OneADSeven,
Your entire focus isn't a sublayer, it is a main layer. Your implementation would require food/water be a main driving focus to play where the player spends a large percentage of their time managing it (ie making it a focal point).
As for buffs, not much more I can say on this as we are going in circles. I see it as arcadish, but then I also saw exp chains the same way, so lets chaulk this one up to a difference of taste in play.
It really is more simple than many pages of arguing. Discussing hunger alone is pointless because if it is only a matter of hunger/thirst, we are talking about a chore like armor/weapon repair.
If we are to craft food and drink, they should be beneficial.
If food and drink aren't beneficial, don't bother putting them in the game.
I believe 'just how beneficial' is the debate to have but some the arguments touch on the question of 'should we even have food in the game?'
We are going in circles a bit but that happens often and sometimes it helps focus the argument as the circle gets smaller. Sometimes it never gets smaller. Still a worthwhile debate imo. Circular reasoning is the best reasoning because it is circular.
Tigersin said:It really is more simple than many pages of arguing. Discussing hunger alone is pointless because if it is only a matter of hunger/thirst, we are talking about a chore like armor/weapon repair.
If we are to craft food and drink, they should be beneficial.
If food and drink aren't beneficial, don't bother putting them in the game.I believe 'just how beneficial' is the debate to have but some the arguments touch on the question of 'should we even have food in the game?'
We are going in circles a bit but that happens often and sometimes it helps focus the argument as the circle gets smaller. Sometimes it never gets smaller. Still a worthwhile debate imo. Circular reasoning is the best reasoning because it is circular.
I think the issue here is in perspective of "beneficial". I see having to have food to keep at a normal state as being "beneficial" while others see only "bonuses" as being such. If having to have food/water in order to keep from entering starving/thirst state which reduces and ultimately stops regen of health/mana, then would not food/water be "beneficial"? Or must everything that is considered a "benefit" be a priasing, a pat on the back, a "bonus" to be considered beneficial?
Tanix said:Tigersin said:It really is more simple than many pages of arguing. Discussing hunger alone is pointless because if it is only a matter of hunger/thirst, we are talking about a chore like armor/weapon repair.
If we are to craft food and drink, they should be beneficial.
If food and drink aren't beneficial, don't bother putting them in the game.I believe 'just how beneficial' is the debate to have but some the arguments touch on the question of 'should we even have food in the game?'
I think the issue here is in perspective of "beneficial". I see having to have food to keep at a normal state as being "beneficial" while others see only "bonuses" as being such. If having to have food/water in order to keep from entering starving/thirst state which reduces and ultimately stops regen of health/mana, then would not food/water be "beneficial"? Or must everything that is considered a "benefit" be a priasing, a pat on the back, a "bonus" to be considered beneficial?
Yep, that’s so true Tanix. Again - this game is being made into an mmoRPG. And it’s especially true that this is being built into an alternative to ‘mainstream.’ You know - the mainstream with declining subs..
I'm too lazy to read 6 pages of fighting and arguing so I just wanna give my opinion. Do it like EQ1. if it's not broken, don't fix it.
You need food and water to regen health and mana, players can make Better food, even food with stats.
I don't wanna have to find some person selling food at inflated prices to survive. Let me buy food and drink at nearly any vendor and go about my day.
Syrif said:Yep, that’s so true Tanix. Again - this game is being made into an mmoRPG. And it’s especially true that this is being built into an alternative to ‘mainstream.’ You know - the mainstream with declining subs..
See, the thing that worries me is that while you are right, that "ultimately" game play as such will drive players away, it is the "moth to flame" concept and this is the process to which has driven console based development in the past. It is why console games go through staganation after a while as the companies market gimmicks till the base gets tired and moves on. That said, this process is ridiculously profitable, insanely even. The PC market for years was different, it had a different base and focus. Sure, it had its own ups and downs based on marketing, but it was its own subsect of focus often driven by game play design (ie the adventure market dying out because of the application of a mouse/click based interface over that of text based).
