@OP: To me hitting max level is not a goal in itself, on the contrary. When it happens, I'm inclined to roll an alt or leave the game altogether, depending on how much I enjoyed the first ride and how much content is still available for me to explore in other parts of the world.
How long I think it should take is governed by the amount of appropriate content there is for each level range. You won't hear me complain if I haven't reached max level after ten years, but I will complain if I cannot find anything new to do for my current level. So, the longer the better, only limited by the amount of content that VR are capable of producing.
The concept of “Max Level” is one of the things I dislike about the linear class growth based games. Each level makes your character significantly more powerful than the last level, including gaining new abilities that change how you play your class. All of your content needs to be tiered based on your level to keep the math remotely challenging and not autowin/autolose which limits the percentage of the game content appropriate to your character to a narrow band around your current level.
Skill or build point based games typically have a very rapid gaining of basic abilities and a very slow growth in magnitude of power with an ever decreasing efficiency in the return on build points. This allows a 300 build point character to not be much weaker than a 500 build point character in the same primary focus. The benefit to the 500 build point character is that they could be much better-rounded in defensive build points or also have a 200 point secondary tree in addition to the 300 build point tree that the first character has. So long as your equipment heavily effects what you can do and each role requiring fairly different equipment (at least in the weapon/tool slot) the actual game balance effect of having two classes is light.
All of your real adventuring content is designed with 300 focused build point characters in mind with different difficulties being scaled off that. The 500 focused build point character would only be 10% stronger than the 300 focused build point character with the same gear. The 300 build point character took 44850 experience (Sigma(N) 25 to 300) vs the 500 build points taking 124950 (Sigma(N) 25 to 500). Mobs would award around 1% of their build points in exp on a solo kill encouraging you to face as strong of monsters as you can without dying.
This game design style though is very different than what most people are used too and I have a feeling this crowd (and poor Joppa) would rather swallow broken glass then convert Pantheon to a build point logarithmic system rather than a rigid linear class based system, though it would actually not be too hard and would make developing the rest of the game much faster and easier.
We can debate skill versus level forever, but to no end.
Pantheon will be based on levels, and even if I *really* felt skill was better I wouldn't want them to start over again.
Where I agree that hitting maximum level shouldn't be that critical is that:
1. Dungeons or raids shouldn't require maximum level or any other level for that matter. Let anyone try if they can get to the mob.
2. Maximum level shouldn't suddenly allow the use of much better gear. 49 to 50 should allow slightly better gear just as 29 to 30 might. Or whatever maximum level is.
3. Maximum level shouldn't suddenly give much stronger abilities or a whole new AA type system. If you have an AA type system let us start using it much earlier as in many games even if *some* of its abilities require a huge amount of experience to unlock - experience you won't get until at or near maximum level.
So, one thing I love about Shards of Dalaya was their "Adapt" system. Their were group/raid bosses scattered through Dalaya that had a Max Engage level. If you were higher than or had buffs that were higher than the max engage than you would not be able to assist in the fight (healer, damaging, anything), you also couldn't obtain any of the loot. This caused entire guilds to be created around them. This progress crawl allowed and longer respawn of the mobs created several "max levels" throughout the game. This combined with the item xp from the game, where you could level up items from these adept bosses or certain quests, allowed players to hit a desired level within range of fighting several of these adept mobs, and while waiting on the respawn timers, to lock their leveling exp and go out in the world and enjoy social aspects and grouping while leveling their hard earned loot so they can be strong for the next round of that boss.
Accessdenied said:I wouldn't be upset to see some kind of system in Pantheon where max level wasn't something that made people feel they needed to rush to. But more of a long term achievement and status symbol.
For the journey to really matter and the feeling of needing to rush to max ASAP to be minimized is going to take throwing modern MMO itemization out the window.
I'm pretty convinced that the gearing treadmill is the main cause at this point. When little you do before max level matters and all gear is better level by level then it all feels pointless next to the "end-game." Why spend the extra time doing long/difficult quests or try to camp a rare named for a drop that will be replaced in 5/10/15 levels when that time would be better spent just grinding toward max?
