I dont like AH but i like how eq did Baz some what. It helps the people who dont have time to play to put up a stall and sell there stuff. Well i am use to EC tunnels from p99 so i dont mind haveing to sell stuff. I know the people who gets 3-4hrs play time a day if they are lucky dont want to sit in a zone /auc there stuff.
NoobieDoo said:Trading goods and bartering is fundamentally THE MOST social activity you can do in an MMORPG and the MMOs of today have simply removed it. Pantheon is supposed to be bringing back that 'social' feeling that has been lost in MMOs and bartering is a good area to start at.
It still boggles my mind every time someone talks about sales being social. Yes, there is talking. But most of the time the talking goes as far as finding where the person is and rarely further than some bartering. If I walk in to a store and go buy something from a person at a register, I don't consider to have had social time with that person or at that location.
I've made good friends in games that in a couple cases turned into us becoming close enough that we would even meet up somewhere for a week or weekend. Usually it was a location in the EST part of the US, but we had a guy that would fly over from the west coast and it took the rest of us 1-8hrs to drive to a location because we would rent a cabin or similar. Hell, one time a guy in Texas took grey hound busses from TX to Tenn, took a day or two but he wanted to show up that bad. We didn't get to know each other well because of selling items, we spent hours grouping and talking while playing together. So if trading is the most social activity someone is doing in an MMO they need to learn to talk more in groups and/or their guild.
NoobieDoo said:It is 2016, we don't have to force players to sit on their butts and spam the trade window all day but we also shouldn't force the players who DO want to sit on their butts, barter all day, and socialize to not be able to do it either.
There IS a middle ground that can be found here and with today's technology it shouldn't be hard to find. I really hope the devs can put the co-signment shop idea together and get it to run well.
First part is damn well said. I have very mixed feelings, mostly skeptical about how social it would end up being vs just business, on the consignment idea, but it's trying for a middle ground which is good. Consignment thread for those who haven't read it.
tanwedar said:NoobieDoo said:Trading goods and bartering is fundamentally THE MOST social activity you can do in an MMORPG and the MMOs of today have simply removed it. Pantheon is supposed to be bringing back that 'social' feeling that has been lost in MMOs and bartering is a good area to start at.
It still boggles my mind every time someone talks about sales being social. Yes, there is talking. But most of the time the talking goes as far as finding where the person is and rarely further than some bartering. If I walk in to a store and go buy something from a person at a register, I don't consider to have had social time with that person or at that location.
I've made good friends in games that in a couple cases turned into us becoming close enough that we would even meet up somewhere for a week or weekend. Usually it was a location in the EST part of the US, but we had a guy that would fly over from the west coast and it took the rest of us 1-8hrs to drive to a location because we would rent a cabin or similar. Hell, one time a guy in Texas took grey hound busses from TX to Tenn, took a day or two but he wanted to show up that bad. We didn't get to know each other well because of selling items, we spent hours grouping and talking while playing together. So if trading is the most social activity someone is doing in an MMO they need to learn to talk more in groups and/or their guild.
NoobieDoo said:You misunderstood me. I didn't say it's the most social thing you can do. It's the activity of selling items which is more social than any other activity you can do in an MMO. There's a difference. Selling items requires two people to communicate with each other. Unless of course you automate it. The reason the activity of bartering is more social than the activity of grouping is because you can form a group together and complete your task without ever saying a word. You can't trade between two people successfully without saying a word...unless you automate it.
Unless the game gets to a point where you do things like WoW instances, it's highly unlikely that there won't be talking in groups. Even if a player isn't talking at all after a while everyone usually ends up talking at some point because multiple topics are brought up when you stick 6 people together for a period of time. As I mentioned in my post, simply telling a person you want to buy their item and asking where to meet isn't exactly talking. As you wrote it's saying words. If you go through a drive-thru to get food do you feel like you did a social activity simply because each person used words and exchanged money/items? So sure you're "saying a word", but if all you're doing is a business transaction then it may as well be automated.
Edit... to comment on your edit hah: The social aspect of the EC Tunnel had nothing to do with trading except that it gave a faction neutral location for people to congregate at. If you have a bunch of players all wanting to hang out in the same area then it doesn't matter if trade happens, that social aspect will still happen. The Nexus in Luclin is a great example.
tanwedar said:NoobieDoo said:You misunderstood me. I didn't say it's the most social thing you can do. It's the activity of selling items which is more social than any other activity you can do in an MMO. There's a difference. Selling items requires two people to communicate with each other. Unless of course you automate it. The reason the activity of bartering is more social than the activity of grouping is because you can form a group together and complete your task without ever saying a word. You can't trade between two people successfully without saying a word...unless you automate it.