Fact is, I even found Pen and Paper to flow away from "gaming" concepts in favor of "entertainment". I remember the WhiteWolf PnP games being introduced and the whole "LARP" aspect of play driving that community, where less focus was put on the statistical development and existence of a character in the world to that of promoting people simply "acting" out their characters with "ro sham bo" contests in play.
I never thought such as a game as much as I did people wanting to walk around "acting" out what they wanted to be, I did respect that this is what they enjoyed (I just didn't see it as a game as much as I did a bunch of people narcicistically seeking attention in their activities).
I mean, as a Pen and Paper player I had much more in common with the tactical board game play of Warhammer than the free flowing LARPer.
Again, I don't think such concepts are invalid, but I do contest, rigidly with those who proclaim such disorganized and unstructed systems as being "game play". At the most basic forms, yes... I can acknowledge it, but in the same way that I can acknowledge a fan of air shows being a pilot.
Point is, there are a lot of varying and conflicting concepts of expectations to which this game is dealing with.
I see VR/Pantheon walking a very fine line, where if it steps off on to one side (which it is more likely leaning) it will be out of view of the other. That may mean "profitable", but it will mean people like me seeing the game as yet another "claim" made by a long list of game companies who have sold out.
Some may think me being too harsh, but sorry, I am too old, too long lived in the human transaction realms to put on blinders and "believe".
I donated, but that doesn't mean I am a dupe and VR has to earn my respect, which will be reserved till release day.
Tanix said:I think the issue here is in perspective of "beneficial". I see having to have food to keep at a normal state as being "beneficial" while others see only "bonuses" as being such. If having to have food/water in order to keep from entering starving/thirst state which reduces and ultimately stops regen of health/mana, then would not food/water be "beneficial"? Or must everything that is considered a "benefit" be a priasing, a pat on the back, a "bonus" to be considered beneficial?
That's a good point. I didn't think the word would have perspectives but in a way it does, as you say. So, sure.
Originally, I said "Discussing hunger alone is pointless because if it is only a matter of hunger/thirst, we are talking about a chore like armor/weapon repair."
I can rephrase it: If the devs consider maintenance of weapon and armor a chore, why shouldn't they consider carrying stacks of items just to play your hero at a NORMAL state a chore?
What that means is that I believe carrying around 4 stacks of IDCWTF all the time just for the sake of having IDCWTF in the game is pointless as far as I am concerned. I'd like to carry food based on what it does for me.
If I'm going into a snowy area, I want to carry a container of hot soup.
If I'm going into a desert, I want to carry some thirst quenching melons.
If I'm going under water, I want a stack of water breathing gum weed.
Don't make me carry Wander Bread and Cruel Aid just so that I can play my level 15 hero and not be punished.
I mean.. alright I'm already editing this.. what is the penalty in the desert if I don't have those melons? I suppose the environmental effects, perhaps even loss of HP or a lower HP cap. So I am OK with punishment for not having food if the punshiment is from environments.
I just don't know about the qeynos hills kind of zone, needing to have bread and water. For the record... I am OK either way. Even if we need bread and water to keep regenerating HP and Res. I'll be fine with it. As the poster above said 'EQ1, ain't broke don't fix etc'
I just keep changing my thoughts on it and I wonder how the devs are even able to make these decisions. How much do the argue these points?
Zorkon said:disposalist said:I like the idea of XP/loot being related to how well you play and how well you integrate with your group, not on whether or not you remembered to visit a vendor or trade with a crafter.
I'd like to note your use of the word "play" here. This sounds like your idea of playing a MMORPG is only the battle. Myself I'm hoping for and expecting so much more out of Pantheon. I want the game play to include the travel time, the fishing time, the crafting time, the scouting new areas. ALL these have an added level of competence if the player heads out with or without food and drink.
For some of us there is much more to "play" in a RPG than just another shoot'em up arcade game.
