EppE said:I do not want mounts. Period. It shrinks the world.
In EQ at max level traveling was still a risk. A low level mob could get lucky and hit, stun, root, etc. you. Mounts remove that risk.
I absolutely respect where you're coming from here. I don't want the world to feel smaller either.
That said, experience with games other than EQ has taught me that it's possible to build a world in such a way (even using zones) that mounts don't really shrink the world all that much. The trick, obviously, is having zones that are big enough to where the distance traveled is still meaningful while mounted.
I think the bigger problem with mounts is when they can be used to outrun monsters, allowing players to run through things with impunity. Rather than not having mounts, I think the right way to handle this is to add a lot of risk to the equation. If you ride your horse through that group of orcs, there should be a good chance that they will either a) knock you off the horse, b) kill the horse permanently, or c) do both (which would be my preference). The way I see it, riding a mount through a bunch of enemies should be something along the lines of a desperate escape attempt, not a standard method of getting from place to place.
Watemper said:@Nephele
I never heard of that. I just know Kilsin from awhile ago was advocating for flying mounts...just that they were extremly hard to get. Other than that I haven't heard anything on the flying mount debate.
I could be misremembering - but I think Joppa said something at one point about how they felt like flying mounts could trivialize the placement of content and didn't want to go there.
I think I know where Kilsin was coming from in his comments, which is his background with Vanguard. I would agree that if flying mounts were in Pantheon, they should be handled in a similar way. But, I still don't know that I really want them in Pantheon personally. Even in Vanguard, there were places where having a flying mount made it frightfully easy to go "drop in" on a named or boss that had happened to spawn.
Here is the problem I see with mounts, especially those that allow you to move faster than the default run speed: NPC have no way to proactively act to an incoming player. What I mean by this is that, using Nephele's example of riding your horse through a group of orcs is that by the time the Orc actually react to your presence, you are already far beyond the point at which they can do anything adverse to you. NPCs only react to things that have happened, not things that will happen. So unless NPCs can actually anticipate PC actions, looking around to see that player approaching on their horse and take preemptive measures, the player faces little to no risk.
This is only exacerbated when running through low level content as the issue with scaling hugely benefits the player. That low level orc will face incredibly high resist rates, AC, mitigation, etc such that the chance to impede your progress is effectively zero.
So mounts that allow you to move faster than the default run speed not only significantly reduce travel times, they also significantly reduce risks associated with travel. The world become smaller and safer.
Nephele said:Watemper said:@Nephele
I never heard of that. I just know Kilsin from awhile ago was advocating for flying mounts...just that they were extremly hard to get. Other than that I haven't heard anything on the flying mount debate.
I could be misremembering - but I think Joppa said something at one point about how they felt like flying mounts could trivialize the placement of content and didn't want to go there.
I think I know where Kilsin was coming from in his comments, which is his background with Vanguard. I would agree that if flying mounts were in Pantheon, they should be handled in a similar way. But, I still don't know that I really want them in Pantheon personally. Even in Vanguard, there were places where having a flying mount made it frightfully easy to go "drop in" on a named or boss that had happened to spawn.
Yeah,
I think flying mounts are more trouble than they are worth. The only way I could see flying mounts being okay is if there was a zone dedicated to flying mounts and your flying mounts would be stabled in that zone. The only way to get your flying mount in that area to another place that allows flying mounts is to have it moved, which cost money and time, from the zone it is in to the other.
This will allow them to build zones specifically for flying mounts without them being able to go to the majority of the zones. Still I overall think flying mounts are more trouble than they are worth and shouldn't be implemented at all.
BamBam said: I love flying mounts and hope top 1% can get them. They are cool, and bring envy to the rest of us. In the end it's just a game, so why not have some awesome endgame elements?
Because the top 1% never remains the top 1%. Nearly everyone will eventually read the point where they can obtain those items. Unless you constantly move the bar as to what defines the top 1% and when that group can get something it will never stop that item(s) from becoming commonplace. But you might say "well make it a available for only a limited time, if you miss out you never get it". And that will just piss off your playerbase. A driving factor in MMOs is that eventually, by putting in enough time and effort, you can go everywhere, see everything and acquire everything.
dorotea said:((I never understood those ‘turtle mounts‘ that give significant movement speed. Where does the silliness end Dorotea? ))
Fast turtles? Just part of a shell game. Horses that cannot go faster that a walking person are just as silly but I still agreed with you on that one.
((I do not want mounts. Period. It shrinks the world. ))
True - but only if they increase speed rather than being for show.
