What?
Really BAD idea. I craft but usually you have to choose one skill, like for my paladin an armorer as I need more armor then sword. But either way I gather all materials necessary including rares and then give all that to one of my guild friends who crafts the equipment I need. So, having no trade mats is a no way!
Tying adventuring level to crafting level seems rather absurd, quite honestly. Why do people want to dictate how others play? Why are you hurt if someone who loves to craft just wants to craft? I knew a guy who loved crafting in vanguard. HE had master crafters of all types and I think none past lvl 20ish adventuring. We eventually powerleveled one of his toons because of some stupid bound drop. Yeah, that makes for a better game...
He LOVED crafting. Anything you wanted made at cost (below if you were poor) he made. The idea of saying to hell with him, that he doesn't deserve to be a master crafter because he disliked adventuring actually makes me sad. Vanguard would have been a poorer game without him than it would have without me, who also had all master crafters, at least 8 max level toons, and 4 toons with both epics. I crafted, sure. I crafted for guildies. I had a couple of other guilds that would contract high level work from me for very generous tips. He crafted gear for level 20 toons he had never met before.
The guild got together to donate mat and get him schemes to build the large ships. Our collective efforts and his excitement upon building his first ship, THAT is why we play games like this, I thought. Me? I made my first ship slighly afterward. I harvested/bought everything I needed. Build my first ship and promptly sold it for quite alot. For me it was a grind, I could do it whenever I wanted so sell the ships early when prices were high, and got my own ships later when they were not nearly as valuable.
My playstyle serves a purpose in these types of games. It is the kind that allows massive grinds in games, because we grind. It allows massively long and linear raid progressions, because we raid. My playstyle adds virtually nothing to the community outside my guild. (I hope I add something to my guild though!)
And you want him, the type of guy who actually builds a gamewide community gone. The type of guy who convinces some random newbie that he should buy the game/sub because the comminity is good, gone.
Yes, it seems very absurd to me. But if this is so important get rid of crafting and just make adventuring classes pairing with the crafting. Every lvl 45 ranger is also a lvl 45 woodworker. Every lvl 30 pally is a lvl 30 blacksmith. I mean why notm since only powerful adventurers should be skilled crafters, right?
alephen said:Tying adventuring level to crafting level seems rather absurd, quite honestly. Why do people want to dictate how others play? Why are you hurt if someone who loves to craft just wants to craft? I knew a guy who loved crafting in vanguard. HE had master crafters of all types and I think none past lvl 20ish adventuring. We eventually powerleveled one of his toons because of some stupid bound drop. Yeah, that makes for a better game...
He LOVED crafting. Anything you wanted made at cost (below if you were poor) he made. The idea of saying to hell with him, that he doesn't deserve to be a master crafter because he disliked adventuring actually makes me sad. Vanguard would have been a poorer game without him than it would have without me, who also had all master crafters, at least 8 max level toons, and 4 toons with both epics. I crafted, sure. I crafted for guildies. I had a couple of other guilds that would contract high level work from me for very generous tips. He crafted gear for level 20 toons he had never met before.
I really hope your friend from Vanguard ends up playing Pantheon. People like that are the ones that you don't think about that often because they're not out there being boastful about their achievements, but they're the ones that are so quietly important to creating a friendly and welcoming community, especially for newer or more casual players. We need all the folks like him that we can get.
By making it a requirement to be a certain level character before progressing your crafting you create a more social game. It's much more difficult to level crafting alts when you also have to devote the time it takes to actually level up the character. Assuming pantheon is in any way similar to modern games where you can only select a limited number of trades per character this will effectively make it do that you have to socialize with other crafters to find someone to assist you.
I find it humorous that the same people that want an EC tunnel style trading (claiming a more social eviroment) would disagree.
If theres no level requirement for crafting. You just end up with a blacksmith alt. A tailor alt etc. That does not promote social interaction.
dorotea said:((Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level. ))
Several people have said this, so I will take the opportunity to point out that this is not at all necessarily true. In Vanguard, for example, the theory was that the different aspects of the game were separate and you didn't need to gain adventure level to raise your crafting or diplomacy - and vice versa.
