Raidil said: So was doing a little thinking here on crafting. So hunger if you didn't have food and water your toon would loose stamina and stop regenerating how and mana. That kinda normal. but what if you also started to loose strength and once stamina and strength hit half way your would start negative regeneration so looseing how and mana. And what I was think is that as u level up yo needed hardier food to fill up so like bread and water maybe some cheap stew only gave 1-3 points. To hunger and not being able to buy more thin a 3point food from a vendor anything better must be player made. And let's say your appetite increase as you level up. If this was the case you'd go through food three times faster if all you bought was a cheap vendor stuff as you can levels. Making a big market for craft food. Let's say hunger for an hour at lv 1 is only point , lv 2 is 2points ect.. what's your thoughts
We play MMOs to escape and have fun, not eat and **** every 10 minutes or we die or lose stats.
Survival MMOs are a chore and i cant enjoy them.
Managing food and water in EQ was trivial, and like most tradeskills, virtually no game makes cooking/baking/brewing meaningful or worthwhile. A minor stat buff is meh.
Imagine a beverage that stacked with Clarity, but only lasted 15 minutes and could only be made by high end brewers? Imagine a food that gave HP regen that stacked with HoTs, but again, last only 15 minutes and used rare materials only found in dungeons, high end fishing, etc?
The game can be balanced around it. There are things like tradeskill bags, tradeskill banks/chests, etc. Resource management isn't all that tough.
Raidil brings up a bunch of excellent points.
Venjenz said:Managing food and water in EQ was trivial, and like most tradeskills, virtually no game makes cooking/baking/brewing meaningful or worthwhile. A minor stat buff is meh.
Imagine a beverage that stacked with Clarity, but only lasted 15 minutes and could only be made by high end brewers? Imagine a food that gave HP regen that stacked with HoTs, but again, last only 15 minutes and used rare materials only found in dungeons, high end fishing, etc?
The game can be balanced around it. There are things like tradeskill bags, tradeskill banks/chests, etc. Resource management isn't all that tough.
Raidil brings up a bunch of excellent points.
Problem with food/potion buffs is it invalidates the base class that provides such. In early EQ it worked because the potions like that were enormously expensive to make and so they were extremely situational in use. Though, like EQ any game that bases such on a monetary restriction ends up not being one over time.
I prefer food/water to be more of a "required" element to stay at nominal ability rather than one that provides "bonus" ability. Part of the thing with EQ, that while food/water did not do much other than keep you from entering a non-medding state, it did require use bag space, which was initially at a premium. Giving up two bag spaces for food storage was a huge sacrafice in early EQ, so it was a nice balancing concept.
I think for such things to have meaning, there has to be other sub systems that coordinate with each other (limited bag space, weight restrictions, etc...) which all have negative effects on things like regening, running speed, etc.... A system with numerous counter checks as such make for a good RPG progression system in my opinoin.
There needs to be a penalty like EQ for not having food and water in inventory; none or reduced hp/mana regen and slower movement (fatigue) of some sort.
We don‘t need players running around in god mode. It’s not like Pantheon is being made by the ppl who made WoW or ff or something. Let’s leave the wow/ff crap in the crap.
I honestly don't see how having food/water as a required item adds anything to the game. Money matters early on but then after that it's completely pointless. There is no choice on if you should or shouldn't buy food, you just do. You HAVE to buy food. That doesn't add to the game. There is no tactical decision as to if you should or shouldn't buy food if it is a required item. I can't think of any other item in a MMO I've played that was required and I can't think of any other MMO that required food/water. Yes I haven't played every MMO but I've played alot.
Having food that gives a +1 to stam or something I'm all for. I just don't see the benefit of having it required for HP/Mana/Stam regen. It doesn't make the game harder, it doesn't make the game any more challenging, it doesn't make the game more social. Yes WoW didn't have food... and dozens of other MMO's didn't have food as a REQUIRED item.
FFXI had an incredibly robust food/drink system and it played a major role in the economy. http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/food.php
Players weren't required to use food/drink but it was considered common courtesy to have a supply of each if you were playing in a group. Food offered a variety of benefits and it tended to be a bit expensive. I believe all of it was player crafted. If you were playing in an XP group then it was common for everybody to use it if you knew the group would last.
I honestly don’t care too much about how food/drink works, what benefits it provides, how it is made/acquired, etc. so long as failure to eat/drink cannot directly lead to the death of a character. If I’m standing around for days at a time in a city trading, crafting, decorating my guild hall, or just socializing, I don’t want to have continually consume food and beverage in order not to die. Just my two coppers...