And if class buffs are 20% and mount speed is 10% - numbers I just made up - mounts actually shrink the world a lot *less* than the class buffs which don't seem to offend you.
((flying mounts are possibly going to be in the game.))
They were in Vanguard though not at launch. And they made some things far too easy and shrunk the world enormously. Some games have flying mounts but limit their use to lower level zones - or at least to zones where you have finished essentially every quest (FFXIV). That won't work if Pantheon tries to have high level content in some of the lower level zones as they said - and it is a nightmare for lower level harvesters. Bad enough visiting high levels can ignore the mobs - but the ability to fly between nodes is an abomination from that respect.
Or how about just no mounts altogether since they are obviously problematic.
On a different note - If there do end up being mounts in game, I want to see that reflected in the world as well. Meaning, if you see players on horseback, then you should occasionally see an NPC on horseback. Carts drawn by horses or oxen. Stables in major towns or attached to inns. NPCs selling tack and feed. Ranches where the mounts are raised and trained. And so on.
The vast majority of MMOs implement mounts as, essentially, a clickable, animated runspeed buff, but then you never actually see an NPC on a mount, ever. And when a player isn't riding theirs, where does it go? Who takes care of it? What does it even eat?
Obviously, there are some concessions that have to be made to enable gameplay - but I feel like if you're going to make mounts part of your game, then they should be part of your world too, and not just some sort of magical convenience that players happen to get.
I'm fine with mounts as long as flying is not a zone breaker. For speed group buffs, it's impossible to balance class identity with class flavor and diversity, and movement is a personnal convenience far more than a synergy, it's not mandatory for anything but travelling.
I however, would not like to see invincible horses going out of pockets. I want horses to have the drawback of costing an upkeep, been subject to death, and react unpredictably to damage, swings and spells taken.
I'm not fan of "I've got this horse which name is Shadowfax and we faced hundred of battles withouth him beeing even harmed". I think, as players are getting more and more combat skills, horse aren't and the shouldn't be able to shrug off damage or transfer it solely to their cavalier.
If you go to a dungeon, it's faster to use a mount but you're unlikely to find it waiting for you outside for more than a few hours, unless you leave it to a barn or something before doing the last miles on foot.
Syrif said:Respectfully disagree. Just to list one - mounts have ruined class interdependence in mmorpg’s.
I agree with you
When EQ came out with mounts it was terrible. Once you got a 100% speed and then Flying mount in WoW it trivilaized travel. In Warhammer Online you were able to ride past people in the RvR areas without being dismounted, most the time. FF14 is the "least" annoying game with mounts but they've designed all of their new zones with mounts in mind and you have to "attune" to the zone before you can use them. This atleast delays the skipping of content to a point when you've probably completed most of it.
If people want mounts for Aesthic reasons more power to them, I have no issue with that. I just don't see any situation in which mounts don't detract from the "community matters" part of relying on other people as means to travel.
Oh I don't need to ask for a SoW I have a mount.
Oh I don't need to ask/pay for a port my mount can get there in 2 minutes.
Oh I don't need to worry about the dangers in the zone becaue my mount can out run them.
These all take away from community and what VR is trying to achieve.
Nephele said:On a different note - If there do end up being mounts in game, I want to see that reflected in the world as well. Meaning, if you see players on horseback, then you should occasionally see an NPC on horseback. Carts drawn by horses or oxen. Stables in major towns or attached to inns. NPCs selling tack and feed. Ranches where the mounts are raised and trained. And so on.
The vast majority of MMOs implement mounts as, essentially, a clickable, animated runspeed buff, but then you never actually see an NPC on a mount, ever. And when a player isn't riding theirs, where does it go? Who takes care of it? What does it even eat?
Obviously, there are some concessions that have to be made to enable gameplay - but I feel like if you're going to make mounts part of your game, then they should be part of your world too, and not just some sort of magical convenience that players happen to get.
I agree with all of that. It seems all but certain that mounts will be in the game seeing that some of the earliest pledges included them as a perk. In the end, people just need to ease up and have some faith in VR's ability to implement their concepts. Mounts are a very important aspect of the game and based on what I have been reading, it sounds like VR is intent on adding new and improved risk vs reward elements that are tied into the mount system. There are plenty of valid points that have been brought up on this thread, from both sides, but again, it really comes down to implementation. Not every discussion needs to turn into an "EQ vs WoW" debate. Mounts are planned for Pantheon and travel is intended to be meaningful -- these two things can complement each other rather than contradict but people need to let go of their emotional fears and give things a chance before falling into this alarmist trap of fearmongering. The sky isn't falling. Meaningful travel and class interdependence aren't ruined by mounts -- they can be enhanced! There is a lot to be said on the mechanical side of things but taking what you said here, Neph, it's just as important. If mounts are truly going to be a meaningful part of the game then they should also make sense in the context of the world. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Oh I don't need to ask for a SoW I have a mount.