Obviously a high adventure level makes many things easier but that is not the same thing at all as imposing a hard limit. Such as you cannot craft in tier two unless you are level 10 or higher, you cannot craft in tier 3 unless you are level 20 or higher etc.
I entirely fail to see how killing enough pigs to get to level 10 is in any slightest way relevant to how well I can smith a weapon or tailor some shoes or cook some food.
I liked the Vanguard system. I disagree with linking character level to crafting.
I do not entirely disagree with the OP's suggestion but I mostly disagree. I spend more time harvesting than crafting in MMOs. It seems better to me that a harvester should be able to raise money by selling resources. Even more so it seems better that a harvester should be able to provide materials to crafting brothers and sisters (alts or guildmates) and not require that each and every character that crafts also be a high level harvester.
Akilae said:But why? Chances are that a player has at least one adventuring character and at least one crafting character but the two are not necessarily the same character(s). Likewise, some people prefer to stick to just crafting and buy all their materials from other players. There's nothing wrong with that style of play and no real reason to artificially restrict it.
Even crafting mat drops from raid bosses should be tradable or the game is artificially restricting the crafter game. If the fear is that people who haven't killed Uberboss Dwarfmuncher can buy and use gear made from Mr. Dwarfmuncher's tanned hide why does that matter? In the end it doesn't affect your gameplay even a little bit (unless you're the one who sold UBDM's hairy flesh to the crafter and made a tidy profit).
In many years of playing MMORPGs I've never heard a good justification for making *any* crafting material NOTRADE.
I see there are several people that share this sentiment, but I disagree. I could be swayed though, and am always open to discussion.
Here is my argument:
Let's say every player has one max character. You carefully choose which professions/trade skills you will take up. Let's say that you choose a profession that only 10% of the player population has also choosen. Your skills will be in demand, and your investment in choosing that skill and taking the time to level it up will be rewarded. Your work will be sought after by the community, because not every person will have access to a character that has that skill.
If every player can now hop on an 'alt' and at level 1 (arbitrary example) max that given trade skill (using their main to fuel the materials and gold needed), then that essentially makes the player at max level profession unimportant. There will be no demand. Every player will now have an alt level 1 in the city clicking their buttons and manufacturing the same thing. I personally hate that idea. "Hey I got everything I need to make that epic helment now". "Cool, let me hop on my level 1 armorer." "Wait, I got a level one of every profession, let me check my spreadsheet to figure out which one is my armorer". I know I got a little silly, but I think it's silly to allow it.
I think that by limiting low level players from crafting certain gear, it will allow the max level players who choose that profession to reap the benefits of that choice and investment.
-----
So anyways, that's my two cents. I don't necessarily agree with non-tradable items, but I do agree something should be implemented to allow the max level character to do things that a level 1 character cannot do regarding crafting/professions. I'm all for finding another soloution other than level caps, because you do lose some immersion there.
As long as crafting is difficult, and takes time to advaance like leveling then it shouldn't matter.
If all you have to do is buy enough material to just sit and click combine to advance and be master in a few hours, then crafting is broken.
If reaching Master craftsmen, takes nearly as long for someone to reach max level, which means there are going to have to be some sort of bottlenecks, then things should be ok. Those bottlenecks could easily be rare materials that they have to wait for the adventurers of appropriate levels, to start acquiring.
I hope there are apprentice quests along the way as well, these could be bottlenecks as well.
Nephele said:In the Crags of the Whispering Lands, there live storm drakes. Distant kin to dragons, these scaly winged reptiles are dangerous predators, laying many a would-be hunter low. However, hunted they are, for their hides are highly prized. When properly treated and tanned (a process which, it is said, is nearly as difficult as killing the beast in the first place), drake leather is stronger, lighter, and more flexible than any other type of leather, enabling outfitters to make truly wondrous armor for those who don't want to walk around in suits of metal.
Now let's say we have two individuals. I'll call them Bob, and Joe. Bob is a ranger, and excels at tracking and hunting the beasts of Terminus. Joe is a journeyman outfitter. While he has some small skill with a sword, Joe really prefers crafting to adventuring.