I take your point and I think I understand, but I was specifically worried about XP/loot being potentially so directly effected by food/drink, not suggesting the whole game should be combat. Some people were suggesting food/drink could be used to buff mana regen or to regain mana. It would effectively be like having XP potions and would be somewhat like pay2win, albeit with in-game currency, if better (more expensive) food/drink gave more mana.
Of course game play should include things other than combat and food should effect those things. I'd much prefer food be more interesting and meaningful than just a mana buff.
Need to cross The Cursed Desert? Maybe the Holy Sweetwater at the Fire God Shrine would help?
Need to resist the mind control of the Flayer King? I've heard the magical mushroom broth the Seven Witches brew could help.
Need to adventure in the Frost Queen's Tundra? Maybe something as simple as a hearty hot meal will give enough cold resistance to reach somewhere sheltered there?
You get the idea.
Just not "no food = no XP" and "some food = some XP" and "good food = better XP". I think it's a boring and unhealthy paradigm.
I have to say, as for my "idea of playing a MMORPG is only the battle"? No, but, pretty much all material progression and reward is combat-related in most fantasy games, yes. Defeat a dragon. Gain a level. Loot it's hoard. It's the way Fantasy RPGs have always been since D&D and Fighting Fantasy books. Even fantasy films and books tend to be mostly about combat ability and wars. Did the hero have a magical spoon that helped cook his/her way to his destiny? Or was it a sword? Sure them ring-toting hobbits didn't do much killing, but that's because all thier friends slaughtered anything that came near ;^)
The reason RPGs are so much better than other genres is the depth of immersion they enable through various aspects, not all of which are combat related, yes, but the core is pretty much about combat. Pantheon will be too.
Tigersin said:...If I'm going into a snowy area, I want to carry a container of hot soup.
If I'm going into a desert, I want to carry some thirst quenching melons.
If I'm going under water, I want a stack of water breathing gum weed....
I swear I hadn't read you post when I made my previous one. Great minds think alike!
disposalist said:Tigersin said:...If I'm going into a snowy area, I want to carry a container of hot soup.
If I'm going into a desert, I want to carry some thirst quenching melons.
If I'm going under water, I want a stack of water breathing gum weed....I swear I hadn't read you post when I made my previous one. Great minds think alike!
If you read a little further back, I had already mentioned the possibility of crafted foods being somewhat beneficial (albeit lesser) when dealing with the climate system. Anyhow, food/water need to matter being that this is going to be an immersive, mmorpg. Food/water need to matter for hp/mana to regen. Crafted food, cheaper merchant food/water (like rations), and summoned food/water (via Summoner) all need to be matter and play a role in this environment. They matter because they are needed.
Tanix said:Tigersin said:It really is more simple than many pages of arguing. Discussing hunger alone is pointless because if it is only a matter of hunger/thirst, we are talking about a chore like armor/weapon repair.
If we are to craft food and drink, they should be beneficial.
If food and drink aren't beneficial, don't bother putting them in the game.I believe 'just how beneficial' is the debate to have but some the arguments touch on the question of 'should we even have food in the game?'
We are going in circles a bit but that happens often and sometimes it helps focus the argument as the circle gets smaller. Sometimes it never gets smaller. Still a worthwhile debate imo. Circular reasoning is the best reasoning because it is circular.I think the issue here is in perspective of "beneficial". I see having to have food to keep at a normal state as being "beneficial" while others see only "bonuses" as being such. If having to have food/water in order to keep from entering starving/thirst state which reduces and ultimately stops regen of health/mana, then would not food/water be "beneficial"? Or must everything that is considered a "benefit" be a priasing, a pat on the back, a "bonus" to be considered beneficial?
I agree with you there and I think there is a distinct difference with the concept of "no drink = no mana" and "better drink = better mana". With the first concept, you have something that is a survival thing. If you want to adventure away from sources of food/water, you need to get supplies, manage your bags, plan your journey, etc. and I've nothing against that - it's an adventure staple to have to plan to survive the journey.
The whole "better food/drink = better health/mana" is what I worry about. We all know that mana regen (and health regen to a lesser extent) is directly related to the rate at which to can kill and get XP and loot. May as well sell double-XP potions and be honest about it.
