Manouk said:Form the recent posts what I am absorbing (even thought it may not have been said), has me making associations with McDonalds and the reasoning for starting a breakfast menue. The Revenues were great for Dinner. To expand the revenues they opened for lunch. Then the thought was how do we get people in the restaurant (when it was still considered a restaurant and not a real estate company) when the restaurant is not open. Solution: Breakfast. And all other chains fell into place ( except for Wendy's?)
Look at this forums page. Essentially people are getting in the game, when the game is not open.
Why not, on this official Pantheon website (or future "official" pantheon website), have such a listing for all those auctioning or selling and where. Or would it have to be player organic like old Safehouse website for questing?.
Allahkazams charges a premium fee- Friends, Romans, Countrymen I come here not to make vague associations with a cash shop but to negate it.
The point is, it would make an avenue- maybe a standard advertising generating revenue like all websites that sell space for adds (I mean ads)-
For players to go in the game when not playing the game.
Lets face it I'm at work and can't wait to get home to play some Panth (not pants, heh) and I am in the mood for crafting, or looking for what Shields are out there. I'll go online to the website and see who is selling what and where and dream of heading to those places to buy form those merchants when I get on. If they dont have it when I get on, so be it, alot can change in those hours between work and home.
Or as some had said, if a reserve or claim can be made- but the problem I see here is timing. Then the seller would have to wait for me ot buy, instead of selling their item as soon as possible and going out on adventure.
I can see that working as an augment to an in game system, but I don't think it would be a replacement. I don't always know that I will need a particular item until the need for it arises, it would be irritating if I had to go to an external site just to find out where I can obtain said item(s) and at what price.
As for the reservation of items, I suggested that the payment be tendered at the time of the sale, this could be a percentage of the sale price as a down payment. The item(s) sold would no longer be on the market listings, and the buyer would then have a set time frame to pick up his purchase from the vendor and pay the remaining cost of the item(s). If the buyer missed the deadline for pickup, then the merchant is free to relist the item(s) for sale, and he keeps the money as well, since the buyer is in default.
Hey, Guys
I haven't read EVERY post, but I've skimmed over a bunch of them. Great ideas and wonderful conversation! :)
I think that crafters need a fluid tool to sell their goods. I think an NPC or LIMITED AH is going to be needed.
I think that an AH MUST be throttled with transport times. COSTS of shipping. A delay time for your product to be posted on the other end of the continent, etc, etc...
Personally, I'm an "immersion" player. I work a full time job. I drive a truck in fact. I don't have time to play 8 hours in a single day. I did that the first 2 or 3 years I played EQ. Not every day, but a lot of days.
BUT!!! I don't want an EASY game. I'm playing one of those now... Everquest :( EVERYWHERE in the UNIVERSE is less than 6 "zones" away. Every buff you could possible want is in a potion. And now... I can even FD as a Paladin!
I LOVE IT! I'm having FUN again! After 6 1/2 years AFK I'm actually having more fun than I did when I logged out. It's true!
But... I'll tell ya what else is true. I sometimes stop playing and just stare at the screen and watch the chat scroll past and ask myself "why do we do this?" "What's the point?"
They literally SELL AAs in the bazaar. In fact, you can buy XP in the bazaar. Not as much as if you select AA, but XP none-the-less!
And I ask you guys, WHAT'S THE POINT?
I hear all of you...
I'm a tank at heart that LOVES to save a raid or group with stuns, heals and an occasional Lay on Hands. But I also enjoy Smithing. Not TSing in general, but SMITHING. The tradeskill of lore and legend. The Elves made the weapons of fame in LotR after all! :)
When I can't get a group doing Epic adventures, I want to Smith! I want to make weapons and armor of Legend! I want to be KNOWN as a GREAT Human or Elven SMITH! One who will make you armor like you've never wore. ... Remember the armor Keith Ledger wore in the Knight movie... forget the name. The Ladysmith that made it? How awesome it was after he actually TRIED IT?? I mean like that.
Some of you may know me form my Thread about levels and making the game immersive. I see the whole game this way. i want EVERYTHING to be BELIEVABLE.
MMOs by nature are Science Fantasy, but... in any universe there are LAWS. Or there should be :)
So... I want to Smith. I want to tank and be a Heroic Knight! I want YOU GUYS to want to buy my Heroic Armor as well! To do that I need an armor shop or a network of Merchants who want to sell my Armor! :D
The Bazaar in EQ in it's current iteration is just .... EASYIFICATION 101! I don't even have to GO TO THE F******* Bazaar!!! REALLY????????????????????????
