This isn't a survival game though. A survival games entire focus is on min to min making the player focus on the basics to survive. The game systems are centered around such, this game is not. If the goal was to make this a Survival MMORPG, numerous systems they have planned and implemented woudl have to be adjusted in both balance and direction to the urgency and focus of what a Survival game is.
Trying to go too far implementing a different genres focus can wreak havoc on the over all system of play. It is why action systems have serious issues when implemented into a RPG system and extra care has to be taken to balance them.
I don't think they have the time and the people to try going this deep into the systems in terms of seeing their effects and balancing them within other systems.
I think in this case, a rule of thumb is that if the system requires too much attention by the player to where it distracts from over all play, it is maybe too far.
I think using food as a means to assist with acclimation is a great idea. If you're just walking around the world, noobie type areas there is no reason to carry food. If you are heading to one of the environments you need to acclimate to having food that increases the speed you acclimate, or some other related effect, adds to the game. You have to decide which type of food you're going to carry based on where you are headed. You have to plan it out. It isn't a purchase and forget feature.
NPC's could say the bare minimum you need. Higher level food could be crafted by players that increase the acclimation and also give stat buffs, though extremely minor. Food has never been a major contributor in mudflation stats, so having a minor stat buff shouldn't be a major issue. Say 1-5 Stam/Int/Str (core stats) or 0.01-5% crit, etc. Extremely minor but at the same time enough to make you pick based on your class, role, and where you are going.
This creates a system where food is useful and something to have to think about beyond "buy 2 stacks of each every week".
I'm not at all against food. I don't think requiring food/drink makes this a survival game. Anyone who played EQ and Ark should know the difference. I want food/drink to be something you make a decission on and not just some tedius upkeep feature.
I think there are good points on each side of this post. I believe there should be food and water needs in Pantheon but used in the following ways.
1. The use of food and water need inside of the boundery of the city is suppended.
2. If you chose to venture out side the city limits you need to provide your Food & Water needs
3 Crafting for food and water be a basic system that all players can do.
4.Crafters could fine items in the World that could help them with their Adventuring.
ie. the collection of Frost-Berry's mixed with Cold Spring Water will give you a vile of +1 to cold drink or the mixture of a fungus rubed on a dungon rat a +1 to heat
There are many items that a player can try some good other not so good. I think this would add to the gathering of items and the looking for the location of many places in the land to find. {hint} Have you seen that pool of clear cold water in the north.
Tanix said:This isn't a survival game though. A survival games entire focus is on min to min making the player focus on the basics to survive. The game systems are centered around such, this game is not. If the goal was to make this a Survival MMORPG, numerous systems they have planned and implemented woudl have to be adjusted in both balance and direction to the urgency and focus of what a Survival game is.
That is my exact point though. This game isn't a survival game so this narrative that food/drink should have to be adjusted in both balance and direction to the urgency and focus of what a survival game is ... is ludicrous. People are making it out like maintaining food/drink adds immersion/challenge or whatever else but the reality is that as long as food can be purchased from NPC merchants, the entire concept of having to "fight for food in order to survive" is lost. Pantheon isn't centered around survival mechanics, it's centered around shared experiences. Imagine if the scribe profession worked similar to what has been suggested here. Players would "need" paper so they can wipe their bottom. This would be viewed as an essential requirement in the game and those who don't do it would get sick and eventually die, or just be unable to function at a socially acceptable level. Since that activity would be considered a requirement, there would be plenty of merchants around the world that sell paper. They satisfy the "requirement" of paper, the "essential component" -- but wait ... there are player scribes and researchers as crafting professions so where do they fit in? Well if you decide to wipe with their special paper, you get some sort of temporary bonus. Merging "required consumable commodity" with "specialized product" is just bad design, IMO.
My entire point is that I don't want food to be some universally accessible thing. It should be governed by the supply/demand of the economy. It should be something that adds value to adventuring/crafting/harvesting spheres rather than detracting from them. Food components should come from the adventure/harvesting spheres and then turned into something meaningful through crafting. We can argue that making hygiene a requirement could add a sense of realism to the game, and even add inventory management implications, but what is the cost? If you make the idea of "maintaining a stock of paper" a requirement in the game then it's fair to assume that generic paper would be widely accessible to satisfy the massive demand for it. Conflating the "required consumable commodity" (generic paper sold by NPC's) aspect with "specialized product" is going to have a negative impact on the relative value of specialized paper (that which has its components harvested by players or dropped from NPC's and then crafted into something). The main point behind paper is hygiene but hey if you want +1 CON for half an hour then it makes sense to stimulate the economy and interact with crafters. It's counterintuitive to how a player-driven economy should work. The supply/demand of paper needs to be commensurate with any sense of benefit/requirement.
