BeaverBiscuit: Like it or not guys, the biggest, most accomplished guilds will find ways to turn you into functional chess pieces. No matter what you do or how hard you make it for them.
Maybe, but you shouldn't make it easy for them either. If they dont have the data, they cannot create accurate meters. Simple as that really.
disposalist: ...Without the 'numbers', to get a UI to give anything like enough information to be an analog for physical combat, would be nigh impossible.
I really don't agree with this. You cannot say you did x amount of damage in real life either. You wouldn't know how much "life" they have left, only that they are irreparably damaged and bleeding and not moving freely and I would argue that you can represent this without numbers.
disposalist: I would *love* to see that kind of info from a computer RPG game. Maybe Pantheon could make the combat UI messages more 'human language' and less numbers?...
Me too!
Kalok: As already stated.... Raw DPS numbers don't tell the WHOLE store and yet far too may people follow the "DPS is king!!" mantra and penalize people for doing the "utility" part of their class.
Agreed. If there are no numbers then utility would mean more.
Valdora: The problem with this approach is not everyone enjoys video games in the same way you do. Some players love theorycrafting and all the numbers. Players love changing the inputs and seeing how it modifies the output. You cannot be so afraid you >might< create a negative social interaction for >some< people and totally destroy and engaging and interesting part of the game for other people.
Its a bit condescending to say that someone is afraid of negative social interaction because they dont want a particular system in play that the game itself has not implemented. The argument is whether it detracts from the fun of the game or not. Yes some people like the numbers and some dont. When you say "for >some< people and totally destroy and engaging and interesting part of the game", you have to remember, that for >some others< the meters themselves destroy the engaging game play because you are looking at numbers and not what the developers intended; the game UI and field of view! The argument; not everyone enjoys the game as I do, can be levelled at numbers too! Not everyone enjoys them either. To be honest, this argument is lacking on both sides.
The problem with the meters approach is that everyone is expected to use them regardless of whether they want to or not, especially if you need to raid for advancement. In my eyes, it is worth the sacrifice of a few that like parsing number so that the many are not forced to use meters. I have played many mmo with and without meters. With them I always parsed at or near the top, and in your words, I never got negative social feedback because I learned my class and didn't freeload. I learned by experimentation and observing and asking other players how they how they handled situations, not by examining tables. I would argue that this method is much more social too.
When you are expected to watch meters rather than the game play, then for me, the engaging and interesting part of the game is destroyed.
I have to agree that third party applications that track absolutely everything ingame..and forces others to put those applications on their machines in order to "keep up" destroys the enjoyment of the game for others who just want to pit themselves against the game and not foreign applications. Having to watch those instead of paying attention to the game..and having those applications plastered all over my field of vision...makes the whole thing mechanical and annoying. How much dps am I doing...did I beat the other wizard in dps? Not my cup of tea, if we are in a raid I want to pay attention to the actual goal and not all the numbers flying across my field of vision. If I wanted to play with a calculator and some sort of math application I would do that. That's not what I play online games for. Let's hope VR doesn't allow people access to server information and doesn't allow third party applications. Let's play the game the way VR and Brad McQuaid meant it to be played ..with REAL challenge and not artificial boosts.
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:I have to agree that third party applications that track absolutely everything ingame..and forces others to put those applications on their machines in order to "keep up" destroys the enjoyment of the game for others who just want to pit themselves against the game and not foreign applications. Having to watch those instead of paying attention to the game..and having those applications plastered all over my field of vision...makes the whole thing mechanical and annoying. How much dps am I doing...did I beat the other wizard in dps? Not my cup of tea, if we are in a raid I want to pay attention to the actual goal and not all the numbers flying across my field of vision. If I wanted to play with a calculator and some sort of math application I would do that. That's not what I play online games for. Let's hope VR doesn't allow people access to server information and doesn't allow third party applications. Let's play the game the way VR and Brad McQuaid meant it to be played ..with REAL challenge and not artificial boosts.
