Was just watching the Joppa interview where he adressed pvp and said he did not want it to be about Meters.
I hate that all these mmorpgs now get to be about meters and utilty classses stop using utiltys or get left out of fights because the meters dont show there input. Being a player that was in a smaller guild but 1 and 2 grouping raids planer progression in eq this shows alot yes 36 players with X DPS and Y HPS ok Z number of clerics in the CHeal chain could take down what ever boss. But 6 to 10 players using there class skills could also do the fight. I seen this in EQ2 as well in my raiding guild we had bosses on farm with one dirge he was not the best geared or best dps but he new when to use his spells was fasst on the rez or sticking a mob back on the tank. when we had to sub him out in the main tank group for another Better DPS dirge we got stuck on these same fights time and time agian.
I would like to see them Hide the DPS HPS log info from the client stop the dps hps chase make it about using your resorces wisely not just push 1 2 3 4 5 2 3 5 becuse thats best DPS or HPS or TPS.
I think you are taking his comments specically about PvP out of context and applying them to PvE. Two different arguments.
Unless your saying his comments just sparked your PvE meter thoughts, then all good.
Either way, what you are talking about is a whole other discussion, and one that is brought up and debated frequently.
In every game ever of this variety, the long-run trend will always be the maximization of DPS. This is unavoidable. The only way to truly deal with it is to design encounters that are challenging and require a variety of skill-sets and strategies outside of pure damage abilities (but even then, within these constraints maximum DPS will be sought).
Vixx said:Was just watching the Joppa interview where he adressed pvp and said he did not want it to be about Meters.
I hate that all these mmorpgs now get to be about meters and utilty classses stop using utiltys or get left out of fights because the meters dont show there input.
I would like to see them Hide the DPS HPS log info from the client stop the dps hps chase make it about using your resorces wisely not just push 1 2 3 4 5 2 3 5 becuse thats best DPS or HPS or TPS.
DPS meters and add ons have been discussed to death over the years. Here are a few quotes about VR's stance on this that I looked up in a few minutes. There are many more and I encourage you to look up more info on the topic.
Kilsin said:
we don't want dps meters and aggro meters being installed and linking to the UI for instant "in your face" information, but we will allow combat log parsing like you could do in EQ and VG where combat text is logged in chat and can be saved in a text file for parsing.
Kilsin said:
we will allow UI modifications to a degree (most likely appearance/skins only), but we will do what we can to stop Aggro and DPS meters being used by limiting the information that they require.
A parser is a lot different to an API DPS meter/Aggro meter, you can still log the combat information and pick it apart to better your class and your guilds performance but we won't allow little live meters that do it all for you in game as we believe it takes away from the experience and want to leave something for the players to work out themselves.
Kilsin said:
DPS meter is a visual representation of a small portion of a parser being shown in real time in-game, we will not support anything that shows information in-game like a DPS/Aggro meter.
Aradune said:
The plan is a customizable UI and then being very careful about the data we send to the client so that third party apps that intercept that data won't be very useful.
Because there is a lot of back and forth in those threads. I think community member NoobieDoo deciphered what we are told and gave a fairly accurate definition of what dps meters in Pantheon might play out like in reality:
NoobieDoo said:
The real time parsing data will be done OUTSIDE of the game and then can be displayed within the game via the chat box after a fight. Or possibly during the fight if you want to be a prick and spam the results. But all the info will be handled outside of the game with no possible representation of that info inside the game except a print out that appears inside the chat box.
Basically, if someone wants to monitor everyones DPS in real time they will. It just won't be in game with meters in your UI. It will have to be in a separate window where VR can't regulate it unless they provide less info to the client.
Advanced Combat Tracker already exists and already is a real-time parser. There should be no delusions, if a combat log is made available, real-time DPS information can be made available via 3rd party clients w/ overlays like ACT. We've been doing it that way for almost 15 years.
Agreed Sicario.
If a simple dps meter is that big of a burden to somebody...they need to just find their group of people to play with who either don't use it at all, or just keep it to themselves.