I feel the same way about consumable ammunition. If you are a ranger then you should probably have a fletching skill to help you out but "arrows" in general should be exclusively player-crafted. If it's ever considered reasonable to buy arrows from an NPC merchant then that would devalue any related harvesting and the content that drops components used in arrow recipes. This isn't a new gamer mindset. I just prefer a world where lumber, fletchings, and arrowheads are valuable. If you want to stave off inflation then the common drops from NPC's should be useful for something (to either craft yourself or sell to other players) other than selling them to merchants. (There is an argument that players buying goods from NPC's would remove currency from circulation, but that can easily be offset by adding those same costs as a "fuel resource" during the crafting process.) The value of these components will be relative to the demand and allowing NPC merchants to sell arrows is only going to diminish it. This one small wannabe-survival-meets-convenient-merchant concept will have a negative impact on the economy as it would undermine countless player-to-player transactions, from both buying and selling perspectives.
If food buffs are designed as a part of the entire system of character power they are not a cheat, they just become a different source of character power. Found/learned character abilities, equipped gear, spell based buffs, item sink buffs and consumable buff items are all legs of the table that make up a characters power. Food buffs would just be under the heading of consumable buffs.
The question becomes how many of these “legs” should stack and if they do are there diminishing returns. Each “leg” could have its own sphere of influence so that they do not overlap though that forces each character to always have all of the buffs possible to be their characters true strength as mobs would be balance based on True Strength and not partial strength.
This leads to the question, do we need all these legs to have a good game? Which sources of power make a better game and which become meaningless maintenance in excess of what improves the sensation of accomplishment.
Food/drink just to counter a countdown timer at the expense of inventory space in a game where inventory space management is intended to be important seems . . . low yield. It is basically saying that for X number of inventory spaces a character can stay away from a food vendor without penalties to the character. I personally don’t see the point, it is just material maintenance and an inventory slot tax. Just make my inventory two slots smaller and be done with it.
This can easily change if there is strategic value in having food/drink but that adds a layer of complexity to the game system which is a positive for some and a negative for others.
It's acceptable and even desirable to me that basic subsistence (non-buff) consumables would be available from vendors and special (buff) consumables be available from player crafters and various other types be available elsewhere.
I imagine, were I an adventurer and were looking to spend some time in 'the wilderness', I would buy some really good food and some excellent arrows and some excellent spare armor links (repair kit) etc etc.
When I'm out there, if I run out of super arrows or good food or drink or repair equipment, I would like to not *have* to return to the city and perhaps be able to make do with captured, foraged, self-fabricated arrows/food/drink/repair materials/etc. It would be a tactical option to stay out a bit longer making do with lesser quality consumables (which would effect my performance).
(It always annoyed the crap out of me in EQ that my adventurer can learn to do magic and combat and whatnot, but only certain races or classes know how to catch and cook a rabbit or even dig up a root or fill a canteen from a stream...)
Later, I would buy more of the good stuff when I am back to town with packs full of treasure.
As long as something like this is true: -
foraged < summoned < cheap vendored < expensive vendored < captured < city vendored < crafted
or whatever, I think they all can have their place and their tactical and monetary value.
How long does it last? How much does it weigh? How many bag slots (stack size)? What buff (or debuff if it's less-than-standard quality)? Etc.
I take the point that this could apply to arse wiping paper supplies and other tedious minutiae, but I think food and drink is a special case. We have cookery TV programs. We don't have arse wiping TV programs (do we?! I'm not Googling that...)
I've been thinking about the RPG in MMORPG a lot lately. What drew me to EverQuest and ultimately kept me there, was that I felt like a I was playing a RPG only the DM was the game. When I look at various mechanics of Pantheon now I've started to try and figure out, will this provide more of the RPG factor? Will this enhance or hinder that immersive quality? For almost every DM I have encountered food has been important on some level. It may not be life and death, though sometimes it could, but either way it's something you needed to take into consideration. So for me games that require you to take care of food have that old RPG feel, games that don't feel a little flatter.