Food/drink as a survival staple? Sure. Better food/drink means it takes up less bag space and lasts longer? Yeah maybe. Different food/drink helps in different environments and situations? Interesting if not too powerful and suits the PvEnvironment that Pantheon is looking to do. Better food means huge general buffs? Hmm. Starting to replace skill or playing technique or whatever you call it with something that is looking like easy click-to-win potions. Not such a good idea.
Re. the whole concept of whether food/drink be seen as beneficial rather than stopping you die? *shrug* It's just mental gymnastics and 'flavour' really. I don't really care, but I prefer my RPGs to be a tad on the gritty and dark side, so I'm happy with the "you must eat or will starve" rather than "you can ignore food except as a bonus/buff". Having said that, I find it very annoying when a Druid or a Hobbit somehow knows how to drink from a river, but my Ogre Warrior doesn't! Perhaps basic subsistence foraging could be a default for 'adventurer' - so no starving *to death* - but, as I said, that statistical baseline for what food/drink (or lack of it) means is just mental gymnastics and flavour preference in the end.
Syrif said:disposalist said:Tigersin said:...If I'm going into a snowy area, I want to carry a container of hot soup.
If I'm going into a desert, I want to carry some thirst quenching melons.
If I'm going under water, I want a stack of water breathing gum weed....I swear I hadn't read you post when I made my previous one. Great minds think alike!
If you read a little further back, I had already mentioned the possibility of crafted foods being somewhat beneficial (albeit lesser) when dealing with the climate system. Anyhow, food/water need to matter being that this is going to be an immersive, mmorpg. Food/water need to matter for hp/mana to regen. Crafted food, cheaper merchant food/water (like rations), and summoned food/water (via Summoner) all need to be matter and play a role in this environment. They matter because they are needed.
Yes I did see that - some great thoughts re. relating food/drink to environmental resistances, it's just Tigersin and I picked almost exactly the same particular examples hehe.
Tanix said:OneADSeven,
Your entire focus isn't a sublayer, it is a main layer. Your implementation would require food/water be a main driving focus to play where the player spends a large percentage of their time managing it (ie making it a focal point).
Please see my previous post where I asked "What early comment?" Please be specific.
Here are some examples of your previous comments:
Tanix said:I prefer food/water to be more of a "required" element to stay at nominal ability rather than one that provides "bonus" ability. Part of the thing with EQ, that while food/water did not do much other than keep you from entering a non-medding state, it did require use bag space, which was initially at a premium. Giving up two bag spaces for food storage was a huge sacrafice in early EQ, so it was a nice balancing concept.
Tanix said:It isn't about "realism", it is about game play. Being required to manage a food/water resource provides elements of game play. If you have limited storage, this takes up space so it is a componet of that game play. This also plays into allowing various food to be longer lasting over time. If weight is an element of gameplay, food/water can have weight, which would limit how much you could carry (ie if you have a low strength/endurance and stock up too much, it might reduce your run speed, attack speed, etc..). This would give progression play to allowing lighter food/drink items to be made which helps in this area.
Then you have the element of the negative effect of not drinking/eating. So, lets say when you are well fed/hydrated you regen at a base rate, but... if you begin to get hungry/thirsty it eventually progresses where your regen rate for health/mana slows to a halt. This provides the need to manage food, space, and weight while you adventure. It makes having the ability to get to areas to replenish these stocks important (long journeys into the wild become... measured by this limitation) and having spells/abilties/skills that aid in this become another element of play, layering on to the entire experience, management and process of character experience in the world.
Tanix said:For instance, if you have weight, limited bag space, and lacking food/water has a negative result, then yes... it has an effect on tactical decisions as it will reduce health and mana regen rates, it will cause the player to consider what they can carry based on space and weight.So yes, it does require the player to make a form of tactical decision and I have many times in EQ seen people who ignored carrying food beg and plead from other players to give them some because they no longer could regen in resting.
