Mathir said:So, the first monthly newsletter update with no patch notes in half a year and it's all according to plan? Nice transparency Roenick. You should have done two streams, it's common sense, unless you just didn't have the substance to make up a stream due to the holidays, in which case that could have simply been stated and we would have understood. You guys make it harder than it should be to have faith. But, whatever, I guess according to the "plan", Patch Notes, your most popular segment, has been scrapped for 2021 monthly updates. Bold Strategy.
wtf. man, take a break
No matter what comes out from VR, the same old same olds will negatively shout about something. For once take the announcement at face value.
philo: Delayed? Not the 7th like we were told? I wish this wasn't normal...
...I'm curious, what was the plan for the stream when we were told the dates back in Nov.? Before it was "rescheduled to Sunday so we are able to stream with Cohh."?...
You have no idea what Cohh's schedules was like, whether this was last minute or not, or VR's for that matter. A couple of days in the big scheme is nothing.
Mathir: ...You should have done two streams, it's common sense, unless you just didn't have the substance to make up a stream due to the holidays...
You forget that every time VR do a stream, their limited staff are not working on the game. At this point, I would suggest that it does not make sense to do multiple streams in a short period and the effort required to do that would be better placed in development. We have no idea what else will be included in the stream and I think it is common sense to wait for it before raising complaints about its content. It seems very reasonable to me that a stream is delayed if there is something new and exciting to be added, and from the announcement's text, we know there is.
Mathir: Patch Notes, your most popular segment, has been scrapped for 2021 monthly updates
Sorry what? If that is official, please link it because I certainly havent seen that. We do not know the full content of the stream, we do not know if there are patch notes included or not and I for one, certainly dont know that patch notes have been scrapped.
We do know the stream is a Development Update so will cover the current development of the game. Given that, I would suggest that it is very likely that patch notes will be included at the end of the show as normal.
MauvaisOeil: There is an odd growing urge for public drama and contradiction over nitpicking informations these days...
Agreed. Watch the stream then comment on its content; what is the point of making unsubstantiated pronouncements on unknowables? Questions and observations yes, unfounded pseudo facts, no!
Yes it would be great to have extra information pouring out from VR on a daily basis and I for one would lap it up, but every time information is published it takes multiple people time and effort to release it. That is time and effort away from game production. I am happy with the slight delay if it means a better show with guaranteed new content. I for one applaud VR's efforts and am really looking forward to the stream and the games new content. It has been too long since Cohh covered PRotF and I cant wait to see:
... Pantheon's major features in a fully playable experience...
It's only a few days, not that big a deal. I mean last year and this year are really great for teaching patience. I still don't have my PS5, Ryzen 5950x, 3080, Asus Dark Hero MB, it took me a month or so just to get fans and memory of choice. At least we have a solid date for this and not a "who knows" date. (sans scalpers, I am still unwilling to waste that kind of money)
Plus, not like Pantheon isn't nearing a decade old (just shy of seven years since the kickstarter). The Devs probably won't agree with me, but I think it is better to just check out the web page every so often the forget about it.
Oh, for the love of God. Roenick literally said in this thread that there would be no patch notes and "otherwise" the stream is the same. Meaning, they changed their plans on the stream to get Cohh to play their newbie experience to his audience. It wasn't the original plan. That's a fact from the horses mouth.
Now, does it matter much? Yes. Not because they changed the date or are trying to reach Cohh's audience, but because they are not doing a development update stream despite labeling it as such. I'm voicing my displeasure at that because most of the community will be disappointed with no Patch Notes or Joppa going into depth about what the team worked on for the last month. In case you haven't noticed, the rate of development is a touchy subject and one where many potential backers are waiting to see improvement before investing. Ben just had to do a Producer's letter on the team being more transparent with their development after their mistakes concerning communication about development being paused to recode the entire game. That was just a couple months ago, the wounds are still fresh.
