Now I can tell a lot of people might not agree with these idea, becuase of whatever reason they can come up with, but a feature like this rewards chatacters they both upgrade their character through expriecncing the world and lvling their craft, and I'm not saying every high level tradeskilling mat to become no trade I'm saying just enough of them to make it to where if you truly want to master your craft you have to both lvling the tradeskill and lvl your charter to make particular items, now I alrdy know people are going to be like lvl your character should have nothing to with your craft, and to a point I'm not saying that at all, you can max out your craft, you can make items that require you to have max crafting, I'm just saying there should be some items that for someone who levels both should have a slight advantage in their craft than someone who just levels up their craft.
Riahuf22 said:Not really a fear, I just believe someone who progresses to 2 different aspects of the game should gain something from it other than someone who only progresses in one.
They do. They can much more easily acquire their own mats as well as reach the hinted at special crafting stations in dangerous parts of the world.
Iksar said:Riahuf22 said:Not really a fear, I just believe someone who progresses to 2 different aspects of the game should gain something from it other than someone who only progresses in one.
They do. They can much more easily acquire their own mats as well as reach the hinted at special crafting stations in dangerous parts of the world.
Ok, but tha isn't really an advantage becuase more than likely their main could do this for them so therefore no advantage at all, so therefore makes your whole point void, which is where the no trade items comes in it makes it to where if you leveled up a character and made him a blacksmith than he would be able to make something a lvl 1 blacksmith cant, I'm not even hindering him from getting to max level crafting or anything like that just the fact there might be something he can't make simply becuase he can survive in an area that he needs to be in to acquire it
Hmm...this sounds pretty limiting to me...but then again so do most applications of "No Drop". It would be pretty common, imo, for a blacksmith, or a weaponsmith, or a...you name it, to work on/with materials that they did not/could not aquire themselves. How many smiths built a mineshaft, dug out, refined and smelted their components on their own, or grew/processed their own cotton from seeds to plants to harvest to the loom to dyeing, etc? Maybe some did part of the work themselves, but I bet they didn't manage to excell at their craft like a pure artesian could.
I tend to agree with what Iskar said above. Needing some special condition in order to refine and process the ore into an item feels like a much more natural way to handle it.
Sure, your level 1 halfling bard blacksmith can own the Adamantium Scale of the Dragon. However, he may not have the Mythril Hammer of Pounding or be able to get to/survive at the Lavapool Forge, which are the only hammer hard enough/heat source powerful enough to soften and shape Adamantium.
The example above flows better than having this item that you just can't drop now that you have it. At least, from my point of view ;)
"No Drop" or "No Trade" only makes sense (IMHO) for magical items that can be thought to "bind" to the initial user. Using No Drop for common materials found throughout the world and used by crafters doesn't make any sense to me. Economy is based on trade. If traders can't actually trade anything there will be no traders. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for the materials required to craft a tradable item to be non-tradable themselves.
I'm not a big fan of No Trade to begin with. It's heavily overused in games as a lazy means of regulating the economy. And to me, at least, it's a big immersion breaker.
Riahuf22 said:Now I can tell a lot of people might not agree with these idea, becuase of whatever reason they can come up with, but a feature like this rewards chatacters they both upgrade their character through expriecncing the world and lvling their craft, and I'm not saying every high level tradeskilling mat to become no trade I'm saying just enough of them to make it to where if you truly want to master your craft you have to both lvling the tradeskill and lvl your charter to make particular items, now I alrdy know people are going to be like lvl your character should have nothing to with your craft, and to a point I'm not saying that at all, you can max out your craft, you can make items that require you to have max crafting, I'm just saying there should be some items that for someone who levels both should have a slight advantage in their craft than someone who just levels up their craft.
I can see you what are saying, but I have never really liked linking leveling to crafting and making the progession in both. It places more importance that leveling is NECESSARY GO DO IT NOW when I think leveling is just another thing not the focus. I think crafting is best to me when its thought of as its own progression that you can level without your character having to go level. Do you have to be an expierenced adventurer with mulitple boss kills to knit some huge bags? No, you need to have needles and thread and have a good knitting skill that has nothing to do with your kills. Now should a high level pattern drop off a high level kill and be bound to you? Maybe, then you do have some reward in leveling along with your craft. But should you be able to master your craft without something like that pattern? I think so.