I couldn't begin to tell you the numerous amount of people that I played with that had NO idea I was using a dps meter. I use it for myself to see how I am doing. If I wanted to be a jerk and say this guy or that guy sucks, then I've just given people a reason not to group with me.
In one of those discussions the option to only provide damage numbers for each player (not the rest of the group) was brought up.
That way everyone could only parse themselves. If they want to share that info they can.
I don't see this happening but it is one of the few solutions I've seen mentioned. Otherwise parsing DPS in real time will be standard and, in some circles, expected.
philo said:In one of those discussions the option to only provide damage numbers for each player (not the rest of the group) was brought up.
That way everyone could only parse themselves. If they want to share that info they can.
I don't see this happening but it is one of the few solutions I've seen mentioned. Otherwise parsing DPS in real time will be standard and, in some circles, expected.
As people have said, if the numbers for dps/hps/etc. are sent to the client, meters will definately be created (either in game if allowed or 3rd party apps). If VR want to stop that, the only way is to excluded such numbers from the client data stream (including the player's own numbers). Not sure if people would be happy not knowing how much damage their own spell combinations were doing?
I have used them and not used them and as pointed out above, there are plenty of posts on the subject. I would just pick a guild that plays the same as you and you will be fine. If you raid, I would expect that meters would be required if at all possible. For most other content (except hard boss fights), you dont need them unless you are fine tuning your rotations or you like numbers.
Hoiyay said:
If I can only look at my info then I'm very limited. Its nice to see my own numbers, but I still have no idea if I'm doing well or not. I may think I'm on top of my game pulling my 300 dps. But if somebody else is doing 600 dps, then I'm doing something wrong and would like to know.
It still doesn't fix anything. I'm already seeing how people would just constantly put up their parses in chat after fights to compare with each other.
"Ok, boss is down, post your parses boys!" And everybody post their parses to compare.
The problem still isn't eliminated.
The problem is eliminated. That would very much solve the issue.
What we don't want is people changing what they are doing during the fight, or reacting differently because they recieved extra information while it is happening.
It's like the OP mentioned and the title of this thread. "Hide the numbers from the client". This is not the first time this has been brought up.
All hiding the numbers of other players does is make it so that there is a delay between the damage out put of an individual and when/how that information can be shared. That info will be shared anyway. It might actually have to wait until after most fights are over to process the data instead of on the fly during the fight.
Like Brad said:
Aradune said:
The plan is a customizable UI and then being very careful about the data we send to the client so that third party apps that intercept that data won't be very useful.
I have not heard any plans about them being "careful" like Brad mentioned. It's easy to address the issue and talk about it and say you are going to be "very careful about the data we send to the client" and it's another thing to do it.
@ hoiyay
there is a larger issue here about you producing your maximum damage output and the damage output other people do in real time not affecting that. When you say :
If I can only look at my info then I'm very limited. Its nice to see my own numbers, but I still have no idea if I'm doing well or not. I may think I'm on top of my game pulling my 300 dps. But if somebody else is doing 600 dps, then I'm doing something wrong and would like to know.
That ^ is completely ridiculous. The damage of another player does not determine if you are "doing well or not." It's like they say in golf, play the course not your opponent (maybe that is a bad analogy but I think it gets the point accross?). The point is, the thought process is off.
We can wait 10 mins until the fight is over to process everyones data and make adjustments for the next fight. You don't need instant feedback...but that's what we get if all of the damage info for the group is sent to the client.
...and heal output and every other bit of info that is provided.
Maybe VR doesn't care? Brad's quote above suggests otherwise.