In Riahuf22's implementation:
- Bob has to deal with the storm drakes every time he goes to the Whispering Lands, but since the skins are no trade, and he doesn't craft, he has nothing he can do with them. Bob would really like some drake leather armor, but it's exceedingly expensive, since there are only a few crafters that can hunt it on their own, and they effectively have a monopoly on the stuff - thus, pricing it out of reach of most normal adventurers. Eventually, Bob just gives up on crafted armor altogether, and instead spends a lot of time to go out and build a set of looted armor. He would have really liked the look of the drake leather, but it's just too expensive.
- Joe wants to be a competitive outfitter, but because his adventuring skills aren't very high, he can't compete with drake armor at all. He tries making other, lesser armor, but most days nothing sells, because everyone wants drake armor, even if they end up having to pay through the nose to it. Because it's so hard to make a sale, Joe isn't able to afford the things he'd need to learn more recipes and compete on the market in different ways. Eventually Joe gives up on crafting altogether, since he feels like he'll never be able to compete. He spends some time adventuring, but it doesn't really hook him, and after a while he just gives up altogether and goes off to play some other game.
In Nephele's implementation:
- Bob kills a few drakes when he's in the area and acquires some drake skins. When he asks around, he finds out that they can be used to make drake leather armor which he's heard is really nice stuff. Bob goes and looks and sees that buying drake leather armor straight up seems pretty expensive. But, since he can get the skins, he finds a crafter (Joe) who's willing to make the armor for him much more cheaply, if Bob supplies the skins. Bob brings the drake skins to Joe, and gets a set of drake leather armor in return.
- Joe wants to compete more with other outfitters and lucks out when Bob asks him about drake leather armor. Not only does Joe make a set of armor for Bob, and advance his own skill while doing that, but he also strikes a deal with Bob - he'll pay Bob for any more drake skins Bob wants to bring him. Joe takes the extra skins and makes armor to sell on the market, enabling him to compete. As his supplier, Bob also earns money by keeping Joe supplied with skins. Joe eventually joins Bob's guild, and goes on to participate in a lot of adventures.
I understand and support the intent of wanting there to be a reason for people to progress in both the adventuring and the crafting sphere. However, breaking the game economy, and potentially forcing some players to spend time on activities that don't really interest or appeal to them, is not the right way to achieve that goal.
My opinion.
I see what your saying but let's say instead of the leather that would become no trade it was the gem that was in the middle of the chest piece that was no drop for one the price on the set of armor would dramatically drop, and if it was a zone drop or even a mob drop in a certain zone and had more than enough of them than you could easily have this work, especially if you needed like 3 to 4 grps to cover all the mobs to where making a monopoly on it would be almost impossible
Fulton said:As long as crafting is difficult, and takes time to advaance like leveling then it shouldn't matter.
If all you have to do is buy enough material to just sit and click combine to advance and be master in a few hours, then crafting is broken.
If reaching Master craftsmen, takes nearly as long for someone to reach max level, which means there are going to have to be some sort of bottlenecks, then things should be ok. Those bottlenecks could easily be rare materials that they have to wait for the adventurers of appropriate levels, to start acquiring.
I hope there are apprentice quests along the way as well, these could be bottlenecks as well.
This is unlikely to happen and it easy to see why let's say you make a character but you want your main to be max or close to max level before starting on your crafters and probably craft with your main as well( many of them will). Now your starting your level 1 crafter hy this time by what people to gel like to get to max level should take at least 2 months or more, in this time there are so many people trading your mats around to where it felt that crafting took just about as long to level crafting compared to adventuring, is now completely lop-sided into tradeskilling taking a lot less time. Now like I have said at the beginning I do not mind if you can become max crafting and make the best armor for certain classes or potions and such but I believe they're should be something important in your craft that you have to go and get yourself, to reap the benefits instead of just feeding off sellers to make everything, now with that said I don't care that you can do this and make 95% of everything in your craft but giving someone 5% extra to doing both isn't that big of a difference and if you really think it is than all you have to do is level him up if you thinks it's that important or just settle with 95% and still make do money the choice is still yours to make
Riahuf22 said:Fulton said:As long as crafting is difficult, and takes time to advaance like leveling then it shouldn't matter.