Cana
I do agree, and have to disagree too Canadina, you been a long time supporter as i have. Right from 22 yrs of EQ for me, and massive accounts and characters. However i agree its awesome to just beat content with your friends. However i have to disagree today, because its about performance for me. I would like to know if i am doing better with XYZ items over YZX item. I personally would like my friends, and guild members to parse me to know for sure. It may cause friction with the people you know but if they are doing 5000 damage and we are doing 500,000 damage shouldnt we know? Since we keep losing to that boss mob. Maybe there is something we can talk about. Leaving that option closed to some guilds isnt a great recourse since they may want to use it. It also boils down to 2 things, 1 hardcore vrs casual players. So i can only debate on that level.
Crazzie: ... but if they are doing 5000 damage and we are doing 500,000 damage shouldnt we know? Since we keep losing to that boss mob.
This has been adressed by other messages in this thread but I dont mind recovering it. It is never as simple as matching two characters' DPS for a whole variety of reasons:
My point is that relying on numbers is never the whole story, and you get into the mind set that you need to be at the top of the meters and it is ok to take a hit and rely on an unessassary heal than move out of the way and lose dps, or worse and rely on someone else to activate a mechanic when it should be your responsibility.
Meters are used for vanity as much as finding freeloaders and very rarely tell the whole story. Pointing out that ranger 2 is way down on ranger 1 might feel good for ranger 1, but it doesnt mean ranger 1 is the best player or doing what they should be. There are different kinds of freeloading and doing dps over anything else you are supposed to be doing is one of them.
Just because you lose to a boss, does not mean it’s the fault of the lowest dps. I have seen high dps cause wipes because they are looking at meters instead of moving out of the way.
Crazzie: It also boils down to 2 things, 1 hardcore vrs casual players. So i can only debate on that level.
I am not sure that any players should call themselves "hard core" if they are using something that is not provided by the actual game to complete a difficult encounter. Surely it is more "hard core" to do a boss with the UI presented to the player than it is to use third party add ons that make it easier to dodge and told where to go and see who needs to up their game? This arguement doesnt hold up. I could easily argue that dps meters and notification warnings are there to make the game easier and less "hard core".
Also, VR have said many times that end content raiding is not what the game is about. What you are effectively wanting is that the game should give raiders an easier ride and force that on everyone else. Is it more important for a "hard core" raiding guild to be provided with tools that make it easier to complete raids? Na, not at all!
EQ had hard core raiding guilds that were exactly that and relied on skill and understanding, not meters and warnings.
This thread has been shared as part of my CM content, please remain on topic and continue to follow the guidelines.
"Community Debate - Community Debate - Hide Combat Number From The Client? Tell us your thoughts in this thread on the official forums. https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12608/hide-the-numbers-from-the-client #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"
I am not sure that any players should call themselves "hard core" if they are using something that is not provided by the actual game to complete a difficult encounter. Surely it is more "hard core" to do a boss with the UI presented to the player than it is to use third party add ons that make it easier to dodge and told where to go and see who needs to up their game? This arguement doesnt hold up. I could easily argue that dps meters and notification warnings are there to make the game easier and less "hard core".
I think I love this paragraph.
chenzeme said:I am not sure that any players should call themselves "hard core" if they are using something that is not provided by the actual game to complete a difficult encounter. Surely it is more "hard core" to do a boss with the UI presented to the player than it is to use third party add ons that make it easier to dodge and told where to go and see who needs to up their game? This arguement doesnt hold up. I could easily argue that dps meters and notification warnings are there to make the game easier and less "hard core".
Also, VR have said many times that end content raiding is not what the game is about. What you are effectively wanting is that the game should give raiders an easier ride and force that on everyone else. Is it more important for a "hard core" raiding guild to be provided with tools that make it easier to complete raids? Na, not at all!
EQ had hard core raiding guilds that were exactly that and relied on skill and understanding, not meters and warnings.
