DocZed said:If gaining a level in a profession was of equal difficulty to gaining the equivalent level in an adventuring class, would you still have this concern?
Maybe I'm just being cynical but I think the real resistance is purely selfish. People want to be one of as few crafters as possible in any given skill so they can maximize their income through use of that skill. So far, however, there haven't been any solid arguments against making all trade materials tradeable nor, for that matter, against allowing everyone to take up every trade that don't boil down to a desire to be rare. I wonder if those who want rare materials to be NOTRADE would be ok with the item made from that material also being NOTRADE (not bind-on-equip), only ever benefitting the crafter, and only the crafter, once. And if they're ok with that then how much better do they expect crafted gear to be than the raid drop gear equivalent, forcing players to craft if they want the "best" gear?
Akilae said:Maybe I'm just being cynical but I think the real resistance is purely selfish.
That's always possible. However, transfers between alts does have some unique potential to break other game mechanics.
For example, I have heard the devs say that they would like to see local markets, so that there can be organic over/under supply by geography. They specifically mentioned wanting to see people embarking on travel for the purpose of trade. If transfers across alts on the same account are easy, supply and demand differentials will be arbitraged away by people who just park an alt in each major city as a means of instantaneous, risk-free transportation of goods.
A game mechanic requiring "face-to-face" in-game exchange of goods and geld would be one way to remain consistent with the devs' philosophy. They've suggested local auction houses, so limiting consignment, bidding and clearing to the physical proximity of the local auction houses seems like their plan. It seems as though it would be feasible to limit exchange between any two characters, whether or not from the same account, to close proximity in-world transfers.
If they further limited accounts to one active character at a time, you'd need to double box in order to self-deal.
What unintended negative consequences do you foresee from a mechanic like this?
Akilae said:Maybe I'm just being cynical but I think the real resistance is purely selfish. People want to be one of as few crafters as possible in any given skill so they can maximize their income through use of that skill.
Although, this subject is not a deal breaker for me purchasing/playing the game (some things are), I strongly dislike the idea of easily maxing professions on low level characters.
If everyone can just create an alt at level 1 and stand in a city and be a master crafter, then it waters it down accross the board. It makes the choice of your profession and the work you put into on your main near worthless. It's not about maximizing income, but about building social interaction and having a purpose. If everyone can do something at the highest level with little effort more than standing at a crafting table and going through the motions, then what the hell is the point of crafting in the first place. It gives no one purpose, but rather turns into a monotonous grind that has no value to others.
There are a ton of great options people have discussed in this thread to make maxing professions a worthy cause. I personally am not strictly against a low level character having a profession maxed, but there has to be some other mechanisms that we havn't seen in other MMOs to give it a sense of accomplishment rather than just trading materials and button clicking.
kreed99 said: The real issue isnt the skill level. Its about the ability to create. A level 1 may gain max skill and stay in town and make a living, but a level 50 that adventures and does high level risky combines in tiered zones makes a killing in the market. I feel like this is the choice that should matter. The major issue comes down to making combines either “forge” specific or level/zone specific. True you may own a piece of material, but you are going to need that level 50 blacksmith to go to Amberfaet and combine in the “special” forge for a very specific item result. This requires interaction with players or leveling/training your own skill.
Others have mentioned this or similar, and I think it's a great idea. There doesn't just have to be one answer. Combining this with a few others ideas would be fantastic imo.
Akilae said:DocZed said:If gaining a level in a profession was of equal difficulty to gaining the equivalent level in an adventuring class, would you still have this concern?
Maybe I'm just being cynical but I think the real resistance is purely selfish. People want to be one of as few crafters as possible in any given skill so they can maximize their income through use of that skill. So far, however, there haven't been any solid arguments against making all trade materials tradeable nor, for that matter, against allowing everyone to take up every trade that don't boil down to a desire to be rare. I wonder if those who want rare materials to be NOTRADE would be ok with the item made from that material also being NOTRADE (not bind-on-equip), only ever benefitting the crafter, and only the crafter, once. And if they're ok with that then how much better do they expect crafted gear to be than the raid drop gear equivalent, forcing players to craft if they want the "best" gear?
No. My reasoning is purely social. If I can make a level 1 of every trade, I have no reason to speak to others. People use arguments like this all the time. Auction houses and instances are both better systems than ANY counterparts have ever been. But bring either of those up on these forums and you get roasted for it. The real issue, is that people want this to be eq2 (or 3?) and in eq you could max your trades, all of them, without leaving town. Even though that goes against the entire reason people dont want instances.