Unless the game gets to a point where you do things like WoW instances, it's highly unlikely that there won't be talking in groups. Even if a player isn't talking at all after a while everyone usually ends up talking at some point because multiple topics are brought up when you stick 6 people together for a period of time. As I mentioned in my post, simply telling a person you want to buy their item and asking where to meet isn't exactly talking. As you wrote it's saying words. If you go through a drive-thru to get food do you feel like you did a social activity simply because each person used words and exchanged money/items? So sure you're "saying a word", but if all you're doing is a business transaction then it may as well be automated.
Edit... to comment on your edit hah: The social aspect of the EC Tunnel had nothing to do with trading except that it gave a faction neutral location for people to congregate at. If you have a bunch of players all wanting to hang out in the same area then it doesn't matter if trade happens, that social aspect will still happen. The Nexus in Luclin is a great example.
Feyshtey said:Cromulent said:But that is how things work in the real world. People just search on Google and find the lowest price for the item that they want and will normally go for the best deal. This is why so many physical bricks and mortor shops are closing because they can't compete with online prices.
It sounds like you are disappointed you wouldn't be able to sell items for ridiculous prices any more to people who don't know any better.
No, thats not really how it works. There's no global search function that shows you a list of everyone selling that 50" Panasonic TV so that you can pick the cheapest one. You can go to any number of sellers' websites and see what the prices are, and you can eventually have a high degree of confidence that you're not getting screwed. But there's no comparison system that's going to ensure that for you without your investment of time.
Thanks for trying to attribute greed to me in order to dismiss my opinion. But I rarely used the bazaar. I found it to be rather annoying. I also rarely sat in EC tunnel to buy, or to sell. As I said in an earlier post, I used /auc as I entered new areas and generally got lower than average prices for those goods I sold. Sometimes higher, but generally lower. Maximum profit was not a consideration.
Sounds like you've never used Google Shopping which does exactly what you said. It takes the prices from loads of different sources and shows you the best deals on specific items. There are also loads of price comparison websites out there for all sorts of deals. Plus there are websites dedicated to telling you which retailers currently have a sale on. The web is full of such websites for all sorts of different products. Frankly I'm shocked you've never used any of them. They are a great way to save some extra cash. You can very much search for a 50" Panasonic TV and see who the cheapest retailer is for that specific item and you've been able to do this for at least 5 years. Maybe it is different where you live but these services have been around in the UK for years and years.
The only reason I mentioned greed was because you said you didn't like the idea of people being able to see all the available prices available with one simple search. That sounded very much like you wanted to stop people from seeing if you were overcharging for a specific item. If that is not the case then I withdraw the accusation but if you read back your post which I was replying to you have to admit that is the way it sounded.
Cromulent said:Sounds like you've never used Google Shopping which does exactly what you said. It takes the prices from loads of different sources and shows you the best deals on specific items. There are also loads of price comparison websites out there for all sorts of deals. Plus there are websites dedicated to telling you which retailers currently have a sale on. The web is full of such websites for all sorts of different products. Frankly I'm shocked you've never used any of them. They are a great way to save some extra cash. You can very much search for a 50" Panasonic TV and see who the cheapest retailer is for that specific item and you've been able to do this for at least 5 years. Maybe it is different where you live but these services have been around in the UK for years and years.
The only reason I mentioned greed was because you said you didn't like the idea of people being able to see all the available prices available with one simple search. That sounded very much like you wanted to stop people from seeing if you were overcharging for a specific item. If that is not the case then I withdraw the accusation but if you read back your post which I was replying to you have to admit that is the way it sounded.
I do use google shopping. In fact, I tested the thoery with google shopping before hitting submit. I even tried to put in the exact model number of a particular panasonic 50" TV, tried to reduce the results using the search criteria by model, size, type, etc. The more I tried to narrow it down to one exact product, the more likely it was I got about 5-10 results, and 20% were not for the actual product but instead things like the remote control for that product. And I'm pretty sure there are a couple more than 10 places online that sell that product...