Not to mention, some of said "hard core raiding guilds" would do things like park a couple of Rogue(s) and Cleric(s)s outside of combat where they could run in and play body snatcher and rez monkey in the event of a wipe so that they didn't have to fight their way all the way back down to the raid area. There was an order to which various members of the party would be grabbed by the Rogus(s) and pulled out ot the Cleric(s) for rez. Then once as many people could be grabbed had been grabbed, they'd all buff up and get ready to run back in and fight and rez anyone left.
Kalok said:chenzeme said:I am not sure that any players should call themselves "hard core" if they are using something that is not provided by the actual game to complete a difficult encounter. Surely it is more "hard core" to do a boss with the UI presented to the player than it is to use third party add ons that make it easier to dodge and told where to go and see who needs to up their game? This arguement doesnt hold up. I could easily argue that dps meters and notification warnings are there to make the game easier and less "hard core".
Also, VR have said many times that end content raiding is not what the game is about. What you are effectively wanting is that the game should give raiders an easier ride and force that on everyone else. Is it more important for a "hard core" raiding guild to be provided with tools that make it easier to complete raids? Na, not at all!
EQ had hard core raiding guilds that were exactly that and relied on skill and understanding, not meters and warnings.
Not to mention, some of said "hard core raiding guilds" would do things like park a couple of Rogue(s) and Cleric(s)s outside of combat where they could run in and play body snatcher and rez monkey in the event of a wipe so that they didn't have to fight their way all the way back down to the raid area. There was an order to which various members of the party would be grabbed by the Rogus(s) and pulled out ot the Cleric(s) for rez. Then once as many people could be grabbed had been grabbed, they'd all buff up and get ready to run back in and fight and rez anyone left.
Ah those were indeed the days!
As usual, my response is try and make the game as close to Classic EQ1 "in feel" as possible with modern improvements. The last decade of MMOs has brought us Add-Ons for every little thing that trivializes much of the content in the game. Threat meters, DPS meters, Overhealing meters, Debuff triggers, AoE warnings, etc... All of that is FAR WORSE than the "feel" that EQ1 gave us even though that game provided damage numbers as well. We need to get back to playing the game more strategically using critical thinking skills and intuitiveness. Less spam, less rotations, less add-ons. VR, you do whatever it is you have to do to break this cycle found in current MMO games. This kind of stuff ruined WoW and pretty much every other MMO since, gotta figure out a new innovative way to avoid the same trap. And, if that's hiding combat numbers, then do so.
It is not inherently "hard core" to challenge yourself arbitrarily. Externally imposed limitations are accepted universally, but self-imposed limitations need to be accepted by the community as a whole to be worthwhile. It is not "hard core" to ignore the numbers the game provides to you. Would it be more "hard core" to do naked (no gear) boss runs? Self-imposed limitations are a gimmicky way to increase challenge, but are not generally considered "hard core".
That said, I have always been a supporter of hiding all numbers, because that creates an externally imposed limitation that we all have to live with. I don't want to have to handicap myself to be challenged if the game in no way recognizes that handicap. I would like a narrative based sysem akin to what Disposalist brought up with separate categories for self and target.
1) Self: What was your perception of the attack made. Example: Your uppercut hits squarely on the target.
2) Target: What was your perception of the impact of the attack on your enemy. Example: The ravenous bear appears unaffected.
Ainadak said:It is not inherently "hard core" to challenge yourself arbitrarily. Externally imposed limitations are accepted universally, but self-imposed limitations need to be accepted by the community as a whole to be worthwhile. It is not "hard core" to ignore the numbers the game provides to you. Would it be more "hard core" to do naked (no gear) boss runs? Self-imposed limitations are a gimmicky way to increase challenge, but are not generally considered "hard core".
Self-imposed restrictions is not what this thread is about. It is whether numbers should be sent to a client or not. If they are sent, then they will be used to make the game easier to play and in a way that the designers and developers have not intended. If these numbers are not sent to the client, then the restriction is, by definition, externally imposed.
It is not gimmicky to play the game the way it is intended to be played by the designers. If you are making it easier for yourself by circumventing the framework provided, then I dont consider that as being hard core. Because of VR's wish that meters dont play a part in their game, then you have to hide those number or not supply them at all.
