Jothany said:chenzeme said:Jothany: ...I believe a good starting place for finding an acceptable 'middle ground'...
Unfortunately, there cannot be a middle ground with this. If your client receives numbers that are only for your character, an application can still be built that can share your numbers with others. As soon as that happens, you have meters again.
I want to be sure I understand what you just said. Are you saying that you (or some hacker) can build an app that runs on your computer that will allow you to intercept the damage stats that the server is sending to me without any cooperation from me? AND that VR won't be able to detect it and ban you for hacking?
No, they make a program that everyone in a guild can download then they sync up with one another when raiding/grouping so they each send their logs/parses to the program and it shows everyones stats. The thing with this is it tends to not get used outside of static groups/friends/guild settings. So I have far less issue with it.
Yeah. I will not be joining any guilds or raids that require the use of damage meters of any sort. I've never had any issues in any previous MMO not using them and I won;t use them now. If you're a preparing to create a guild for Pantheon that requires the use of them if they're available for it, feel free to add me to your "do not invite" list now.
chenzeme said:Jothany said:chenzeme said:Jothany: ...I believe a good starting place for finding an acceptable 'middle ground'...
Unfortunately, there cannot be a middle ground with this. If your client receives numbers that are only for your character, an application can still be built that can share your numbers with others. As soon as that happens, you have meters again.
I want to be sure I understand what you just said. Are you saying that you (or some hacker) can build an app that runs on your computer that will allow you to intercept the damage stats that the server is sending to me without any cooperation from me? AND that VR won't be able to detect it and ban you for hacking?
You can run an application that reads your log file, this can be posted to a group that can then measure those stats, outside of the game without its knowledge. It doesn't have to intercept game messages. It can just read log files if they are switched on. No this would not be directly detectable from the game. VR might be able to inference such an application depending on your characters actions and timings, but that would be difficult. Interception of game messages is technically possible but not the easiest way to do it.
At no point did I say that it would not require you to run or know such an application was in operation, of course you would need to download it and run it and have your log switched on. My point was, if these numbers are available there are ways to use them. If they are used you will be expected to participate if you want to raid or do difficult ccontent. In effect, you are forced to use them if you want to raid, etc.
Surely if there's enough interest in raiding/grouping without the expectation of using DPS meters/a tool like ACT, then the community will have guilds that advertise they are free of these tools and those who do not desire to use them can join those guilds. I often hear about what sets Pantheon apart will be how the community can regulate itself. If that's the case, then there's no need to artificially restrict information that has been traditionally available in these types of MMOs in the form of combat logs. There are plenty of guilds/groups that have healthy and mature attitudes towards the use of DPS meters or tools like ACT. Toxic guilds and groups are going to be toxic regardless of the availability of these tools.
chenzeme said: people will be expected to use them or not get into raids, that's how it affects you.Certainly those in charge will tell you to use them or go and find another group/raid. It just isn't a simple choice of use or not use.
it is not a case of having a choice. If add-ons are available and you need to do hard content then you have to use them regardless of your wishes.
When that very same person then turns to me and says I have to change my rotation because I am not matching their numbers, regardless of what else I am doing, then it is affecting me too.
First I want to strongly encourage you to NOT let other people tell you what to do. Not in Pantheon, not in real life. Trust your instincts, and if you really don't want to do something then REFUSE. You might be surprised how often things turn out well.
There are many fans of Pantheon who do not intend to be staring at DPS meters as they play the game. They will make guilds. Those guilds will level to cap and do raids. So, if you do not want to "HAVE TO DO IT" as you keep claiming will be the only reality, I have good news. You won't have to. You'll have numerous choices. Just like Kalok, I certainly won't be in a guild that requires it. If you can't find one after release, look me up.
I am against having DPS meters 'factory installed' in the game for the obvious reason that it would indeed push the player base towards all the horrible oppression you detail above. But it is extremely unlikely that VR will do that. Having players who want to use meters find a way to create their own and even form guilds around their use does not need to be an unavoidable burden for all for the rest of us who do not.
Since I like I seeing my own damage numbers (not in a meter, just in a log) in order to improve my ability to play my class, I quoted a very reasonable suggestion made by another poster that sounds like an "acceptable middle ground" to me. And while you DID say:
chenzeme said: Unfortunately, there cannot be a middle ground with this.