You might get a vague notion of value. You might get some decent places to consider buying from. You do NOT get anything remotely close to a universal sellers list or anything close to assurance that you were provided the lowest possible prices. After narrowing down results as I described it didnt even return NewEgg, BestBuy, Walmart, etc. And even if it had it'd give no consideration in the results displayed for which sellers were physciually local, which you would have to wait for shipping from, or how much any shipping required might cost. So again, it would not be anything more than a guess toward a valid indication of the best value your your dollars.
NoobieDoo said: It's the activity of selling items which is more social than any other activity you can do in an MMO. There's a difference. Selling items requires two people to communicate with each other...The reason the activity of bartering is more social than the activity of grouping is because you can form a group together and complete your task without ever saying a word. You can't trade between two people successfully without saying a word...
Do you seriously believe that?
philo said:NoobieDoo said: It's the activity of selling items which is more social than any other activity you can do in an MMO. There's a difference. Selling items requires two people to communicate with each other...The reason the activity of bartering is more social than the activity of grouping is because you can form a group together and complete your task without ever saying a word. You can't trade between two people successfully without saying a word...Do you seriously believe that?
It's very possible it works both ways. A good way to avoid getting blasted is to realize polarization causes problems because blanket statements are almost always wrong.
I've been in groups where nobody said a peep, I've also had a trade where nothing was said either. (IE: I responded to the macro they made selling X for X gold, and I opened up trade with them threw the gold in, they assumed I wanted what they were selling and tossed it in, and trade completed. Not even a thank you between us ...wierd huh?)
Both these situations can happen with some regularity. Sometimes you get the quirky social butterfly and other times you got a bunch of zombies.
*shrugs*
Pantheon is focused on creating an environment where social interaction happens more often than in these new-aged MMORPG's.
-Todd
While I don't think the communication during bartering to the best example of socializing, I still agree with what Noobie is saying. It does promote interaction, and that is largely what is missing from the mmorpg today.
More important than the purely social aspect of trade, I think the traditional form needs to be maintained for the commerce forms of gameplay. Commerce and trade is a big part of real life, and should be a big part of a virtual world. Those who work the hardest to advertise and make their goods available are rewarded, and so should they be in a simulated world.
As I've said before, players will shy away from heavy taxes on convenience. I have no problem with people using trade merchants, consignment vendors or even an auction because they spent money to do so. Those who wish to trade the old fashioned way will still have the benefit of greater player interaction and higher profit margins.
Dullahan said:As I've said before, players will shy away from heavy taxes on convenience. I have no problem with people using trade merchants, consignment vendors or even an auction because they spent money to do so. Those who wish to trade the old fashioned way will still have the benefit of greater player interaction and higher profit margins.
I like how you make sure to put in that if both methods exist there should be a fee for the automated method. I'm pro-gold sinks and as you said it does reward players putting in time, but probably not to an unfair margin.
If they put a bazaar style system in, how do you view players going AFK or using a bot, being compared to trading merchants/AH/etc? Unless the game looks for timeouts there would be no real way to add a fee to essentially a logged in version of an "offline trader". Just hoping for an opinion not trying to put you on the spot or argue against your post.
PS it would make me incredibly happy if your name is related to The Devil is a Part-Timer and not simply a mythical reference.
Lol, purely mythical reference.
I think the more accessible your wares become (higher convenience), the higher the tax. Self vendor (eq bazaar), 10% tax for space in city. Player vendor, 15% for space and vendor wage. Consignment would be 25% for service rendered.
I discussed this earlier in the thread and people were really upset with that kind of tax rate, but I believe its not only necessary for promoting trade gameplay and player interaction, but also for realism and simulating an economy.
Sorry to have missed that post earlier, thare are lots of pages and text lol. I agree a standard rate makes good sense because it's simple and it worked fine in other MMOs without mass protest. As for what percentages are fair, not ours to worry about at this point!
Devil is a Part-Timer reference
I'm not a big fan of having a UI element that allows you to see and compare prices between all current merchants, even if it's limited to the current zone you're shopping in. I would rather see some small, more thematic elements introduced to help people locate the items they're looking for. I like the idea of having areas in each of the starting cities that resemble the original EQ bazaar (as others have said above: only the original format, not the revamp). Allowing people to customize their vendor stalls a little with placards that say things like 'Food and Drink' or 'Bows and Arrows' would allow folks to draw in customers by giving a general idea of what they're selling. A full blown sign in front of the stall could even list the first few items in their sales inventory along with their asking prices.
Innovation is the way...
