So here's my take on it. It's sort of an amalgamation of stuff that I have already read in this thread.
Mounts should exist. While they should not be "uber rare" they should be uncommon and expensive. Mount "walk speed" should be equivalent to player "run speed". Mount "run" speed should be about twice as fast as player "run speed", but should ALSO be tied to stamina, so that mount can only run for so long, not forever, without recouping that stamina. Mounts should also be able to carry items. You should be able to buy different carrying conveyances for mounts, such as different sizes of saddle bags. The weight of the objects in these conveyances should affect both run speed and stamina of your mount.
Maybe there could be spells from Druids or whatever that could assist, such as a stamina buff or speed buff for mounts. This would keep class inter-dependence a thing and still tie it in with mounts. There's all sorts of things that COULD be done. Magical items for different things. Maybe mounts have their own climates that they do well in and poor in.
The possibilities are endless if done right and wouldn't be "game breaking".
dorotea said:3. I am less bothered than some of us by the idea of mounts being faster than normal walking speed - that is the whole *purpose* of a mount, we didn't tame horses as pets we tamed them to increase speed and allow heavier weights to be pulled or carried. Same for elephants of course (Asian elephants not African elephants). If you cannot get a mount until at or near maximum level I doubt if it will harm the game dynamics as much as some of us fear. Though I don't look forward to my low level harvesters having to beat high levels on mounts to the nodes.
But on balance I somewhat reluctantly agree with those that do not want mounts to be faster than class speed buffs. As Tanix said recently in another thread - I have to go with gameplay considerations here over logic and realism. Sooner or later (hopefully later) a lot of us *will* be at maximum level especially if there is a lot of horizontal progression built in. If we all have *fast* mounts the class speed buffs will be useless except to buff lower levels.
Lol but that’s just the problem. I never understood those ‘turtle mounts‘ that give significant movement speed. Where does the silliness end Dorotea? There’s nothings wrong with having a mount/pet, but they should not have boosted movement speed attached to them. They can be ridden for prestige or ‘fun,’ but riding one should not increase the speed of a player beyond what a player’s normal run speed is. If you are looking for a speed buff, then some classes will have that ability (class interdependence).
Watemper said:DracoKalen said:Watemper said:Nephretiti said:Syrif said:SoWplz said: They should be a prestigious item, not a travel bonus item that anyone can get.I agree with this. If mounts are in game, then it can be a prestige. Not a travel bonus item where we see everyone on mounts with everyone having boosted speed.
Just trying to verify your opinion here. You are OK with some folks having a spell or racial trait that gives them a run speed advantage, but NOT ok with someone having a horse that gives them a run speed advantage?
Are you okay with some people having pets and others not having pets? Are you okay with some people having clarity(mana regen) buffs and others not having that advantage? I could go on but you get the point I assume?
not really a good comparison as people who have pets (and I'm assuming your talking like elementals and the fox) is to give them abilities to compliment their class as compared with the classes that don't need them.
So in this case;
pets are to their approriate class
as
horses are to folks who need them because they don't have speed buff available.
Whaaaaaattt...are you saying I can't magically tame a dragon as a pet...sounds ridiculous. I would want my Tank to have a pet.
You would need to talk to the devs about that my friend.
But mounts are not class specific and to the best of my knowledge do NOT provide any bonus other then riding and a speed bonus that can be acquired by any class no matter if the class has a pet or not. Now the 50 cent question would be, could I apply my speed buff to my horse?
dorotea said:Sorry OP as a long-term LOTRO player (although when Pantheon releases I will be out of there so fast I will get friction burns on my fingers from the speed of uninstalling) I can't resist a correction.
There are *no* ram mounts in the game.
Too much wool-gathering I suppose, as you may come to sheepishly admit. LOTRO has goats.
1. I have no problem with "prestige" mounts. A classic example would be some or all classes getting personal mounts as they hit maximum level or complete an epic class quest at high level. Thus, a paladin gets a class mount in EQ2 (or did quite a few years ago) befitting his or her status as a holy warrior of a God. Change this to getting a mount much later in the game as a reward for high level or great accomplishment and I think it works fine - in EQ2 the mount came far too early and with no need to do anything to earn it.
2. In a game with no in-game store I see no need for a huge assortment of different types of mounts in a dizzying and lore-breaking cacophony. Let us have some horses with anything else based on well established lore for a particular area. I do not in the slightest object to some different racial mounts - the whole idea of different areas of Terminus coming from different places almost cries out for it. Why should the entire multiverse ride *horses* - makes no sense at all.