And, lets be serious, as much as people hope the tradeskill system will be comprehensive... it wont. It will be collect and click. Because honestly. Tradeskilling is a very very minor part of the game. So it wont take the same effort for a level 1 to max blacksmithing as it takes for me to hit 50.
Porygon said:No. My reasoning is purely social. If I can make a level 1 of every trade, I have no reason to speak to others. People use arguments like this all the time. Auction houses and instances are both better systems than ANY counterparts have ever been. But bring either of those up on these forums and you get roasted for it. The real issue, is that people want this to be eq2 (or 3?) and in eq you could max your trades, all of them, without leaving town. Even though that goes against the entire reason people dont want instances.
And, lets be serious, as much as people hope the tradeskill system will be comprehensive... it wont. It will be collect and click. Because honestly. Tradeskilling is a very very minor part of the game. So it wont take the same effort for a level 1 to max blacksmithing as it takes for me to hit 50.
I personally don't understand why people would want to be able to create a level 1 character and do anything of note other than message someone or work on leveling to 2.
I agree with you. To say it's selfish if I want my profession to have a purpose and be in demand is ridiculous. It's all about forcing the social function. No easy mode click to warp into a dungeon and play with people you will never see again. You shouldn't be able to be self sufficient accross all professions (at the highest levels) without putting in the work/time that it takes to build a near max level character for each.
Porygon said:No. My reasoning is purely social. If I can make a level 1 of every trade, I have no reason to speak to others. People use arguments like this all the time. Auction houses and instances are both better systems than ANY counterparts have ever been. But bring either of those up on these forums and you get roasted for it. The real issue, is that people want this to be eq2 (or 3?) and in eq you could max your trades, all of them, without leaving town. Even though that goes against the entire reason people dont want instances.
Yikes! Porygon: Pantheon is the spiritual successor to Classic Everquest as Camelot Unchained is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot. Heck, the devs of each game made the previous one afterall. They have even said this themselves. Nothing should surprise you about parallels and inspirations between Classic Everquest and Pantheon - it really should not surprise you at all. It's just how it is and to deny this is to deny reality.
Pantheon having inspiration from its EQ predecessor is not an issue (actually it's a blessing ;). Anyway, why is that such a problem for you? Better yet (and I only ask out of curiousity) - what brought you here? What brought me (and others) here is I loved Classic Everquest and being that Brad M. made that game and Vanguard, I knew that his next game to succeed them (Pantheon) would highly interest me. Be it Classic Everquest, Vanguard, or Pantheon, they are made by Brad M. & team and of course the gameplay is going to be similar while drawing upon inspirations from each other. I am only curious why that is such an issue for you because you have said it is on numerous threads.
Also: auction houses and instances are terrible and that's why the mmo's that highly utilize them are in a dooownward spiral.
Syrif said:Porygon said:No. My reasoning is purely social. If I can make a level 1 of every trade, I have no reason to speak to others. People use arguments like this all the time. Auction houses and instances are both better systems than ANY counterparts have ever been. But bring either of those up on these forums and you get roasted for it. The real issue, is that people want this to be eq2 (or 3?) and in eq you could max your trades, all of them, without leaving town. Even though that goes against the entire reason people dont want instances.
Yikes! Porygon: Pantheon is the spiritual successor to Classic Everquest as Camelot Unchained is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot. Heck, the devs of each game made the previous one afterall. They have even said this themselves. Nothing should surprise you about parallels and inspirations between Classic Everquest and Pantheon - it really should not surprise you at all. It's just how it is and to deny this is to deny reality.
Pantheon having inspiration from its EQ predecessor is not an issue (actually it's a blessing ;). Anyway, why is that such a problem for you? Better yet (and I only ask out of curiousity) - what brought you here? What brought me (and others) here is I loved Classic Everquest and being that Brad M. made that game and Vanguard, I knew that his next game to succeed them (Pantheon) would highly interest me. Be it Classic Everquest, Vanguard, or Pantheon, they are made by Brad M. & team and of course the gameplay is going to be similar while drawing upon inspirations from each other. I am only curious why that is such an issue for you because you have said it is on numerous threads.
Also: auction houses and instances are terrible and that's why the mmo's that highly utilize them are in a dooownward spiral.