Making food mandatory just adds another tedious mechanic to the game. It doesnt add depth or anything. In eq all you did was purchase a stack of iron rations and water flasks. Theres other areas that are better suited to increase difficulty.
Buff foods or stat foods. I'm ok with. But just wasting an inventory slot for random food and water is silly.
Syrif said:There needs to be a penalty like EQ for not having food and water in inventory; none or reduced hp/mana regen and slower movement (fatigue) of some sort.
We don‘t need players running around in god mode. It’s not like Pantheon is being made by the ppl who made WoW or ff or something. Let’s leave the wow/ff crap in the crap.
You cant have a hybrid survival MMO, its just silly.
Needing to eat or drink, what about being hot or cold or dying from a single hit as you would realistically.
High fantasy game, we play to enjoy the word and content, not make sure our blood sugar is stable.
No survival mmo has ever done it right, nor will they.
Grimseethe said:Syrif said:There needs to be a penalty like EQ for not having food and water in inventory; none or reduced hp/mana regen and slower movement (fatigue) of some sort.
We don‘t need players running around in god mode. It’s not like Pantheon is being made by the ppl who made WoW or ff or something. Let’s leave the wow/ff crap in the crap.
Oh no no, i could not agree less.
Not having to eat or drink hardly makes it god mode.You cant have a hybrid survival MMO, its just silly.
Needing to eat or drink, what about being hot or cold or dying from a single hit as you would realistically.
High fantasy game, we play to enjoy the word and content, not make sure our blood sugar is stable.
No survival mmo has ever done it right, nor will they.
It isn't about "realism", it is about game play. Being required to manage a food/water resource provides elements of game play. If you have limited storage, this takes up space so it is a componet of that game play. This also plays into allowing various food to be longer lasting over time. If weight is an element of gameplay, food/water can have weight, which would limit how much you could carry (ie if you have a low strength/endurance and stock up too much, it might reduce your run speed, attack speed, etc..). This would give progression play to allowing lighter food/drink items to be made which helps in this area.
Then you have the element of the negative effect of not drinking/eating. So, lets say when you are well fed/hydrated you regen at a base rate, but... if you begin to get hungry/thirsty it eventually progresses where your regen rate for health/mana slows to a halt. This provides the need to manage food, space, and weight while you adventure. It makes having the ability to get to areas to replenish these stocks important (long journeys into the wild become... measured by this limitation) and having spells/abilties/skills that aid in this become another element of play, layering on to the entire experience, management and process of character experience in the world.
Keep in mind, in terms of game play, many subtle elements have an effect on other elements of play and layer to create a certain type of concept of play.
Tanix said:Dissolution said:Raidil said: Resource Management has always been part of high fantasy look at old school d&d and ultima online. Even wow . Ever quest ddo even has such. Part of growing your toon is gaining bags buy fighting for. No one said you had to cook u can get some one else to and just buy eq had fletching to make arrows . All this stuff can make a market now depending on how they do it the could do stacks of 10,20,50,100,1000 so you may loose 2 slot for food. And if you uses range you loose 1 for arrows or more depending. But what this could do so make it so there is a market to buy and sell and it makes coin found a needed resource.I get it. I understand resource management and agree that it should be in to an extent. I make the comment about cooking dinner because I am a smart@ss. I can grasp how having food will benefit my health and mana regeneration, thats sort of common. Having the food and water then proves a benefit because it is essentially a health and mana regen buff.
Now, if I dont have food and water and it stops shop because Im losing health and mana and gets into all the survival aspects of needing it I am just not personally excited about it. I like your idea, but like it better in the context that having the food and drink sink is focused on the benefits of having it as opposed to the detrimental effects of not having it. If I run out of food and drink while deep in a dungeon I would rather the impact is on the hit to health and mana regen then have to say "ok..sessions over" because I need to go cook dinner or I'm going to drain the healer of mana having to heal me up from hunger.
And I know...you should have thought about it in advance and its irresponsible not to have gone shopping and prepare dinner before the fight and been prepared to eat and drink for X hours, but thats still my feeling on it. Again, not bashing the idea, just like the idea in a slightly different context.
Of the different positions here I see food/water as:
1: Buff when used
2: normal state when used
3: debuff when not used.
WE see 1) a lot in modern MMOs. Food/water is not required, it is a buff, an enhancer to the system. Players regen HP and Mana regardless and the food/water is used as a means to fast track the down time.