Well, my 2 coppers...
1) Requiring nourishment to not be debuffed does not make the game a survival game. It means you need to stay nourished so that you aren't under-performing simply because you didn't want to bother with food and drink.
2) If you say it adds nothing to gameplay, but consider it a hassle you have to deal with for no good reason - then you have admitted that it adds something to gameplay. That is, it's a hassle because if you don't contend with it, you suffer, and if you do contend with it, you don't.
3) Personal taste only, but I like having nominal things to deal with in an MMO. I was a fan of coin weight because I sometimes had to consider dropping a valuable resource (coins) becuase I was too far from a bank and it was weighing me down. I'm a fan of things I "have" to carry (like food) in my bags because it makes me consider my bag space. Those sorts of things.
4) A game that has "little annoyances" (i.e. nominal things you need to consider all the time) aides in making high moments feel bigger.... because even if they only nag at you a little bit, they nag at you - and when you achieve something momentous, all that nag is temporarilly washed away and forgotten.
Kilsin said:Hot Topic - Hunger! Should your character need to eat? If so, how often is too often? Should it be crafted/baked by a professional in-game cook or by anyone? Should it buff you? Join in on the discussion here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10504/hunger #MMORPG #communitymatters
A player should need to have food/water in inventory to be able to regen hp/mana and avoid fatigue. Crafted food is ideal and such food would have a longer duration in inventory than cheap food from a merchant, like a ration. Perhaps some very high-end and expensive crafted food could be somewhat beneficial when engaging the brilliant climate system. There needs to be negatives with the positives. We need immersion; and food/water, hunger, player-summoned food/water (Summoner), and player-crafted food/water need to be a part of that.
Why the hell would anyone *want* to not regenerate health or mana at all, without food..or even be penalized for not having it. Immersion? Alright, have it toggleable for roleplay servers. I saw an arguement somewhere about how much detail is being put into enviormental hazards..and the difference is, overcoming the wild feels like a challenge. Being brave enough to buy 20 iron rations to eat bag space isn't a challenge, it's a chore.
I'm not keen on making mana (or health to a lesser extent) regen rate related to food/drink.
Mana regen almost always effectively dictates the speed at which your group can progress and the amount of downtime you have.
To make food/drink an absolute necessity that, without which, there is *no* mana regen is one thing.
To make it something that could *boost* (or mitigate *reduced* levels - effectively the same thing) makes it something else.
I'm not sure I like the idea of food/drink essentially being XP/loot 'potions' that no one will want to play without using.
I like the idea of XP/loot being related to how well you play and how well you integrate with your group, not on whether or not you remembered to visit a vendor or trade with a crafter.
I'd like to see food/drink *not* being related to mana/health directly, but being related to other, less directly influential and more tactical aspects, like movement speed, attributes, resistances, etc.
Of course, *everything* beneficial is related to how quickly/easily you obtain XP and loot, but mana and health are so directly related it would elevate food/water to being as important as player skills.
I agree with both parties. I don't want Pantheon to be a survival game. Those games are RUTHLESS when it comes to forcing your player to eat non stop throughout an hour or a day of gaming. My character eats enough to feed me as well......
I bet VR can implement a nice balanced mechanic that allows for us to need food more heavily, rather than just having food for buffs. Quite frankly, why even bother adding them in if its just a buff? Some foods are just min maxing certain stats because some people want to min max damage output. Boringgggg, just get gud kid.
I like the idea of a small debuff. The longer you go without eating, the worse is gets. Kind of like having ressurection sickness. In order to not have ressurection sickness, you avoid dying over and over again. Which is something they intend to do with this game. What about about avoiding another debuff? As long as it ISNT like a survival game, where you're forced to eat constantly (I was always trying to find food in 7 days to die, minecraft, ARK). I don't think NOT eating should kill anyone, though. We already have to worry about how many ways we are possibly going to die in this game, let's just take starvation off.
Honestly, I haven't bothered eating foods in many of the MMORPG's I've played recently. I had no need to max out my damage output cuz I'm always playing some sort of healer/support role. And I didn't want to clutter my bagspace. So if I ever needed health or mana, I just bought extra potions. Instant restore rather than sitting down to eat and drink. Not that I'd complain if I was forced to have food in my backpack, I would gladly take which ever meal would help me survive. It's just that, if there wasn't a need for it, whats the point?