I do like the idea of something like if you are a seasoned adventurer and you are a blacksmith and you want to make a unique, hard to get sword for yourself, then out in the world there can be mats you can gather that bind to you to make the sword that binds to you. But if you make that sword created with bound mats usable for everyone, then it will sell for a lot and you get an in game pay-to-win economy where the richest people get the most geared alts. Not sure if I'm making sense haha but crafting is so much fun and I find it limiting when I have to go do something unrelated to what I am trying to craft (ie level to 20 randomly before I can learn an advanced skill in my craft)
In the Crags of the Whispering Lands, there live storm drakes. Distant kin to dragons, these scaly winged reptiles are dangerous predators, laying many a would-be hunter low. However, hunted they are, for their hides are highly prized. When properly treated and tanned (a process which, it is said, is nearly as difficult as killing the beast in the first place), drake leather is stronger, lighter, and more flexible than any other type of leather, enabling outfitters to make truly wondrous armor for those who don't want to walk around in suits of metal.
Now let's say we have two individuals. I'll call them Bob, and Joe. Bob is a ranger, and excels at tracking and hunting the beasts of Terminus. Joe is a journeyman outfitter. While he has some small skill with a sword, Joe really prefers crafting to adventuring.
In Riahuf22's implementation:
- Bob has to deal with the storm drakes every time he goes to the Whispering Lands, but since the skins are no trade, and he doesn't craft, he has nothing he can do with them. Bob would really like some drake leather armor, but it's exceedingly expensive, since there are only a few crafters that can hunt it on their own, and they effectively have a monopoly on the stuff - thus, pricing it out of reach of most normal adventurers. Eventually, Bob just gives up on crafted armor altogether, and instead spends a lot of time to go out and build a set of looted armor. He would have really liked the look of the drake leather, but it's just too expensive.
- Joe wants to be a competitive outfitter, but because his adventuring skills aren't very high, he can't compete with drake armor at all. He tries making other, lesser armor, but most days nothing sells, because everyone wants drake armor, even if they end up having to pay through the nose to it. Because it's so hard to make a sale, Joe isn't able to afford the things he'd need to learn more recipes and compete on the market in different ways. Eventually Joe gives up on crafting altogether, since he feels like he'll never be able to compete. He spends some time adventuring, but it doesn't really hook him, and after a while he just gives up altogether and goes off to play some other game.
In Nephele's implementation:
- Bob kills a few drakes when he's in the area and acquires some drake skins. When he asks around, he finds out that they can be used to make drake leather armor which he's heard is really nice stuff. Bob goes and looks and sees that buying drake leather armor straight up seems pretty expensive. But, since he can get the skins, he finds a crafter (Joe) who's willing to make the armor for him much more cheaply, if Bob supplies the skins. Bob brings the drake skins to Joe, and gets a set of drake leather armor in return.
- Joe wants to compete more with other outfitters and lucks out when Bob asks him about drake leather armor. Not only does Joe make a set of armor for Bob, and advance his own skill while doing that, but he also strikes a deal with Bob - he'll pay Bob for any more drake skins Bob wants to bring him. Joe takes the extra skins and makes armor to sell on the market, enabling him to compete. As his supplier, Bob also earns money by keeping Joe supplied with skins. Joe eventually joins Bob's guild, and goes on to participate in a lot of adventures.
I understand and support the intent of wanting there to be a reason for people to progress in both the adventuring and the crafting sphere. However, breaking the game economy, and potentially forcing some players to spend time on activities that don't really interest or appeal to them, is not the right way to achieve that goal.
My opinion.
Riahuf22 said:Not really a fear, I just believe someone who progresses to 2 different aspects of the game should gain something from it other than someone who only progresses in one.
Several of us do progress both aspects, just on different characters.
Realistically, how many master craftsmen are also master soldiers? Not many have the time and energy for both.
