Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Hide the numbers from the client

    • 2752 posts
    January 15, 2021 12:49 PM PST

    Sicario said:

    DPS meters don't change how the content was designed or how it has to be engaged. If VR creates content that requires strategic choice ability, CC, or other utility abilities/spells, the existence of a DPS meter doesn't negate those things. You're still going to have to properly strategize and properly use CC/utility. If high group-DPS optimization trivializes content, then that's just a flaw in the design.

    For static/guild/friend groups possibly. But groups with strangers or full PUGs? Absolutely not.

    The game should be much harder than that. Each different group composition, player character level, skill of each player, mob type and disposition, etc should have a notable effect on how things work out in a group and especially how the DPS goes. If this game is so simple like most modern MMOs that tanks have no issues maintaining threat and DPS just hammer the mob pushing their meters then this will be a sad game. Threat should be something the group works together to manage, DPS working with other members to find windows to push their damage but otherwise finding the flow of their tank based on what their gear/skill levels are so that they can skirt just under the threat the tank can manage. DPS focusing on pushing their own numbers and chasing meters should be mopped up by mobs. 

    • 1860 posts
    January 15, 2021 1:10 PM PST

    It's about so much more than DPS meters.  Sure that is part of it, but that is just the tip of the iceburg. 

    To me meters aren't nearly as big of an issue as some of the other gameplay aides.

    • 56 posts
    January 15, 2021 1:29 PM PST
    @philo

    This thread is titled "hide the numbers from the client" so I think we were just trying to keep the conversation on track. It sounds like there are some players who do not care to know how they or their team are performing - I surmise it's because they dont want a culture of exclusion by the numbers like so many other MMO communities.

    I don't want to confuse combat parses and DPS meters with other third party addons. ACT for example is third party software that operates outside of the client and does not access the games API where as popular DPS meters like recount, skada, and details do use the games API.

    DPS meters in general just report data - they do not directly aid in your rotation or advise of incoming mechanics they're a reporting tool.

    Just want to make sure we're keeping the conversation regarding if players should have access to the raw data and not about are third party addons, in general, a good thing.
    • 18 posts
    January 15, 2021 1:34 PM PST

    If it's anything like Everquest was back in the day, you were able to simply right click your window and select what types of data you wanted to see in your bar.  If you wanted to see combat data, it would show it.  If you just wanted to see direct messages or chat in the General Chat channel, you could do that too.  It was a pretty intuitive "Select what you want" type of system and I loved it.  I maintained separate windows / tabs for the data I wanted to capture.  That's another thing too, you were able to add tabs...so you can record combat data but not have to see it in your focused tab in the chat box.

    • 56 posts
    January 15, 2021 1:37 PM PST
    Sorry for double post but my argument in general is that in a social oriented mmo the devs should only step in and police when absolutely necessary. If a culture of DPS oriented fanatics developes in your play group or guild (which I don't think will happen in Pantheon) then that's a topic we should resolve amongst ourselves as players. These interpersonal problems shouldn't be the responsibility of the developers to tackle unless there are extreme cases of abuse. Of course they will influence the culture through their game design - which is ultimately why I think this will be a non-issue because the game isn't being designed to hyper accentuate the importance of DPS above everything else.

    I also do not think we should bury our heads in the sand and ignore numbers or ask for those numbers to be hard/impossible to access. Information and the tools to parse and interpret the information are extremely important for bettering oneself in an MMO where our combat inputs and everything we do is constantly being change to number at a rapid pace. It would be impossible just to feel things out.
    • 18 posts
    January 15, 2021 1:40 PM PST

    I think I'm agreeing with what you said @Valdora, in a way.  Just provide the data and the options to toggle what you do or don't want to see and let the players sort it out.  If they give access to create non-macro based add-ons or ui mods using that data, then those players that want to see it can, and those of us who'd rather just play and enjoy ourselves without number crunching, can do that too.  No moderation needed in that case.

    • 56 posts
    January 15, 2021 1:52 PM PST
    @Luniss agreed. We have to understand that there are minds out there that really enjoy the numbers and theorycrafting. Those players tend to be really passionate and helpful within the community.

    There are also players that enjoy lore, environment, the "feel" of gameplay, social aspects, crafting, etc. And none of these are mutually exclusive. Which is why I think its selfish handicap or hinder someone who really enjoys the game in a different way than you do.