Tanix said:So you never met anyone in an EQ like system who didn’t dismiss the system? You know, because that is… because… dismissing such a system would be not a wise solution?
What am I missing here? You have been consistent in suggesting that managing food should be needed/required. In my eyes, that makes it a focal point, or a "main driving focus to play." If players are required to do something then it demands focus, even if it's super trivial and boring. You have stated multiple times now that my implementation would require food/drink to be a main driving focus to play. How so? Again, please be specific. I have been very consistent in saying that food should be optional. It should be treated as a consumable sub-layer of overall power progression. I went out of my way to explain the difference between commodities and specialized products and why I prefer food/drink to fall in the latter category. If food is viewed as a game requirement then it will likely be a vendored commodity. That is the main issue I have with your implementation. I see nothing wrong with food being viewed as required as long as it's an emergent social construct (as determined by players) rather than an element of tedious game design. Players should want food rather than need it. When it comes to economics, "want" is a step above "need" -- it's something that people desire to have regardless of whether or not they can obtain it.
When you think about the basic needs of real life, please consider the many programs that offer assistance for housing/clothing/food/healthcare. These programs exist because they are all essential components of life. I do not want food to be treated as such in Terminus, and that's what the NPC Vendor selling food represents to me. I want food to be a major component of the player driven economy, obtained exclusively through player interaction. If food is viewed as a "want" rather than a "need" then it is far more likely that we get to see that happen. If it ends up being a "need" then we'll probably see countless vendors in the world selling tiers of bread/water. I just don't understand why people think that "hunger" is a good mechanic in an MMO when it's so easily overcome by purchasing what are typically the cheapest items available, (stale bread and water) -- it's nothing but tedium in my eyes. It's boring and dreadful. So every player commits to a "huge sacrifice" of two inventory slots and replenishes their stacks whenever they vendor. I could see myself doing that a few thousand times without thinking twice about it. That's the worst kind of focal point I can think of while playing a game. I think the main point of contention here is that I view a player-driven economy as key/essential to Pantheon whereas you feel the opposite. You have explained your rationale that any challenge that can be overcome by currency is obsolete due to the existence of RMT. If players can purchase bigger bags, or food that weighs less, wouldn't these gameplay components you speak of be considered trivial?
Tigersin said:Tanix said:I think the issue here is in perspective of "beneficial". I see having to have food to keep at a normal state as being "beneficial" while others see only "bonuses" as being such. If having to have food/water in order to keep from entering starving/thirst state which reduces and ultimately stops regen of health/mana, then would not food/water be "beneficial"? Or must everything that is considered a "benefit" be a priasing, a pat on the back, a "bonus" to be considered beneficial?
That's a good point. I didn't think the word would have perspectives but in a way it does, as you say. So, sure.
Originally, I said "Discussing hunger alone is pointless because if it is only a matter of hunger/thirst, we are talking about a chore like armor/weapon repair."
I can rephrase it: If the devs consider maintenance of weapon and armor a chore, why shouldn't they consider carrying stacks of items just to play your hero at a NORMAL state a chore?
What that means is that I believe carrying around 4 stacks of IDCWTF all the time just for the sake of having IDCWTF in the game is pointless as far as I am concerned. I'd like to carry food based on what it does for me.
If I'm going into a snowy area, I want to carry a container of hot soup.
If I'm going into a desert, I want to carry some thirst quenching melons.
If I'm going under water, I want a stack of water breathing gum weed.
Don't make me carry Wander Bread and Cruel Aid just so that I can play my level 15 hero and not be punished.
I mean.. alright I'm already editing this.. what is the penalty in the desert if I don't have those melons? I suppose the environmental effects, perhaps even loss of HP or a lower HP cap. So I am OK with punishment for not having food if the punshiment is from environments.
I just don't know about the qeynos hills kind of zone, needing to have bread and water. For the record... I am OK either way. Even if we need bread and water to keep regenerating HP and Res. I'll be fine with it. As the poster above said 'EQ1, ain't broke don't fix etc'
I just keep changing my thoughts on it and I wonder how the devs are even able to make these decisions. How much do the argue these points?