If you want to be a competitive, professional crafter, you need to make the best items before everyone else undercuts you. You don’t have time to max adventure level, then start crafting.
Lastly, by making the mats no drop, you are often wasting the drops on adventureres that will never use them. They will get a useless mat drop instead of something cool. And, you ruin the interdependence with adventurers gaining items and selling them to crafters that need them.
I absolutly HATED the quest in EQ and EQ2 that made me level up crafting to complete an adventuring quest. If I remember correctly in EQ2 one of the Epic's quest required me to be a certain level of profiency in crafting to complete the quest. That was a nightmare. I dispise crafting (I love all you crafters btw, you all do something I cannot) it's just something I can't do. I think the highest level of crafter I ever got in EQ2 was level 21. I would litterally fall asleep while crafting. Just can't do it.
Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level.
Similar to how WoW has different levels of tradeskilling (1-75, 75-150, 150-225 etc) but actually restrict your ability to level to the next "section" based upon your character level.
Requiring something around level 35 or so to allow max leveling tradeskilling. This also prevents players from having level 1 max tradeskilling alts and requires them to actually play the character.
Iksar said:A determined person could get around just about any roadblock assuming crafting is in no way tied to adventure level. No drop? Park the crafting alt near whatever item it is, swap to main and get item to drop, log out and loot corpse with crafting alt.
This is true,this could happen but I was thinking pantheon was going to make it difficult or almost impossible for low level characters to travel through high level zones, kinda the opposite for high level, where they can walk past greens and never get attacked reds could aggro you in some instances at Los kind of thinking, but I could be wrong about this.
Beefcake said:Riahuf22 said:Not really a fear, I just believe someone who progresses to 2 different aspects of the game should gain something from it other than someone who only progresses in one.
Several of us do progress both aspects, just on different characters.
Realistically, how many master craftsmen are also master soldiers? Not many have the time and energy for both.
If you want to be a competitive, professional crafter, you need to make the best items before everyone else undercuts you. You don’t have time to max adventure level, then start crafting.
Lastly, by making the mats no drop, you are often wasting the drops on adventureres that will never use them. They will get a useless mat drop instead of something cool. And, you ruin the interdependence with adventurers gaining items and selling them to crafters that need them.
I understand this Beefcake and like I said above I'm not stopping you from becoming a master craftmen, by any means at all, like for instance your a tailor that is a master at your craft you can make the best set of armor that taoliring can make for casters, monks, and such but might need a may from a high level zone to make a the best bag, but I can say that I do like iksar idea to about the crafting stations in difficult parts of the world as well but I don't see why they can't Co exsist
Akilae said:"No Drop" or "No Trade" only makes sense (IMHO) for magical items that can be thought to "bind" to the initial user. Using No Drop for common materials found throughout the world and used by crafters doesn't make any sense to me. Economy is based on trade. If traders can't actually trade anything there will be no traders. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for the materials required to craft a tradable item to be non-tradable themselves.
I'm not a big fan of No Trade to begin with. It's heavily overused in games as a lazy means of regulating the economy. And to me, at least, it's a big immersion breaker.
Wasn't talking about a common drop tradeskill item throughout the entire world more like a drop that drops in a particular zone off certain mobs or maybe any mob in that area that way when you done leveling, alrdy maxed out your tradeskilling, your done raiding for the week, or whatever you want to do you still have a reason to log in, now granted their could be other things other than these items to keep you playing but I think having some items no drop could keep you playing the game to acquire them for hours added to the week load of things to do where it might affect others in a negative way, so does every other decision that you make about a game but I think for people who wants to do a little bit of everything, should have to do a little bit of everything.
((Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level. ))
Several people have said this, so I will take the opportunity to point out that this is not at all necessarily true. In Vanguard, for example, the theory was that the different aspects of the game were separate and you didn't need to gain adventure level to raise your crafting or diplomacy - and vice versa.
Obviously a high adventure level makes many things easier but that is not the same thing at all as imposing a hard limit. Such as you cannot craft in tier two unless you are level 10 or higher, you cannot craft in tier 3 unless you are level 20 or higher etc.