You actually didn't offer a single factual reason why it wouldn't work. Lots of scary predictions about "those in charge" making me do it, but no logical reason why it wouldn't work.
So I still advocate for both sides to have a choice and neither to be forced into the other group's preference.
chenzeme said: Unfortunately, there cannot be a middle ground with this.Jothany: You actually didn't offer a single factual reason why it wouldn't work. Lots of scary predictions about "those in charge" making me do it, but no logical reason why it wouldn't work.
You obviously didnt read what I said and I certainly did justify my position that there cannot be a middle ground:
chenzeme: If your client receives numbers that are only for your character, an application can still be built that can share your numbers with others. As soon as that happens, you have meters again. If you can do it, raids and hard bosses will start to require it. It will become the standard and you will be at a disadvantage if you do not use them.
Numbers that are meant for an individual can be shared. Therefore, to say that only providing private numbers will stop the problem is incorrect and you are incorrect. Numbers can be shared, then meters can be made. Middle ground doesn't work. Three factual statements.
I dont care if you agree or disagree with me. Do not quote me and and miss the relevant parts to try to better your own stance. I stand by my statements and they are not "scary predictions". They are facts that happen now and will become part of PRotF if logs provide such information. If you dont agree with me, then provide meaningful arguments against it and do not misrepresent my arguements.
Jothany: Lots of scary predictions about "those in charge" making me do it, but no logical reason why it wouldn't work.
More inaccuracies. I didnt make any "scary predictions" and my logic is there is you if care to read it. Look at any other mmo that provides the numbers and you have meters and other tools that make game play easier. If that data is not disclosed, you cannot make tools that make gameplay easier. That is my argument. What is not factual about that? You either have numbers and accept meters (etc.), or you dont have numbers and meters dont exist. That is not a scary prediction it is logic!
Also, I have played just about every mmo going and every time there have been logs with number (etc.), there are meters and warnings, and if you raid, you are most certainly expected to use them, without exception. I have never seen a raiding guild that didnt use them if they were available. If one sets up that doesnt use them, then I would definately join, but I have yet to see that happen.
Jothany: So, if you do not want to "HAVE TO DO IT" as you keep claiming will be the only reality, I have good news. You won't have to. ...
First; capitals... rude! Second; I just dont agree with you. If you want to raid and meters and warnings are freely available, you will have to use them to participate in hard content. That happens in mmos now and there is no reason to think that it would not happen in Pantheon.
Sicario: Surely if there's enough interest in raiding/grouping without the expectation of using DPS meters/a tool like ACT, then the community will have guilds that advertise they are free of these tools
Maybe this will happen, but I cannot see any raiding guild make it harder for themselves if an easier way exists.
This is a prediction: I would expect guilds might start off saying that they dont use meters and the like, but I can see guilds slowly start using them because they cannot get a specific boss down. Just the once. Then once more when they hit another wall. And again...
chenzeme said: "If you want to raid and meters and warnings are freely available, you will have to use them to participate in hard content."
Usually the Raid doesn't actually require every player to have their own copy of the meters, since they (the Raid Leaders) can monitor the meters themselves and then figure out who may need some coaching on how to improve their skills.
The real trick is just finding a Guild or Raiding group that has leaders who understand how to read meters correctly, and who know that some players have other roles (eg. crowd control, off-healing, off-tanking, pulling, mana-feeding, etc...) during a raid that can effect their overall damager performace. And if the meters are created correctly they can actually montior 'active dps' times vs 'non-active dps' times so that the Leaders can see that when you are dps'ing you are doing a great job and know your skills. And when you were supposed to be doing something else, you were doing a great job at doing that something else too.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:chenzeme said: "If you want to raid and meters and warnings are freely available, you will have to use them to participate in hard content."
Usually the Raid doesn't actually require every player to have their own copy of the meters, since they (the Raid Leaders) can monitor the meters themselves and then figure out who may need some coaching on how to improve their skills.
The real trick is just finding a Guild or Raiding group that has leaders who understand how to read meters correctly, and who know that some players have other roles (eg. crowd control, off-healing, off-tanking, pulling, mana-feeding, etc...) during a raid that can effect their overall damager performace. And if the meters are created correctly they can actually montior 'active dps' times vs 'non-active dps' times so that the Leaders can see that when you are dps'ing you are doing a great job and know your skills. And when you were supposed to be doing something else, you were doing a great job at doing that something else too.