I'm hoping I can just turn off that whole screen altogether. I can tell whether the DPS is doing well enough just based on how fast things die. If I'm on a raid, who cares if it dies in 10 minutes as opposed to 12 minutes; we killed it and got the phat lootz boiz! Either way, I'm just not a huge fan of all that text, but that may just be because I'm not use to it. If I can turn it off, I'll be happy. If I can't....guess what? I'll still be happy because I'll be focusing on the adventure. My personal opinion would just have a chat box and nothing else.
philo said:@ hoiyay
there is a larger issue here about you producing your maximum damage output and the damage output other people do in real time not affecting that. When you say :
If I can only look at my info then I'm very limited. Its nice to see my own numbers, but I still have no idea if I'm doing well or not. I may think I'm on top of my game pulling my 300 dps. But if somebody else is doing 600 dps, then I'm doing something wrong and would like to know.That ^ is completely ridiculous. The damage of another player does not determine if you are "doing well or not." It's like they say in golf, play the course not your opponent (maybe that is a bad analogy but I think it gets the point accross?). The point is, the thought process is off.
That analogy doesn't fit teamwork based games at all. The MMO is not golf. The MMO is a team sport. If you can't even drag yourself up and down the court/field fast enough to stay in the game then you are just dragging your team down. When people point to the parser and say, "why was Philo only auto attacking? Get someone who actually wants to play." You think you can counter with "play the course?"
The parser shows information the game can't display to people well. No MMO has proper feedback for damage. There is no way for me to tell in game how well you are doing. I cant see when you get a good hit. I can't even easily tell if you are just afk. I am 100% against flavor of the month builds being forced to meet parsing quotas. Hell I think respecs are the exact opposite of RP and shouldn't be in the game outside of massive rebalancing / nerfing. There are people who will take parsers as gospel and only care about them to "beat the game." It works, it is sad but it works. That said, comparing your fire wizard DPS to another fire wizard DPS or even just your usual fire wizard DPS is all fair.
I mentioned it was probably a bad analogy lol. Ya, i know. The point was the thought process was off. Not that mmos and golf were the same lol.
We don't seem to be talking about the same thing. Of course people will compare data, that isn't the issue. The issue is when the information is available in real time so players change their play because of it. That is completely hand holdy...and can end up being a serious issue over time.
Why do you think :
There is no way for me to tell in game how well you are doing. I cant see when you get a good hit.
You can absolutely monitor your group members output. Why do you think ^ that?
A parser doesn't tell you anything new, it just takes the info that is already available and breaks it down.
If that was true and you actually couldn't see how well others are doing the problem would be solved.
If damage is displayed in anyway during combat .. you will have a real time parse regardless of opinion or if anyone wants it or not.
This also includes a mobs emotes , timers , and or audio triggers etc if it is displayed in anyway , shape or form during combat it will be done and available before beta is even finished.
As someone said before ACT is a seperate entity from the game , with a overlay.
I will even be able to tell you exactly what rotation is being used and exactly how long it takes you to click a button.
I think even trying to make a policy for such a thing is a waste of time.
If you suck in comparison on the parse , you will be removed and excluded regardless if someone posts it or not due to poor game play.
At least with the data being available , I can perhaps help you with improvement and or we can discuss what the issue is, either way the ability to see the information will happen.
Sicario said:In every game ever of this variety, the long-run trend will always be the maximization of DPS. This is unavoidable. The only way to truly deal with it is to design encounters that are challenging and require a variety of skill-sets and strategies outside of pure damage abilities (but even then, within these constraints maximum DPS will be sought).
Yup, and it's unavoidable too, plus now most players that are good at DPS are usually also better mechanically now as well, so now the whole he sucks at this but great at that kind of thing doesn't really exsist anymore. Which is why in a long time they havent made a pure buffing class is a long time like bard in EQ, granted they can do damage, but they are known for their buffs and ultility, and as such MMO's like WoW, and faster pace MMO's don't make them, for one they would be useless in Mythic's but probably Over Powered in Raids, due to the nature of how the two are different.
So yes a lot of people will look at DPS, people will see if Tanks are using their CD's correctly and preventing damage, Looking into Healers and making sure they are not Overhealing their butt off for no good reason. This will happen if you're going to frustrated over somethign small like this than I honestly don't know what you expect to happen, people aren't just going to keep smashing their face into a wall just becuase you have 1 or 2 people clueless, or lack of damage and it's preventing you from getting a kill.
My issue is not with excluding anyone.
It's about hand holding, easy mode and not playing the game "as intended" where you are watching a screen and it tells you the best time to press what buttons. That still happens through 3rd party programs.