I entirely fail to see how killing enough pigs to get to level 10 is in any slightest way relevant to how well I can smith a weapon or tailor some shoes or cook some food.
I liked the Vanguard system. I disagree with linking character level to crafting.
I do not entirely disagree with the OP's suggestion but I mostly disagree. I spend more time harvesting than crafting in MMOs. It seems better to me that a harvester should be able to raise money by selling resources. Even more so it seems better that a harvester should be able to provide materials to crafting brothers and sisters (alts or guildmates) and not require that each and every character that crafts also be a high level harvester.
As one who often gives away looted items to those that need them, I seldom have enough cash to buy things I desire.
But I often loot crafting materials, to sell/trade to crafters for cash and/or to provide materials for tings I would like crafted at a cheaper price.
Start making things NO DROP, and you not only stop crafters, but you stop others as well.
if you want to stop people from monoplizing and farming, try using LORE sparingly to stop Mortimer and Randolph Duke from cornering the juice market.
Porygon said:Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level.
Similar to how WoW has different levels of tradeskilling (1-75, 75-150, 150-225 etc) but actually restrict your ability to level to the next "section" based upon your character level.
Requiring something around level 35 or so to allow max leveling tradeskilling. This also prevents players from having level 1 max tradeskilling alts and requires them to actually play the character.
But why? Chances are that a player has at least one adventuring character and at least one crafting character but the two are not necessarily the same character(s). Likewise, some people prefer to stick to just crafting and buy all their materials from other players. There's nothing wrong with that style of play and no real reason to artificially restrict it.
Even crafting mat drops from raid bosses should be tradable or the game is artificially restricting the crafter game. If the fear is that people who haven't killed Uberboss Dwarfmuncher can buy and use gear made from Mr. Dwarfmuncher's tanned hide why does that matter? In the end it doesn't affect your gameplay even a little bit (unless you're the one who sold UBDM's hairy flesh to the crafter and made a tidy profit).
In many years of playing MMORPGs I've never heard a good justification for making *any* crafting material NOTRADE.
Porygon said:Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level.
Similar to how WoW has different levels of tradeskilling (1-75, 75-150, 150-225 etc) but actually restrict your ability to level to the next "section" based upon your character level.
Requiring something around level 35 or so to allow max leveling tradeskilling. This also prevents players from having level 1 max tradeskilling alts and requires them to actually play the character.
I would actually prefer that once a crafter has gained all of their basic crafting technics and tools that they can make any level of gear. Your crafting skill dictates what quality of gear you can make but basically an apprentice armor smith can make level 5 gear and level 50 gear but both at say 50% of normalized value. A grand master armor smith could make gear at 150% of the normalized value.
I do think that there is some value to have truly epic materials only salvageable by specific craft masters deep in dangerous zones. I am not certain I would require them to be No trade though. If anything I would say that maybe specific crafting tools might need to be brought to say a volcanic forge to be fully tempered to the highest level. A master smith may also be needed to put a specific rock in the volcanic forge to create raw obsidian. Realistically you would also need to work the obsidian at a volcanic forge so the point may be mute.
Trasak said:I would actually prefer that once a crafter has gained all of their basic crafting technics and tools that they can make any level of gear. Your crafting skill dictates what quality of gear you can make but basically an apprentice armor smith can make level 5 gear and level 50 gear but both at say 50% of normalized value. A grand master armor smith could make gear at 150% of the normalized value.
Wouldn't that just clutter up the player economy, similar to but in a lesser extent as you see in things like Diablo games where you can have 10 different versions of the same item with varying stat rolls?
Porygon said:Your ability to level trade skills should be directly tied to your character level.
Similar to how WoW has different levels of tradeskilling (1-75, 75-150, 150-225 etc) but actually restrict your ability to level to the next "section" based upon your character level.
Requiring something around level 35 or so to allow max leveling tradeskilling. This also prevents players from having level 1 max tradeskilling alts and requires them to actually play the character.
Luckily, that’s not their stated plan. They intend to keep them separate.