You have to remember that this is not just about meters and as the above quote says, its as much about warnings. Banners appearing that say something like "Big Boss is casting Kill all in sight". The warnings are actually the bigger cheat and are required by raids.
This is about cheating in all any use of 3rd party software to inprove your play in the game is CHEATING and allowing any of it is the slippy slope to Warning Banners, BOTS ect showing up in game
For thouse that say we had this in old school EQ I played 40+ hours a week 99 to 2004 had a bard and a shaman at over 3k AA and we guild kicked people for using any software to read client data because we didnt want to get hit with a Ban
Act oldest builds are eq2 in 2008 years after release and in eq that is Seeds of Destruction when they added MERCS Think we can all say this was not classic MMORPG at this point.
I have been asking in LFG and LFR in WOW as well as the Guild finder in game and in my region not one raiding guild that does not Req the use of a Trigger/ warning add on lots have a weak aura package they want you to use. That is just asking to be hacked.
We know where this leads we can see it in EQ/EQ2/WOW/Rift Look at all the ad ons used to bot these games or trivilize encounters.
Jobeson: Wow, actually trying to use "slippery slope" as an argument.
And that is not a counter argument.
If the client receives data that allows the building and use of 3rd party application that make the game play easier, it is cheating. End of argument. This thread is really about either allowing the cheating or stop the sending of data that can be used to cheat.
Jobeson: It makes more sense to see a players damage than inspecting their armor to see stats and actual items.
Damage and other related data can be used to cheat, stats on equipment cannot be used to cheat, therefore there is a difference between the two data sets.
Jobeson: No one can force you to play a certain way or follow a flavor of the month build.
This has been adressed is past posts over and over. If you want to do hard content (raids and/or strong bosses) and the 3rd party apps exist, then you will required to use them by the organisers of the raid. Raids will specify what they expect you to use and if you dont, you dont get to raid!
Jobeson: Stand up for yourself if a guild is trying to micromanage you.
As stated mulitple times, it is not about standing up for yourself, if you need a raid boss or complete hard content, and the 3rd party cheats are available, you will not be able to find a raid or guild that doesnt expect their use when attempting that content. If you say, "I will not use a cheat on principal", the leader of the raid will then say "Fine! Find another raid". Great, you have just excluded yourself from that content.
I dont think a DPS meter will make a diffrance in pantheon I hope not the small number of ablitys and what they do should be very ez to know what to do to max dps. I am hopefull like in eq we didnt have to teach people to be dps it should be ez. Knowing when and how to use the other utilty or the class or a wiz learning never be full mana. or even the cleric learning when to add some dps when to stand back. EQ battle clerics always made my day I dont know what there dps was but it was more than sitting back full mana waiting to cast the next heal.
But if the devs think a meter should be needed it should be in the client.
Some of these responses have me worried. It seems a lot of people feel Pantheon should copy and mimic the direction of the last decade of MMORPGs and just put out a competing product. Pantheon will never be able to out-ESO, ESO or out-WoW, WoW. If they went in that direction, all they would accomplish is being a cheap knockoff with 10% of the funding and employees of those games. What people are suggesting is a disaster waiting to happen. The fact that DPS meters and data-mining is what has ruined the genre in the eyes of many suggests Pantheon should avoid sending as much information to the client side as possible.
There are a ton of other games giving you people what you want already, right now, at the top of the market. There is NO GAME like classic EQ in existance. That's the market entry point where an independent studio with limited funds and employees actually has a chance. But they can't copy the mistakes of the last decade of MMO game development just because it's expected or easier. Pantheon has to be drastically different or else people will just play ESO or WoW. Or people will just focus on Riot's LoL MMO or Amazon's new LoTRO MMO, both of which are guaranteed to be huge in a few years. Pantheon has zero chance of competing unless it is in its own niche market with limited direct competition. Damage meters, Cosmetic Shops, and Add-Ons aren't niche, they're the current norm. They have to zig while everyone else zags to have a chance to stand out.
chenzeme said:Jobeson: Wow, actually trying to use "slippery slope" as an argument.