    I have faith that the game is being developed in a way where community is central to everything we do. If you find yourself in a community whose values dont match your own work to change it or move on. Reputation will matter in pantheon and once players realize this I dont think they will treat others as poorly as they currently do in other games.
    • 1479 posts
    January 15, 2021 2:22 PM PST

    Luniss said:

    I think I'm agreeing with what you said @Valdora, in a way.  Just provide the data and the options to toggle what you do or don't want to see and let the players sort it out.  If they give access to create non-macro based add-ons or ui mods using that data, then those players that want to see it can, and those of us who'd rather just play and enjoy ourselves without number crunching, can do that too.  No moderation needed in that case.

     

    While beeing very optimistic, no one can force players to change their mentality and no one can stop things to spread. If everything can be accessed with relative ease, it will be the norm, wether players or community want it to be different because it makes the game easier and the odds of success better. Things like "community will sort it out" don't work in an environment where you have no grasp over players unfortunately.

    • 1860 posts
    January 15, 2021 2:44 PM PST

    Valdora said:  If a culture of DPS oriented fanatics developes in your play group or guild (which I don't think will happen in Pantheon) then that's a topic we should resolve amongst ourselves as players.

    That's exactly what this is.  There is a large wow crowd here who views these as standard.  Just because they are regulated to 3rd party applications doesn't change the bottom line.

    If all of the data is sent to the client the only solution is to be ok with it and use these outside apps like the majority of the community.

    ...eventually the devs will be forced to design around it because they can't stop it...


    This post was edited by philo at January 15, 2021 2:51 PM PST
    • 2419 posts
    January 15, 2021 2:56 PM PST

    Do you know what a complete combat stream also accomplishes?  It keeps the developers honest about their algorithms.  When the playerbase can analyze the combat, we can call out error, bugs, mistakes or outright lies with recorded facts. Who finds the most unbalanced items, broken items, monetory exploits, etc?  Not the developers, that's for damn sure. Its the observant playerbase.  Keeping that information hidden from us lets the developer hide behind lies, half truths and misinformation.

     

    Mod Edit: Removed #$%@#^@ as it is unnecessary and is a borderline guideline breach (trying to bypass the profanity filter). 


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 21, 2021 3:37 AM PST
    • 56 posts
    January 15, 2021 6:17 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Luniss said:

    I think I'm agreeing with what you said @Valdora, in a way.  Just provide the data and the options to toggle what you do or don't want to see and let the players sort it out.  If they give access to create non-macro based add-ons or ui mods using that data, then those players that want to see it can, and those of us who'd rather just play and enjoy ourselves without number crunching, can do that too.  No moderation needed in that case.

     

    While beeing very optimistic, no one can force players to change their mentality and no one can stop things to spread. If everything can be accessed with relative ease, it will be the norm, wether players or community want it to be different because it makes the game easier and the odds of success better. Things like "community will sort it out" don't work in an environment where you have no grasp over players unfortunately.

     

    There's direct control and then there's indirect control. I'm not saying the developers should not indirectly control this through the use of intelligent and thoughtful design but I am extremely tired of everyone relying on an authority figure to step in an manage their interpersonal issues. This is something each and everyone of us passionate about the game has control over. You set the tone of your groups and guilds and either tolerate or do not tolerate behaviors with the people you play with.

     

    Modern MMOs have removed accountability and have designed environments where no one gives a crap about who they piss off or offend. Pantheon is being designed in a way were your personal reputation and your guild/groups reputation is extremely important. You won't have to group with rude, cruel and uncaring people. We'll have to give some people time to adjust to a more community focused game but you best believe when people are held accountability and their reputation actually matters they won't be treating other players like they're trash. I predict you'll see a much more patient and helpful community develope in pantheon. There is always going to be the "elitist jerks" but you won't be forced into groups with them like other games.

     

    I think this concept is hard for people coming from modern MMOs to understand and I'm willing to admit maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I strongly encourage everyone to see what onfolds before they start asking for solutions to problems we don't know will ever exist in the first place.

    • 52 posts
    January 16, 2021 3:24 AM PST
    I just want to be able to play 5 characters at the same time and be left alone. Meters usually just get in my way.
    • 115 posts
    January 16, 2021 9:35 AM PST

    OK so its a bad idea  just popped in my head when I was watching the video. 

    I hope pantheom will not have this problem  but i was seeing it some on Aradune. many groups insting on having a chanter charm pet or nothing.

    It is toxic from what I have seen playing threw shadowland story I have left LFG dungeons because of it. Thankfully I was not the target but I was not going to just watch.