Oh I don't need to ask/pay for a port my mount can get there in 2 minutes.Oh I don't need to worry about the dangers in the zone becaue my mount can out run them.
That's really subjective or simply limited to flying mounts (which haven't been designed as a good thing since they appeared). The ground mount cause no danger issue in zones, or none that a speed buff isn't already harming. The top notch beeing Drummed selo's with invis and levitation, let's call most zone cake with theses stacked.
If you care about outrunning ennemies, then Sow spell line shouldn't even exist to begin with, or work like scale of wolf : IE, drop of if you take any damage.
SoWplz said: What is mounts could die? Spend the time questing or major cash, you might think twice before running through a group of orcs to try and outrun them. No issue with mount speed being a little higher then player buff, this will not make that players spell useless if the mounts were as rare as I would like to see. I see mounts like that epic raid dropped breastplate. I see a major raid guild where even in a top guild you only see 2 or 3 players with mounts. If they make them rare enough and maybe not more then a few % better then player buffs it puts it more in a prestigious category. A few MMOs hand mounts out like candy, or maybe 3-5 bucks in game store and you can ride a giant spider with 100% speed buff. They have become so trivial and easy to come by the player base looks at them as just a common part of most games.
Disagree with mounts being faster than speed buff. Eventually everyone will get them. Once the levels increase, which they always do, and the content gets larger with more mounts everywhere, then it will become common place quickly. You need to look at the longetivity of the game and not just the start of the game. People will solo the bosses that have mount drops until they get it...look at WoW. Also with epic quests for mounts the higher level you go the easier the quest is. So you won't ever have scarcity of mounts.
oneADseven said:Nephele said:On a different note - If there do end up being mounts in game, I want to see that reflected in the world as well. Meaning, if you see players on horseback, then you should occasionally see an NPC on horseback. Carts drawn by horses or oxen. Stables in major towns or attached to inns. NPCs selling tack and feed. Ranches where the mounts are raised and trained. And so on.
The vast majority of MMOs implement mounts as, essentially, a clickable, animated runspeed buff, but then you never actually see an NPC on a mount, ever. And when a player isn't riding theirs, where does it go? Who takes care of it? What does it even eat?
Obviously, there are some concessions that have to be made to enable gameplay - but I feel like if you're going to make mounts part of your game, then they should be part of your world too, and not just some sort of magical convenience that players happen to get.
I agree with all of that. It seems all but certain that mounts will be in the game seeing that some of the earliest pledges included them as a perk. In the end, people just need to ease up and have some faith in VR's ability to implement their concepts. Mounts are a very important aspect of the game and based on what I have been reading, it sounds like VR is intent on adding new and improved risk vs reward elements that are tied into the mount system. There are plenty of valid points that have been brought up on this thread, from both sides, but again, it really comes down to implementation. Not every discussion needs to turn into an "EQ vs WoW" debate. Mounts are planned for Pantheon and travel is intended to be meaningful -- these two things can complement each other rather than contradict but people need to let go of their emotional fears and give things a chance before falling into this alarmist trap of fearmongering. The sky isn't falling. Meaningful travel and class interdependence aren't ruined by mounts -- they can be enhanced! There is a lot to be said on the mechanical side of things but taking what you said here, Neph, it's just as important. If mounts are truly going to be a meaningful part of the game then they should also make sense in the context of the world. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
It's much easier adding things to a game, and much harder to remove them from the game once the game is launched. VR needs to be careful.
Syrif said:DracoKalen said:I've been in a few games with mounts and they were never "problematic" Just fun. In SOTA I have a herd, but then you can't ride them, yet.
Respectfully disagree. Just to list one - mounts have ruined class interdependence in mmorpg’s.
LOL, really. So not everyone needing a speed buff ruins class interdependence? That's am extremely poor design if one buff disrupts class interdependnce.
This game had no potions or scrolls that provided the same thing? Or rings or boots?
MauvaisOeil said:Oh I don't need to ask for a SoW I have a mount.
Oh I don't need to ask/pay for a port my mount can get there in 2 minutes.Oh I don't need to worry about the dangers in the zone becaue my mount can out run them.
That's really subjective or simply limited to flying mounts (which haven't been designed as a good thing since they appeared). The ground mount cause no danger issue in zones, or none that a speed buff isn't already harming. The top notch beeing Drummed selo's with invis and levitation, let's call most zone cake with theses stacked.