Pantheon being influenced by and being the spiritual successor to EQ is a good thing and probably the biggest reason most of us are so invested, but that doesn't mean that the tradeskill system or any other feature has to be or should be an exact copy. Everything in EQ was not the best there has ever been regarding MMOs. There are many features and implementations that other games have done better. It's silly to assume everything will be exactly like EQ simply based off the obvious ties in developers/designers. I'm pretty sure I've seen VR say something about not copying EQ in many aspects.
@Kass That’s why I said inspirations and parallels between EQ, Vanguard, and Pantheon; I never said an ’exact copy.’ I find it silly though when some people think it’s shocking that Pantheon has similarities to EQ and VG like ‘oh my.’ Uh...
It‘s like saying Camelot Unchained and Dark Age of Camelot shouldn’t be related or share some features and inspirations. Again, uh...
Anyway, agreed :)
Syrif said:@Kass That’s why I said inspirations and parallels between EQ, Vanguard, and Pantheon; I never said an ’exact copy.’ I find it silly though when some people think it’s shocking that Pantheon has similarities to EQ and VG like ‘oh my.’ Uh...
It‘s like saying Camelot Unchained and Dark Age of Camelot shouldn’t be related or share some features and inspirations. Again, uh...
Anyway, agreed :)
Fair enough. I may have misread your comments. In a nutshell, I thought you were saying there was no point to this thread because they are just gonna do what EQ did.
@Kass No worries. Yeah I was actually saying the opposite. I‘m all for the parallels, inspirations, and similarities between Old EQ, Vanguard, and Pantheon. I mean Brad M. does have a significant role here afterall. Lol :)
But yes, Pantheon is the spiritual successor to Old EQ and may it flourish.
Syrif said:Also: auction houses and instances are terrible and that's why the mmo's that highly utilize them are in a dooownward spiral.
This is not correct. Modern MMOs have failed because they have tried to copy WoWs success instead of innovating.
WoW didnt fail because instances and auction houses. Infact the game thrived because of these features and much more. WoW (began) to fail when it began to design content for the 99% as opposed to the 1%. Blizzard took the route of "money making" instead of "innovating" and eventually ruined their game.
I came the pantheon in Hope's of a successor to EQ. Not eq reimagined. Many of the features of EQ will not work in today's day and age. Game mechanics like death penalties and corpse runs are fine. Those shaped eqs game. Things like ec tunnel and a loot system that creates BiS level 20 items did not. These things do nothing to advance the game in any way.
I want a robust game that creates a need for social interaction where it is needed. If I want to crawl through a dungeon I should need to speak to my teammates. If I want to buy 20 bat wings. I should not need to spam in zone for 20 minutes waiting for someone to come along.
@Porygon But it is correct. Modern MMO’s (including WoW - the pathetic, instant-gratification game that it has *always been*) are in a dooownward spiral just as I predicted. Instances and auction houses are utter crap, contributing (amongst many other things) to those games’ downfalls. Many inspirations and game-play type from Old EQ can and will be modernized in Pantheon. Also: No 1-man dungeons Lol! And, ‘20 batwings’ takes some work. No instant-gratification in Pantheon, but thanks. Pantheon needs depth and challenge, not EZ mode (you can already get that in WoW ;)
Syrif said:@Porygon But it is correct. Modern MMO’s (including WoW - the pathetic, instant-gratification game that it has *always been*) are in a dooownward spiral just as I predicted. Instances and auction houses are utter crap, contributing (amongst many other things) to those games’ downfalls. Many inspirations and game-play type from Old EQ can and will be modernized in Pantheon. Also: No 1-man dungeons Lol! And, ‘20 batwings’ takes some work. No instant-gratification in Pantheon, but thanks. Pantheon needs depth and challenge, not EZ mode (you can already get that in WoW ;)
You've clearly never played wow. Or you've only played the recent modern version. Vanilla and TBC were easily the best MMO and Xpac ever. And the downfall of wow had ZERO to do with instances and the auction house. No matter how many times you say it, doesnt make it right.
Also, classic wow is more challenging than almost any other MMO. Alot of people forget just how difficult it is. So no, wow has not always been about instant gratification.
Porygon said:You've clearly never played wow.