If we apply that logic it can be extended to pretty much any issue of character mangagement to then argue for the need to dismiss it. With the repair issue, I think its issue was that it was a system centered around a death penalty, which I think they already have focuses on such systems in place. Adding repairing items/weapons on top of the existing penalty would be overkill. Also, I think repairing items works better in a system that has non-perm items that can eventually break and degrade. That system I don't think fits well with long term development/play of this nature. Spending 100's of hours to obtain an item knowing that it will go away over a period of time is a bit... demoralizing I think in such play. Works well in faster reward systems, but then the point of those systems is the cycle of regearing.
Additional elements to the complexity of food and water could be an interesting implementation, but at the same time it needs to not overshadow the game, forcing it to be the focal point. The reason I liked the EQ version of this was that depending on your class, you could ignore food/water to some extent, but it would slowly become an issue in certain situations. For some classes, casters... water was extremely important in order to be able to regen their mana back. For classes like monks, food was important because your regen rate combined with your ability to use bandages allowed you to greatly lessen your down time. Over all though, the system was not overly complex, but did provide a layer that had positives and negatives depending on class and situation.
I like the idea for more complex uses of foods, providing it does not detract from the overall exploration/adventure game play. Maganging the character is an important process of role playing, but I think there is a balance between basic management and micro-management, which we can easily get into if we aren't careful with the system.
Tanix said:If we apply that logic it can be extended to pretty much any issue of character mangagement to then argue for the need to dismiss it.
This might actually be my case. I don't like much character management for normal operation. I'd happily make exceptions for challenging situations.
That's nice and concise. Thanks!
I think it's fair to expect character management, of course. I'll deal with it. I get where you're coming from. :)
Tanix said:oneADseven,
Not going to get baited into a huge circular argument with you.
That's because you make stuff up as you go along. You have a habit of contradicting yourself and when asked to clarify an unsubstantiated position you decide it's time to walk away. As I mentioned previously, my suggestion has always been that food would be considered a sub-layer of gameplay. I was very clear in saying that food should not function as it does in a survival game but you insist that I said otherwise.
Tanix said:As for food as a surivival thing, the point is you are then making food a primary focus of play (in an RPG, the point is adventure, exploration, developing the character in the world and defeating the obstacles, not focusing on eating/drinking which is what a survival genre is focused on "surviving"). If a player does not eat in your system, they die (game over). This makes food/water a primary focus and concern in play. My point was that the system should be a sub layer, not a mandatory means in terms of penalty. Food/Water is required to be at a "normal" state. If a player runs out, after a time when they start to get hungry they begin to not regen health (food), mana (water). The player can continue to play in a limited capacity, but the "game" doesn't end as it would in a surivial game.
The highlighted section is something that you made up. The premise of your argument is that "my system" causes food to be a "primary focus and concern in play." I refuted that and tried to rationalize my position. I have asked you to clarify what gameplay element you're talking about and your response was "Ok I was thinking of your early comments about food requirements, not your recent discussion then." What early comment? The reality is that "your system" (you have repeatedly suggested that players should be required to manage food, how that requirement is considered an element of gameplay that cannot be dismissed, etc) is far more resemblant of the issues you are citing than mine is. If a player does not eat in your system, they cannot function normally. This makes food/water a primary focus and concern in play. You can't seem to make up your mind on whether you want food to be a sub-layer or a focal point, or what those things even are.
Let's compare that first quote with this other one from you:
Tanix said:The point is, at the very basics, having food/water is a “need” to function as “normal” and that is a reasonable means of RPG balance. I mean, I understand people arguing the point of detrimental aspects (ie you don’t eat/drink, you die), but this is the balance. Eating/drinking is a natural form of the characters requirements and not killing them for avoiding such is well within bounds of being reasonable. Your argument goes on to claim they should be rewarded for not doing such, or given a pass for ignoring such responsibility. Understandable in an arcade game which focuses on other elements of play, but not one that purports to promote character development.