... provide the tools and allow the players to innovate [Which is precisely who EC tunnel came about]
1. players can sell (formally) anywhere if they have a rug (small capacity), hand-cart (medium cap) or donkey-cart (large cap) ... can (possibly) even have an NPC vendor in tow (killable). Throwing down rug allows AFK vendoring (with pre-set prices) for a small number of items/slots. same for carts, but NPC can stay there and could even allow haggling (AI allows bids between values). NPCs could even be told to allow buying of (type of) items for (set % of last market set of prices). Possibly you could sell other PCs stuff for them (for a comission)
2. players can sell in Town 'market areas' to get certain benefits.
3. players can 'offer services' while working (having paid the NPC/Guild/player owner) at a trade station in town.
4. NPC vendors have limited cash to buy gear (particularly in villages) and limited stocks to sell (ammount to depend on size of manufacturing/availabalility). In practice NPCs will NOT pay for magic items etc since they cannot verify their authenticity. Nor could they afford it. NPC resellers, though, *might* buy a type of locally available stuff (wolf pelts) which they then sell ojn to town at a margin.
SO... these are the tools and allow players to buy/sell anywhere, possibly with benefits in some areas, less in others..... let the players organically do the rest!
Viva EC tunnel !!
Sorry if this was a bit long.
Feyshtey said:Cromulent said:Sounds like you've never used Google Shopping which does exactly what you said. It takes the prices from loads of different sources and shows you the best deals on specific items. There are also loads of price comparison websites out there for all sorts of deals. Plus there are websites dedicated to telling you which retailers currently have a sale on. The web is full of such websites for all sorts of different products. Frankly I'm shocked you've never used any of them. They are a great way to save some extra cash. You can very much search for a 50" Panasonic TV and see who the cheapest retailer is for that specific item and you've been able to do this for at least 5 years. Maybe it is different where you live but these services have been around in the UK for years and years.
The only reason I mentioned greed was because you said you didn't like the idea of people being able to see all the available prices available with one simple search. That sounded very much like you wanted to stop people from seeing if you were overcharging for a specific item. If that is not the case then I withdraw the accusation but if you read back your post which I was replying to you have to admit that is the way it sounded.
I do use google shopping. In fact, I tested the thoery with google shopping before hitting submit. I even tried to put in the exact model number of a particular panasonic 50" TV, tried to reduce the results using the search criteria by model, size, type, etc. The more I tried to narrow it down to one exact product, the more likely it was I got about 5-10 results, and 20% were not for the actual product but instead things like the remote control for that product. And I'm pretty sure there are a couple more than 10 places online that sell that product...
You might get a vague notion of value. You might get some decent places to consider buying from. You do NOT get anything remotely close to a universal sellers list or anything close to assurance that you were provided the lowest possible prices. After narrowing down results as I described it didnt even return NewEgg, BestBuy, Walmart, etc. And even if it had it'd give no consideration in the results displayed for which sellers were physciually local, which you would have to wait for shipping from, or how much any shipping required might cost. So again, it would not be anything more than a guess toward a valid indication of the best value your your dollars.
Let's dial this back a bit. I can see how you thought my post was aggressive and rude looking back on it but that wasn't my intention. It was just the way I interpreted your post. I will say there are plently of price comparison websites in the UK though.
Anyway back to the point. I still feel having a Bazaar like system that allowed AFK selling is still the best option for this game. The people who want the game to only have EC tunnel style selling are missing the point that the developers are trying to attract people to this game who perhaps have never played EverQuest or Vanguard. I just worry that this community with its "hardcore only" mindset are going to turn off some potential new players because they do not want to compromise on how they see the game turning out. We all want this game to be a success and if that means that some quality of life features from newer MMOs makes it into the game then I won't be too disappointed. The more people playing the game the better the outlook for the game as a whole. I'm hardly a casual player and was a pretty hardcore EverQuest fan back when I played it. But times have changed. I'm hoping that this game will attract a new generation of players who are too young to have played EverQuest back in its prime.
At the end of the day having a Bazaar isn't going to reduce the number of people of grouping and it really isn't going to destroy the social aspect of the game. It will just make it slightly easier to sell your gear to people when you are away from your computer or are asleep. I just don't have the time to stand around for hours trying to sell items and I'm sure that I am not the only one.
I didnt take your post as hostile. and I hope you didnt take mine that way.