And that is not a counter argument.
If the client receives data that allows the building and use of 3rd party application that make the game play easier, it is cheating. End of argument.
This is an argument against most keyboards and mice on the market. It is an argument against discord. It is an argument against youtube/twitch/etc. It is an argument against fan sites about the gaming world. Going over the top on framing your stance as a crusade against cheating while using a logical fallacy to make that connection is laughable. I am sorry you cannot see that. It isn't to say you / the other people in the thread do not have valid points as personal preferences and dislikes are the entire point of this forum. I can see the merrits in delaying the log write by a second to mess with people trying to use it to auto call out raid bosses. However I have clearly spoken about this slippery slope now so it is the End of argument.
chenzeme said:Jobeson: It makes more sense to see a players damage than inspecting their armor to see stats and actual items.
Damage and other related data can be used to cheat, stats on equipment cannot be used to cheat, therefore there is a difference between the two data sets.
Your definition of cheating is using the data displayed in chat. Data displayed in the game can be used to cheat but data displayed in the game cannot be used to cheat. :D I was more meaning in regards to gatekeeping a raid. In your world there is nothing stopping a raid leader to keep you from raiding because you do not already have raid gear. This is in reference to people having poor DPS being kicked from the raids not those being asked to set up a parser for the raid.
chenzeme said:Jobeson: No one can force you to play a certain way or follow a flavor of the month build.
This has been adressed is past posts over and over. If you want to do hard content (raids and/or strong bosses) and the 3rd party apps exist, then you will required to use them by the organisers of the raid. Raids will specify what they expect you to use and if you dont, you dont get to raid!
Jobeson: Stand up for yourself if a guild is trying to micromanage you.
As stated mulitple times, it is not about standing up for yourself, if you need a raid boss or complete hard content, and the 3rd party cheats are available, you will not be able to find a raid or guild that doesnt expect their use when attempting that content. If you say, "I will not use a cheat on principal", the leader of the raid will then say "Fine! Find another raid". Great, you have just excluded yourself from that content.
Claiming it has been addressed by saying you refuse to make your own raid or find people to play with is not addressing it. If the organizer of the raid says no monks then I guess you better remake your class since you are just out of luck for good. The organizer has spoken! You may want a raid boss to complete a quest. You don't need to raid with a particular set of people. This is not excluding your self from content. It is excluding yourself from that group of players. Giving up on raiding in general is your response to being told no yet here you are on the forum continuing to make your point and push for what you want. You obviously know how to be persistent but refuse to in game for reasons I cannot fathom. (Side note: I do not think contested raid bosses should be tied to quests. Respawning rare raid level trash or drops in the zone sure, but the contested bosses themselves is always going to be a real PITA.)
What will you do if they demand you join discord? Quit the raid? How dare a guild want you to use a third party application that makes the game easier? How dare they expect you to watch a kill video that shows you the fight and the strategy if you have never killed it before? Don't they know that is a third party application to make the game easier?!? Just wait until you find out that even without detailed in game maps there will be maps online people are going to use. Those cheaters with their google making the game easier!
With all that said, I have no problem raiding with people not personally using parsers. Honestly I would guess the people parsing are only about 50-50. I have lead raids in EQ, EQ2, RIFT, and WOW. The only toxic one to raiders (not drama between guilds) was WoW with the LFR. I had parses in all of them. I never once tried to force others to use them. (flashbacks to EQ days where I had to tell the parser my pet was my pet every summon so it could add its damage to me, the horror) Hell I patched a few of the parsers myself (Big thank you to everyone who actually gives the code for their programs!)
Voice chat (WITH A PUSH TO TALK KEY) was the only deal breaker I ever enforced for raids. It is a night and day difference to raiding. A million times easier to raid with voice chat than to raid without a parser or even banner warnings.
Voice chat is great we had this in EQ2 in 2008 no add on needed we used it every raid and dungeon to go over boss strat to new comers call out Joasts, Burns, Heals, Rez. Great tool would expect to see it in any game coming out now. This is live player communication.
the go watch youtube to learn the boss please I hope this does not become standard for pantheon. If there is one strat for every boss the game is Junk it should change based on raid make up and it has been said bosses will adjust to players. I thinking with contested raiding that posting strats will be a big No No for most guild.
