Syrif said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:DracoKalen said:I've been in a few games with mounts and they were never "problematic" Just fun. In SOTA I have a herd, but then you can't ride them, yet.
Respectfully disagree. Just to list one - mounts have ruined class interdependence in mmorpg’s.
LOL, really. So not everyone needing a speed buff ruins class interdependence? That's am extremely poor design if one buff disrupts class interdependnce.
This game had no potions or scrolls that provided the same thing? Or rings or boots?
From what I’ve seen in mainstream mmo’s mounts are available to everyone and they provide universal, ultimate speed buff to everyone as general standard of the game. So yes, mounts (amongst other things) have ruined class interdependence in mainstream mmo’s.
So, a mount causes people to not need healers anymore? Or tanks or CC?
That's class interdependence.
Not here to argue, but to answer your question. Yes, those examples are class interdependence, but spell speed buffs (via certain classes) is class interdependence too. I will leave it at that. Cheers :)
Well not to argue but scrolls, potions,rings and boots do the same thing.
But to argue class interdependence does not hinge on one spell or ability, it's the big picture on how classes work together in a group.
SoWplz said:stellarmind said:all you guys are wrong. flying mounts ruins pvp. no flying mounts period on pvp servers.
But then you could just kill them and take their mount. Figured that would be right up your alley. Haha
why would i rob someones mount? i'm just killing them because they trampled over the herbs i was picking. i swear horses aren't the problem. it's the riders. STAY OFF THE GRASS.
@Dracokalen Jboots were rare and an annoying quest that gave an effect that was slower than SoW. It took some work. SoW potions were limited (charges) and making new ones weren’t always ideal nor available to purchase from players (they could only be player crafted). And SoW was a player buff. Those were very, very different from the universal, ultimate speed-buffed mounts that are the general norm for all players in mainstream mmo’s. You can see which model utilizes class interdependence, and which one doesn’t. Just wanted to clear up the confusion mate. Cheers :)
Syrif said:@Dracokalen Jboots were rare and an annoying quest that gave an effect that was slower than SoW.
Jboots were not rare at all. In the very early days of their introduction, yes, but not after that. Everyone had them as they were seen as a required item. Yes, the quest to get them was annoying but not in any way difficult or complex. Spoilers popped up very quickly noting exactly what NPC (in the 2 different zones the Ancient Cyclops would spawn) at what exact location was the placeholder and the fact it respawned approximately every 24 mins meant that over the course of a single real life day dozens of people could get the NoDrop quest item.
I realize that, but seriously, compare jboots back in oldschool to universal speed-enhanced mounts in mainstream today. And most definitely did not everyone have jboots back in the old school days at its prime. Later? Yes. And P99? Yes. Jboots were indeed far from common when I played in the Verant era.
@Vandraad you also forget that there was a placholder for the Ancient Cyclops...soo sometimes he wouldn't spawn at all. But very few people did have Jboots in classic due to not knowing about them, and the fact that you had to be high level to even challenge the Ancient Cyclops was even more of a barrier back then when leveling was quite long with no guides on anything.
Vandraad said:Syrif said:@Dracokalen Jboots were rare and an annoying quest that gave an effect that was slower than SoW.
Jboots were not rare at all. In the very early days of their introduction, yes, but not after that. Everyone had them as they were seen as a required item. Yes, the quest to get them was annoying but not in any way difficult or complex. Spoilers popped up very quickly noting exactly what NPC (in the 2 different zones the Ancient Cyclops would spawn) at what exact location was the placeholder and the fact it respawned approximately every 24 mins meant that over the course of a single real life day dozens of people could get the NoDrop quest item.
This may have been the case for your server, which is why I'm not calling it a lie, but it was not the case for my server. I was in a guild that downed AoW before Luclin, very few people had jboots. No one thought they were a required item. We got ports and SoWs. It was a convient item people got to say they had it but since SoW was faster no one cared.
Mount variations? I suspect in time there will be all sorts of weird and/or silly mounts, but I personally prefer keeping things more normative with horses/camels.
Mount speed? I hope it ends up in the range of +40-50% movespeed and that the speed stacks with player buffs so those speed buffs aren't really diminished.