Give us LOCAL Bazaars with these unmanned NPC merchants to sell our wares. ALSO give us an EC tunnel where *I* can sell my own gear and make special deals and create CUSTOM armor sets for Uber Warriors, Paladins and Dark Knights. Oooooo Dark Knights??? /scowl
We need BALANCE! Hardcore is WONDERFUL! I love it! I also know that swimming across an ocean zone SUCKS!
So... give me WORKING BOATS/SHIPS or give me a PC hired NPC merchant to sell with. Give me an AH that has REAL WORLD mechanics. (I post something today it doesn't show up for 3 days on the other side of the world. and before you object... 3 days is a VERY SHORT WAIT! real world would be 3 months or a year!) And buyint it costs a FORTUNE and takes DAYS or WEEKS to receive my prize!
I've enjoyed this thread even though I haven't read all of it. It smacks of my concerns about never ending Levels. 500 PC levels in 5 years and limitless AH's bring a WOW-ish (or what I percieve to be WOWish gameplay) world that can be solo'd by nearly anyone... BORING. And a total waste of my time. If not WOWish.... then current EQish. And it pains me to say that. I love my EQ. Raided LAST NIGHT! LOVE this game. But I'm saddened every time I play it with the EASE of EVERYTHING. I have FD potions on a Paladin. WTF?!?!?!?! ROFL!!!!!!!
I'll end this tirade now.
VR... give us IMMERSION, but also give us ... something we can LIVE WITH while we live and work in the REAL WORLD!
-Q
Nanoushka said:Quoted from Grymmlocke's post :)
Those that would rather spend their time out in the world exploring and seeking adventure would rather pay that reasonable tax/fee to sell their goods and be on their way. Imposing any further demands on those that prefer this play style, outside of the reasonable tax/fee, seem punitive and aimed at discouraging this style of play. Both styles of play are equally valid, and should be equally as viable. Give players options to play the way they desire to play, and don't place impediments in the game that favor one style of play over the other. Just my 2cp.
I disagree that both playstyles should be equally as viable. I think if one person invests more time into an element of an mmorpg, it's only sensible that they'll profit from doing this. In that sense I believe chucking stuff on a vendor npc and being off again shouldn't be rewarded as much. It should be viable, but with obvious disadvantages. Otherwise most people will opt for this option, not simply because they prefer it but because it is both more convenient and efficient and you'd be silly not to use it.
The interesting thing to me is that I couldn't care less about trading, I've never had the patience for playing the market. Anything that would make selling and buying very convenient should be high on my list but it isn't. The chances of making it an impersonal number game again are quite big when I look at some of the solutions. While if it's tied to personal time investment (I really liked your post on the npc vendors btw Evoras, you made the whole concept much more attractive to me :)) and incentivizes personal contact between players one way or another, it won't run that risk as much.
I think the main thing is that some regard trade truly as a feature of the game while others simply see it as an obstacle that needs to be taken. To me it seems like it has much potential for fun and engaging gameplay even if it isn't necessarily your cup of tea. I won't profit from it in gold but I hope the game itself will profit from a more social experience.
Viable as defined by Merriam-Webster: capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately. Not trying to be snarky, just want to be clear on my meaning. I agree with you that those players that invest more of that precious commodity known as time should reap greater profits, and they will do so. Of this I have no doubt. The players that utilize the player controlled npc's will be paying a reasonable tax/fee for a minor convenience and modest profits. Ideally, I would like to see a min/max price range set by the game itself to regulate these npc merchants on a regional basis. Players, such as myself, that just want to sale those uncommon dropped items, that are somewhat in demand, for more than they would get from a game controlled vendor will do just that. It's those rare items in high demand that I see the merchant class making their profits from. The players that truly relish trading will be the ones out there searching the markets, seeing what profits can be made by buying and selling items across regions, spending time developing markets, finding those rare and unusual items that are in high demand, and selling them for prices more substantial than the npc marketplace renders. These merchant class players will put in the time needed to travel from region to region finding those opportunities to make greater profits and capitalize on them. I just want to be able to pay my fees, sell my item(s), and be back out adventuring as soon as possible with a little extra coin in my purse.