If all you have to do is buy enough material to just sit and click combine to advance and be master in a few hours, then crafting is broken.
If reaching Master craftsmen, takes nearly as long for someone to reach max level, which means there are going to have to be some sort of bottlenecks, then things should be ok. Those bottlenecks could easily be rare materials that they have to wait for the adventurers of appropriate levels, to start acquiring.
I hope there are apprentice quests along the way as well, these could be bottlenecks as well.
This is unlikely to happen and it easy to see why let's say you make a character but you want your main to be max or close to max level before starting on your crafters and probably craft with your main as well( many of them will). Now your starting your level 1 crafter hy this time by what people to gel like to get to max level should take at least 2 months or more, in this time there are so many people trading your mats around to where it felt that crafting took just about as long to level crafting compared to adventuring, is now completely lop-sided into tradeskilling taking a lot less time. Now like I have said at the beginning I do not mind if you can become max crafting and make the best armor for certain classes or potions and such but I believe they're should be something important in your craft that you have to go and get yourself, to reap the benefits instead of just feeding off sellers to make everything, now with that said I don't care that you can do this and make 95% of everything in your craft but giving someone 5% extra to doing both isn't that big of a difference and if you really think it is than all you have to do is level him up if you thinks it's that important or just settle with 95% and still make do money the choice is still yours to make
I don't follow your comments relating to mine.
Were you replying to comeone else?
Trasak said:Porygon said:Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level.
Similar to how WoW has different levels of tradeskilling (1-75, 75-150, 150-225 etc) but actually restrict your ability to level to the next "section" based upon your character level.
Requiring something around level 35 or so to allow max leveling tradeskilling. This also prevents players from having level 1 max tradeskilling alts and requires them to actually play the character.
I would actually prefer that once a crafter has gained all of their basic crafting technics and tools that they can make any level of gear. Your crafting skill dictates what quality of gear you can make but basically an apprentice armor smith can make level 5 gear and level 50 gear but both at say 50% of normalized value. A grand master armor smith could make gear at 150% of the normalized value.
I do think that there is some value to have truly epic materials only salvageable by specific craft masters deep in dangerous zones. I am not certain I would require them to be No trade though. If anything I would say that maybe specific crafting tools might need to be brought to say a volcanic forge to be fully tempered to the highest level. A master smith may also be needed to put a specific rock in the volcanic forge to create raw obsidian. Realistically you would also need to work the obsidian at a volcanic forge so the point may be mute.
I think there is something to this. I remembered a thing from another old game where skill in a conjuring ability determined the success in summoning. for instance. Level 10 summoning skill wrought 4 bandages, but level 20 wrought 9 bandages the better the skill the more could be summoned, up to max which would get a full stack. To Trasak's point perhaps the same kind of thing could be applied to tradeskills, a lower skilled crafter could make the item, but it would be less effective- similar to level gates on mentored armor where armor is still good, just made level appropriate. The crafter in gaining skill could improve the effectiveness (150%) but should the skill be capped or floored or gated to level? or to mats as I think the Op is suggesting? I think a compromise is in the environment?
Combined with a gate-keeper aspect of needing to be in a high level zone to craft a piece in a certain forge that makes the protect or guide quest more real. You are not protecting an NPC and fail the quest if the NPC dies, you are protecting a person. That current but now made old in pantheon quest mechanic is gone in favor of the sandbox- IF the person is too low a level the person just dies and needs to get back. The Deus Ex Ludicrum may encourage the player to want to level-up to be able to fight along with her mates to survive the dungeon and get to the forge considering how boxxing will be difficult as previously stated due to situational awareness- we're in there world now sort of thing. You may be motivated- by the game- to want to explore and "level"(horizontally?) to be able to obtain those No-trade/nodrop crafting mats -or raid only items?- to boost your own crafted armor to 200% plus effect.
((I could be swayed though, and am always open to discussion.))
Good - definitely the same here. These are development forums and far more useful to VR when the issues are highlighted by the clash of differing opinions. Fortunately among the people here we have a *lot* of differing opinions.
I think in this case a major reason for differing opinions is that we are working on different assumptions.