I'd be 100% okay with a small recurring "stable fee" of some kind. It also would be pretty interesting to me if players would need to equip their mount with all sorts of different gear; while a player might be equipped to traverse (for example) a frigid environment, their mount might not have the gear to travel those zones and would need to be left behind.
Additionally I kind of hope mount(s) are locally stabled. If you dismount for a certain period of time or enter a dungeon then the mount would return to the nearest friendly stable and remain there until retreived. This would make travel decisions a little more involved: do you take a TP and save time in the short term or do you make the trek on your mount and potentially save more time in the future by having access to the extra speed while in whichever part of the world you end up.
I think IF we have Flying Mounts they should have a stamina bar. The stamina bar would reduce the distance and speed based on the weight of the rider. It would take a day and killing a Deer or Elk etc. to feed fresh meat to the mount to help it recover from the strenuous task of flying your big butt around.
I wonder if an underwater mount would be possible, we are going to have an underwater city i believe; Sea Horse or Dolphin, maybe a Big Tuna that you could eat if things go too bad ?
Skycaster said:
I wonder if an underwater mount would be possible, we are going to have an underwater city i believe; Sea Horse or Dolphin, maybe a Big Tuna that you could eat if things go too bad ?
... and now we know what happens to your mount in Skarhold if you don't pay the stabling fee. That's probably also why the butcher's shop is right next door....
Sorry, just the idea of mounts getting eaten by PCs or NPCs made me grin :P
Syrif said:@Dracokalen Jboots were rare and an annoying quest that gave an effect that was slower than SoW. It took some work. SoW potions were limited (charges) and making new ones weren’t always ideal nor available to purchase from players (they could only be player crafted). And SoW was a player buff. Those were very, very different from the universal, ultimate speed-buffed mounts that are the general norm for all players in mainstream mmo’s. You can see which model utilizes class interdependence, and which one doesn’t. Just wanted to clear up the confusion mate. Cheers :)
It's actually quite irrelevant. In the last 50 years every fantasy game from PnP to MUDDs to MMORPG have had a multitude of items that simulate one classes skill/ability and allows other unrelated classes to use those skills/ability. Potions/rings/wands/swords/cloaks, too many to list.
And your attempt at excuses from "EQ" is irrelevant, those items were there, doesn't matter what you considered their short comings they were available and used.
how about Djarn's Amethyst Ring that gives any class a haste spell to use?
DracoKalen said:how about Djarn's Amethyst Ring that gives any class a haste spell to use?
Djarn’s Amethyst Ring didn’t give haste lol (at least not during the Verant era with Brad when I played). And yet many players still didn’t have that stat ring. Rare/ultra-rare items and universal mounts I just wouldn’t put in the same category. Anyway Draco, my point about class interdependence has already been made. Respectfully agree to disagree. :)
Syrif said:Djarn’s Amethyst Rung didn’t give haste lol. And yet many players still didn’t have the stat ring. Anyway Draco, my point about class interdependence has already been made. :)
Well I guess if that's what you want to tell yourself. But it has most definitely not been made. In fact with your precious comment about this or that being available you have proven yourself false. Plus other EQ players verified the items were more prevalent than you stated.
And as I said before interdependence does not hinge on 1 skill or another. It's how classes CLASSES interact with each other.
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:Djarn’s Amethyst Ring didn’t give haste lol (at least not during the Verant era with Brad when I played). And yet many players still didn’t have that stat ring. Rare/ultra-rare items and universal mounts I just wouldn’t put in the same category. Anyway Draco, my point about class interdependence has already been made. Respectfully agree to disagree. :)
Well I guess if that's what you want to tell yourself. But it has most definitely not been made. In fact with your precious comment about this or that being available you have proven yourself false. Plus other EQ players verified the items were more prevalent than you stated.
And as I said before interdependence does not hinge on 1 skill or another. It's how classes CLASSES interact with each other.
Peace :)
Honestly I just don't see what mounts could add to the game other than convenience. I still don't see what positives it brings that could possibly outweigh any negatives.