This all falls into being a good Raid leader rather than just inviting people to a raid.
I have said you need to join voice to raid need to lisen never seen a need to req a mic.
I can not think of a time in my full time raiding that I every watched a youtube strat to defeat a boss. Most times we where ahead of the strats getting posted. I stopped raiding eq live before RO came out 2006, EQ2 after velious, and WoW with cata. I have been in raids past this but I was not raiding x number of days a week. I find it to be like asking some one to read the cliff notes before the book.
This is an MMORPG lets keep the Role Playing Adventure
If people want to speed run it be world first great Do it with the systems the game gave you want to pull up a quest on casters realm or alla or what ever and look up a quest you be you want to use software to read chat log or watch for the AoE of doom and give you a WARNING nope your cheating if the game needs this for the majorty to complete an encounter it is out of tune.
Adding That I mean majorty as in proper level gear and party/raid size. Not every one gets to win always I am a bit old for that thinking.
Players will always choose the path of least resistance.
Like multiboxing, if VR wont regulate them they are allowing outside programs to happen.
This discussion plays out very similar to multiboxing in the way that it allows players to gain an advantage and not rely as heavily on other players in the community..
Joppa reassessed VRs stance on multiboxing a year or 2 ago. Maybe this will end up the same? Philosophically it is the same as multiboxing. The difference is it is more difficult to regulate.
People do realize this is about gaining greater advantages than just meters right?
Jobeson: Your definition of cheating is using the data displayed in chat... Going over the top on framing your stance as a crusade against cheating while using a logical fallacy to make that connection is laughable.
Wrong! At no point have I even mentioned the chat window. Where? No where! It is the numbers and other data sent to the client, not what appears in the chat window. It is the content of the log file; a totally different beast. In addition, it is specifically the use of those number and data items by 3rd party applications that make it easier to kill a boss, that is the issue.
Crusade against cheating? Man you are in a dream world. I agree on VR's stance, that is not a crusade. I am saying is that if meters and warnings are not to be a feature, then the data supporting those apps cannot be sent to the client. How is that a crusade against cheating? It is not.
Jobeson: This is an argument against most keyboards and mice on the market. It is an argument against discord.
Urrghh! Taking statements to extremes is a sure indicator of flawed arguements. Dont be ridiculous! VR developers allow the use of keyboards and mice because you cannot use the client without them. They also provide configuration tools that allows you to change key mappings and mouse button assignments. Because software is provided by the developers that allows direct manipulation of the keyboard and mouse settings, then it is implied that developers expect their use and it is permitted.
If VR ever say that Discord should not be used for PRotF then, as far as PRotF is concerned, it is a cheat. But they wont.
Just because something is in use, it doesnt mean it should be used. It boils down to what the developers say you can use and cannot use with their game. If the rules of the game dont allow it, it is a cheat. I cannot make it any clearer than that.
Jobeson: What will you do if they demand you join discord? Quit the raid?
Another twisted argument. It is not about quitting a raid, it is about being able to join a raid in the first place. A totally different proposition. If the software exists and the raid requires it, you will not be able to join without its use. It is not your choice. You will be forced to use it or not raid.
Jobeson: How dare a guild want you to use a third party application that makes the game easier? ... just wait until you find out that even without detailed in game maps there will be maps online people are going to use.
I never said that, but to go along with it; your (poor) equivalence argument of maps (and videos, etc.) with mechanisms that make it easier to kill a boss; as I have said multiple times here and in previous posts, it boils down to what VR allow the use of. VR have already said that they expect people to create and make use of databases and maps and it is fine with them. Therefore, maps are not a cheat. Videos are not a cheat. VR have also said that meters and warnings are not fine with them, therefore as far as Pantheon is concerned, they are cheats.
Jobeson: I had parses in all of them. I never once tried to force others to use them.
When ever metersand warnings were available; on joining a raid I have always been asked; "do you have X running?" If I said no, I was told it was a requirement and had to use it, no ifs, no buts. If I didnt use it I had to find another raid. I was forced to use them or go elsewhere.
You don't need to raid with a particular set of people.
Its all very well saying that, but if everyone is using them, you will find it impossible to find enough people who dont use them to make a raid in the first place.