     

    • 2752 posts
    January 16, 2021 12:13 PM PST

    Valdora said:

    I'm willing to admit maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

    Definitely this.

     

    Reputation is an illusion that doesn't matter too much anymore, it isn't just a modern MMO thing. The rise of guilds, friend groups, gaming communities, etc all allow individuals within them to exist and act however they want without need to worry about the community at large. Also in a game like Pantheon you are more likely to feel the need to put up with less desirable individuals due to the fact it will be some degree harder to travel around and otherwise find another group, certainly not as simple as clicking a find group button and being teleported away.


    This post was edited by Iksar at January 16, 2021 12:13 PM PST
    • 332 posts
    January 16, 2021 8:21 PM PST

    Vixx said:

    OK so its a bad idea  just popped in my head when I was watching the video. 

    I hope pantheom will not have this problem  but i was seeing it some on Aradune. many groups insting on having a chanter charm pet or nothing.

    It is toxic from what I have seen playing threw shadowland story I have left LFG dungeons because of it. Thankfully I was not the target but I was not going to just watch.

     

     

    Trying to compare a broken game (eq) and even worse a TLE to something we have not played is silly at best.

    You realize there is more then 5 - 6 expansions for EQ correct ?

    Also that entire mentality changes after LDON unless you enjoy rerolling and playing the same rehashed content for 20 + years.

     


    This post was edited by Xxar at January 16, 2021 8:25 PM PST
    • 287 posts
    January 18, 2021 10:03 AM PST

    As a hardcore raider, min-maxer, all that stuff, I absolutely hate DPS meters and, to a lesser extent, healing meters.  Others such as threat meters I don't see as a big problem but EQ proved we don't need them.

    Meters, particularly DPS meters, turn players selfish and they won't use non-DPS abilities to aid the raid because "ohmahgurd mah numberz!!1!".  As a raid leader it was frustrating to no end to fail because nobody would use clutch abilities to save the fight and then whoever topped the meter would still brag about their DPS, spamming chat with parses.

    Despite several claims in this thread there are a lot of things VR can do to put a stop to this.  They could send the target's current health as a percentage instead of a total and never reveal how many hitpoints the target has.  They could do this periodically rather than for every ability use which would eliminate individual stats and show only raid stats and probably also reduce network traffic.  They could also delay the log data so packet inspection is the only possible way to see real-time data, something they could ban in the ToS (some would still do it but they risk getting banned from the game).  

    They could also remove damage and heal stats from abilities and just describe the output in general terms.  Let players discover for themselves whether an ability is effective and stop giving us hard numbers.

    In EQ we learned by raw feel how effective an ability was, we "knew" by feel how close to pulling aggro we were, we kept track of timers (for things like stuns and crowd control) by feel.  We didn't have or need all these on-screen timers, meters, or other visual cues to do our jobs effectively.  If PRotF is supposed to be EQ's spiritual successor then why not bring all of that back?  It was much more fun than watching a screen filled up with meters and worrying more about topping them than being an effective raid member.  If it is at all possible to create a meter in the game even as a 3rd party tool then those meters will exist and raiders will be expected to use them.  Just avoid the problem altogether by not sending the data necessary to allow them to work.

    • 115 posts
    January 19, 2021 7:20 AM PST

    Akilae said:

    As a hardcore raider, min-maxer, all that stuff, I absolutely hate DPS meters and, to a lesser extent, healing meters.  Others such as threat meters I don't see as a big problem but EQ proved we don't need them.

    Meters, particularly DPS meters, turn players selfish and they won't use non-DPS abilities to aid the raid because "ohmahgurd mah numberz!!1!".  As a raid leader it was frustrating to no end to fail because nobody would use clutch abilities to save the fight and then whoever topped the meter would still brag about their DPS, spamming chat with parses.

    Despite several claims in this thread there are a lot of things VR can do to put a stop to this.  They could send the target's current health as a percentage instead of a total and never reveal how many hitpoints the target has.  They could do this periodically rather than for every ability use which would eliminate individual stats and show only raid stats and probably also reduce network traffic.  They could also delay the log data so packet inspection is the only possible way to see real-time data, something they could ban in the ToS (some would still do it but they risk getting banned from the game).  

    They could also remove damage and heal stats from abilities and just describe the output in general terms.  Let players discover for themselves whether an ability is effective and stop giving us hard numbers.

