and I'm pretty much burnt out right about now. And I'm sure a few of you will tell me why auction houses are so great. But I assure you they are not. They suck and are lazy and if we are to have an immersive world that prides itself on social interaction and group involvement then we need to do away with the AH. Getting rid of it will help us depend on each other a little more and help us to stay social. :D
Love this idea!
pendragen said:"I don't mind bartering and negotiating for extremely expensive items, but having to seek out someone specially for common goods can be extremely taxing"
Vendor diving solves this. And it can provide an entire path to achievement for those willing to search for items on vendors and resell them at a profit. Some people absolutely love this.
Feyshtey said:pendragen said:"I don't mind bartering and negotiating for extremely expensive items, but having to seek out someone specially for common goods can be extremely taxing"
Vendor diving solves this. And it can provide an entire path to achievement for those willing to search for items on vendors and resell them at a profit. Some people absolutely love this.
I am one of these people who love it :) I think the whole Vendor Mining experience is worthwhile and encourages players to explore and interact with the world by traveling to far off places in hopes of finding items of value to them that others have discarded. As an example; in EQ I had character perma-logged in the Bazaar selling just Batwings, Bone Chips, Mats and anything else hard to find for crafters or spell casters; I would scour the vendors in every newbie zone searching for these items on vendors. I would purchase at the selling price which often wasn’t that great of a deal, but I turned around and sold them for a huge margin (Supply & Demand) buy low and sell high was my motto… I honestly made a small fortune and equipped all my characters with gear and spells with the Plat I made from vendor diving. This to me was a game-in-a-game…
One of my best finds on a Vendor was a “Staff of Forbidden Rites” before they nerfed it and the tactic of recharging it for obscene money. I figure some guy in a guild was recharging his and either forgot about it or got disconnected and had issues getting it back?!?!? Whatever the case was I ended up buying it off of the vendor and made a huge profit by selling it to a Monk from a high-end guild on my server.
Rint
Many of these topics and posts are almost identical to the Vanguard ones. I followed that game for years before release and the transition of topics and replies are so similar it's scary. Considering this topic, the auction house, segregation by areas (zones) won out; however, quickly after release many people were demanding it change to your standard global auction.
I would prefer having your typical selling point (be it npc vendors, housing-type, auction board, etc.) available in each main city, and can only purchase directly (something being sold in city A cannont be bought in city B).
As for auction chat I would prefer that to be zone-wide only. Let the community determine where the "hot-spots" will be to go shopping from other players. I have always been a diehard crafter. It sounds like these limitations makes it harder but is quite the opposite. Without these limits, crafting becomes strictly a money sink and time sink.
Side note: Kilsen, Vanguard had an amazing community (I dare say better than this one ;-p) until about 2-4 months prior to launch. Then it got ugly. Nasty. I'm not refering to financing issues - just game design opinions. Luckily I had early access so I was busy playing the game... err testing the game so I did not bother with the forums. If you read Sigil's old forums you will be ready for these forums in advance.
Concerning global trade vs. personal interaction.
I agree with the many posters that personal interaction is key to a social based mmo. However, modern convenience should not be overlooked for the sake of forcing interaction; interaction should arise fluidly from the game environment not be artificially imposed.
A time-variable virtual mail system to facilitate a semi-global trade board.
I have no problem with a global trading system so long as it comes with a risk vs. reward system. To wit, I shall outline an imaginary ingame mail system that I feel would satisfy such a dynamic.
Mail. Real mail, with real ingame postal carriers and stage coaches. Combine this with a local, and out-of-town, market board. The out-of-town market board would be updated only when a mail coach from the corresponding city arrives. This gives an artificial delay such that local sales of discount goods are likely to be purchased locally before the posting ever is seen in another city. Thus allowing for local economic dynamics where traveling across the continent may allow me to sell at a higher, or buy at a lower, price.
Mail would necessarily be read at a postal office with the initial reply to a sell or buy request being required by mail before names could be exchanged and /tells sent. The mail company, much like an East India Trading Co., would use their (NPC) network to tithe sales for their own profit.
Idealy a player would wish to cut out the middleman, if a player was online they could travel to a locality and trade face to face, however, for the more convenience oriented, the mail company could deliver.
The Risk.
NPC corporate mail caravans would be player engageable. The corporation would certainly offer different levels of "protection" for caravans... for a price. A simple caravan containing text only mail might seem an easy target, but the rewards would be simply to view other players dirty laundry. A well guarded item caravan could be a raid level encounter, with the reward the possibility of intercepting valuable trade items.
However, one could not easily get away with offending a multinational corporation. Attacking a mail caravan would guarantee an instant KoS rep change to that region's government. Further attacks could result in actively being sought out by the authorities, more still a bounty from NPC assassins, at worse case there could even be an open bounty available to players themselves for the outlaw's head.
Mitigating Factors.
The corporation would of course be willing to sell anyone using their services insurance, for a modest fee, for the transference of valuable items. For the company transferring its own money in chests, or items it has bought locally and determined to sell elsewhere for a profit, it could hire PC guards for it's caravan, creating a minigame of NPC attacks in and of itself.
Result.
This would allow for offline trading, with a risk, for those unable or unwilling to spend hours in a zone looking for a good deal. Yet the time consuming nature of waiting for NPCs to travel across the world to make initial, or offline, trades would ensure those seeking quick, risk free, or economically manipulative trades would gravitate to a real time hawking zone.
This would satisfy the desire of low-time investment players for an ability to set up trades without cutting into PvE playtime, but keeping those wishing for a more market like experience the ability to have such an environment.
Conclusion.
Obviously, there are massive holes in this example, much unexplained, and perhaps unnecessarily complex. However, the core idea persists: allow offline trading for a convenience risk and price, encourage social trading not by artificial means, but by a natural extension of game mechanics and storyline.
It's been awhile, so forgive me if my memories are incorrect.
But wasn't the original introduction of the Bazaar in EQ1 pretty basic?
1) You had to be in the zone to browse the listings? Kind of the billboard theme thing here.
2) you had to find the seller and pruchase it from them, although they did not have to personally be there, just online.
Now, that, concept is not all that bad with the exception of "non-present" sellers. The otehr downside to the bazaar I beleive was just the number of people in a single place killed most of our machines back then, not sure that would really be as much of a problem these days.
Taking that basic idea, and implementing it in major cities (rather than a central world zone IE: the Nexus), is what many are basically asking for correct.
A location within each city specifically setup for players to travel to, to do trades, with a few features to simplify finding items(like the billboard or a just a listing) you want rather than scanning /shouts or /auction channels. Once you find your item, you conteact the seller and arrange the deal and purchase.
As much as I loved the EC tunnel over what the bazaar became, I truly hated having to read through line after line of /shout hoping an item I wanted or needed would get /shouted, and then having to send a tell to someone with name like 'PurpleGaterAydePumperNickle' :) (I swear some people chose names just to keep people from sending them tells.)
Listing of items is one place I think improvement would be beneficial to both buyers and sellers, but still kep the markets local, and interaction for the deal a must.