3. I am less bothered than some of us by the idea of mounts being faster than normal walking speed - that is the whole *purpose* of a mount, we didn't tame horses as pets we tamed them to increase speed and allow heavier weights to be pulled or carried. Same for elephants of course (Asian elephants not African elephants). If you cannot get a mount until at or near maximum level I doubt if it will harm the game dynamics as much as some of us fear. Though I don't look forward to my low level harvesters having to beat high levels on mounts to the nodes.
But on balance I somewhat reluctantly agree with those that do not want mounts to be faster than class speed buffs. As Tanix said recently in another thread - I have to go with gameplay considerations here over logic and realism. Sooner or later (hopefully later) a lot of us *will* be at maximum level especially if there is a lot of horizontal progression built in. If we all have *fast* mounts the class speed buffs will be useless except to buff lower levels.
Syrif said:dorotea said:Lol but that’s just the problem. I never understood those ‘turtle mounts‘ that give significant movement speed. Where does the silliness end Dorotea? There’s nothings wrong with having a mount/pet, but they should not have boosted movement speed attached to them. They can be ridden for prestige or ‘fun,’ but riding one should not increase the speed of a player beyond what a player’s normal run speed is. If you are looking for a speed buff, then some classes will have that ability (class interdependence).
Well not defending either way.
But the reasoning I would assume as that it is a "fantasy" setting. I mean I can hardly fault them as you see mounds of living fire/air/earth/water whooshing around.
@DracoKalen
Wasn't saying their shouldn't be mounts. But should they be faster than sow, or equal, or should they be the equivelent to whatt Jboots were in EQ is the main question. I am just pointing out your faulty logic with everyone has a right to the same speed as everyone else mentality.
I think many people are undervaluing just how integral Mounts are to MMOs.
They serve a far great function that getting around or showing off.
Mounts along with pets, keep content relevant, because if a mount or pet drops from a boss in a raid, people will farm that boss forever.
This in turn helps new players/alts get groups for this older dungeon/raid content, even when the gear is no longer needed.
Its a win win for all.
As long as no mounts are just re-skins, stupid looking or obnoxios, i am fine with many variations.
I love collecting and mounts and pets let us to that while also showing other players "I did something amazing to earn this mount"
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:Lol but that’s just the problem. I never understood those ‘turtle mounts‘ that give significant movement speed. Where does the silliness end Dorotea? There’s nothings wrong with having a mount/pet, but they should not have boosted movement speed attached to them. They can be ridden for prestige or ‘fun,’ but riding one should not increase the speed of a player beyond what a player’s normal run speed is. If you are looking for a speed buff, then some classes will have that ability (class interdependence).
Well not defending either way.
But the reasoning I would assume as that it is a "fantasy" setting. I mean I can hardly fault them as you see mounds of living fire/air/earth/water whooshing around.
Yikes! Well, should warriors hurl wizard fireballs at mobs, should wizards dual-wield epic tank swords etc. Seems silly :) Anyway, the point is that class interdependence is ruined when you give mounts universal speed boost.
Watemper said:@DracoKalen
Wasn't saying their shouldn't be mounts. But should they be faster than sow, or equal, or should they be the equivelent to whatt Jboots were in EQ is the main question. I am just pointing out your faulty logic with everyone has a right to the same speed as everyone else mentality.
ahhh....I see....my bad. I think they should have their own speed or a speed set by level (ie....better quality horse).
Like a donkey would be a good pack animal but slow you down slightly.
Now should everyone have access to the same speed?? That's a good question.
My thought would be, a horse is only valid transport outside of combat but so are some speed buffs (I think). So not sure. I would say a speed buff from a caster would be faster then a horse, but boots would be the same or a little faster.
Syrif said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:Lol but that’s just the problem. I never understood those ‘turtle mounts‘ that give significant movement speed. Where does the silliness end Dorotea? There’s nothings wrong with having a mount/pet, but they should not have boosted movement speed attached to them. They can be ridden for prestige or ‘fun,’ but riding one should not increase the speed of a player beyond what a player’s normal run speed is. If you are looking for a speed buff, then some classes will have that ability (class interdependence).
Well not defending either way.
But the reasoning I would assume as that it is a "fantasy" setting. I mean I can hardly fault them as you see mounds of living fire/air/earth/water whooshing around.
Yikes! Well, should warriors hurl wizard fireballs at mobs, should wizards dual-wield epic tank swords etc. Seems silly :) Anyway, the point is that class interdependence is ruined when you give mounts universal speed boost.