My assumption is that if crafting and adventuring are viewed as "separate but equal" it should take approximately the same time to get each of them to maximum level. Thus, if it takes 3 months to get to maximum level based on the number of hours I play, it should take my hypothetical level 1 crafter 3 months of crafting and harvesting to get to maximum crafting level. Assuming the high level does the harvesting, and assuming harvesting takes one third of the time to maximize a crafter, then the high level maximizes out in four months and the level one who need not harvest maximizes out in two months. Or, if one character does all, it maximizes everything out in 6 months.
Kass - if Pantheon were to work this way - and it very well may not - would that ease your concerns?
Now let us assume crafting is trivial and a level one can maximize crafting in a week if fed all the materials. Should this be allowed? I am inclined to say "yes" and that a player should be able to have a family of crafters that never adventure at all if fed materials by alts or guildmates. Realistic, after all. to have guild crafters whose value is arming and equipping the guild even if on accounts where *no* character is high level.
But I much prefer to see my assumption prove correct and have it take as much time to get a top grade crafter as a top grade adventurer. Differing career tracks and all that. So the people that race to maximum level simply have no time to raise crafting and *must* rely on other people for anything crafted. Fits in well with a game emphasizing interdependance.
Kass said:I see there are several people that share this sentiment, but I disagree. I could be swayed though, and am always open to discussion.
Here is my argument:
Let's say every player has one max character. You carefully choose which professions/trade skills you will take up. Let's say that you choose a profession that only 10% of the player population has also choosen. Your skills will be in demand, and your investment in choosing that skill and taking the time to level it up will be rewarded. Your work will be sought after by the community, because not every person will have access to a character that has that skill.
If every player can now hop on an 'alt' and at level 1 (arbitrary example) max that given trade skill (using their main to fuel the materials and gold needed), then that essentially makes the player at max level profession unimportant. There will be no demand. Every player will now have an alt level 1 in the city clicking their buttons and manufacturing the same thing. I personally hate that idea. "Hey I got everything I need to make that epic helment now". "Cool, let me hop on my level 1 armorer." "Wait, I got a level one of every profession, let me check my spreadsheet to figure out which one is my armorer". I know I got a little silly, but I think it's silly to allow it.
I think that by limiting low level players from crafting certain gear, it will allow the max level players who choose that profession to reap the benefits of that choice and investment.
One might also argue that if you choose a class that only 10% of players chose then your skills will be in more demand so everyone should be limited to one character.
I counter with the assertion that crafters and adventurers alike should not be artificially restricted. If you can have 100 alts then you're going to have at least one of every class. Likewise you could have at least one crafter for every craft. There's no good reason to discriminate against either classes or professions. Along the same lines, because some prefer only to adventure and others prefer a life of crafting forcing crafters to be adventurers or vice versa is yet another artificial restriction on playstyle.
Then, if it's possible to be a pure crafter (even as an alt), then it should be possible to trade any crafting material between characters so that the adventurer can be an adventurer and the crafter can be a crafter.
I can't even recall how many NOTRADE drops I've collected on characters past on the off chance I'd level up the tradeskill that used them but never did. Those items would have been far better off in the hands of someone who wanted to make something out of them than sitting in my bank/vault/storage for all eternity.
From an immersion perspective I very much like the idea of needing to travel to make certain crafts work at the highest levels. Needing to use a remote altar at night to add magical moon energies to your cloth before you craft garments from it. Travelling deep into the earth to find the lost forges, referenced in tattered manuscripts, to harness the power of the old world to forge magical steel.
I don’t mind if a level 1 and can get there, but I want crafters to travel to perform their art. I think they should need to find masters of their craft in the world at large to be taught skills they cannot gain on their own. There should be quests to learn recipes, books that can be found in lost libraries showing recipes.
I also like the idea of stats contributing to how well a trade skill improves. Strength for blacksmithing and mining, dexterity for fletching and tailoring etc. By making later recipes hard to find you offer crafter a way to find ways to make money from their craft. If only 10% of the servers blacksmith can make a certain sword then they can still make a profit from it. Once everyone can make a level 1 crafter and max skill with 100% of the recipes without leaving town you’ve basically made crafting useless. Prices will drop and open trade of crafted items will stagnate.