Iksar said:Accessdenied said:I wouldn't be upset to see some kind of system in Pantheon where max level wasn't something that made people feel they needed to rush to. But more of a long term achievement and status symbol.
For the journey to really matter and the feeling of needing to rush to max ASAP to be minimized is going to take throwing modern MMO itemization out the window.
I'm pretty convinced that the gearing treadmill is the main cause at this point. When little you do before max level matters and all gear is better level by level then it all feels pointless next to the "end-game." Why spend the extra time doing long/difficult quests or try to camp a rare named for a drop that will be replaced in 5/10/15 levels when that time would be better spent just grinding toward max?
I think another problem is that everyone is use to this and have a tendency of looking for the best gear, which is usually end game anyways.
A lot of people never knew what the best gear was and just played the game.
So I think it will come down to how much information we get our hands on in Alpha and Beta stages. If they allow us into everything...then there will be guides and spots and what drops what on the internet that you can look up. If they keep it secretive and a mystery...then no one will know what to get or where to get it, so it will feel more organic IMO.
I honestly dont care how long it takes to get to max level. ALL that matters to me is that the adventure to getting there, is fullfilling and meaningful, that I have memorable experiences and that I meet interesting people with whom I forge new friendships and meaningful relationships. It seems this is in tune with Brad and the teams vision and goal.
Pantheon should not be just a game, but an immersive experience akin to another dimension of reality to lose youself in and "become" a part of through your character and its/your interactions within its realm of reality and all the others whom join you within it.
Ok, I'm going to put out one of those opinions that people usually freak out and start the flaming over. Just remember it's only an opinion, so try to think ouside the box for a moment.
I would like to see VR break out of the box and try something altogether different. Lock Max Level to 50... forever. If Max (aka "End Game") really was.
VR is already launching Pantheon with each race having there own starting city, this if done right is a huge undertakeing.
VR has already said there is to be something called Progeny. Although they have given us little info about it.
There are problems with todays games that few can come up with valid ways to fix. Racing to max level is one. Deserted starting cities is another. People/Guild locking down high end content is still another.
WHAT IF. Max Level was always 50, once there your options are to stay there, start an alt, Quit, or Progeny. Progeny is to retire a character and start another with some benifit. (Why would you rush to Max in this case?) Now this skilled player is running in another starting zone (I see that as new content) keeping the starting zones populated, not locking down high end content for BIS (after you progeny you can't use the gear anyway so you salvage it and your Progeny starts out with some high end mats for crafting).
Six starting cities could offer 6 times through the game (6x50 levels at launch)
Expansions come out they always offer a new race (50 more levels) and even more content to existing 1-50 levels) in each of the previous starting levels. 5 expansions down you could even Progeny back to your original character race and class for a whole new experience due to 5 expansions added to your original home city.
Yes I already know "but I ONLY ever want to be a Halving Druid" you can.. but you just need to be at End Game or play an alt... they can't give everybody everyting.
MauvaisOeil said:Keno Monster said:Porygon said:It does not matter how long it takes (how many hours) the same server dynamic will exist. Hardcore players will achieve max level at roughly half the speed (or faster) and casuals will have a harder time catching up.
To be honest, by making it take longer to hit max, you're not hurting the hardcore players. We will do whatever we need to do to accomplish that goal. It only hinders the casual players from being able to compete in any way.
You're making a black and white statement.
Completely yes.
Well it's a common method on this forum to reduce something to "nothing" and then use it as an argument, nobody is beeing hurt by a longer leveling process if the core of the game is about leveling and not beeing max level. Too many people got used of "the real game begins at cap", and it should cease.
Except we already know that the game is going to feature an endgame. Which means it will be partially focused on being max level.
You can only make leveling so interesting, eventually players are going to hit the level cap and need something to do.
Iksar said:For the journey to really matter and the feeling of needing to rush to max ASAP to be minimized is going to take throwing modern MMO itemization out the window.