Traveling is a part of the game. It factors into the death penatly. Everyone having a mount reduces that penalty without every interacting with another player. Yes items existed in EQ that gave run speed but they did not compare to actual SoW or getting a port, which required interaction with the community.
Ask yourself, does this feature add to the community or take away from it? Does it increase the amount of interactions I have to have with people or reduce them? If something is reducing the amount of interactions then I view it as a negative. Community only matters when you have to be a part of it.
Mounts should only be considered under specific circumstances:
1) There are far away areas that need to be routinely traveled to, and the game has had an expansion or two
2) Mounts are expensive
3) Mounts are realistic for the world and not flashy/unique in any way
4) Stay away from scaling like what happens in most MMOs, i.e. a Gnome's horse/pony would be a full-size horse/pony, they might need a special saddle, or an Ogre won't be able to ride a traditional horse
5) Race appropriate mounts (e.g., maybe the Dwarves ride rams instead of horses)
6) Mounts do not diminish the benefits of classes that provide speed buffs
7) Mounts are not usuable everywhere and are primarily just used to travel between zones with a mount stable placed in strategic locations, i.e. you can't just summon your mount wherever
8) Mounts are left outside of the cities, you put it in a stable before going inside a city and are not allowed to use a mount within the city
9) No flying mounts, ever
Those are the things I would require to consider the possibility of mounts being implemented into the game.
EppE said:Honestly I just don't see what mounts could add to the game other than convenience. I still don't see what positives it brings that could possibly outweigh any negatives.
Traveling is a part of the game. It factors into the death penatly. Everyone having a mount reduces that penalty without every interacting with another player. Yes items existed in EQ that gave run speed but they did not compare to actual SoW or getting a port, which required interaction with the community.
Ask yourself, does this feature add to the community or take away from it? Does it increase the amount of interactions I have to have with people or reduce them? If something is reducing the amount of interactions then I view it as a negative. Community only matters when you have to be a part of it.
Honestly, yes it is a convenience but it also cuts down the time my group is waiting for me. The positives definitely outway the negatives
Traveling is part of the game. Mounts just make traveing time a little less. This isn't an instant transport
This does add to the community. Horses are beautiful animals seeing them being ridden around and riding one is awesome. It doesn't change interactions, I'm walkiing with my group or riding, dynamic hasn't changed, just the mode of transport. Plus more interactions are encouraged as someone asking you, "Where did you get that sweet horse" is another conversation starter. Being part of the community has nothing to do with mounts, it's completely up to the player how social/unsocial they will be.
Vandraad said:Syrif said:@Dracokalen Jboots were rare and an annoying quest that gave an effect that was slower than SoW.
Jboots were not rare at all. In the very early days of their introduction, yes, but not after that. Everyone had them as they were seen as a required item. Yes, the quest to get them was annoying but not in any way difficult or complex. Spoilers popped up very quickly noting exactly what NPC (in the 2 different zones the Ancient Cyclops would spawn) at what exact location was the placeholder and the fact it respawned approximately every 24 mins meant that over the course of a single real life day dozens of people could get the NoDrop quest item.
That type of problem is easy to deal with, you can put caps on the amount of times a rare in this case can spawn in a single day or you extend the time on various re-spawns to accomodate as well as increasing the rarity of the drop. There is a lot of ways to keep the flow of such an item greatly reduced into the game and I am sure VR is going to have to be on top of this due to today's generation of gamers that use cheat sites as if they are standard game play tools.
My experience with J-boots though was early EQ, when they were rare, coveted and had meaning if you obtained them. That could be achieved again, but I think a "mount" is a problem, unless... they specifically do the same with a mount quest hidden behind extreme rare mechanics to be able to gain it. That however is not what I think people are arguing for, rather I think they want it to be a simple quest and money pay out ala WoW.
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:Djarn’s Amethyst Rung didn’t give haste lol. And yet many players still didn’t have the stat ring. Anyway Draco, my point about class interdependence has already been made. :)
Plus other EQ players verified the items were more prevalent than you stated.
Yes, as EQ turned into a mainstream themepark.
There is a very strong division in EQ players. Many look to the first three expansions as the golden era of EQ where SoL, PoP, etc... turned more into a WoW like themepark game.