When I have materials for crafting that I know have a value to other players but are perhaps not hot-sellers, let me sell them to a NPC trader for an ok but low price where other players know they can buy them.
When I have crafted items that are desirable, but I won't be selling them all in one go, let me leave them with an NPC merchant to sell them for a fee and pick up the gold later.
When I have magic items I no longer need, let me put them on a "for sale" listing so I can organise deals and meets in Tells.
When I have obtained The Item of Uberness let me roam from zone to zone shouting my joy (and my price).
For good reason, a variety of methods have arisen IRL for different kinds of items and for different kinds of people. Yes, Amazon Prime isn't sociable, but even in medieval times you didn't get everyone stood in a clump shouting random items and prices at each other.
disposalist said:When I have materials for crafting that I know have a value to other players but are perhaps not hot-sellers, let me sell them to a NPC trader for an ok but low price where other players know they can buy them.
When I have crafted items that are desirable, but I won't be selling them all in one go, let me leave them with an NPC merchant to sell them for a fee and pick up the gold later.
When I have magic items I no longer need, let me put them on a "for sale" listing so I can organise deals and meets in Tells.
When I have obtained The Item of Uberness let me roam from zone to zone shouting my joy (and my price).
If the NPC trader route were taken, and, based on recent Aradune's postings he is wanting full automated NPC trader's - they should look to Project Gorgon's Consignment System and improve upon it.
Back to Dullahan and I's back and forth - everyone in Project Gorgon uses the consignment system versus manually trading, even with the fees because the consignment system's convenience factor far outweighs the negatives.
Here's Project Gorgon's system:
1. NPC Traders are unlocked by favor - (Faction in EQ terms - around aimably/friendly in EQ terms). Favor is typically earned through quests or by items that the NPCs "like" which remove items from the game, but I'm sure VRI could be more creative. Until you have the appropriate favor, you can't sell through the consignment system. Each NPC trader is separate and each requires individual tasks/quests/items etc. in order to unlock. It isn't unlock one and you get them all.
2. Limited number of NPC traders that you can unlock with favor, which helps to avoid flooding the market with items
3. Consignment Shops are regional - you can only search the items that each specific NPC trader lists. There are no global searches
4. You can only sell 2-4 items consignment style per vendor. It helps to avoid flooding the market with items
5. Set Listing Fee of 100 gold
6. Consignment Vendor takes a cut of 10% of the sale (So 100 gold on a 1000 gold item).
7. Time Limited - 7 days. If not sold, the item is returned to you
8. Another side note that I thought was good with Project Gorgon was that NPC vendors have a limited amount of coin in which they can purchase vendored items. The coin refreshes after a period of time, but it restricted the ability to just farm high money vendorable items for ever. This also promotes people to use the consignment system or trading to earn coin.
__________________________________________________________________
What I would change:
#1. I would make it more difficult to unlock NPC traders, and perhaps set a cap on the number of traders you could unlock. Perhaps there could be some epic merchant quests related to diplomacy etc. down the line that would let you unlock more.
#5/6 Since manually trading doesn't really exist (with the exception of a few outliers), given this system above, if you wanted to have "both" I believe #5 and #6 would need to be significantly higher. #5 would need to be a % of your listed item at least 5-10% versus a set fee and the Vendor would need to be at least around 25% of the sale if not higher. There has to be significant "risk" in using the NPC trader or everyone will default to using it.
And, one final note regarding your mention of tradeskill items: Project Gorgon did a good job on that as well - most crafting materials sell fairly well to the vendors, until the vendors run out of money. I had mentioned another idea on page 5/6 of this thread though to basically have a commodities market where the NPC vendors mark up the sale at least 4x as much where a player could undercut the NPC vendors if they wished to manually trade.
The question I have regarding Project Gorgon is how many people are actually playing? Are there enough players for there to be a legitimate demand and does it make selling items manually viable?
Second question is what kind of players does the game currently attract. I would guess you currently have a high volume of hardcore fans willing to play the game in an alpha state. These are the kind of people who are much more likely to seek to obtain items themselves rather than buy them.
The third question that has to be asked, is how rare are items in PG? If items aren't that rare, they aren't that valuable and thus, the demand will naturally be lower.
Last observation is that there tax on convenience is incredibly low, so that will not suffice as a deterrent for most people.