I'm pretty convinced that the gearing treadmill is the main cause at this point. When little you do before max level matters and all gear is better level by level then it all feels pointless next to the "end-game." Why spend the extra time doing long/difficult quests or try to camp a rare named for a drop that will be replaced in 5/10/15 levels when that time would be better spent just grinding toward max?
This pretty much exactly. Most of you guys with 500+ posts have seen my logarithmic growth posts and one of the keys to that concept is that gear should not improve by more than double from level 1 to max level. Most of the item power growth being in the first third of the leveling curve. In a structure like this “end game” could start at level 30 and REALLY hard end game would be the level 50 content but the reward for the level 50 content would be at most 25% better than the level 30 rewards.
Likewise if classes have all of their main abilities by level 30 (which do not scale on level, only gear),then classes will be able to fully fulfill their roles at level 30. Working towards level 50 only gives you specialized versions of the same power level abilities What changes from level 30-50 is the complication of combat and the need for different specialized responses to those complications. The level 30 content would not require those specialized skills so at most a level 50 fully geared character would be 25% more powerful than level 30 characters in level 30 content.
The upside to this is that all of the level 30-50 content could be considered full powered end game and more than 75% of the game content and 95% of the character play time could be focused on these zones and levels.
The biggest downside to making level 30-50 fairly level is it is hard to give a player the feeling of accomplishment. This can be done through titles, appearance and to some degree gated access to game features of non-combat value. Over all it’s a hard sell and like Iksar said is really going to throw modern MMO itemization and level growth out the window.
*edited for too much coffee run on sentances*
Zorkon said:Ok, I'm going to put out one of those opinions that people usually freak out and start the flaming over. Just remember it's only an opinion, so try to think ouside the box for a moment.
I would like to see VR break out of the box and try something altogether different. Lock Max Level to 50... forever. If Max (aka "End Game") really was.
VR is already launching Pantheon with each race having there own starting city, this if done right is a huge undertakeing.
VR has already said there is to be something called Progeny. Although they have given us little info about it.
There are problems with todays games that few can come up with valid ways to fix. Racing to max level is one. Deserted starting cities is another. People/Guild locking down high end content is still another.
WHAT IF. Max Level was always 50, once there your options are to stay there, start an alt, Quit, or Progeny. Progeny is to retire a character and start another with some benifit. (Why would you rush to Max in this case?) Now this skilled player is running in another starting zone (I see that as new content) keeping the starting zones populated, not locking down high end content for BIS (after you progeny you can't use the gear anyway so you salvage it and your Progeny starts out with some high end mats for crafting).
Six starting cities could offer 6 times through the game (6x50 levels at launch)
Expansions come out they always offer a new race (50 more levels) and even more content to existing 1-50 levels) in each of the previous starting levels. 5 expansions down you could even Progeny back to your original character race and class for a whole new experience due to 5 expansions added to your original home city.
Yes I already know "but I ONLY ever want to be a Halving Druid" you can.. but you just need to be at End Game or play an alt... they can't give everybody everyting.
I'm okay with this, but I'd like to add something for those people who do want to keep playing the same character (me, for instance). EQOA had a class mastery system that allowed you to continue to play your character and earn points to make it better (not only just at max level, though most people waited until max level to earn a majority of their CM points). Alternate Advancement is another term for this, apparently. I think that would satisfy the thirst to continue to play your "main," while also still progressing your character. I've mentioned this a few different times on different threads, but I think it applies here as well. Max level should only be the end of changing the number on your character, but should be the beginning of making your character ready to attack the harder, more difficult content. By having the option to continue to progress your character through "alternate advancement," I think it would extend the playing of your main that much longer.
@Neyos
Alternative Advancement points or class mastery points are another way to have a logarithmic power growth over a characters life time. It is also an interesting way to stack a skill based character game on top of a rigid class based game.
The first section of the game could be fully maturing your characters class, going from an apprentice to a master. Through this process you get all of your core abilities and learn how to use them. This section of the game could take place in the starter zones and the areas directly between the major cities by road.