J-Boots were not very common early on, but after a some time when everyone knew every single trick element on how to spawn mobs for some items, the "chances" of the drop were increased, but more so this was a problem with plat sellers and gaming services who turned the game into a pay market for play.
See, I can accept something simlar, but it being a mount, though i doubt that is what you would agree on right?
Are you ok with your speed item being locked behind a long, difficult, and rare drop quest that ensures the item only is ever obtained by a small percentage of players? Or do you want a mount like modern games do where you do a quick riding quest and then buy it with gold/plat?
DracoKalen said:EppE said:Honestly I just don't see what mounts could add to the game other than convenience. I still don't see what positives it brings that could possibly outweigh any negatives.
Traveling is a part of the game. It factors into the death penatly. Everyone having a mount reduces that penalty without every interacting with another player. Yes items existed in EQ that gave run speed but they did not compare to actual SoW or getting a port, which required interaction with the community.
Ask yourself, does this feature add to the community or take away from it? Does it increase the amount of interactions I have to have with people or reduce them? If something is reducing the amount of interactions then I view it as a negative. Community only matters when you have to be a part of it.
Honestly, yes it is a convenience but it also cuts down the time my group is waiting for me. The positives definitely outway the negatives
Traveling is part of the game. Mounts just make traveing time a little less. This isn't an instant transport
This does add to the community. Horses are beautiful animals seeing them being ridden around and riding one is awesome. It doesn't change interactions, I'm walkiing with my group or riding, dynamic hasn't changed, just the mode of transport. Plus more interactions are encouraged as someone asking you, "Where did you get that sweet horse" is another conversation starter. Being part of the community has nothing to do with mounts, it's completely up to the player how social/unsocial they will be.
Your argument is exactly why modern mainstream games are the way they are. You are not concerned about game play, you are concerned about time, time to get to whatever thing you want to do. This is the foundation to which drives MMOs today. It is why travel is so fast (people don't have time to "waste" on travel, they need to get their fast to have their fun!), it is why there are dungeon finders (people don't have time to actually to build relationships, form groups through play, they need to get to the dungeons fast! So they can have fun!), it is why there are short dungeons (people don't have time to waste slogging through some long dungeon with tons of trash mobs, the point of play is the boss, why bother with a long draw out process, it is the boss that is fun!), it is why there is RMT (people don't have time to waste playing a game, they have a limited amount of time to play because they have a a life, and so the game shouldn't restrict them because they aren't some basement dwelling player who has all the time in the world to play!).
See, we don't want that game. Many of us here like game play, see it not as a waste, but the point. We see the time obstacles and various other things you would call "a waste of time" as extremely important to the over all aspect of play and that is why this game is being developed, not to cater to people who see games as a waste of time, but people who see that "game play" has been removed out of modern mainstream games because they were developed to cater to people who think it is a waste of time.
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:@Dracokalen Jboots were rare and an annoying quest that gave an effect that was slower than SoW. It took some work. SoW potions were limited (charges) and making new ones weren’t always ideal nor available to purchase from players (they could only be player crafted). And SoW was a player buff. Those were very, very different from the universal, ultimate speed-buffed mounts that are the general norm for all players in mainstream mmo’s. You can see which model utilizes class interdependence, and which one doesn’t. Just wanted to clear up the confusion mate. Cheers :)
It's actually quite irrelevant. In the last 50 years every fantasy game from PnP to MUDDs to MMORPG have had a multitude of items that simulate one classes skill/ability and allows other unrelated classes to use those skills/ability. Potions/rings/wands/swords/cloaks, too many to list.
And your attempt at excuses from "EQ" is irrelevant, those items were there, doesn't matter what you considered their short comings they were available and used.
how about Djarn's Amethyst Ring that gives any class a haste spell to use?
Well lets be real here. Even back in the days those items were very rare to obtain, and isn't common place like mounts are.
About the Djarn's Amethyst Ring that is false back in the day, but true on progression servers. In fact, the progression servers banned added focus effects this time around because they weren't in EQ classic to begin with. These types of effects came much later when they revamped the items to allow lower levels better quality items to level faster and more efficient.