That being said ... :)
Cromulent said:The people who want the game to only have EC tunnel style selling are missing the point that the developers are trying to attract people to this game who perhaps have never played EverQuest or Vanguard.
This is still a false equivalency. Having no AH/Bazaar does not require anyone to sit in the EC tunnel. You can still have a high degree of success both buying and selling by taking a minimum effort of hitting a WTB/WTS auction channel macro as you enter zones while traveling. It's served me well in every game i've played save WoW where apparently they design the game to preclude people interacting on a personal level. There are you are simply forced to use the AH to buy or sell anything for a myriad of reasons, many admitedly not directly related to the AH at all.
Regardless of that, in the absence of an AH or Bazaar I would put solid money on the fact that there will be a site like this one : http://ahungry.com/eqauctions
This is where someone built a log parser that scans every line of text for East Commonlands on the Project1999 Everquest server and streams it to that site. The site also allows you to search the history for items. So you can effectively go there, see who is selling an item and reach out to them at some later date to see if they still have the item. Hell, you can have it open (it updates every few minutes) and if you see an item you want pop up you can log into the game really quick and nab it. As a person that prefers there not be an AH/Bazaar, I have used it for items I'm having a hard time getting, and I've had people contact me in game to ask if I still have something I auctioned (while I was just running thru the zone, not sitting there spamming auction...) weeks later.
There will also be people who make things like this : http://wiki.project1999.com/Flowing_Black_Silk_Sash
This is the Project1999 wiki. It's wholly player made and pretty much every item in the game is reflected, with rare exceptions. Note the price tracker on the top right where players have submitted buy/sell values. It shows the history of these submissions. So you can go there and get an idea of what the items are selling for. It's not definitive but it's a pretty accurate reference.
And these player solutions to "being forced to sit in EC tunnel" don't include simple forums where throughout the history of EQ guilds and individuals regularly had their own "auction house" forum section where people could go to barter.
One of the amazing "secret sauce" factors of Everquest was the incredible and robust out-of-game communities that spawned. I have no reason to ever go to any out-of-game WoW resource because WoW spoon feeds me everything I could ever possibly need until you reach a point where you're completely capped out on levels and need to start tweaking gear/specs/etc for min/max purposes. I'll never go to a WoW guild forum for any reason. From there I'll never scan thru their other public posts to see if there's somethign interesting. I think I've visited theo official WoW forums twice? Maybe? in years of playing. (I pleed insanity for having played that long. Actually I blame my now 12 year-old son who refuses to play project1999 so my wife and I play WoW with him off and on.)
Anyway, there are two salient points here :
1) "Forced to sit in EC tunnel" is a BS argument. There are multiple ways to get around that before you consider out-of-game resources.
2) The community aspect, in and out of game that is encouraged or "forced" if you will, cannot be undersold.
Elrandir said:I'm not a big fan of having a UI element that allows you to see and compare prices between all current merchants, even if it's limited to the current zone you're shopping in. I would rather see some small, more thematic elements introduced to help people locate the items they're looking for. I like the idea of having areas in each of the starting cities that resemble the original EQ bazaar (as others have said above: only the original format, not the revamp). Allowing people to customize their vendor stalls a little with placards that say things like 'Food and Drink' or 'Bows and Arrows' would allow folks to draw in customers by giving a general idea of what they're selling. A full blown sign in front of the stall could even list the first few items in their sales inventory along with their asking prices.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a cool idea to make it similar to how a market would actually be. If there's a trading area/zone like the bazaar, regardless of having bazaar player vendors, I think being able to set up a sign in front of you, in that zone/area, is still fun. Stalls seem like a bit much, but I can stand behind signs. (get it?...sorry)
However, without the UI for searching you'd have to go around to each vendor, which while it's realistic, it's a pain at the same time especially if each player can sell lots of items at once. I'm also guessing it will be like most games where most players will have a mix of all kinds of stuff from adventuring and there will be few specialized shops making the placards less useful, but still fun. The only last point I'll make is that unless there's a quick travel method between major cities it'll hurt purchases and sales. Chances are we will still all gather in one city (most likely) making multiple areas pointless so I'd prefer a single bazaar zone regardless of what system ends up getting used.
Feyshtey said:There will also be people who make things like this : http://wiki.project1999.com/Flowing_Black_Silk_Sash
This is the Project1999 wiki. It's wholly player made and pretty much every item in the game is reflected, with rare exceptions. Note the price tracker on the top right where players have submitted buy/sell values. It shows the history of these submissions.