Ainadak: Would it be more "hard core" to do naked (no gear) boss runs?
Quite a patronising question, but to answer it directly; it would most definitely be more "hard core" to complete a raid naked than fully equipped But that wont happen and it would be foolhardy to attempt and you are not doing the rest of the raid any favours. But yes, it could be viewed as hard core.
Is it "hard core" to learn to take a boss down in the most efficient manner possible within the developers framework? Yes, it is.
Is it "hard core" to use an external advantage over that same boss for the sake of bragging rights? No, it is not.
SingerX: Trust me, the game looks so much better without all the nonsense.
Exactly, show me the world not the matrix!
As a healer, I like seeing HPS related combat numbers. I can't stress how vital it as a healer to know how strong your spells are for the purpose of mana conservation, especially in longer fights.
I think that if people want to they should have the ability to disable combat numbers if they want. I also think that if there was an option to hide this information from other clients that could be cool as well, and an option like that might circumvent DPS meters.
As for my views on DPS meters, I don't really mind them, but I wish they were utilized as more of a personal tool vs a general evaluation of other people. I personally love seeing how I am performing and what my limits are so I can push myself further and try to break those limits.
In all the games that I have played over the years, WOW is the only one in which I have viewed DPS meters as being mandatory and that is because of how fights are designed. WoW is (or has become) less about fun and true adaptability and more about efficiency and perfection. WoW's adaptability is more like simulation training, it comes from continually throwing yourself into the fight to learn the unforgiving mechanic's vs on fly decision making and trying to step up based on dynamic circumstances. On top of that fights basically boil down to two parameters did you have the DPS or healing required to pass the check and not was your group smart enough to work around what you had.
Mathir said:As usual, my response is try and make the game as close to Classic EQ1 "in feel" as possible with modern improvements. The last decade of MMOs has brought us Add-Ons for every little thing that trivializes much of the content in the game. Threat meters, DPS meters, Overhealing meters, Debuff triggers, AoE warnings, etc... All of that is FAR WORSE than the "feel" that EQ1 gave us even though that game provided damage numbers as well. We need to get back to playing the game more strategically using critical thinking skills and intuitiveness. Less spam, less rotations, less add-ons. VR, you do whatever it is you have to do to break this cycle found in current MMO games. This kind of stuff ruined WoW and pretty much every other MMO since, gotta figure out a new innovative way to avoid the same trap. And, if that's hiding combat numbers, then do so.
This absolutely this. The addons don't promote real skill. Challenge and using your noggin does. Yes I am old school. I don't want to be distracted by addon programs that force me to compete with my team members instead of the boss mob we are trying to take down. My focus is there..not anywhere else. The other thing that these addon apps encourage is "kickitus" I experienced this in Rift. I am going along doing what I can to help the team kill the mob. Evidently my dps wasn't as high as the next person..and without a vote or anything. Boom I am kicked out of the group in the middle of the dungeon. Teamwork? what's that ..something you eat? I prefer the old days where everyone WORKED TOGETHER and didn't make it an ego race. The kicking thing was common in Rift, in the end I quit the game. Let's get back to real team work, ok guys?
Cana
chenzeme said:Self-imposed restrictions is not what this thread is about. It is whether numbers should be sent to a client or not. If they are sent, then they will be used to make the game easier to play and in a way that the designers and developers have not intended. If these numbers are not sent to the client, then the restriction is, by definition, externally imposed.
I mean, I still want to see my numbers. I want to see my damage/healing and the numbers associated with it, but I would be happy enough if others could not see such things (unless they were the one healed or somehow taking damage from me). All I should see from others for damage is "Player2 misses/hits a gnoll sentinel" or "Player4's spell was resisted by (or on hit, some colorful flavor text) a gnoll sentinel" and "Player3 looks healthier" from a heal.
The other thing that these addon apps encourage is "kickitus" I experienced this in Rift.
FF:XIV did pretty good with this. Dps meters like ACT were officially not allowed, but it would only get you banned if you tried to call out other players/kick them based on info you gathered from them. Several people got banned for acting like terrible people, and everyone else who used them got what they wanted out of them.