Someone said negative effects, like dizziness, increased chance of failure to cast spells, decreased max health/mana, etc. And just give it a set % decrease. No one wants it to be a chore. Eating a really hearty meal regens/removes these effects immediately. Where simple stuff like bread removes these effects over a period of time.
Oooo, some meals created to help with acclimation or certain zone effects would be cool too. Not all though, I still want some zones to be straight up deadly.
Right. It was explained there are many points of consideration when determining a characters environmental readiness and it is well within reason to expect a hot meal to give you resistance to a cold climate. Furthermore, if we call a food buff a cheat, I say this opens other buffs or enhancements to be called cheats and I don't think we should go down that road. I suggest we call it another layer to the game and if it is a layer you don't like, then say you 'don't want to deal with another buff'. That's reasonable.
You can't have an in-game picnic with out food. There should be some form of rejuvenation. Camping by a fire and eating seal meat before venturing out into the cold moutains should provide some protection.
Food is not that far from Alchemy. Should certain herbs and the venom from a poisonous snake prepared in a special way be considered anti-venum potion? The potion should work in a dungeon in the same region. You could have alchemy crafting with regional recipies. I good alchemist would have traveled to many regions and experimented with many ingredients.
I could argue that Shamans and Monks should have some alchemical abilites. Right now the rogues have alchemical abilites for her contraptions and devices. Regardless of who does what where and how, it has a place in the world. If I take the time to prepare for battle, I should gain benifits from doing so.
I want to the world to be very emersive. Ingenuity and preparation should be rewarded. Food is part of the tools in the sand box, in my opinion.
disposalist said:I like the idea of XP/loot being related to how well you play and how well you integrate with your group, not on whether or not you remembered to visit a vendor or trade with a crafter.
I'd like to note your use of the word "play" here. This sounds like your idea of playing a MMORPG is only the battle. Myself I'm hoping for and expecting so much more out of Pantheon. I want the game play to include the travel time, the fishing time, the crafting time, the scouting new areas. ALL these have an added level of competence if the player heads out with or without food and drink.
For some of us there is much more to "play" in a RPG than just another shoot'em up arcade game.
LazarusEbonsong said:Why the hell would anyone *want* to not regenerate health or mana at all, without food..or even be penalized for not having it. Immersion? Alright, have it toggleable for roleplay servers. I saw an arguement somewhere about how much detail is being put into enviormental hazards..and the difference is, overcoming the wild feels like a challenge. Being brave enough to buy 20 iron rations to eat bag space isn't a challenge, it's a chore.
Not to be rude here.. but (in reference to your question) one can just as easily ask “why the hell would anyone want to die?” or “why the hell wouldn’t anyone want to kill the ice dragon all by himself?” Lol. Sorry, but there needs to be negatives with the positives
Zorkon said:disposalist said:I like the idea of XP/loot being related to how well you play and how well you integrate with your group, not on whether or not you remembered to visit a vendor or trade with a crafter.
I'd like to note your use of the word "play" here. This sounds like your idea of playing a MMORPG is only the battle. Myself I'm hoping for and expecting so much more out of Pantheon. I want the game play to include the travel time, the fishing time, the crafting time, the scouting new areas. ALL these have an added level of competence if the player heads out with or without food and drink.
For some of us there is much more to "play" in a RPG than just another shoot'em up arcade game.
Exactly! This is a MMORPG, not Mario-Kart. :)
Watemper said:Yes, I remember Brad saying something along the lines of wanting to put the E back in PVE. Might be time to start putting RPG back into MMORPG lol.
The holy grail of MMORPG development would be a convincing AI Chatbot for NPCs that could actually RP with you on the fly. Even better if it could recognize certain language to present quest plot hooks or allow for a player to convince the NPC to tell them something they would not otherwise. I think it is getting close to possible in single player games with a large enough reference database but I imagine the server load would be tremendous with 1000s of NPCs being engaged at the same time. Even if there was a standard interaction mode and an RP interaction mode to limit the active AI to only when an RP experience was desired.
. . . Yes the first step in putting RPG back into MMORPG would be to make the game also stand on its own as an RPG. We already have free form player to player role playing but the game is still effectively on rails for everything else. Really don’t understand where the “Also, no Lol” came from, it was your post to begin with that I was just encouraging.