So requiring players to manage food because they "need" it is a reasonable means of RPG balance. But you also said that the focus of play in an RPG should be based on adventure, exploration, and character development ... not needing to focus on eating/drinking as that kind of mechanic is more suited for a survival game. This causes me to reflect on some of your previous statements on other threads:
Tanix said:False summary which leads to a straw man.
You don't attend to my actual points, you just "assume" what you want to think I said, then attend to the argument as you see fit. If you actually "quoted" what I said, then you would have to be responsible for the context as I presented it. You are ignorant of EQ and also apply the same false summaries and lack of understanding to your evaluation of it as you do the discusions made.
There is no discussion with you on the topics presented because you are here to "win" for your opinon, not defend a legitimate point in your premise.
Tanix said:You don't refute anything. All you do is keep restating your premise without support as if by doing so it validates it.
Tanix said:Your premise is invalid, I showed it to be so.
Tanix said:I think your argument is invalidated by the very basis of actual facts and history.
Tanix said:True, but we all are required to use words properly to achieve understanding, otherwise our message is lost. Them ignorantly using a term, then trying to defend it as acceptable is not what I would call genuinely attempting to communicate.
Tanix said:You seem to be oblivious of your own words, acting as if somehow you are now the victim here. This is what someone who is void of tact and social awareness is, it is called a social moron. They start insulting then act surprised when people call them out on it only to play the victim when pressed on the issue.
Practice what you preach, please. There is no consistency in your logic and no justification in your claims. You don't attend to my actual points, you just "assume" what you want to think I said, and then attend to the argument as you see fit. It's a classic example of strawman fallacy and that appears to be a recurring pattern with you.
Here's my two cents: I don't believe food/drink should be required in order to play your character. There should be basic foods/drinks that expedites your health/mana regenaration respectively, with the benefit of higher level foods/drinks giving a temporary buff to a given stat. My base for "classic MMO gameplay" was EQOA and in that game, food/water was nice to have so that you could regen. your health or mana in between pulls, but it was certainly not required and I don't recall it even giving any extra benefits. That functionality/purpose for food/water was fine in my opinion, though I do like the added bonus of higher level food giving buffs of some sort. I think that gives it a bit more variation in wanting to buy different foods for different situations. But to say that food/water would be required in a sense to even play your character is a bit too far.
Neyos said:Here's my two cents: I don't believe food/drink should be required in order to play your character. There should be basic foods/drinks that expedites your health/mana regenaration respectively, with the benefit of higher level foods/drinks giving a temporary buff to a given stat.
This is how modern MMOs handle it.
Neyos said:My base for "classic MMO gameplay" was EQOA and in that game, food/water was nice to have so that you could regen. your health or mana in between pulls, but it was certainly not required and I don't recall it even giving any extra benefits. That functionality/purpose for food/water was fine in my opinion, though I do like the added bonus of higher level food giving buffs of some sort. I think that gives it a bit more variation in wanting to buy different foods for different situations. But to say that food/water would be required in a sense to even play your character is a bit too far.
Required only in that EQ required it. I didn't play EQOA, but I do know it did not contain many of the "hardship" features that were common in PC EQ. That said, EQ did require you have food/water to regen. You could ignore it, not eat/drink but eventually you would reach a state where you could never regen health or mana, which without spells, aids, etc... made game play impractical. Point was, while not "life threatening", it was important and did require you have it to progress through the game normally.
Up until now I haven't posted in this thread because I honestly wasn't sure how I would want food/drink to work in game. As a crafter, I definitely want to see food/drink as an output of crafting, and due to that, I definitely want there to be a large variety of potential food/drink that can be created. But how to make it all useful?
However, after reading Tigersin's and Disposalists's posts above, I feel a little bit closer to an idea of my own now. Not all the way there - there is still so much we do not know about stats and modifiers in Pantheon. But close enough to post something, anyway.
So, here's what I think I would like to see. My intent with this is to do the following:
1) Insure that there can be a large variety of food and drink that offers meaningful choices to players
2) Insure that food/drink is beneficial enough to not be seen as a chore or tax, but still consequential enough that it can't simply be ignored or used only for boss/raiding situations.