You do realize that if the numbers are sent to the client you don't have to use 3rd party software to display them. In most games you can even turn off the logging so you never have to see anything in the log. Why do you feel the need to limit the information available to other players who may want to be min/max players? I have played in guilds that have used ACT as well as those that didn't care if you used it or not. Interestingly, without ACT decisions are made not from information but from gut feeling. The case of Ranger 1 out parsing Ranger 2 if you have no data then it is just a gut reaction when if you looked at the data you might be able to determine that Ranger 2 doesn't have the buffs or group make up of Ranger 1 which could be resolved. If you are afraid of what other players are going to say due to what the see in the logs then you probably need to find another group as they are going to judge you without data if they don't have it.
Also, other games have tried to limit the data sent to a client to only those numbers for the individual players. I have seen and been part of guilds which use parsers which everyone has to download and connect to a central hub where all the information is collected and redistributed so limiting the information is not a real answer. (Players will adapt and overcome)
Dylkex said:You do realize that if the numbers are sent to the client you don't have to use 3rd party software to display them. In most games you can even turn off the logging so you never have to see anything in the log. Why do you feel the need to limit the information available to other players who may want to be min/max players? I have played in guilds that have used ACT as well as those that didn't care if you used it or not. Interestingly, without ACT decisions are made not from information but from gut feeling. The case of Ranger 1 out parsing Ranger 2 if you have no data then it is just a gut reaction when if you looked at the data you might be able to determine that Ranger 2 doesn't have the buffs or group make up of Ranger 1 which could be resolved. If you are afraid of what other players are going to say due to what the see in the logs then you probably need to find another group as they are going to judge you without data if they don't have it.
Also, other games have tried to limit the data sent to a client to only those numbers for the individual players. I have seen and been part of guilds which use parsers which everyone has to download and connect to a central hub where all the information is collected and redistributed so limiting the information is not a real answer. (Players will adapt and overcome)
Didn't need that stuff in EQ1, and it was still easy to tell if someone wasn't pulling their weight. You knew who a good DPS/healer/tank was and who wasn't just by grouping with them. Talking to a highly respected player of your class about tips was always an effective way of improving. You don't need the data sent to the client for any of those dynamics to occur, you just have to be social. And while it would simplify things to have the numbers given to you, the ancillary cost of allowing an infinite number of Add-Ons to then also be created and dumb down your game is not worth it. Add-Ons are an anathema to the health of an MMO. In order to avoid them, the trick is not to limit damage data sent to the client, but to eliminate it altogether.
The reality of the matter is that if people really enjoy the parsing and add-on style of MMO play, current WoW has perfected that. And most of the recent modern games have that aspect as well. Most people here hate that aspect of the last decade of MMOs. The entire point of Pantheon is to go back to the MMO roots about what made EQ1 and even Classic WoW so magical. And it was playing an MMO that was not that style of militaristic chore. It seems like the only way to maybe get back to that is to hide numbers from the client.
I would like to be able to have my own damage numbers to help me refine my skills at the role I play. I would equally like to not be judged by players who place too much emphasis on my dps numbers (because they can read them off a meter) and not enough emphasis on all the other benefits of my class abilities and play style that they have NO numbers for.
I believe a good starting place for finding an acceptable 'middle ground' would include this:
FatedEmperor said: I think that if people want to they should have the ability to disable combat numbers if they want. I also think that if there was an option to hide this information from other clients that could be cool as well, and an option like that might circumvent DPS meters.
Having separate control over whether your damage numbers go out to other clients would allow players and guilds the ability to turn that setting on and find other, like-minded players to group with, dps meters and all.
Being able to leave it off would let the rest of us play as we wish.
And very importantly, having it set to off as default would help - as much as possible - to resist the tendency of it becoming required for everyone to turn it on if they want to find groups.