Dullahan said:Aradune said:I think the having your own merchant NPC that would sell your wares is a good compromise fitting in-between one extreme (everything is face to face, player to player) and the other extreme, a full on auction house. I will say that I'm leaning towards this being what we'll do. Of course, this doesn't stop player to player trades/sales.
And then some kind of list board, as you mentioned.
As for the EC Tunnel part of things, while I do think people will find areas once they learn the world, the routes, efficient ways to get from point a to point b, etc. and that there will be places that make sense to place your merchant minion NPC there, I don't necessarily agree that we'll get a repeat of EQ, e.g there will be only one of these. The way the world is being crafted, where the races are, the different continents, etc. I'm hoping we would see multiple spots.
If people are concerned that because of the merchants minions that no one will do player to player trades, 1. I don't necessarily agree but 2. if that turned out to be the case in alpha and beta, we could implement a tax or similar system to encourage face to face trades.
Anyway, that's where I pretty much sit at the moment.
Without some kind of ongoing fee for a stall, npc wages or a tax, I'm not sure how you will incentivize manual trade. Without a cost drawback, I believe Raidan's thoughts would actually be inevitable and players would simply take the easy way out. I really think there has to be something to encourage traditional trade from the jump.
Using a merchant NPC is still just an auction house, it's just one that moves around a little bit. Seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.
If we want to allow some amount of automation of selling (which I support), why not set up connected merchant areas (basically another term for an auction house), but only allow certain items to be sold there.
Let's create a COMMODITY tag, and any item that is tagged with COMMODITY can be sold via the automated function. Any other item must be only sold manually (bulletin board advertising, face to face deal finalizing, etc). This gives the devs the ability to switch what can and cannot be sold via NPC by simply switching on or off that item's COMMODITY tag.
Evoras said:@Grymmlocke
ah! now I see what you are getting at! Mea Culpa ... I did indeed forget about potential abuse and the requirements for putting safeguards in place. You are right to point out that many modern games have more issues from market-rigging than from mere inefficiencies of the economic model. I will definitely have to put more consideration into the 'abuse' arguement in future.
SOLUTION?
Don't know yet! hehe. Not that I ever consider any of my posts are actually 'solutions, merely possible avenues for development. I do like the simple method though. I would certainly advocate using 'basic' NPC merchants during the entire Alpha, and possibly most of Beta too. With future extension built into the basic NPC merchant class, it would be possible to release and test the 'basic' model, then later look at what could be done to further develop it .... safely.
PS stopping a person/guild from cornering the market in a specific commondity is harder than you might think. Assuming you think it should not be possbile in the first place. It would require a much more detailed and closer look at how the market develops through alpha to beta, and how many hubs cropped up doing this.
-Evoras, Will get back to you after writing his last 5 lesson plans! :) ... maybe. If his brain is still working.
Evoras, I'm going to say something, and I hope you don't take it as an insult because it's definitely not intended that way.
I've read some of your posts, and I can clearly see you have put thought into some of the things you've written. That's great. I have been developing customer business software for 20 years, and your posts strike me as what I see from a lot of younger developers I have coached up. They frequently have a tendency to be very eager for features (again, not necessarily bad) and tend to sometimes over do what is really necessary to get the desired end result. The more layers of complexity that are added to any system the more things that can and will go wrong, the more loopholes and inadvertant side reactions and edge cases will be encountered.
With experience, one of the hardest lessons for any developer to learn is that any system should be only as complicated as is absolutely necessary to achieve the goal, and no more. Many of your posts, while well-intentioned and clearly thoughtfully-driven, make a number of assumptions that really shouldn't be automatically assumed and also convey a number of layers of complexity beyond what should be necesary to be used to satisfy the requirements.
Anway, this is not an attack by any means. Clearly you are passionate about wanting Pantheon to be a great game and so I respect you for that quite a bit. I just think your energies will be better used by paring back the complexity of your designs and keeping in mind the base goal.
@Searril
I don't take it as an attack in any way. Much, if not all, of what you say is true. The amazing thing is that when *i* am inside the process I am always rolling my eyes at 'feature creep' and the expectation of cramming 'just a bit more' into what I am currently doing! It goes to show that, once outside it, you can easily fall victim to the same urges hehe
Thank you for the input, by the way. I will try to keep your point in mind.
Searril said:Using a merchant NPC is still just an auction house, it's just one that moves around a little bit. Seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.