    In EQ we learned by raw feel how effective an ability was, we "knew" by feel how close to pulling aggro we were, we kept track of timers (for things like stuns and crowd control) by feel.  We didn't have or need all these on-screen timers, meters, or other visual cues to do our jobs effectively.  If PRotF is supposed to be EQ's spiritual successor then why not bring all of that back?  It was much more fun than watching a screen filled up with meters and worrying more about topping them than being an effective raid member.  If it is at all possible to create a meter in the game even as a 3rd party tool then those meters will exist and raiders will be expected to use them.  Just avoid the problem altogether by not sending the data necessary to allow them to work.

    THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY. 

    I feel the same both my eq guild joined rading in PoP and stopped  just before TSS we never ran any ad ons some guild offices would look at logs after raids and if some one needed help we would get them in a group and work with them.

    In eq2 ACT started to come in to my guild any way around Kunark  but heck we where giving up 6+ slots a raid to alts and mythic carries the numbers really ment nothing. 

    • 902 posts
    January 19, 2021 9:15 AM PST

    Valdora: ...I think this concept is hard for people coming from modern MMOs to understand and I'm willing to admit maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I strongly encourage everyone to see what onfolds before they start asking for solutions to problems we don't know will ever exist in the first place.

    Any platform (game or social for that matter) has to take their user's accountability seriously. It really is not good enough this day and age for a developer to say we are providing the machine; it is down to the users how they use it and assume that everything will be alright. Without putting plans and procedures into place is asking for trouble. You must anticipate and negate as much as you realistically can within the resources you have.

    If VR provide data that can be used to simplify the game, then it will be used to that effect. Once people start using that data, then everyone will have to use it so that they can remain competitive. This has happened over and over. The more data provided client side, the easier it will be for people to modify their gaming experience in their favour and you end up making the game easier to progress and it is no longer the game that the designers wanted.

    From what I can see, there is only a limited number of things you can do to when talking about gameplay meters. Data either has to be restricted or obscured, or you provide in game meters or you allow third party products.

    If the goal is to stop 3rd party products, then restricting the data values is probably the easiest thing to implement. Personally, I would be happier without the exact measures and rely on what I can see as I play. Instead of "You deal 432 blunt damage" it should be "Your mace does significant damage" or "You deal piercing 4" could be "Your dagger is deflected and deals very little damage". That way you can still see what combinations produce better results without knowing exactly how much damage was done. You would still need to send some figures sent to clients, such as the 8.3% (or just 8% come to that) left on a mob's health bar, but you dont need to know it has 48 health out of 576 left to actually play the game.

    Obscuring the data would mean a real time overhead of "coding" and "decoding" the data values. This coding can of course be broken, so some mechanism would also be required to change the coding system as and when that happens. Whether it is acceptable in terms of game performance is another issue.

    Or meters are a part of the game.

     


    This post was edited by chenzeme at January 19, 2021 9:17 AM PST
    • 88 posts
    January 19, 2021 9:58 AM PST

    I don't want to see DPS and Threat meters..it has a really negative impact on individual playstyle because it encourages set "optimal" dps rotations, which in turn can lead to negativity and toxicity in groups.  In my mind this game will succeed or fail in large part due to the player community and how much fun they make the persistent game world for others.  A large part of the responsibility lays with us to ensure we do all we can to allow other players individuality as much as possible.

    • 334 posts
    January 19, 2021 12:59 PM PST

    You'd be surprised how easy it is for objectively bad players to sneak by without DPS meters to identify them. They might think they're doing well, they'd protest if you think it might be them who's underperforming and bring it up, and you wouldn't really be able to know if the wizard or the rogue is the one not doing the damage you'd expect from them unless you've played with one of them a long time. With or without DPS meters, there will be toxic players and toxic guilds and toxic groups. DPS meters, when used and looked at with a reasonable perspective, can be quite illuminating and educational.

    • 56 posts
    January 19, 2021 1:20 PM PST

    Sicario said:

    You'd be surprised how easy it is for objectively bad players to sneak by without DPS meters to identify them. They might think they're doing well, they'd protest if you think it might be them who's underperforming and bring it up, and you wouldn't really be able to know if the wizard or the rogue is the one not doing the damage you'd expect from them unless you've played with one of them a long time. With or without DPS meters, there will be toxic players and toxic guilds and toxic groups. DPS meters, when used and looked at with a reasonable perspective, can be quite illuminating and educational.