Once you have passed your class mastery quests you enter the second phase of the game, skill specialization. The remainder of the zones are for characters that have passed their mastery quests and opened up the skill specialization trees. You can, in theory, get an unlimited number of Alternative Advancement points but each AA point takes more exp to earn than the last and each rank in a specific skill rewards a less efficient boost per AA point cost than the previous. Eventually you will reach a point where hundreds of hours will be require to gain a 1% improvement. At that point you have basically maxed out your character but are not tremendously more powerful then you were right after finishing your mastery quest.
Itemization in this system would basically only have one real tier of items but could have different quality levels through the pre master zone. After you have entered the master phase you are looking for items with special effects needed to face specialized content. Higher tiers of items gain better magic abilities and more situational effects but are not significantly more powerful in magnitude than initial Mastery level gear.
The question with this system quickly becomes “Why even have the class levels?” If it only takes a relatively short amount of time to reach class mastery and it only covers about 25% of the game world then why not start the skill based system at level 1 on top of a fully fleshed out character class. Then all content will be fairly playable from an early point once you have reasonable gear.
Alternatively there could be a fairly lengthy (100+ hours) class quest you must complete before you are a full-fledged adventurer but after that you can begin specializing. Each step of your quest you gain a “level” but it’s more of a quest progression tracker and ability unlocker than a measure of increased power. Leveling is a function of completing your next quest objective but that could be a function of increasing x skill by x ranks which equates to killing mobs.
Once you have completed your mastery quest you can go out into the rest of the world and gain great gear, challenge raids, increase the potency of your favorite abilities and complete difficult lore based adventures.
Neyos said:Zorkon said:Ok, I'm going to put out one of those opinions that people usually freak out and start the flaming over. Just remember it's only an opinion, so try to think ouside the box for a moment.
I would like to see VR break out of the box and try something altogether different. Lock Max Level to 50... forever. If Max (aka "End Game") really was.
VR is already launching Pantheon with each race having there own starting city, this if done right is a huge undertakeing.
VR has already said there is to be something called Progeny. Although they have given us little info about it.
There are problems with todays games that few can come up with valid ways to fix. Racing to max level is one. Deserted starting cities is another. People/Guild locking down high end content is still another.
WHAT IF. Max Level was always 50, once there your options are to stay there, start an alt, Quit, or Progeny. Progeny is to retire a character and start another with some benifit. (Why would you rush to Max in this case?) Now this skilled player is running in another starting zone (I see that as new content) keeping the starting zones populated, not locking down high end content for BIS (after you progeny you can't use the gear anyway so you salvage it and your Progeny starts out with some high end mats for crafting).
Six starting cities could offer 6 times through the game (6x50 levels at launch)
Expansions come out they always offer a new race (50 more levels) and even more content to existing 1-50 levels) in each of the previous starting levels. 5 expansions down you could even Progeny back to your original character race and class for a whole new experience due to 5 expansions added to your original home city.
Yes I already know "but I ONLY ever want to be a Halving Druid" you can.. but you just need to be at End Game or play an alt... they can't give everybody everyting.
I'm okay with this, but I'd like to add something for those people who do want to keep playing the same character
I really like Zorkons proposal but I'm not sure if the majority would like it?
@Neyos That is a common misconception about progeny that I repeatedly see from people on these forums who have never played a game with a system similar to progeny. Restarting by using progeny IS the same character. If VR allows you to keep the name the same like in some other games it might be easier for people to realize that. It is simply continueing that characters progression. It increases that characters power in the long run, you just have to face the penalty first before that increased power is perceived by the player.
There are a lot of misconceptions of how progeny is going to work, exactly, and the biggest one is that it's going to mirror a specific feature from another game. I think most of the theory crafting we've seen about progeny was in relation to the goals that have been associated with it. There are a lot of ways that it might end up panning out. Permanent retirement, for example, has never been set in stone. That's probably the biggest misconception I have seen.
oneADseven said:There are a lot of misconceptions of how progeny is going to work, exactly, and the biggest one is that it's going to mirror a specific feature from another game.
The concept itself is not a new one and is utilized elsewhere so it makes it impossible that it will be a completely new idea that is 100% different from other games.