OK, now you're just mixing everything together. I took your turtle comment as speed in the real world versus the fantasy world. Not fantasy world versus fantasy world. But your comparison really doesn't fly. If in a fantasy world a warrior can throw spells then that is the rule of that world.
But in a fantasy world if the rules state a turtle can fly then that is the ruleset of that world. If you compare that to reality, yes it is silly, but that's where suspension of reality comes in.
@DracoKalen
Also another question becomes whether or not mounts should be able to be ridden anywhere. Syrif mentioned cities and makes a good point with mounts not being ridable in the cities. Then there are dungeons. Should you be able to mount in dungeons? I would think not in dungeons.
Since you didn't play EQ I will explain Jboots. So Jboots was pretty much the poor version of the SoW speed buff. Jboots was basically a clicky after a long and arduous quest to be able to go faster than normal, but not quite as fast as SoW. This is where I see mounts should fall under.
*upvote* for Kalok's comment on limitations for mounts and overall speed buff.
How about this also? mounts are temporary, and mount types are limited to what is in zone or region. so as you left a zone or region you would need another mount in the new area or region. This would allow the player to enjoy a variety of mounts and not be held to one, and encourage exploration to try other types of mounts.- If they really needed a mount. Adventurers might scoff at the need for mount son their naked corpse runs (lol)
So if you want a mount, you have to tame one (or maybe a class affinity to tame certain types?) and your tamed mount would be subject stamina and eat from your food stores, etc.
Perhaps class affinity allowing to have a slightly higher success rate for some types than others, to take a trope: have dwarves better able to tame boars than lions in a given area/zone. The ability to tame can be seen/improved/obtained/quested in the form of bridles or saddles? So if you were a dwarf and only wanted boars, you could improve your tame skill/craft saddle(?) for a better one that will allow you to tame a boar quicker. Once tamed the boar would show the regalia of your saddle as an ornament on the boar. The better your tame ability for that species, the more decorative the tamed boar (think 3rd hobbit movie). The dwarf could learn to tame a lion but the young dwarf would have better ability/luck with boars.
Limit tameable creatures to three types per zone?
This may make certain zones desirable to go back to (you guys going to syronia? Snake mounts are there!) and each have their unique dizzying movement that may be desirable or undesirable.
This would make turtles desirable for underwater travel and drawback being slow on land. Snakes being slower than turtles in water but slightly better on land, but better for situational awareness in land or water because of the constant panning of the area the player is subject to due to the sinuous nature of the snakes movements. Likewise a tortoise - although slow- has high stamina and maybe increases STR on the character when mounted so they can carry more and better for traversing hot or dessert areas.
Maybe make a thing where if attacked, the mounts lose their tame and you are dismounted. They dont wander off far though so they can be recaught and retamed before a certain amount of time passes where they go back to being wild. Unless you have the foresight to hitch them, with small provsions before going into battle.
Watemper said:@DracoKalen
Also another question becomes whether or not mounts should be able to be ridden anywhere. Syrif mentioned cities and makes a good point with mounts not being ridable in the cities. Then there are dungeons. Should you be able to mount in dungeons? I would think not in dungeons.
Since you didn't play EQ I will explain Jboots. So Jboots was pretty much the poor version of the SoW speed buff. Jboots was basically a clicky after a long and arduous quest to be able to go faster than normal, but not quite as fast as SoW. This is where I see mounts should fall under.
I can live with that
Aradune was kind enough to share some insight on how he envisions mounts potentially working in Pantheon a few years ago:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3448/pets-and-pantheon
"Vehicles are a Persistent Pet sub-type. Typically, pet vehicles are mounts (e.g. horses) or boats/ships. The key is that Vehicle Persistent Pets can be used as transportation. Mounts typically allow you to travel faster overland than normal travel speed."
This was followed up with another comment when someone suggested that VR should be careful about making pets feel "necessary."
"While not everyone likes pet classes, as you can see from my post above, pets are a much bigger part of Pantheon than just those available to you based on your character's class. They're a pretty big deal, especially the persistent pets. I suppose there may indeed be some players totally disinterested in pets of any kind, but I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority of our target audience is interested in them -- all the more when they experience the in-game advantages you receive for having pets.
Certainly no one will be forcing you to have a pet, but you may be at a disadvantage if you decide you absolutely want nothing to do with them. That said, I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of our target audience do indeed want pets, at least to a certain degree. Especially if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages (we certainly don't want them to be a hassle, or difficult to manage or direct, etc.) The Pantheon community is definitely one, however, that enjoys collecting things -- items, etc. I think collecting pets fits in quite nicely, especially if you can level up certain types of pets, equip them with your 2nd tier items, etc. And vehicles will be very important in the game, even if initially they're limited to horses (and other traditional mounts)."