With 2) this was more EQ like. Food /Water is not "required" in that it won't kill you if you don't have it, but... it will cause base regens to go to a zero state. That is, while being fed/hydrated a players HP/Mana will come back while sitting/resting slowly over time, however if the player goes into a hunger/thrist state that basic regen is lost and the player will no longer gain HP/Mana back when resting. So... a caster who ignores having water will eventually not be able to regen mana (unless they have a special item like Flowing thought) and all players who do not have food will have to be healed as they will not gain back HP over time either.
Finally 3) which is the "survival game" debuff style. A player must eat/drink or they will not only have stats/abilities which will degrade, but they will eventually die from lack of food/water.
Of the three, I prefer 2) due to its focus and balance. I have played surivival games before and I do see merit in those food systems, but they really are a different focus and style of play in the game. Could 3) work in an MMO today? Sure... I think it could, but... it "may" be taking too much focus off of the over all system by having it. I think it would be interesting to try though, to see how much of a problem it causes in game play. It may be a nice obstacle, or it may be so much that players focus on it to greatly.
I think that is why they picked 2) for EQ as it had a balance in play as a required element to succeed, but not an absolute one (ie oops, forgot food... you die, corpse run). It might be too much of an obstacle in play.
As for 1) I really don't like the "Buff" fast forward style of system that I see in games like WoW. I like obstacles, balance properly, but obstacles, not a bonus for everything I do.
I prefer option 3, but even going with option 2 these days is gonna be considered "extreme" for younger gamers. The irony of going with option 1 is that the food buffs really are not optional in progression raid content so everybody was eating food before fights in WoW raids. Only the casual players who did not care about having good stats would go without food buffs, and usually it didn't matter much in WoW since most of the overworld content was laughably easy and a player never needed to enter a dungeon (where mobs could actually kill you) to hit max level. WoW started a trend I greatly dislike: endless carrots and no stick. While I highly doubt Pantheon is going to be as punishing as EQ was I am hoping they at least bring back the stick, I'm willing to bet they will go with option 1 btw since even Vanguard didn't have mandatory food/water.
You could add any feature and say "its gameplay" that doesn't make it a good feature. Does using food require the player to make any form of tacitcal decission? If it's a required baseline item then the answer is no. Everyone will have to have food. That doesn't make the game more engaging.
EppE said:You could add any feature and say "its gameplay" that doesn't make it a good feature. Does using food require the player to make any form of tacitcal decission? If it's a required baseline item then the answer is no. Everyone will have to have food. That doesn't make the game more engaging.
Yes, it does...
For instance, if you have weight, limited bag space, and lacking food/water has a negative result, then yes... it has an effect on tactical decisions as it will reduce health and mana regen rates, it will cause the player to consider what they can carry based on space and weight. So yes, it does require the player to make a form of tactical decision and I have many times in EQ seen people who ignored carrying food beg and plead from other players to give them some because they no longer could regen in resting.
Tanix said:EppE said:You could add any feature and say "its gameplay" that doesn't make it a good feature. Does using food require the player to make any form of tacitcal decission? If it's a required baseline item then the answer is no. Everyone will have to have food. That doesn't make the game more engaging.
Yes, it does...
For instance, if you have weight, limited bag space, and lacking food/water has a negative result, then yes... it has an effect on tactical decisions as it will reduce health and mana regen rates, it will cause the player to consider what they can carry based on space and weight. So yes, it does require the player to make a form of tactical decision and I have many times in EQ seen people who ignored carrying food beg and plead from other players to give them some because they no longer could regen in resting.
I never met anyone in all my time playing who didn't carry food. If they ran out they'd beg for some or if it was a class that summoned food that is how they got food. Having food that makes the baseline regen work is not a tactical decission. Monks were the only classes in EQ that had a strict weight limit and due to the role of puller they needed the HP regen arguably more than anyone.
Having food make you have "normal" regen rates is not a tactical decission. It is not an engaging system. It doesn't make the game harder or more enjoyable. It becomes a no brain "i'm in town buy food". At most you would decide on how many stacks to buy.