     

    Agreed - which in itself is another type of toxic behavior. Asking other people to pull you through the content while you watch Netflix on another screen. Feeling entitled to see the hardest content and receive the best rewards even though you're not contributing to the group in a meaningful way. 

     

    I think toxic behavior is a symptom of bad game design decisions. I believe Pantheon will be making the correct decisions when it comes to community and the social pillars of the game. I think people will still and should be held accountable for their performance but I don't think the community will be as toxic or harsh in Pantheon.

     

    The game is being designed from the ground up to emphasis community and collaboration so I think there will be people willing to take the time to coach and help players - especially if you're not thrown into a instant dungeon queue and it took a little time and effort to form your party. You're going to be less likely to kick someone if finding a replacement takes time.

     

    I also think negative social pressures can be a good thing if it makes someone change their bad behaviors. If you're having trouble finding people who want to play with you because you consistently dont make an effort to contribute to the teams you're in - maybe there should be some tension for the player that leads to a positive change. Pushing someone to learn and grow may start out rocky but those types if interpersonal dramas we have to sort our with our groups and guilds. 

     

    I really hate people wanting to give up their agency and turn to a higher power to police behavior. Its needed in some extreme cases of abuse but I dont think the devs or GMs should be seen as parental figures that have to regulate all our social interactions because we're incapable of having awkward or difficult conversations. 

     

    I say let VR design a game and through that design set the tone - it's up to us to deal with the toxic elements in the community. Having access DPS meters doesnt trivialize content or cause the toxic behavior by itself. The community is player driven not data driven.

    • 56 posts
    January 19, 2021 1:35 PM PST

    chenzeme said:

    Valdora: ...I think this concept is hard for people coming from modern MMOs to understand and I'm willing to admit maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I strongly encourage everyone to see what onfolds before they start asking for solutions to problems we don't know will ever exist in the first place.

    Any platform (game or social for that matter) has to take their user's accountability seriously. It really is not good enough this day and age for a developer to say we are providing the machine; it is down to the users how they use it and assume that everything will be alright. Without putting plans and procedures into place is asking for trouble. You must anticipate and negate as much as you realistically can within the resources you have.

    If VR provide data that can be used to simplify the game, then it will be used to that effect. Once people start using that data, then everyone will have to use it so that they can remain competitive. This has happened over and over. The more data provided client side, the easier it will be for people to modify their gaming experience in their favour and you end up making the game easier to progress and it is no longer the game that the designers wanted.

    From what I can see, there is only a limited number of things you can do to when talking about gameplay meters. Data either has to be restricted or obscured, or you provide in game meters or you allow third party products.

    If the goal is to stop 3rd party products, then restricting the data values is probably the easiest thing to implement. Personally, I would be happier without the exact measures and rely on what I can see as I play. Instead of "You deal 432 blunt damage" it should be "Your mace does significant damage" or "You deal piercing 4" could be "Your dagger is deflected and deals very little damage". That way you can still see what combinations produce better results without knowing exactly how much damage was done. You would still need to send some figures sent to clients, such as the 8.3% (or just 8% come to that) left on a mob's health bar, but you dont need to know it has 48 health out of 576 left to actually play the game.

    Obscuring the data would mean a real time overhead of "coding" and "decoding" the data values. This coding can of course be broken, so some mechanism would also be required to change the coding system as and when that happens. Whether it is acceptable in terms of game performance is another issue.

    Or meters are a part of the game.

     

     

    The problem with this approach is not everyone enjoys video games in the same way you do. Some players love theorycrafting and all the numbers. Players love changing the inputs and seeing how it modifies the output. You cannot be so afraid you >might< create a negative social interaction for >some< people and totally destroy and engaging and interesting part of the game for other people. 

     

    I get it - being excluded sucks. Being told you're not doing as well as you could hurts. There will always be that one guy drawing the wrong conclusions from the data. It's easy to focus on DPS and ignore interrupts, deaths, CC, healing done, not to mention things you can't track as easily like utility. If this was a single player game it wouldn't matter but groups rely on each other and their efforts of their team mates. We cant be so afraid to have difficult conversation and tense moments with our groups that we avoid all difficult conversations. It honestly feels like some people are trying to create a safe space where no ones feelings ever get hurt and they can't be held accountable for their performance.


    This post was edited by Valdora at January 19, 2021 1:36 PM PST
    • 1281 posts
    January 19, 2021 2:23 PM PST

    Akilae said:

    As a hardcore raider, min-maxer, all that stuff, I absolutely hate DPS meters and, to a lesser extent, healing meters.  Others such as threat meters I don't see as a big problem but EQ proved we don't need them.