If we want to allow some amount of automation of selling (which I support), why not set up connected merchant areas (basically another term for an auction house), but only allow certain items to be sold there.
Let's create a COMMODITY tag, and any item that is tagged with COMMODITY can be sold via the automated function. Any other item must be only sold manually (bulletin board advertising, face to face deal finalizing, etc). This gives the devs the ability to switch what can and cannot be sold via NPC by simply switching on or off that item's COMMODITY tag.
An auction house is general a global network where all sold items are searchable and able to be purchased from any given location. A merchant NPC is quite different if you can't search all merchants globally and have to actually travel to the merchant to buy from it.
I fully support an AH. I loved classic EQ, and if we don't have an AH I'll deal with it just fine, but recreating the bad parts of EQ is not smart. Not even sure no AH will create any community difference than if there was an AH.
They could always go the FFXI route and create an AH while basically all rare items couldn't be put on AH, but still sold by either shouting or put into ones bazaar.
Dullahan said:Searril said:Using a merchant NPC is still just an auction house, it's just one that moves around a little bit. Seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.
If we want to allow some amount of automation of selling (which I support), why not set up connected merchant areas (basically another term for an auction house), but only allow certain items to be sold there.
Let's create a COMMODITY tag, and any item that is tagged with COMMODITY can be sold via the automated function. Any other item must be only sold manually (bulletin board advertising, face to face deal finalizing, etc). This gives the devs the ability to switch what can and cannot be sold via NPC by simply switching on or off that item's COMMODITY tag.
An auction house is general a global network where all sold items are searchable and able to be purchased from any given location. A merchant NPC is quite different if you can't search all merchants globally and have to actually travel to the merchant to buy from it.
So one is a building in a location with a board that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
The other is an NPC in a different location that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
Still seeing a distinction without a difference.
I think another fix for what is the "problem" of items needing to be sold - for me anyway - would be having nearly endless bank space. Sell expansions of bank space. Then charge upkeep on it. Reasonable coin. This reduces the need or drive to sell everything. Getting rid of last night's loot is not nearly as important now that I know I still have plenty of room to store it at the bank.
Something else I just thought of... Make banks regional as I've seen discussed, along with markets/AH's, but give me an ingame tool that let's me SEE what I have at which location. THIS, to me, would be perfect, really. Immersive. Realistic. You could also incorporate a "classified" goods post connected to banking. Not an instant purchasing system, but a publicly viewable bank slot that let's others SEE what I have and let's them know WHO to contact to make arrangements for purchase. A WORKING ingame email system would be a necessary component. EQ's email STILL doesn't work for crap lol
I, personally, do not mind REAL time sinks. Being a successful blacksmith takes TIME. This isn't some wacky science-fiction game like Star Trek where you have a food replicator or a teleporter. I mean, COME ON! Hehehehe :p
ps- i've played pc games where purchasing goods from overseas ports was easily doable but it also took time for said goods to arrive. they must be shipped. the further away they are the longer it takes them to arrive. instant AH is not what i'm interested in.
This is an important topic for me. Previously in this thread I have advocated for having some sort of auction house and the compromise that Brad posted a few pages back where he talks about having merchant NPCs seems like a decent one. That was basically how EQ worked with the Bazaar. You could still chat to people who were selling and could still make deals with people there was also (on my EQ server at least) a global auction chat channel that people could join if they wanted to haggle about the price of good or wanted to sell while they were not in the Bazaar. I saw quite a lot of activity in the Bazaar with people selling things and not everyone was AFK because they were trying to buy as well as sell at the same time so all the horror stories about how the Bazaar ruined any community interaction when it came to selling is false in my mind. Maybe it was different on your EQ server so perhaps it did kill it in certain situations.
I just think we need some sort of compromise and I think Brads idea comes across as a nice in-between solution for people who don't want to spend all their time trying to sell their goods while at the same time catering to those who love to get the best deals on items by talking to other people.
I'm gonna put this as simple as I can because I've spent a lot of time in this thread and we've had a lot of great discussion but I haven't posted in a while so I give you this.
I don't want archaic 1999 EQ old school mechanics just for the sake that EQ was loved by so many. What I also don't want is to run by a village with 50 people huddled around an NPC not a word being said and all of them shuffling around a step or two left or right staring blankly ahead while the player is sifting through a bunch of item screens.