Basically you have tried to twist, exaggerate and imply incorrect meaning in my post and have not presented any valid counter arguments. To make it clear, in a nut shell, I have said and continue to believe:
1) If numbers and other fight related information are sent to the client, 3rd party apps will be created that give the users of those apps a clear advantage over those that do not use them.
2) If there are 3rd party apps are available, everyone will be forced to use them to stay on a level playing field. To not use them will put youself at a significant disadvantage.
3) If VR say that external software (or hardware) can be used or provide that functionality in-game, then it is not cheating to use such items.
4) If VR say a 3rd party application should not be used, then it is cheating to use such items.
I am not implying anything above and beyond what is stated in those four entries.
chenzeme said:
Jobeson: Your definition of cheating is using the data displayed in chat... Going over the top on framing your stance as a crusade against cheating while using a logical fallacy to make that connection is laughable.Wrong! At no point have I even mentioned the chat window. Where? No where! It is the numbers and other data sent to the client, not what appears in the chat window. It is the content of the log file; a totally different beast. In addition, it is specifically the use of those number and data items by 3rd party applications that make it easier to kill a boss, that is the issue.
Crusade against cheating? Man you are in a dream world. I agree on VR's stance, that is not a crusade. I am saying is that if meters and warnings are not to be a feature, then the data supporting those apps cannot be sent to the client. How is that a crusade against cheating? It is not.
You realize the damage log is the data in the chat right? "The client" is "recieving data" The fact many parsers do not even read the data from a log any more but use other means to read the data means "the client" is "recieving the data" clients always recieve the data that is how everything works in the game. Your argument seems to be if VR doesn't make their own parser then they shouldn't allow people to have parsers. VR is even addressing limiting information sent to the client in any form not just a combat log to keep some information server side so things like threat meters are never truly accurate for some of the data. I approve of what VR is doing here. It goes against what you are claiming that VR thinks it is a cheat.
chenzeme said:Jobeson: This is an argument against most keyboards and mice on the market. It is an argument against discord.
Urrghh! Taking statements to extremes is a sure indicator of flawed arguements. Dont be ridiculous! VR developers allow the use of keyboards and mice because you cannot use the client without them. They also provide configuration tools that allows you to change key mappings and mouse button assignments. Because software is provided by the developers that allows direct manipulation of the keyboard and mouse settings, then it is implied that developers expect their use and it is permitted.
If VR ever say that Discord should not be used for PRotF then, as far as PRotF is concerned, it is a cheat. But they wont.
Just because something is in use, it doesnt mean it should be used. It boils down to what the developers say you can use and cannot use with their game. If the rules of the game dont allow it, it is a cheat. I cannot make it any clearer than that.
"If the client receives data that allows the building and use of 3rd party application that make the game play easier, it is cheating. End of argument." - chenzeme
You are whitelisting third party programs you like while arguing in favor banning parsers, claiming people using a parser is cheating. VR never came out and said it is cheating YOU DID. You are pushing for the thread to abolish parsing in the game that VR said they would allow. You are using blanket arguments that apply to countless other programs. You are even happy to admit if they said voice chat is cheating then it is a cheat. Well VR never said parsing is a cheat. Why are you pushing to ban them?
chenzeme said:Jobeson: What will you do if they demand you join discord? Quit the raid?
Another twisted argument. It is not about quitting a raid, it is about being able to join a raid in the first place. A totally different proposition. If the software exists and the raid requires it, you will not be able to join without its use. It is not your choice. You will be forced to use it or not raid.
Make your own raids if you want. That is the beauty of the MMO. If you can't find a group MAKE ONE. You act like you are entirely helpless. Adventurers go around slaying dragons and the like. You don't need an invitation.
chenzeme said:Jobeson: How dare a guild want you to use a third party application that makes the game easier? ... just wait until you find out that even without detailed in game maps there will be maps online people are going to use.
I never said that, but to go along with it; your (poor) equivalence argument of maps (and videos, etc.) with mechanisms that make it easier to kill a boss; as I have said multiple times here and in previous posts, it boils down to what VR allow the use of. VR have already said that they expect people to create and make use of databases and maps and it is fine with them. Therefore, maps are not a cheat. Videos are not a cheat. VR have also said that meters and warnings are not fine with them, therefore as far as Pantheon is concerned, they are cheats.