    Meters, particularly DPS meters, turn players selfish and they won't use non-DPS abilities to aid the raid because "ohmahgurd mah numberz!!1!".  As a raid leader it was frustrating to no end to fail because nobody would use clutch abilities to save the fight and then whoever topped the meter would still brag about their DPS, spamming chat with parses.

    Despite several claims in this thread there are a lot of things VR can do to put a stop to this.  They could send the target's current health as a percentage instead of a total and never reveal how many hitpoints the target has.  They could do this periodically rather than for every ability use which would eliminate individual stats and show only raid stats and probably also reduce network traffic.  They could also delay the log data so packet inspection is the only possible way to see real-time data, something they could ban in the ToS (some would still do it but they risk getting banned from the game).  

    They could also remove damage and heal stats from abilities and just describe the output in general terms.  Let players discover for themselves whether an ability is effective and stop giving us hard numbers.

    In EQ we learned by raw feel how effective an ability was, we "knew" by feel how close to pulling aggro we were, we kept track of timers (for things like stuns and crowd control) by feel.  We didn't have or need all these on-screen timers, meters, or other visual cues to do our jobs effectively.  If PRotF is supposed to be EQ's spiritual successor then why not bring all of that back?  It was much more fun than watching a screen filled up with meters and worrying more about topping them than being an effective raid member.  If it is at all possible to create a meter in the game even as a 3rd party tool then those meters will exist and raiders will be expected to use them.  Just avoid the problem altogether by not sending the data necessary to allow them to work.

    This....

    It completely kills the "utility" part of "utility classes" if they're afraid to use those "utility" abilities because "Your numbers are low you slacker!!  Learn how to play your class!!".  For instance, Rogues are one of the high DPS classes.  HOWEVER....  They also have crowd control utility as well as other things.  If a Rogue's going to get "yelled at" for not burning down a mob with DPS because he's helping with crowd control, do you REALLY think that he is going to do it?  No.  He's going to stand there and poke it from behind and nothing else.

    As already stated....  Raw DPS numbers don't tell the WHOLE store and yet far too may people follow the "DPS is king!!" mantra and penalize people for doing the "utility" part of their class.

    I get how DPS meters can help you to become more efficient....  It's not ALWAYS about efficiency.  Far too many people that don't play a particular class think they're an expert at all classes because they can parse a DPS meter and think that that is the be-all end-all of how to play a class.  It's not.  Ever.  There is FAR more to playing a class than just raw damage.

    • 2756 posts
    January 19, 2021 4:11 PM PST

    There's a fundamental user interface 'thing' at play here too, beyond meters.

    In real life, if you were to swing a sword at something, you would know if you hit, you would know if it were a solid or glancing blow, you would probably have a good idea of what you were hitting and how it should behave, you would have a good idea how much punishment that thing should take before being destroyed, etc.

    In a game, you have almost nothing like that. You have animations and UI feedback.  Without the 'numbers', to get a UI to give anything like enough information to be an analog for physical combat, would be nigh impossible.

    To be clear, I would love to lose the numbers and the meters and have a more 'immersive' combat UI, but immersion isn't just damaged by seeing 'under the hood' it is damaged by not getting enough feedback at all so you can't appreciate what is going on.

    Without 'numbers' how do you relate to the player what is happening? Are you hitting? Missing? Glancing blow? Being dodged? Hit, but mitigated? Absorbed? Blocked? Resisted? Etc, etc.

    I know there are some sound and graphic cues that can be used, but, in even a simple combat, there will be too much going on for that to give any decent impression of what it happening.

    A Dungeons and Dragons dungeon master could say,

    "Your longsword swing aimed true and strong for the orc's head, but it dodged well and you glanced a blow off his helmet. You did nick his ear, though, and your blade poison appears to be having some limited effect. Your attack and fast poison would have been enough to subdue a normal orc. This one is clearly something of an exception in toughness and speed. You're going to have to double your expected efforts!".

    I would *love* to see that kind of info from a computer RPG game. Maybe Pantheon could make the combat UI messages more 'human language' and less numbers?...

    • 690 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:51 AM PST

    Like it or not guys, the biggest, most accomplished guilds will find ways to turn you into functional chess pieces. No matter what you do or how hard you make it for them.

    If you don't like it, strive to join more casual guilds and make friends with other guilds so you can still do end game content.