Right now, all we have to know if the game is progressing is the team size, which lost a lot of key talent in 2020, and the monthly development updates which star Patch Notes. And we know that instead of Patch Notes, we are getting Cohh streaming a newbie/intro experience. My argument is that it would be better served for the team to do two streams. The normal update stream with Patch Notes so that we know things are progressing, and this Intro stream with Cohh to try and tap into his audience and introduce them to Pantheon. They are two different experiences with two different goals aiming for two different potential backer bases. Common sense says two streams. Maybe the Development stream is only 30 mins due to the subsequent Cohh stream (as per Chenzeme's point about resources), but two different streams none the less.
Some of you need to go watch Minus' video. Don't shame me for voicing my opinions and frustration. I am frustrated there will be No Patch notes. I am voicing that opinion on the forum where I should be voicing it. I am giving an idea on how to accomplish the goal with Cohh and still provide Patch Notes to the loyal fan base and those that are watching for development progress. Some of you don't like that my tone is one of frustration, and that's fair, but I was/am frustrated. I've said my piece. Hopefully, the development updates get back on track for February, and I'll check back in then. So, to those shoo'ing me off the forums, request granted.
Wow Mathir and Philo, you come across as two people who have never had to be responsible for anything in your professional lives, let alone coordinating something with someone and their team outside of your own company.
Uterly rude and disrespectful posts; you're not politely voicing an opinion, you're closer to simply trolling.
Cohh has a schedule managed for him by his own team and it's planned weeks and months in advance in some cases around new releases, paid promotions and sponsored streams.
Thanks Roenick for the update, really looking forward to another stream with Cohh. Great that you guys can fit into part of his weekend schedule.
I generally agree with Mathir's last comments in terms of basic approach and attitude. Since I haven't seen the background material Mathir refers to I have no opinion on the accuracy of what is said.
I do add the significant caveat that with the stream coming up I think it would have been better to defer any criticism until after it takes place. If criticism is warrented, a brief delay in providing it would not hurt the cause. If, after we see precisely what is said, no criticism is warrented it would obviously be best not to make it.
Ezrael - I do not think Mathir and Philo were even remotely close to being rude and disrespectful. much less utterly so. It is fair for you to disagree with their conclusions but I think you went somewhat overboard with that comment. Let us all try to remember we are on the same side and have the same goals here, though we may disagree occasionally on details.
They also do not come across as demonstrating a lack of professional responsibility. Having spent a fairly long professional life working mostly with other people and needing to coordinate a great deal - often frustratingly so - I certainly understand that one's own timing sometimes needs to bend. But it is reasonable to suggest that VR could have come out with things unrelated to Cohh separately and then done whatever they are doing with Cohh. This would not necessarily have been the best approach but neither do I feel that suggesting it was in any way whatever a demonstration of ignorance or irresponsibility. Perhaps you might try harder to stick to the actual point being discussed and avoid veering off into ad hominum attacks on people whose only offense is that you disagree with them.
dorotea said:I generally agree with Mathir's last comments in terms of basic approach and attitude. Since I haven't seen the background material Mathir refers to I have no opinion on the accuracy of what is said.
I do add the significant caveat that with the stream coming up I think it would have been better to defer any criticism until after it takes place. If criticism is warrented, a brief delay in providing it would not hurt the cause. If, after we see precisely what is said, no criticism is warrented it would obviously be best not to make it.
Ezrael - I do not think Mathir and Philo were even remotely close to being rude and disrespectful. much less utterly so. It is fair for you to disagree with their conclusions but I think you went somewhat overboard with that comment. Let us all try to remember we are on the same side and have the same goals here, though we may disagree occasionally on details.
They also do not come across as demonstrating a lack of professional responsibility. Having spent a fairly long professional life working mostly with other people and needing to coordinate a great deal - often frustratingly so - I certainly understand that one's own timing sometimes needs to bend. But it is reasonable to suggest that VR could have come out with things unrelated to Cohh separately and then done whatever they are doing with Cohh. This would not necessarily have been the best approach but neither do I feel that suggesting it was in any way whatever a demonstration of ignorance or irresponsibility. Perhaps you might try harder to stick to the actual point being discussed and avoid veering off into ad hominum attacks on people whose only offense is that you disagree with them.