The biggest problem with this is what you stated, it relies on players submitting data. P1999 has quite a low population and as you can see from the FBSS link it looks like there are few vendors posting data and/or they are major players controlling sales. While that price is most likely accurate for an item traded as often as a FBSS, rarer items and items that fluxuate greatly such as trade goods can't use that but so effectively as player numbers increase.
A shortage of an ore needed for [quick] leveling will quickly raise the price. Fluxuations will definitely increase once the players rushing for max level and not TS along the way start leveling TSs. However, as soon as other players see the shortage prices and start to farm the ore the price will also rapidly lower as more ore gets back in the system. Unless most sales are uploaded quickly, a site is less valuable than simply watching trade chat and/or looking at auctioneer UI changes (whatever they go with). Also, some major sellers/updaters might not update prices if prices are dropping and they have stock. "/ooc PC FBBS" has almost always been good enough for my needs even when the AH was out. When the AH was in place and no one was selling the item you'd still usually get multiple responses and could trust asking for a PC. It's quick and requires almost zero effort from people who didn't even have to make/upload recent sells.
http://ahungry.com/eqauctions is interesting. Though last updates are 2 days ago and not all of them list prices. It also only logs a single zone, but that's far less of an issue.
Cromulent said:At the end of the day having a Bazaar isn't going to reduce the number of people of grouping and it really isn't going to destroy the social aspect of the game. It will just make it slightly easier to sell your gear to people when you are away from your computer or are asleep. I just don't have the time to stand around for hours trying to sell items and I'm sure that I am not the only one.
I can stand behind behind this. Also, say someone wanted to watch a movie (ok example?) at their house, you can still hit WTB/WTS macros and check for tells every once in a while. Pre and Post bazaar when I'd walk past my keyboard, pending carrying heavy crap/kids, I'd hit macro buttons and check for tells. That is a simple hybrid system. It's not as if VR is going to disable /whatever in a zone with an AH/bazaar. So you can sit there in an AH/baz zone pressing macros just as you would in a non-AH/baz area, .
Most people posting here realize an AH is a primary way for cheating and hacking to enter the game.
Pantheon have a small staff and if they do incorporate an AH then I am concerned it will be easily abused by bots and such.
Is that a reason to not have one? maybe not, but unless you played EQ1 you have no idea how a true organic sandboxed player market works and how it adds a tremendous aspect to the character of a game.
All modern MMO's have very sophisticated markets so you can easily spend your ingame $$ anywhere and as often as you like. Not very immerive or sandboxy, and yes just a money grab by a highly monetized game most likely. Why else would bots be buying and selling at high speed on it.
As there is expected to be full player trading ingame, we can fully expect gold farming, and thus players buying gold from gold farmers. Adding an ingame AH just increases the velocity of money in the game. (that is an economics term btw). In a truly immersive game slowing the velocity of money is desired.
zewtastic said:Most people posting here realize an AH is a primary way for cheating and hacking to enter the game.
Pantheon have a small staff and if they do incorporate an AH then I am concerned it will be easily abused by bots and such.
... we can fully expect gold farming, and thus players buying gold from gold farmers. Adding an ingame AH just increases the velocity of money in the game. (that is an economics term btw). In a truly immersive game slowing the velocity of money is desired.
Most players outside the game development bubble are often unaware of the effects game mechanics can have on the in-game economy. They often do not see the hidden effects in MMOs of things such as:
You can see that global markets and 24/7 vending etc all add to MUD-flation [MMO inflation, where too much money is available, pushing proces of good beyond market prices]. In order to fix this, MMO have to build in as many deflationary effects [removing cash from the world] as possible. Don't forget, every mob killed generates cash. All this has to go somewhere. Gold farmers take advantage of this to push the economy to breaking point quickly. In some MMOs they have destroyed the economy.
So, even if there is convenience in an AH and global markets, not to mention unlimitred fast-travel etc, this HAS to be considered in the context of the best for long-term success of the game.
Imagine some mid-level quest (or useful) piece 4 weeks into the game. The price will be fairly low since few have lots of money to buy it with... it woujld be easier to go get it by camping. Now imagine 8 months into the game with rampant MUD-flation. Mid to higher level characters have buckets of money and use it to equip their alts/guildies. Now this mid-level piece will costs a MASSIVE ammount (still affordable to the guys with cash) for a new player.