I want to run by a village and see a shop where players are busy crafting and chatting busily moving around while others are trading and bartering where the area and scene are alive with social vibes. And for the player who doesn't have the time to spend to barter their items they can join in on this social area (adding to it) and drop their items off with a player who IS willing to spend the time to sell their goods and then go off and adventure in the woods or a dungeon. Or just some feature or system like this where the players can handle trade organicly and together without the use of automated vendors. I ask this, if you were to run by 2 shops and one you saw 10 players standing in front of a global AH NPC vendor standing there blankly at the NPC while sifting through their item screens or were to run by a 2nd shop where 6 players were all trying to trade with each other in person face to face...which scene or scenario would seem more alive to you? Which world would feel more alive? I don't feel like some people understand how important this is to creating a world that feels alive that people love and get lost in. I know some others this will never matter at all. But there are some who want that old EQ feeling or old something feeling yet you don't understand that it's things like this where EQ forced players to interact with each other that made it come to life which in turn made you get lost in its world. t's a video game TRYING to create the ILLUSION of a living world. And the more people that stand zombie while their screens are filled with windows the more the world loses that life.
It might seem like pie-in-the-sky to some but people didn't leave EQ to play WoW or other games because they had global AHs and EQ didn't. But years down the road people are missing the 'good ol days' or that social aspect of EQ and it's over these same exact reasons, issues, and/or concerns for why they are missing it. Simply because EQ created a space for players to interact with each other to a much higher degree than what these newer MMOs create. What I ask is, if it's a win-win, if it's a environment where playes trade face to face while also not an environment where global AHs exist or even automated vendors for selling your items, but you can also drop your items off somewhere so you can spend your time doing other things you like then why not?
Cheers all, it's been a great thread!
NoobieDoo said:I'm gonna put this as simple as I can because I've spent a lot of time in this thread and we've had a lot of great discussion but I haven't posted in a while so I give you this.
I don't want archaic 1999 EQ old school mechanics just for the sake that EQ was loved by so many. What I also don't want is to run by a village with 50 people huddled around an NPC not a word being said and all of them shuffling around a step or two left or right staring blankly ahead while the player is sifting through a bunch of item screens.
I want to run by a village and see a shop where players are busy crafting and chatting busily moving around while others are trading and bartering where the area and scene are alive with social vibes. And for the player who doesn't have the time to spend to barter their items they can join in on this social area (adding to it) and drop their items off with a player who IS willing to spend the time to sell their goods and then go off and adventure in the woods or a dungeon. Or just some feature or system like this where the players can handle trade organicly and together without the use of automated vendors. I ask this, if you were to run by 2 shops and one you saw 10 players standing in front of a global AH NPC vendor standing there blankly at the NPC while sifting through their item screens or were to run by a 2nd shop where 6 players were all trying to trade with each other in person face to face...which scene or scenario would seem more alive to you? Which world would feel more alive? I don't feel like some people understand how important this is to creating a world that feels alive that people love and get lost in. I know some others this will never matter at all. But there are some who want that old EQ feeling or old something feeling yet you don't understand that it's things like this where EQ forced players to interact with each other that made it come to life which in turn made you get lost in its world. t's a video game TRYING to create the ILLUSION of a living world. And the more people that stand zombie while their screens are filled with windows the more the world loses that life.
It might seem like pie-in-the-sky to some but people didn't leave EQ to play WoW or other games because they had global AHs and EQ didn't. But years down the road people are missing the 'good ol days' or that social aspect of EQ and it's over these same exact reasons, issues, and/or concerns for why they are missing it. Simply because EQ created a space for players to interact with each other to a much higher degree than what these newer MMOs create. What I ask is, if it's a win-win, if it's a environment where playes trade face to face while also not an environment where global AHs exist or even automated vendors for selling your items, but you can also drop your items off somewhere so you can spend your time doing other things you like then why not?
Cheers all, it's been a great thread!
Everyone understands what you want. I think that has been made abundantly clear in this thread. The problem is that not everyone wants or even cares about that. I've done the whole EQ thing and it was a pain in the arse to sell and buy things. I don't want to go back to a system where you manually have to sell every little thing to people. It was god awful and took AGES to get anything done. Perhaps if there was an automated selling system for the little things and then when you had a nice bit of loot that was worth a lot of plat you could sell that manually if you really wanted. The eventual outcome of having an EC tunnel system like early EQ is that some people just don't sell things and end up being poor because they don't want to go through the hassle of selling things.