There's a level of respect, Developer or not, that needs to be upheld on these forums. I was responding to the "why lie" comment. The rest is Mathir's opinion and he's certainly entitled to it. For the sake of people's time, resources and what we determined would be the best way to get the information out, we decided to do the one stream with Cohh.
Criticims are always welcome, but I'm going to ask we lay off the personal attacks, on both sides, and move on. Let's focus on the stream and whatever other news/infomation is ahead.
It's going to be a great year for Pantheon, and we're glad you're here with us.
I'm actually very happy with the Cohh inclusion for two reasons: first it's been a VERY long time since we had a 3rd party gameplay stream, and second he has an enormous audience. Hope it goes very, very well. And it makes perfect sense to move it to the 10th to allow it to happen.
I do hope there is time on the 10th for patch notes, development updates, and a new PA5 pre-alpha session announced, as these are the stream "components" we have come to expect from a Dev Stream. Dave, would it be possible to let us know a couple of things now, prior to the stream, if just to calm things down a little?
1) The length of the stream on the 10th? Still 60 minutes or longer?
2) Will you guys cover the "components" on Sunday?
BTW hope the team had great holidays, glad to have you all back at work!
(There's a level of respect, Developer or not, that needs to be upheld on these forums. I was responding to the "why lie" comment.)
I agree that this comment and the paragraph it was contained in did justify Ezrael's comment. Since Ezrael was referring to the totality of the posts by two people I responded accordingly but you are entirely correct when it comes to this paragraph.
I, for one, am glad to see a Cohh stream, regardless of the timing. Do I want pre-alpha now or another sprint date announcement? YEP! Would I have preferred to have a new pre-alpha session instead of Cohh? Yep.
Perhaps, based upon history, the Cohh streams have brought in a traunch of support? Do not know, nor, to my knowledge, has this been published or proofed by anyone outside of VR, but VR feels that it is important, so great. We get to see more gameplay, etc. Great!
So, there is a few days delay in the latest running schedule iteration. Shrug.
Since some have voiced displeasure over this announcement for various reasons and that their opinions have a right to be heard. Well, voices of support have a right to be heard as well. Not on this thread, but on other threads some of the voices of displeasure have taken the mantra of "I do not care what you think", but yet they want to be heard.
So hear this: These are people. They have lives, they have schedules, they work in different parts of the world. Just because you may have put in some money to fund the project with no promises from VR; some of you seem to think that you should be entitled to know everything, be consulted about everything, be asked your opinion on everything. Really.......
I own stock in various companies and I have more rights from an ownership perspective than I have with VR because I helped fund a dream WITH ZERO PROMISES from VR. Being a regular stockholder of a company does not entitle me to know everything that the company does, nor do they consult with me about their schedules, secret projects or deals, etc.
Never before seen content, and a Cohh stream, is an amazing way to kick off the new year. Not sure why there would be much complaint about moving this from Thursday night to Sunday morning as I would assume many of us don't even watch these live. VR needs an influx of funds to ramp up production and this is a great way to get more eyeballs on the game. We should all be happy for that alone. And a big thank you to Cohh is also in order as he is taking time out of his day to (presumably) be doing this stream as a fan, instead of a paid influencer. Hopefully he is willing to stick around for a very long stream, but I think it would be understandable for VR not to throw out a timeframe for the stream until the day of, because if that doesn't pan out, it would only serve as fuel for detractors.
Mathir said:Some of you need to go watch Minus' video. Don't shame me for voicing my opinions and frustration. I am frustrated there will be No Patch notes. I am voicing that opinion on the forum where I should be voicing it. I am giving an idea on how to accomplish the goal with Cohh and still provide Patch Notes to the loyal fan base and those that are watching for development progress. Some of you don't like that my tone is one of frustration, and that's fair, but I was/am frustrated. I've said my piece. Hopefully, the development updates get back on track for February, and I'll check back in then. So, to those shoo'ing me off the forums, request granted.