I also believe that this suggestion here:
disposalist said: A Dungeons and Dragons dungeon master could say,"Your longsword swing aimed true and strong for the orc's head, but it dodged well and you glanced a blow off his helmet. You did nick his ear, though, and your blade poison appears to be having some limited effect. Your attack and fast poison would have been enough to subdue a normal orc. This one is clearly something of an exception in toughness and speed. You're going to have to double your expected efforts!".
I would *love* to see that kind of info from a computer RPG game. Maybe Pantheon could make the combat UI messages more 'human language' and less numbers?...
Is a terrific way to give helpful, immersive info to the players (and their groupmates) who want to have exact numbers turned off.
Mathir said:Dylkex said:You do realize that if the numbers are sent to the client you don't have to use 3rd party software to display them. In most games you can even turn off the logging so you never have to see anything in the log. Why do you feel the need to limit the information available to other players who may want to be min/max players? I have played in guilds that have used ACT as well as those that didn't care if you used it or not. Interestingly, without ACT decisions are made not from information but from gut feeling. The case of Ranger 1 out parsing Ranger 2 if you have no data then it is just a gut reaction when if you looked at the data you might be able to determine that Ranger 2 doesn't have the buffs or group make up of Ranger 1 which could be resolved. If you are afraid of what other players are going to say due to what the see in the logs then you probably need to find another group as they are going to judge you without data if they don't have it.
Also, other games have tried to limit the data sent to a client to only those numbers for the individual players. I have seen and been part of guilds which use parsers which everyone has to download and connect to a central hub where all the information is collected and redistributed so limiting the information is not a real answer. (Players will adapt and overcome)
Didn't need that stuff in EQ1, and it was still easy to tell if someone wasn't pulling their weight. You knew who a good DPS/healer/tank was and who wasn't just by grouping with them. Talking to a highly respected player of your class about tips was always an effective way of improving. You don't need the data sent to the client for any of those dynamics to occur, you just have to be social. And while it would simplify things to have the numbers given to you, the ancillary cost of allowing an infinite number of Add-Ons to then also be created and dumb down your game is not worth it. Add-Ons are an anathema to the health of an MMO. In order to avoid them, the trick is not to limit damage data sent to the client, but to eliminate it altogether.
The reality of the matter is that if people really enjoy the parsing and add-on style of MMO play, current WoW has perfected that. And most of the recent modern games have that aspect as well. Most people here hate that aspect of the last decade of MMOs. The entire point of Pantheon is to go back to the MMO roots about what made EQ1 and even Classic WoW so magical. And it was playing an MMO that was not that style of militaristic chore. It seems like the only way to maybe get back to that is to hide numbers from the client.
I played EQ1 and am still a fan of the naked corpse run, breaking into the original Fear and Hate. (Get near the wall in Hate bringing the whole zone down, Fear having chain aggro,... ahh the good days) 72 man raids with a bench.
Again, if you don't want to use add-ons or look at the numbers that is up to you. The trick to avoiding add-ons is not to download them. I assume you are arguing against any mods for the UI. The base UI should be good enough and I am sure you want to stare at the book when you med cause that is what we did in EQ1.
You don't want people to have information because their might be addons. How does someone else having a add-on affect you? If, as you say, you can determine without it who is a good dps, healer, tank, or crowd control then someone else having an add-on shouldn't affect your game play. However, others may want to use it to improve themselves or their guild and it should be upto them. If someone wants to stare at the dps chart while playing to try and min/max that again is up to them.
Jothany: ...I believe a good starting place for finding an acceptable 'middle ground'...
Unfortunately, there cannot be a middle ground with this. If your client receives numbers that are only for your character, an application can still be built that can share your numbers with others. As soon as that happens, you have meters again. If you can do it, raids and hard bosses will start to require it. It will become the standard and you will be at a disadvantage if you do not use them.
If the game doesn't provide a mechanism, then using an external system that makes game play easier is a form of cheating. It is unbalancing the game in favour of those that use such systems and against those that do not use them and in my view, it is no different than using aiming mechanisms in fps. If the game itself provides meters, then fine; if it doesn't it is a cheat.