If you care about outrunning ennemies, then Sow spell line shouldn't even exist to begin with, or work like scale of wolf : IE, drop of if you take any damage.
Right but unless YOU can cast those YOU don't get those. You have to socialize with people to get those. Bard's were rare and if you fell behind it dropped off you. It was almost never used for traveling unless you were a bard. SoW was... everyone wanted SoW... guess what if you couldn't cast SoW you talked to people to get it.
Now if SoW wore off during a run you couldn't just recast it, again unless you were a cast that had the spell. It became a short speed buff to get places. Lets not pretend like SoW trivilized content to the extent that mounts did. Even in EQ when mounts came out they made SoW nearly worthless.
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:DracoKalen said:I've been in a few games with mounts and they were never "problematic" Just fun. In SOTA I have a herd, but then you can't ride them, yet.
Respectfully disagree. Just to list one - mounts have ruined class interdependence in mmorpg’s.
LOL, really. So not everyone needing a speed buff ruins class interdependence? That's am extremely poor design if one buff disrupts class interdependnce.
This game had no potions or scrolls that provided the same thing? Or rings or boots?
From what I’ve seen in mainstream mmo’s mounts are available to everyone and they provide universal, ultimate speed buff to everyone as general standard of the game. So yes, mounts (amongst other things) have ruined class interdependence in mainstream mmo’s.
Syrif said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:DracoKalen said:I've been in a few games with mounts and they were never "problematic" Just fun. In SOTA I have a herd, but then you can't ride them, yet.
Respectfully disagree. Just to list one - mounts have ruined class interdependence in mmorpg’s.
LOL, really. So not everyone needing a speed buff ruins class interdependence? That's am extremely poor design if one buff disrupts class interdependnce.
This game had no potions or scrolls that provided the same thing? Or rings or boots?
From what I’ve seen in mainstream mmo’s mounts are available to everyone and they provide universal, ultimate speed buff to everyone as general standard of the game. So yes, mounts (amongst other things) have ruined class interdependence in mainstream mmo’s.
So, a mount causes people to not need healers anymore? Or tanks or CC?
That's class interdependence.
EppE said:
Right but unless YOU can cast those YOU don't get those. You have to socialize with people to get those. Bard's were rare and if you fell behind it dropped off you. It was almost never used for traveling unless you were a bard. SoW was... everyone wanted SoW... guess what if you couldn't cast SoW you talked to people to get it.
Now if SoW wore off during a run you couldn't just recast it, again unless you were a cast that had the spell. It became a short speed buff to get places. Lets not pretend like SoW trivilized content to the extent that mounts did. Even in EQ when mounts came out they made SoW nearly worthless.
Please don't be hyperbolic. When mounts were released they were so expensive only casters bought them to allow mana regen withouth sitting, and it was the cheapest mount with no bonus speed at all (10k plats). The more expensive ones, around 100K plats I think, were quick but so expensive I don't think they were a major issue unless 5 + years after their release. Sure thing : when I played less than 1% of the server had one, and usually they had plenty ways to speed up already (Jboots or other). Sow potions existed far before that and every twink has it on P99 right now, beeing more common than anything when the game get flooded with high level crafters. AA steeds were, well, the personnal SoW of knights with bad behaviour when turning.
That they killed dangerosity of areas or interdependency in EQ is hyperbolic (You could argue Jboots did it). That they did it in wow is a truce however, as they were cheap, had no drawback, and had the exact same control as a player making them agile, convenient, and withouth acceleration or decceleration. They also implied nothing but a single grind at most.
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:DracoKalen said:I've been in a few games with mounts and they were never "problematic" Just fun. In SOTA I have a herd, but then you can't ride them, yet.
Respectfully disagree. Just to list one - mounts have ruined class interdependence in mmorpg’s.
LOL, really. So not everyone needing a speed buff ruins class interdependence? That's am extremely poor design if one buff disrupts class interdependnce.
This game had no potions or scrolls that provided the same thing? Or rings or boots?
From what I’ve seen in mainstream mmo’s mounts are available to everyone and they provide universal, ultimate speed buff to everyone as general standard of the game. So yes, mounts (amongst other things) have ruined class interdependence in mainstream mmo’s.
So, a mount causes people to not need healers anymore? Or tanks or CC?
That's class interdependence.
Not here to argue, but to answer your question. Yes, those examples are class interdependence, but spell speed buffs (via certain classes) is class interdependence too. I will leave it at that. Cheers :)