This is why we need a compromise system that pleases both sets of players. Automate as much as you can but make face to face selling an option if you really want to probably done by taxing automated trades so you don't make as much money as you would if you had sold face to face. That way people like me could just sell using the automated systems and those that wanted to make the maximum amount of money could sell face to face.
These ideas have been put forward by other people and I think they are pretty good in general. Certainly better than the old EQ EC tunnel system which I hated with a passion.
Why do people pretend that with the old EQ methods, the EC tunnel was the only place you could buy or sell something? This whole notion that it's got to be either sit in the EC tunnel to get anything done, or have an auction house is a false choice. It's a scam.
There's nothing in the world stopping people from hitting an auction channel macro as they run thru zones, to buy or to sell. Or while they're in a dungeon for that matter. I almost never just sat in EC, and yet I bought and sold on a regular basis. And I remembered people who commonly bought certain things like tradeskills items, and eventually just sent direct tells to them asking if they were interested in more. I'm kind of getting fed up with the people that present this situation as if a lack of an auction house forces them to sit somewhere and be a merchant when they dislike that. It doesnt. Not even a little bit. Might it force you to hit a macro a few times? Yeah. Might it force you to deviate from your course for 1 minute to buy/sell something occasionally? Yeah. Might it encourage you to remember people for something other than groupmates? Yeah. Are those really such catastrophic things when they provide a very compelling angle of play for so many other people?
Feyshtey said:Why do people pretend that with the old EQ methods, the EC tunnel was the only place you could buy or sell something? This whole notion that it's got to be either sit in the EC tunnel to get anything done, or have an auction house is a false choice. It's a scam.
There's nothing in the world stopping people from hitting an auction channel macro as they run thru zones, to buy or to sell. Or while they're in a dungeon for that matter. I almost never just sat in EC, and yet I bought and sold on a regular basis. And I remembered people who commonly bought certain things like tradeskills items, and eventually just sent direct tells to them asking if they were interested in more. I'm kind of getting fed up with the people that present this situation as if a lack of an auction house forces them to sit somewhere and be a merchant when they dislike that. It doesnt. Not even a little bit. Might it force you to hit a macro a few times? Yeah. Might it force you to deviate from your course for 1 minute to buy/sell something occasionally? Yeah. Might it encourage you to remember people for something other than groupmates? Yeah. Are those really such catastrophic things when they provide a very compelling angle of play for so many other people?
I agree, and AH type system does not stop anyone from trading elsewhere, it just centralizes it for the masses.
I liked the centralized concept of the EC tunnel, but hated the implementation. Hated sifting through walls of scrolling text looking for what I want (Days before linking sucked worse, especialy on an item you weren't familiar with), then having to type the persons name, heaven help you if they had one of those really odd spelled names and the text was scrolling like the Indy 500.
I would like to see a player "hire" a space in a village shop to sell their wares a percentage of the proceeds going to the shop, the rest going to the player. This would cause other players to browse shops in case something interesting was about. I would like to see market stalls be available to hire or buy that sit in village greens (maybe even having local market days). Anything that will fit within the game, naturally.
However, players will invent their own area for buying and selling, regardless of what the game can do or not, zone shouting etc. blahh.. I hate people with streams and streams of text shouting their latest "sale" over the entire zone.
Personally, I would like to see a local and non-local in-game publication which would allow people to buy advertising space for their skills and products or requests. This could initiate a contract, that needs to be fulfilled by each player or an automatic penalty is applied against the person failing to fulfil the contract. The product and money would then get applied to each person's accounts in line with distance from each other (via caravans, etc.). This slows down the buying/selling process and somewhat protecting local economies.
Just about everything I see in these forums is about convenience over immersion. I am tired of everything being handed to you on a plate and I am all for realism and immersion. While im playing, I want to believe that I am in a living breathing and working world. I dont want to be in a game where everything is about ease of play. There are plenty of those around, already. We need a fresh, non-spoon fed game.
Searril said:So one is a building in a location with a board that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
The other is an NPC in a different location that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
Still seeing a distinction without a difference.
The difference between those two is obviously not the player interaction part.
The difference is that with a global AH, the extreme convenience makes traditional forms of trade less likely. It also becomes a very easy way to game the market. When you cannot globally search and purchase items or sit in one place buying low and selling high all day, it actually makes manual trade more viable. Particularly when it comes at no additional cost and automation is taxed.