You either have meters or you don't share exact numbers. In my opinion, you don't need exact numbers to know how well you are doing in a fight or how well you are doing at healing or when to move or where to move. You need to learn the game as it is and not look at numeric tables.
Dylkex: Again, if you don't want to use add-ons or look at the numbers that is up to you.
Again, it is not a case of having a choice. If add-ons are available and you need to do hard content then you have to use them regardless of your wishes. Certainly those in charge will tell you to use them or go and find another group/raid. It just isn't a simple choice of use or not use. If they are there you will have to use them or be at a significant disadvantage.
Dylkex: How does someone else having a add-on affect you?
Again you are missing the argument that people will be expected to use them or not get into raids, that's how it affects you. Having someone tell you to do more dps in a group regardless of what else you are doing in a fight, thats how it affects you. If someone in your group uses a meter, then of course if can affect you.
Dylkex: If someone wants to stare at the dps chart while playing to try and min/max that again is up to them.
When that very same person then turns to me and says I have to change my rotation because I am not matching their numbers, regardless of what else I am doing, then it is affecting me too. DPS is not the be all and end all of game play. Maybe my rotation is helping my team mates at the expence of my dps; it might be down because my rotation is making it easier for the healers to keep the tank alive. Maybe my rotation is providing a 7% increase in party healing while I suffer a 3% decrease in dps or maybe my rotation is slowing the mob(s) down and decreasing their damage output, or making them more vulnerable, or all of the above. Just because you top a dps list doesnt mean you are playing better than someone lower down. The problem is that I have never seen a dps meter take into consideration everything else a player is doing. It is a measurement of one aspect of the game.
Burning a mob down as fast as you can is not the only way to play a game or even the right way. Numbers do not tell the whole story but they are treated as gospel. Learn the role not the numbers.
Spot on Chenzeme. There's no counter-argument to what you just said, it's the absolute truth. Personally, I do like the data of DPS meters and using that to tinker with abilities for maximum efficiency, but not at the cost of getting Add-Ons that trivialize the game. And that's what Add-Ons do, they trivialize the game, it is their sole purpose, to make something easier. or more convenient And as you stated, if Add-Ons can be done through client side data-mining, than they are going to be a requirement for the playerbase whether the individual player wishes it or not. And then the game is going to have to be designed around those Add-Ons, whether the developers wish it or not. Blizzard learned that all too well.
For over a decade now, MMOs keep making the same mistakes: Cash Shops, Cosmetic Slots, Rotation-based action game play, Add-Ons to trivialize the game, increasingly more solo-based focus. All of us know why the genre has been lackluster and people only stick around for a few months. We all know what the genre needs to course correct. I imagine developers are well aware also. The reality is we need a company that is more interested in making a great game than maximizing profit and appealing to as many people as possible, AND in the financial position to publish such a game. I imagine VR's heart is in the right place, but the likely outcome of all this is that to launch the game, they'll have to compromise with a publisher and the end product will be an MMO just like all the others for the last decade with the same underlying problems. It might even make money and hang around awhile, but we'll all be right back to waiting for someone to make an actual old school MMO that avoids the mistakes of this generation of MMOs. And the sad truth is it may never happen, not with publishers chasing the almighty dollar, and especially with Brad having passed. Pantheon probably is our last shot, but with this many people asking for DPS meters, Cosmetic Shops, Transmog, and other modern MMO poisons, we're likely just going to get another Rift, GW2, SWToR, or ESO type experience. And that might be a success for VR, but it won't be for many of us.
Mathir. Thank you. I live in hope that VR create the game that they keep saying they want. At the moment I will sick with it and hope. It all looks good so far.
chenzeme said:Jothany: ...I believe a good starting place for finding an acceptable 'middle ground'...
Unfortunately, there cannot be a middle ground with this. If your client receives numbers that are only for your character, an application can still be built that can share your numbers with others. As soon as that happens, you have meters again.
I want to be sure I understand what you just said. Are you saying that you (or some hacker) can build an app that runs on your computer that will allow you to intercept the damage stats that the server is sending to me without any cooperation from me? AND that VR won't be able to detect it and ban you for hacking?