And so you have created a barrier for all starting characters. In some cases this barrier will absolutely freeze them out.
Beware...
... and so please think carefully about the unintended consequences of what you want (for the sake of convenience)!
I'm not a proponent of an AH or a Bazaar, but I disagree with the premise that mudflation freezes out new players. It's just simply not accurate.
Yes, the costs of goods does rise as the game ages and the amount of coin in the game world increases. However that has as many positive impacts to a new player as it does negative. Yes, it might cost significantly more coin to buy a level-appropriate gear upgrade, but that player is also able to get substantially more coin for the mundane trade items that they gather during normal play as well. In the earliest days of EQ you could not hope to get 10pp for a stack of spider silk, but years later that's not an unreasonable price.
Conversely, the value of newbie items is so low that selling them is often more trouble than it's worth, and it's not uncommon for them to just be given away, or to be left on corpses killed by an established player starting an alt. A new player has an ease of access to items that competition would have precluded at the game's release.
Additionally, the prices for NPC sold goods and services don't change, but the value of coin does, directly associated to the ease of access to it and quantity that exists in the gameworld. When the game was in its infancy you had to pick and choose which of the spells you would buy from vendors as you leveled up because it was so common for you to be unable to afford them all. I remember struggling to try to scrape the coin together to buy backpacks. But you can literally make dozens of pp in the first day of play today selling those same mundane items like bone chips to players with far more coin than patience, and have a full set of armor, all your spells and every slot you wish to on your character and your bank filled with bags with ease and with coin to spare.
This trend continues throughout the level curve. Anything in game that is NPC driven is more accessible the longer the game lives. Any tradeskill items that are gathered fetch much much more coin than the player ever could dream of getting as one of the game's early players.
And this is all aside from the fact that as the game ages and new expansions are released, the new dropped and crafted gear at pretty much every level increases in potency. The Polished Granite Tomahawk that was considered a fantastic upgrade in the teens or early 20s in original EQ is barely used by anyone now because it's so easy for anyone (including brand new players) to get a much better weapon at the same level. I remember struggling like crazy as a real-life friends guild to get one guy all the stuff he needed to smith all the chain and plate class guildmates fully equipped in banded armor. No stats, chainmail armor that took weeks to accomplish for everyone, and my plate-wearing paladin wore a few pieces of it into the late 30's until finishing the Armor of Ro quests that were a HUGE upgrade. (No one today would ever consider bothering with Armor of Ro because it's a PITA questline, and getting gear that is exponentially better is so trivial, even on P99.) This in turn makes conquering the same content notably easier, which speeds leveling times, which brings in coin faster, which provides a larger purse to purchase upgrades from the newest expansions, to get notably more powerful, to conquer content more quickly to... etc, etc.
Most games even deliberately build in this trivialization of early advancement specifically because they assume most of the people consuming that lower content are people replaying the game. Replayability is a key component in longevity for MMOs with a reliance on keeping existing players playing even if its just to get them leveling an alt while waiting for the next xpac. Many design elements to do that (except systems like Progeny) provide the same benefits to a brand new player as they do to an existing player's alt.
So anyway, I really think the argument that new players to an established game having it hard is a seriously flawed narative. It's like arguing that the settlers of the American west had it easy, and that traveling to the Rocky Mountains on the interstate system is so much more difficult.
it seems to me that if we need to get rid of AH because they have often been the mechanic used to exploit, then we would need to get rid of banks and trading as well. i would very much not prefer this, i would much prefer a monitorring system and complete bans for exploiters. if they had sortable transaction logs then they could see: hmm why did this level one just accumulate 50k gold in 5 minutes? oh he got it sent from his 2 years played main. or hmm he had 200 gold then traded nothing and had 400 gold then traded nothing and had 800 gold... (you have to track wealth/item dupe creation so you dont have a GTA V situation where people tip large amounts of cash and the tipped gets banned)
if you really want to stop mudflation, the best way would be set prices: you sell drop x to npc vendor for 100 gold, it then becomes available on npc vendor for 125 gold. prices never change. edit: i do not prefer this, much rather have inflation even though i wont be playing this game 50+ hours a week like i played vanguard or SWGs.
the reason more money comes into the market with AH is that everyone is making money. with AH the 4 hour player pops into town, posts items before they log get market value. without AH 4 hour player sells quickly since has to go to work makes half market value while 2 account player has second account afk spam selling it all day.