@Porygon Actually, I did briefly try vanilla WoW in ‘04 and I (like others) thought it was crap and too watered down in comparison to Old EQ and other games with more challenge and depth. Honestly, Vanilla WoW felt like a joke to me imo after having just played Old EQ. I thought Old EQ was immensely more immersive than WoW. It’s why I didn’t want to play WoW. Not at all surprised to see that many people don’t like it anymore. If you liked WoW, then all the power to you. I just couldn‘t take that game seriously. Anyway, Old EQ is what brought me to Pantheon - and am glad that Brad M. is putting much of this game together, just as he did in Old EQ. Pantheon is the spiritual successor to Old EQ as Camelot Unchained is to Dark Age of Camelot. It’s just how it is, and imo this is a very good thing. May Pantheon flourish. Myself and others think of Old EQ as the best mmo experience ever. Cheers pal.
I think there's room for no-trade tradeskill materials if we're thinking creatively. I don't think it should necessarily be completely no-trade though, in the sense that if I'm not a crafter, I could still bring the material to a crafter to commission them through a special window (perhaps like something EQ2 did). The main way I personally see them being implemented would be rewards for running dungeons, or perhaps even a raid. E.g., let's say the max cap is level 50, and there are craftable sets of rare gear that sit between dungeon and raid quality. When running dungeons the materials to craft this set of gear drop (or maybe are mineable) and are very rare drops. These materials can be used for more than one thing, so you can get gear that's more of a priority for you (if you already have a great chestpiece, maybe you'll have a sword crafted instead if you find this rare material). If I'm a crafter, I could craft this gear myself, and if I'm not, I can take it to a grandmaster level crafter who has the recipe for it.
Referencing level 1 trades kill alts
I have been recommending a crafting system that focuses on time spent crafting rather than the amount of materials spent crafting. Basically the mini-games involved in making all the sub components and the final combine would take the same amount of time on average as an equal level combat fight. Additionally you would roughly need to craft the same number of items to level your crafting level as you would need to kill of an equivalent combat level.
In a system like this there is no such thing as a trivial level 1 crafting alt. It may be a level 1 combat class but you bet your butt that getting to level 50 in a crafting class is a real achievement that takes time and dedication.
On a side note more than auction houses, instancing, and looking for group tools what has killed the community spirit in modern MMOs is the community. A large number of players just have no interest in interacting with other people and are solely focused on their own character and journey. So I guess being able to Solo is actually a bigger contributor but mostly its just the online cultural of alot of people these days. . . . . damn young kids theses days, why back in my day I had to type all the letters to the word I wanted to say to be understood and we liked it
Trasak said:On a side note more than auction houses, instancing, and looking for group tools what has killed the community spirit in modern MMOs is the community. A large number of players just have no interest in interacting with other people and are solely focused on their own character and journey. So I guess being able to Solo is actually a bigger contributor but mostly its just the online cultural of alot of people these days. . . . . damn young kids theses days, why back in my day I had to type all the letters to the word I wanted to say to be understood and we liked it
I think it can be reduced to the fact that given the choice between two options, people will typically pursue the path that results in greatest efficiency, despite the reality that other choices may be better for them in the long run (e.g. using a dungeon finder if available vs going through the effort of putting a guild group together). The devs have the difficult task of balancing QoL features and ensuring that those features don't fundamnetally shift the way players interact with each other in a negative way (at least looking at the overall community, e.g. although trading via chat channels increases community interaction, it may be decided that limited auction houses are implemented regionally- a tradeoff that may be overall greater for the health of the community despite the sacrifice of forcing interaction via active trading).
Syrif said:Porygon said:You've clearly never played wow.
@Porygon Actually, I did briefly try vanilla WoW in ‘04 and I (like others) thought it was crap and too watered down in comparison to Old EQ and other games with more challenge and depth. Honestly, Vanilla WoW felt like a joke to me imo after having just played Old EQ. I thought Old EQ was immensely more immersive than WoW. It’s why I didn’t want to play WoW. Not at all surprised to see that many people don’t like it anymore. If you liked WoW, then all the power to you. I just couldn‘t take that game seriously. Anyway, Old EQ is what brought me to Pantheon - and am glad that Brad M. is putting much of this game together, just as he did in Old EQ. Pantheon is the spiritual successor to Old EQ as Camelot Unchained is to Dark Age of Camelot. It’s just how it is, and imo this is a very good thing. May Pantheon flourish. Myself and others think of Old EQ as the best mmo experience ever. Cheers pal.