If there is a commission mechanic in the game, this issue will be solved.
If there is no such mechanic in game. And there are players that like to be a level 1 scout and level 100 blacksmith. Why block out this kind of players?
For the survivability of the game as a whole, it is a good aim to provide content and access to attract a wide array of players(-styles). There would be no-reason to block out none-destructive playstyles in a game. Especially in a multiplayer game.
This game requests a lot of time investement of the players to skill up. It will be much slower than most players are used to nowadays. This much so far, we already know. Any assumption, implication or speculation beyond that should be handled and marked as such. So all those who want to talk about those should remind themselves they are doing so within that certain context.
I like the idea of rewarding a player that invested huge amounts of time to get both 100 adventurer and crafter. A direct reward is that the player themselves have it easier to conquer obstacles that rely on both tradeskill and adventuring. Aside that, it would be a good thing to stimulate (not obligate!) players to invest more time into the game. Again this relates to the survival of the game as a whole. The dev"s could use an achievement systems that rewards such players with ingame status, gear, coin, fluff items. This kind of achievement system is definately within (my personal) expectations of this game. So this answers your issue partly.
If there is a player out there, level 1 scout and they have friends, guildmembers that want to help that person get those high end resources first hand, why should that not be allowed? To me that would be a beautiful thing, to see so many friendly people working together and supporting that crafter's playstyle. That is community-work. (if you get what I mean by that) Even if that level 1 scout finds a way to pay up and "hire" people to help him get there, this could be ok. Important side-note: As long as that does not create an exploid mechanic or abuse. But with the experience the dev's have already, it would seem fair to think, they will prevent that from happening or they will adjust the matter as it occurs in time. For those few players that thrive on boxing accounts..each their own server I'ld say. No harm there.
Finally, I favour the idea that items should be handled if you have the skill for it. This does not require a no-trade mechanic. It just entales that I will not be able to use that item in my inventory until I have raised my skill points high enough to do so. If I get my hands on an higher end item prematurely, I could choose to sell it, look for someone who can help me with it (aka someone who does have the appropriate skill level) or I can stash it away untill I raised my skillpoints high enough myself.
Overall, unless it's linked to a questprogression. No-trade items could be bypassed or the use of implementing such items could be avoided/bypassed as well, with some creative thinking. Encourage players to invest more time in the game, yes please. Block out, none-destructive playstyles..no thank you.
kreed99 said: Like others have stated i feel like tying levels to tradeskill max skill levels would make those tradeskills mean more and offer meaningful character development. However, this cuts out a large portion of the demographic that are only interested in crafting and commodities and not leveling. That being said.... i believe both arguments can be obtained with specific implementaion of no drop reagents or dangerous area’s where only certain combines can be processed(Amberfaet). I believe VR is looking for this balance and not fully implementing one way or the other. There are pro’s and con’s to either implementaion. And honestly someone will be upset with whatever is decided. Thats a given.
I believe we've alrdy been told that adventuring lvling will not influence crafting leveling, and that isn't what my topic is about like I've said before I don't mind a lvl 1 character maxing out their skill they desire to do, I simply am wanting someone who does both can make something that a lvl one crafter can't at least not very easily or almost impossible, plus I believe like I said if you have to go out and farm a certain mat, it's brings a reason to log into the game and do something you feel important to do, and like I also said I don't mind people doing 95% or shoot even 99% of their craft but I feel like if someone does both it should be rewarded in the fact they can make something a lvl 1 can not
Melamber said:I also like the idea of stats contributing to how well a trade skill improves. Strength for blacksmithing and mining, dexterity for fletching and tailoring etc.
IMO this is a poor system and just pigeon holes certain classes to take certain trades. If my wizard wants to be a Smith. theres no reason he should be limited, I'm sure precision is much more important than strength when it comes to smithing anyways.