We have had this conversation multiple times 187. We both know you aren't in favor of restarting your main character using the progeny system. Everytime it is mentioned in a thread you are quick to try to change it hah. (even though you are a prime example of someone who has misconceptions about how these type of systems work because of a lack of experience with games that utilize these type of systems).
Let's not turn this into another off topic discussion about how you don't want a character to have to restart when using the, optional, progeny system.
Let's not turn this into a discussion where you accuse me of not understanding how "these type of systems work" when it has been acknowledged by VR that the "permanent retirement" factor probably isn't going to make the cut. You act like I'm the only person that isn't in favor of having to restart my main character in order to utilize the feature. That was the overwhelming feedback from the majority of players and that is exactly why it was stated that permanent retirement was probably taking things too far. As it stands, neither of us know "how progeny is going to work" exactly so it's better to be open-minded rather than telling people they are wrong or misinformed. Cheers.
oneADseven said:Let's not turn this into a discussion where you accuse me of not understanding how "these type of systems work" when it has been acknowledged by VR that the "permanent retirement" factor probably isn't going to make the cut. You act like I'm the only person that isn't in favor of having to restart my main character in order to utilize the feature. That was the overwhelming feedback from the majority of players and that is exactly why it was stated that permanent retirement was probably taking things too far. As it stands, neither of us know "how progeny is going to work" exactly so it's better to be open-minded rather than telling people they are wrong or misinformed. Cheers.
You aren't the only one. You are just the most vocal. In our prior discussions you have made it clear you haven't played games where you restart characters with a system similar to progeny so you simply don't have the experience to make a valid assessment.
I have made it clear that I have experience with a system that accomplished all of the goals that have been associated with progeny and that in essence, it was very similar. I'm not going to argue semantics with you. As soon as you can share a fleshed out description of how progeny is actually going to work then I'll buy into this idea that you have a deeper understanding of what progeny is supposed to be in this game. Until then you are just blowing smoke and aren't any more qualified than the next guy when it comes time to make a "valid assessment."
Nanoushka said: I love your posts on alternative ways of experiencing progress Trasak. I’d fully support a gear and stat system like you described, it would be interesting to see the emphasis with leveling not so much on power, but on gaining access to a wider range of all kinds of game aspects.
Thank you Nanoushka. I have been working on ideas on how to implement a logarithmic power growth by level in a way that is still fun to play. The following is the link to my original post on the concept. https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7131/leveling-exponential-linear-or-logarithmic-increase/view/post_id/132025
I have played enough MMOs to know that stratifying your game just by ever increasing HP, Damage done, Damage Healed, and Damage Prevented on both the player side and NPC side is just boring. It is also dooms the game to Mudflation, the majority of characters at max level and abandoned middle zones. Not that those games are not fun while they are still young but once adequate time passes everyone who is trying to level will eventually reach max level.
Finding a different progression solution that keeps players meaningfully in the greater majority of the game content regardless of how many hours they play is key to the long term health of the game. One solution is just have 3 max level zones for every one non max level zone and never raise the level cap but unless you build in something to do at max level you are eventually stuck with the same issue.
I would love to have a fire side beer and brain storming chat with Brad over the logarithmic growth concept at some point but alas I live quite far away and something tells me he is very busy at the moment.
Depending on how progeny is implemented, getting to max level won't really be viewed as end-game. I have experienced a "similar" feature in the past, but without knowing exactly how progeny is going to work, it's tough to say. I can attest that if it functions similar to the feature I have used ... it will solve all of the issues that have been associated with progeny. Here is a list:
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges.
It's a night and day difference when all of these things are considered strengths of the game rather than weaknesses. A lot of this depends on how many people actually utilize the feature, though, so if it ends up being something that only a small segment of the player-base is interested in, that would be really unfortunate.
In any event, I too have been a fan of Trasak's ideas. I know we have discussed this a little bit in the past but I do agree that something like progeny could actually be complimented by the logarithmic growth concept. Without knowing many of the details it's kind of hard to give legitimate feedback on it which means we're mostly left to our own devices when it comes time to speculate and theory craft. Always a pleasure seeing Trasak's mind at work though ... the profile image is very fitting!