It seems obvious to me that pets are intended to provide utility (travel or otherwise) rather than be some sort of cosmetic fluff. A lot of people enjoy collecting pets/mounts, especially if they have situational value. I like the idea of having a sense of progression tied into our mounts, but at the very least, they should be quite difficult to obtain. They probably shouldn't be accessible until level 25-35 at the earliest. Allow players to pamper their mounts with special kinds of feed, grooming, and housing stables. Perhaps introduce a breeding system that has a pedigree element tied into it -- allowing players to have some influence on this market would be awesome! They should have an ultra high purchase price and a moderately high maintenance cost. If you don't take care of your companion, it could end up sustaining an injury and need to be rehabilitated. Their stamina, top speed, carry bonus, etc would all be relative to what breed they are, how acclimated that breed is in a given region/climate, what kind of accessories they have, and how well they are taken care of. I think this would actually be a really cool "profession" similar to crafting. Instead of there being a static price for them, allow supply/demand to be factored in where the best mounts (with high scaling measurables) would be extremely sought after.
Watemper said:@DracoKalen
Also another question becomes whether or not mounts should be able to be ridden anywhere. Syrif mentioned cities and makes a good point with mounts not being ridable in the cities. Then there are dungeons. Should you be able to mount in dungeons? I would think not in dungeons.
oops, missed the first part.
Depending on the mount you should be able to ride it in the city. Years ago back when horses were the main source of travel you could ride horses in the cities, not only in the wild west but back east as well. Now as I don't know what varieties of mounts that will be available the constraint would be on the size of the mount. For instance, a horse would have no problem in a human city. Where a dragon steed would have to wait outside of town.
As to dungeons, I guess. If the dungeon ceiling is high enough and the hallways wide enough. But I wouldn't, not unless my froup had killed everything and sprung all the traps. Not to mention searching for secret doots and such.
EppE said:I do not want mounts. Period. It shrinks the world.
In EQ at max level traveling was still a risk. A low level mob could get lucky and hit, stun, root, etc. you. Mounts remove that risk.
Not if they incorporate the mechanics I'm use to. If you're riding a mount and a mob attacks be it melee/ranged/spell you are forced to dismount. So the mob automatically gets the first attack.
@EppE
Trust me I understand. They even talked about flying mounts are possibly going to be in the game. Lol. That will probably be a bad move later on down the road. So instead of higher levels running on by noobs they will just fly over them instead without anyoen noticing. But you know...if the devs didn't see WoW's mistake in that and all the mitigation they did afterwards...then I guess they will have to learn the hard way.
everyone only gets horse mounts capped at 40%. i hope the horse system would be similar to bdo. i prefer us all to be plebs. leave flying mounts out, however, i'm okay with this rumored caravan thing to move only to major regions(exclude micro autopaths).
speaking of dispositions i got one:
horse killer
knocks players off mounts and attacks the horse
weak to mind altering cc, resistant to hard cc
((I never understood those ‘turtle mounts‘ that give significant movement speed. Where does the silliness end Dorotea? ))
Fast turtles? Just part of a shell game. Horses that cannot go faster that a walking person are just as silly but I still agreed with you on that one.
((I do not want mounts. Period. It shrinks the world. ))
True - but only if they increase speed rather than being for show.
And if class buffs are 20% and mount speed is 10% - numbers I just made up - mounts actually shrink the world a lot *less* than the class buffs which don't seem to offend you.
((flying mounts are possibly going to be in the game.))
They were in Vanguard though not at launch. And they made some things far too easy and shrunk the world enormously. Some games have flying mounts but limit their use to lower level zones - or at least to zones where you have finished essentially every quest (FFXIV). That won't work if Pantheon tries to have high level content in some of the lower level zones as they said - and it is a nightmare for lower level harvesters. Bad enough visiting high levels can ignore the mobs - but the ability to fly between nodes is an abomination from that respect.
I thought that the team had made pretty unequivocal statements in the past that they would NOT do flying mounts in Pantheon. Did I miss something in a recent stream or interview where that position had changed?
My assumption has been that if there are mounts, those would be ground mounts (horses, etc), and that based on Brad's post from a few years ago, they would behave more like rideable combat pets than the clickable, animated speed buffs that we're used to from other games.