Because someone makes a video that do back your position doesn't make it right, nor wrong. It's just a video, it's just another opinion you're using as a step up. Criticism is not bashing, neither patronizing or implying the team has no idea how to do things right or anything related. Whatever your experience or self confidence is, you're not on that project and are far to have a key role in it, so whatever your opinion is, you do not have half the scope to judge it from a neutral and optimized point.
I'm not fond of every feature announced for the game, that does not mean I'm openly challenging the team to have lied to expectations I created myself. I hold no rights over the game, only hopes.
This is not about cohh or a few days.
Its about VR being accountable.
They told us in Nov. the stream would be on a the 7th. They obviously didnt have Cohh scheduled when they told us the date.
In Oct. they said they were going to improve their communication.
In Oct. they said "we hope through our actions we can earn your confidence again."
Changing the date of the stream 2 days before after it has been scheduled for 2 months? It definitely comes off looking like poor planning.
VR has been failing to meet dates they set for themselves since 2014 and a few of us have been following closely enough to remember. Its time to be held accountable.
When we are given a date or a timeline who will take responsibility for that being met? Is there any leadership at all?...seriously though who? Is it Ben Dean whose job it is to be responsible for making sure the team reaches the goals they set? Who is going to step up and be accountable?
philo said:This is not about cohh or a few days.
Its about VR being accountable.
They told us in Nov. the stream would be on a the 7th. They obviously didnt have Cohh scheduled when they told us the date.
In Oct. they said they were going to improve their communication.
In Oct. they said "we hope through our actions we can earn your confidence again."
Changing the date of the stream 2 days before after it has been scheduled for 2 months? It definitely comes off looking like poor planning.
VR has been failing to meet dates they set for themselves since 2014 and a few of us have been following closely enough to remember. Its time to be held accountable.
When we are given a date or a timeline who will take responsibility for that being met? Is there any leadership at all?...seriously though who? Is it Ben Dean whose job it is to be responsible for making sure the team reaches the goals they set? Who is going to step up and be accountable?
great...and now we are back to not getting any dates at all... this is why we dont have nice things.
they give a stream date, need to modify it a tad, and you want to beat em up over it. let it go.
not saying you are wrong.. but really? you wanna pick a fight about a stream date?
reminds me of an old saying: "can't see the forest through the trees"."Sometimes when you concentrate on the minute details of a problem, you lose sight of the overall or you focus on the unimportant, rather than on the important things. Bottom line - you miss the big picture."
If you think this is about 1 stream date and not 20+ other failed goals you are the one who can't see the forest through the trees.
After the Oct. newsletter we are supposed to see improvement and better communication. Where is the accountability?
philo said:If you think this is about 1 stream date and not 20+ other failed goals you are the one who can't see the forest through the trees.
After the Oct. newsletter we are supposed to see improvement and better communication.
You are probably right that I can't. but what standard should we hold this team to? a fortune 500 company? our government? A small team trying their best to make a game we want? i dunno.
Are the optics bad? Maybe.
Listen, I feel ya. Do missed goals and poor communication suck? Absolutely. I understand and get frustrated too. but it's a new year and looks like it's going to be a big stream. This is a small date change that I don't even consider poor planning. In fact, I kinda expect it. I keep seeing reason to follow/support this game apart from the expected bad.
Anyway, I appreciate your passion and dedication.
Take care friend.
Mathir said:Ben just had to do a Producer's letter on the team being more transparent with their development after their mistakes concerning communication about development being paused to recode the entire game. That was just a couple months ago, the wounds are still fresh
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The wounds are still fresh....really??? I'd take a break from games if I were you, just saying.
This post was edited by Xhelius at January 6, 2021 12:27 PM PST
I'm psyched for the stream. I really enjoy the Cohh streams and they are the main reason I pledged, glad to see another one on the horizon; thanks for reaching out to him. I'll probably even be able to make this one live which I've never been able to do for a Cohh stream.