Raidil said: Weather people like it or not food is already slated for the game how it's used is a different matter use of it why I started this thread. So bring to light of making use of this to gain something like hunger to make player made stuff more usesfull as I hope other crafts will be useful. Food will be part of the trade skill of a provisioner so.. mute point on having to deal with it sorry guys you will have to but how game the game use this to generate an economic value and what could you gain and penalty be for not having
I'm for food that gives minor stat boosts. That requires the player to make a tactical decission as to what is best for their role or class. It also allows a market around people who make this type of food to develop. Do I want +stam food or +str food type thing. I would even be okay with food that gave more regen than normal.
I'm just 100% oppossed to a player not being able to regen HP/Stam/Mana without it.
EppE said:Tanix said:EppE said:You could add any feature and say "its gameplay" that doesn't make it a good feature. Does using food require the player to make any form of tacitcal decission? If it's a required baseline item then the answer is no. Everyone will have to have food. That doesn't make the game more engaging.
Yes, it does…
For instance, if you have weight, limited bag space, and lacking food/water has a negative result, then yes... it has an effect on tactical decisions as it will reduce health and mana regen rates, it will cause the player to consider what they can carry based on space and weight. So yes, it does require the player to make a form of tactical decision and I have many times in EQ seen people who ignored carrying food beg and plead from other players to give them some because they no longer could regen in resting.
I never met anyone in all my time playing who didn't carry food. If they ran out they'd beg for some or if it was a class that summoned food that is how they got food. Having food that makes the baseline regen work is not a tactical decission. Monks were the only classes in EQ that had a strict weight limit and due to the role of puller they needed the HP regen arguably more than anyone.
So you never met anyone in an EQ like system who didn’t dismiss the system? You know, because that is… because… dismissing such a system would be not a wise solution?
Is your argument that some classes had to abide by weight of such specific restrictions while others did not? Not sure your argument here… you seem… to be claiming that on one hand the game play concept is irrelevant, but in another claiming it was only relevant in certain circumstances.
I am confused, is it relevant or is it not? If it is not across the board, then maybe we should make it relevant? I mean… you argument is attempting to claim that such features should not exist because they provide no relevance, so maybe… the solution is that we apply them so they do?
Or… maybe.. that is exactly what you argue against? So are you ok with food/water having significant effects on play, and being a need, or you saying you don’t don’t want them at all? So far, you are arguing that food/water is pointless in the examples we provide. Are you ok with them if they are brought to levels that YOU accept? Please explain as to what that is and why?
EppE said:Having food make you have "normal" re-gen rates is not a tactical decision. It is not an engaging system. It doesn't make the game harder or more enjoyable. It becomes a no brain "i'm in town buy food". At most you would decide on how many stacks to buy.
Actually, I disagree. It is a system of “What is needed”. You need food to live, you need water to live. You don’t have a magical fairy coming to praise you every time you drink or eat (I know some generations love to be praised for such basic functions, but realistically, the aspect of such basic processes are “you eat, you get to go on”, not “you eat, a bunch of magical faeries come out and praise you for some mundane task you completed!”.
The point is, at the very basics, having food/water is a “need” to function as “normal” and that is a reasonable means of RPG balance. I mean, I understand people arguing the point of detrimental aspects (ie you don’t eat/drink, you die), but this is the balance. Eating/drinking is a natural form of the characters requirements and not killing them for avoiding such is well within bounds of being reasonable. Your argument goes on to claim they should be rewarded for not doing such, or given a pass for ignoring such responsibility. Understandable in an arcade game which focuses on other elements of play, but not one that purports to promote character development.
EppE said:Raidil said: Weather people like it or not food is already slated for the game how it's used is a different matter use of it why I started this thread. So bring to light of making use of this to gain something like hunger to make player made stuff more usesfull as I hope other crafts will be useful. Food will be part of the trade skill of a provisioner so.. mute point on having to deal with it sorry guys you will have to but how game the game use this to generate an economic value and what could you gain and penalty be for not having
I'm for food that gives minor stat boosts. That requires the player to make a tactical decission as to what is best for their role or class. It also allows a market around people who make this type of food to develop. Do I want +stam food or +str food type thing. I would even be okay with food that gave more regen than normal.
I'm just 100% oppossed to a player not being able to regen HP/Stam/Mana without it.
Correct me if I am wrong...
You are ok with players being praised for eating, but don't want players to be penalized for not eating?
I liked EQ food and water. Was just another rpg element into the game. Whenever I saw the low hunger and food I would tell the group I am traveling with that I need to make a pit stop, or get help, finding a food vendor to stock back up on supplies. It's just another nice, not to tedious, element in the game that made me more immersed in the game. But alas, whiners will be whiners with every single little tedious detail I find on the forum.