3) Promote socialization and meaningful downtime, and provide hooks for some other interesting/supporting systems
Trail Rations
As with EQ, hunger and thirst affect passive regeneration rates. Hunger should probably affect hp regen, and thirst should affect mana/stamina regen (or any other "primary" resource that each class uses in order to fire abilities). You carry trail rations (which include portable beverages) with you in order to prevent hunger/thirst from taking hold. These are held in your inventory and "used" automatically when your character becomes hungry or thirsty.
Food/drink that qualifies as Trail Rations has the following properties:
Duration: anywhere from 0:15 (15 minutes) to 1:30 (90 minutes).
Stat Modifiers: minor buff to character attributes or stats that's activated when the food/drink is consumed. Numbers should be lower than player-cast buffs or alchemist potions, but still provide a minor boost that stacks with other effects. Only one or two stats may be affected at a time. Duration of the buff is equivalent to the duration of the food/drink. Food/drink are handled separately, so you can have both a food buff and a drink buff active.
Meals
Meals are food/drink that provide larger and more numerous beneficial effects than trail rations but may only be consumed in an inn, tavern, or campsite. They take a small amount of time to consume (probably a 60-120 second activation time) rather than being activated instantly like trail rations. When consumed, they apply a "greater" food/drink buff to characters. Ideally, meals would be used by players before heading out on an adventure, although the ability to use a campsite means that they could be refreshed or used along the way.
Meals have the following properties:
Duration: anywhere from 1:30 to 3:00 (90 minutes to 3 hours)
Stat Modifiers: Meals can provide a moderate boost to up to 5 stats or attributes for the duration of the effect. This effect overwrites both food and drink buffs from trail rations, however - so while the meal effect is active, you can't add an additional effect from trail rations.
Places where meals can be used: Inns and taverns are self explanatory and can include NPC structures as well as player-owned buildings (once housing becomes available). Campsites are temporary, crafted objects that can be placed in open spaces within the world - literally, a campfire and and some bedrolls or a tent or two. Campsites last for a few minutes (probably up to 15 minutes for the largest campsites) but allow meals to be consumed, and may allow other "in town" abilities to be used as well. In addition, placing a campsite prevents monster spawns in its immediate area, although monsters could still path through the campsite from outside. Outdoors, campsites can be placed in most "open" areas that aren't inhabited by sentient NPCs. Inside caves and structures, campsites may only be placable in specific places or rooms.
Examples:
Bacon Sandwich - Trail Ration - 0:45 duration, +2 Str/+1 Sta
Flask of Ale - Trail Ration - 0:30 duration, +1 Con/+1 Cha
Adventurer's Roast, Garden Vegetables, and Red Wine - Meal - 2:00 duration, +4 Str/+5 Con/+3 Wis/+10 Cold Resistance
Small Campsite - 5 minute duration, places a campfire and some bedrolls
Deluxe Campsite - 15 minute duration, includes a large campfire, some tents, and some log benches that people can sit on.
I have further thoughts on provisioner crafting as a result of thinking this idea through now, but that's for a different thread :)
One thing I want people to consider.
In EQ on release, a +1 stat was significant. Itemization of magic items were limited and small bonuses were huge. If food has bonuses of such nature, what is the point? Either the food buffs offer "insignificant" rewards, marginal benefits... or they are significant. If they are significant, then are they spells and do we design the game around not only spell casters providing buffs, but food buffs as well? If a fight can be noticably changed by having food buffs, then is not the food buff a requirement? If it is, then are we not saying all food buffs are required to beat a fight? If we are not, are we allowing food buffs to make fights "easy"?
See, I never understood the "food buff" concept. Either it is needed, or it is not. If it is needed, then all MUST buy food to excel and if it is not, then we create a means to encounters are made "easier" by people who horde a bunch of garbage buffs to beat encounters.
I see no benefit in buff based food, only imbalances in game play.