So, you briefly tried wow, but you claim to understand why the game failed. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Pantheon might be the "spiritual successor" but I promise you, not even Brad wants to see the game follow the same path. VR wants the game to thrive for years to come. And that isnt going to happen by creating a clone of EQ and pretending we live in 1999. Mechanics that worked in EQ will never work in Pantheon. The culture of gaming has changed.
Porygon said:So, you briefly tried wow, but you claim to understand why the game failed. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Pantheon might be the "spiritual successor" but I promise you, not even Brad wants to see the game follow the same path. VR wants the game to thrive for years to come. And that isnt going to happen by creating a clone of EQ and pretending we live in 1999. Mechanics that worked in EQ will never work in Pantheon. The culture of gaming has changed.
Other than you, who ever said “clone?” I haven’t seen that at all since I made my account here in February of ’14. Anyway, *imo* WoW was a failure from the very start hence why *I* didn‘t continue to play it ;) Its EZ gameplay in Vanilla did not interest me. You are correct: the culture of gaming did change. Though, it changed for the worse (no wonder WoW is in a dooownward spiral). Gaming in Pantheon can undo that though and actually be good again. Pantheon is progressing quite well, and having played Old EQ, there is no question that Old EQ and Vanguard are truly the predecessors to this type of a game and the direction it will ultimately go. No offense, but I’m going to have a bit more faith in Brad M. & Visionary Realms moreso than some of what you say. I’m really liking what Visionary Realms is saying on the streams. The Old EQ and Vanguard that Brad made were very, very good games and I predict the same for Pantheon for similar reasons. :) Mind you, Vanguard was not a “clone” of Old EQ either. And... I’ll leave it that. Cheers pal.
All tradeskill mats should be tradeable, this helps the in game economy. Tradeskills should not be tied to level, if someone just wants to play a crafter then more power to them. I really don't think it impacts my gameplay that someone wants to be a level 1 adventurer and level 100 crafter.
Porygon said:Syrif said:Porygon said:You've clearly never played wow.
@Porygon Actually, I did briefly try vanilla WoW in ‘04 and I (like others) thought it was crap and too watered down in comparison to Old EQ and other games with more challenge and depth. Honestly, Vanilla WoW felt like a joke to me imo after having just played Old EQ. I thought Old EQ was immensely more immersive than WoW. It’s why I didn’t want to play WoW. Not at all surprised to see that many people don’t like it anymore. If you liked WoW, then all the power to you. I just couldn‘t take that game seriously. Anyway, Old EQ is what brought me to Pantheon - and am glad that Brad M. is putting much of this game together, just as he did in Old EQ. Pantheon is the spiritual successor to Old EQ as Camelot Unchained is to Dark Age of Camelot. It’s just how it is, and imo this is a very good thing. May Pantheon flourish. Myself and others think of Old EQ as the best mmo experience ever. Cheers pal.
So, you briefly tried wow, but you claim to understand why the game failed. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Pantheon might be the "spiritual successor" but I promise you, not even Brad wants to see the game follow the same path. VR wants the game to thrive for years to come. And that isnt going to happen by creating a clone of EQ and pretending we live in 1999. Mechanics that worked in EQ will never work in Pantheon. The culture of gaming has changed.
I played WoW for years starting at release, largely playing for so long because my then 8 year-old son could grasp it nearly completely and we could play together. And even he outgrew it and started feeling bored at the ease of play. So I have to agree in large part with Syrif that it was very watered down, and very focused on instant gratification. It succeeded in a big way, and in no small part to attracting a high percentage of a much younger audience than MMO's had before then. Vanilla WoW was much more difficult than it is today, but by difficult you could say it was so mostly because you had to talk to people and organize a group and then go to that dungeon instance, not because anything about the mechanics was a challenge.
All that being quite off-topic, I'd say that I completely disagree with several of the comments about crafting.
I don't think that crafting is a small thing to those people that enjoy crafting. It could well be the only thing for some that really keeps them engaged.
I don't think crafting should be considered a throw-away aspect of an MMO, because it has the potential (if done well) to tie all aspects of the game into what feels much more like a living, breathing world.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a low level adventurer having the ability to achieve a high degree of crafting skill. But I do think location of combines can make a significant impact on quality, rarity, and overall value of that crafter's service that might not be logistically possible without also achieving adventuring skill. Or having a badass adventuring group escorting them as bodyguards, which would tie in perfectly (IMO) to the social tenets of this game.