20ish %vendor commission would severely disrupt playing the market, although, i personally enjoyed playing the market at times.
I agree with Fay (first time? lol).
I started EQ (and P1999) during Kurak and didn't feel like I had a handicap. As someone stated, higher level players will buy gear which will then raise the price of it and make it harder for lower level players to get. That's going to happen regardless of what kind of system ends up in place. If there is or isn't a bazaar/ah it won't stop high level players, or those who earn money other ways, buying items for alts. When I hit 50 I'm not going to tell myself, "This money I made at max level - I'm not going to spend it on my other characters." So whether it's AH/baz or WTB/WTS (or a combo), I'm going to buy stuff. Fay also mensioned bonechips. Those and bat wings sold fairly well (in terms of low level money) since the higher levels didn't want to spend time farming them and the cost was really cheap for their pockets.
Fey also mensioned the PGT and how it became less desirable over time as higher level weapons, even in the same xpac that didn't have req/rec levels, were getting farmed. That dropped the price on items such as the PGT making them more accessable to lower levels.
Zew... Most of us played EQ before and after the bazaar was in the game. Nothing catastrophic happened after it was implemented. Gold farmers existed before and after and didn't destroy the economy to where people who didn't buy gold couldn't buy items.
Evoras,
1: You're not the only person who has ever played an MMO and seen how markets are affected.
2: Your fast transportation == no local markets idea is flawed in itself. The EC tunnel and Faymart are mensioned all over this thread. They were not market locations decided on by the devs they were locations decided by the players so that travel was not an issue. So regardless of how many market areas are in the world, players will meet in the same location as it's more effective.
3: Devs have brought up gold sinks before and plenty of players have been saying how an AH needs a charge. Some people have brought up taxes for bazaar type player vendors and across the various forums other gold sink methods as well.
4: You speak a lot about MUD-flation and no one will argue against it happening. However, I'd love to hear your ideas that make it fair to low/mid levels, but also not remove the reward higher levels get for killing, crafting, selling items, and other methods of getting money. Repairing gear based on it's rarity/ilvl (doubt they use ilvl but it's an easy example) is fair and expected if they implement item repair. However, unless you die a lot or repairs have to happen very very often, camping an area at max level for an hour will yield far more money than the repair cost from killing - unless it's a very high cost which would hurt learning raids/content. Selling drops from a camp would further make the repair not a big dent.
Even if money didn't exist in the game inflation would happen based on how much an item's value is perceived compared to another item and it would effect trades. Items increase in value to a certain point, but as more time goes on more of that item will exist and the cost will drop again it's simple supply vs demand. Players will also get those items while leveling and can sell them for the "MASSIVE" amounts you speak of if the prices don't go back down. In a game like WoW where players would destroy items to get tradeskill materials it was different since it effected how many of that item existed. If we go based on most games, the item count will keep going up.
5: Barriers that you speak of might feel like they exist in 2+ xpac, but more as a speed bump for purchases. When the game starts we won't be starting off with great gear as if we were twinked. I have a very strong feeling that if we can do it then others can too. Otherwise no MMO would have lasted long at all. Some parts actually get easier, to an extent. I remember clerics, druids, shamans, chanters sitting at the Orc Lift in gfay giving out buffs for free, though they usually got tips. Getting druid regen, thorns, and hp buff made tearing up mobs a joke. When I was a bored bard waiting for friends to get on or similar I'd usually turn on my AE regen and sit next to lower level groups just to help.
alephen said:the reason more money comes into the market with AH is that everyone is making money. with AH the 4 hour player pops into town, posts items before they log get market value. without AH 4 hour player sells quickly since has to go to work makes half market value while 2 account player has second account afk spam selling it all day.
Or the person in the second example waits until they can play again... I can't forsee why a player would rush when they know they can get much more when they get home.
tanwedar said:or the person in the second example waits until they can play again... I can't forsee why a player would rush when they know they can get much more when they get home.
some will, if the next day they havent anyone with whom to play. fact of the matter, unless it is a particularly expensive item, one would likely make more money over time adventuring then selling. i suspect the vast majority of sellers would be people watching a movie waiting for the 'tell sound.' if you don't have much time to play, you are less likely to spend it spamming. AH keeps more people in the economy. i hope that i wont be so bored as to do this for anything more than high profit/high turn-over items. i might hang out in town and BS with people, but if i am sitting there spamming chat to sell, i don't want to be that guy, i want to have that guy on ignore so i can chat.