Riahuf22 said:I believe we've alrdy been told that adventuring lvling will not influence crafting leveling, and that isn't what my topic is about like I've said before I don't mind a lvl 1 character maxing out their skill they desire to do, I simply am wanting someone who does both can make something that a lvl one crafter can't at least not very easily or almost impossible, plus I believe like I said if you have to go out and farm a certain mat, it's brings a reason to log into the game and do something you feel important to do, and like I also said I don't mind people doing 95% or shoot even 99% of their craft but I feel like if someone does both it should be rewarded in the fact they can make something a lvl 1 can not
Wouldnt this be the same thing as limiting crafting to level...
If a level one can max crafting, but only craft basic items.. the only real benefit would be to feed minor items to other tradeskillers, like a Smith making metal rings to give to a leather worker... which is exactly what we would want to avoid, since it limits social interaction.
I just dont see a real difference between limiting what you can craft, and limiting your ability to craft... idk
Rephrasing what some have already noted, IRL and in most fantasy literature, the various crafters are essentially classes. But, as I see it, the fundamental flaw in the design of MMORPGs is making crafting an add-on to characters that are primarily defined by their adventuring-oriented class. In tabletop RPGs, PC professional skills are usually pretty limited, and they’re included more for RP flavor than to materially benefit the character. By contrast, in a lot of MMORPGs, almost anything other than unique/artifact items can be crafted by adventures, mostly in their spare time.
The philosophy of Pantheon is that adventuring is better when it’s challenging/risky, benefits from tight coordination by small groups with complementary abilities, and typically involves periodic, brief periods of down time that foster social interaction. I’m trying to imagine mechanics for crafting that would conform to the same philosophy that Pantheon is trying to bring to adventuring. If these things make adventuring fun, shouldn’t they make crafting fun too, if not always for the same players?
I don't really understand your issue here. In theory, if a level 1 charcacter is a level 50 trade level, and somehow manages to get a bunch of high level materials from an auction house or by high level donations, why are you going penalize someone for that? If they are interested in just crafting, let them craft. They will have to spend a lot of plat anyways paying for those high level materials. Not to mention it sticks with lore. Sure there were blacksmiths that could fight, but most of the time the master crafters spent most of their time crafting.
Sekurity said:I don't really understand your issue here. In theory, if a level 1 charcacter is a level 50 trade level, and somehow manages to get a bunch of high level materials from an auction house or by high level donations, why are you going penalize someone for that? If they are interested in just crafting, let them craft. They will have to spend a lot of plat anyways paying for those high level materials. Not to mention it sticks with lore. Sure there were blacksmiths that could fight, but most of the time the master crafters spent most of their time crafting.
The issue. Is that people ate arguing things like "no auction houses" because it limits player interaction and they want a social game.
Well with that sentiment. By allowing a level 1 the ability to craft the same as a level 50. You limit the need for social interaction between players. I can just make level 1 alts to max my trade skills and never need to talk to anyone else. It also trivializes the selection of trade skills. If I can have 1 of everything. Then choosing to be a blacksmith on my main means nothing.
Porygon said:I can just make level 1 alts to max my trade skills and never need to talk to anyone else. It also trivializes the selection of trade skills. If I can have 1 of everything. Then choosing to be a blacksmith on my main means nothing.
Isn't the root of the issue that we assume trade skills can be leveled for the cost of materials, and that they don't require the sort of RL time, individual player (not character) skill development, and interaction that leveling a class requires?
Someone with the time and skill could max-level and gear one of each class, allowing them to assume any role in a given group, or to optimize against certain challenges. No one seems to worry about that too much, unless they're worried about twinking in PvP. I think there is less concern becuase of the clear cost in effort and the individual accomplishment evident in doing so.
If gaining a level in a profession was of equal difficulty to gaining the equivalent level in an adventuring class, would you still have this concern?
Porygon said:By allowing a level 1 the ability to craft the same as a level 50. You limit the need for social interaction between players. I can just make level 1 alts to max my trade skills and never need to talk to anyone else. It also trivializes the selection of trade skills. If I can have 1 of everything. Then choosing to be a blacksmith on my main means nothing.
If adventuring is "more important" and you can have "1 of everything" why should tradeskills be any different? Choosing a tradeskill shouldn't be any more or less meaningful than choosing a class.
I'm not sure whether you share the sentiment you posted. I'm just responding to your quote.