I hope you can set Kilsin and Aradune straight on what chenzeme VR wants.
chenzeme said:Jobeson: I had parses in all of them. I never once tried to force others to use them.
When ever metersand warnings were available; on joining a raid I have always been asked; "do you have X running?" If I said no, I was told it was a requirement and had to use it, no ifs, no buts. If I didnt use it I had to find another raid. I was forced to use them or go elsewhere.
You don't need to raid with a particular set of people.
Its all very well saying that, but if everyone is using them, you will find it impossible to find enough people who dont use them to make a raid in the first place.
Anecdotal evidence can be dismissed with anecdotal evidence. Your evidence is as worthless as mine. I have never been in a guild that required warnings or meters. As a side note you are trying to force people not to use them per what you said above rather than not caring whether or not they do use them. Would be a first to see someone asking to make sure people are not using parsers rather thans imply not requiring them.
chenzeme said:Basically you have tried to twist, exaggerate and imply incorrect meaning in my post and have not presented any valid counter arguments. To make it clear, in a nut shell, I have said and continue to believe:
1) If numbers and other fight related information are sent to the client, 3rd party apps will be created that give the users of those apps a clear advantage over those that do not use them.
2) If there are 3rd party apps are available, everyone will be forced to use them to stay on a level playing field. To not use them will put youself at a significant disadvantage.
3) If VR say that external software (or hardware) can be used or provide that functionality in-game, then it is not cheating to use such items.
4) If VR say a 3rd party application should not be used, then it is cheating to use such items.
I am not implying anything above and beyond what is stated in those four entries.
You are in a thread pushing for parsers to be banned again and again. You have directly called them cheating. Had your posts been you fully support VR and want them to double down on their position then there would be no misunderstanding. I think it is clear to everyone you are implying something else.
There was a time when I would have agreed to hiding the numbers from the client but after hearing other viewpoints and really thinking about it. It is not the numbers that are bad but what players do with them. If they are pushing to you to do what you do not want to do in a game then you need to move on from that group of players. Numbers can be very helpful and with the right person using them and guiding you. This can help you to become a better player, if you are wanting to improve your game play. If you do not want numbers then don't use mods or built in features that will display them. You are in charge of how you want to play the game. Do not let someone push you into playing a style you do not like.
Jobeson: Your argument seems to be if VR doesn't make their own parser then they shouldn't allow people to have parsers.
Wrong. If VR say it is ok to have parsers, then it is ok. If they say parsers should not be used, then it isnt ok.
Jobeson: It goes against what you are claiming that VR thinks it is a cheat.
Wrong. If VR say it shouldnt be used, then it is a cheat. If VR say it can be used, it is not a cheat.
Jobeson: You are whitelisting third party programs you like while arguing in favor banning parsers, claiming people using a parser is cheating. VR never came out and said it is cheating YOU DID.
Wrong. I havent "white-listed" any parser or application. If VR say they can be used, then it doesnt matter which parser is used. If VR say they cannot be used, no 3rd party parser should be used. None. VR have said they dont want warnings etc in game.
Jobeson: You are in a thread pushing for parsers to be banned again and again.
Wrong, again! If VR say they can be used, then I am happy with that too. VR have said they do not want their use. I am saying to stop their use you must restrict the data sent to the client otherwise you will end up with 3rd party parsers. I am not advocating their use or trying to ban them. I am advocating that people should play within the rules that VR state:
chenzeme: 3) If VR say that external software (or hardware) can be used or provide that functionality in-game, then it is not cheating to use such items.
chenzeme: 4) If VR say a 3rd party application should not be used, then it is cheating to use such items.
At best, you are misrepresenting my posts and in some cases you are just telling plain fakeries. I cannot make my position any clearer than I have, and it certainly is not what you claim it to be. I am not wasting anymore time correcting your distortions.
Kilsin said:Guys lets cool it, please. Until more information is released you can only assume and argue in circles. We will provide more information on damage numbers and parsing as we get closer to releasing the game but until then, please keep it civil and respectful.
On this note I am going back to staying off these forums tell we have an alpha build was checking in more looking for that road map that is comming SOON.
See you when we get to alpha- beta. In tell than its all hot air.