...and then I'm sure we have all seen it become a larger issue when it becomes so widely used that devs start designing around it...
But if you don't provide all of that info to the client its not possible ...
Bad players will out them self with out parse rotian helpers and such I just dont want to see a game where DPS is king and utility it gone. or like wow where its just 3rd party apps for every thing and the devs balance for them being used.
The meta or nothing builds ext that come when we can see every bit of damage and know that this build is 500dps so if the other choice is 498 dps its crap.
Lets have a game where we play it as the devs made it. Not Cheat with a bunch a 3rd party software running in the background
I dont want to have to download stuff from 3rd partys that could have who knows what in the code Just to play a game.
@Vixx @philo
I get your point and I feel there's merrit to it. I just don't think we should be equating DPS meters/parsing software with third party addons that flash your next best ability on the screen or call out mechanics. Using WoW as an example Deadly Boss Mods and Big Wigs are two popular addons that call out raid mechanics - they advise of incomming mechanics and help you coordinate. I believe today we see the WoW dev team designing encounters assuming that the majority of raiders are using these addons. Many mythic (and even heroic) fights have become so complicated you almost have to use these addons which puts a ton of pressure on people who just want to play without them. I believe this is a case of addons leading design decisions and I think that's not always a good thing -if an addon ever becomes as ubiquitous or the community perception is that it's mandatory then the developers should put that functionality in the game rather than relying on a third party to do so.
In terms of rotational helper addons I can agree that it's borderline game automation but to be fair it can be very difficult for some people to learn simply by watching a video or reading a written guide. Let's be honest it's not as optimal as knowing your rotation well - which only comes through time and practice. In the end most players would do better removing the training wheels at some point. On of my friends that switched from beast master to marksman was really struggling so I suggested an addon like this to him. He really learned a lot - for example he wasn't using his racial ability on cooldown and didn't even have some abiltiies on his action bar because he was overwhelmed by keybinds. It's really hard to help someone with their rotation and class if you don't know the starting point of their knowledge and what areas they can improve.
Neither of these things have to deal with DPS meters and combat log parsers though. DPS meters are just informative they don't advise of upcoming mechanics or help you with your rotation by flashing the optimal abilities on your screen. They just report on what you're doing and what you've already done. I don't think having this information in bad - it is actually extremely helpful. Like any tool it can be used for good or evil. When it's used to for good it's an ESSENTIAL tool players need to improve. When used for evil it can cause a lot of unecessary confrontation in groups - especially in more casual content.
Lets be honest here even in VR decided to prevent logs from being written to your hard drive somehow people would still find a way to access this data with packet sniffers or something like that. Combat parsers are always going to be a thing.
I believe the Pantheon community WILL be different - there are a lot of smart players here that understand in this type of game DPS doesn't tell the entire story especially with content requires liberal use of crowd control and party support abilities. The more strategic combat, with a slower pace, will also allow breathing room for players who aren't practicing ABC (always be casting) on a .8 second global cooldown. I don't think the difference between a player with 99% activity time vs. 80% activity time will be as drastically noticeable as it is in games like WoW.
Its easy to worry about stuff like this due to the current state of MMOs but I think the Pantheon community is smarter and more mature. I don't think your going to see the hyper-dps-focused go go go mentality of other games here. We're going to see a combat flow that allows us to breathe and have meaningful social interactions. Frankly I don't care if Carl is doing 20% less damage than could have if he's contributing meaningfully and more importantly a nice person I would like to continue to group with.
@Valdora I dont want another ABC it ruins the RPG of a game Mana managment in eq and vangaurd made you think about what to cast and when allowed time to send tells between casts it was never a race to the end of the dungeon. your FPS faster faster players where 00M and the bane of the group.
DPS meters don't change how the content was designed or how it has to be engaged. If VR creates content that requires strategic choice ability, CC, or other utility abilities/spells, the existence of a DPS meter doesn't negate those things. You're still going to have to properly strategize and properly use CC/utility. If high group-DPS optimization trivializes content, then that's just a flaw in the design.