I just wanted to kick this ball around with people and see who likes this and whatnot. Something I really loved about The Realm Online and Asheron's Call was that the max level was something that was a true personal achievement. Not a necessity. Much like the sensation that EQ players describe when they saw high levels doing cool things in their zones. In The Realm and AC, I remember seeing a level 90+ in Asheron's Call for the first time and a level 500+ in The Realm. My jaw hit the floor and it was something I wanted to achieve SO BAD, lol! In these games levels were never a real requirement, but certainly something you wanted to do more and more dangerous content. I wouldn't be upset to see some kind of system in Pantheon where max level wasn't something that made people feel they needed to rush to. But more of a long term achievement and status symbol.
Yeah, AC1 did alot of things right...except for their network. The rubberbanding in that game...sheesh!! Anyway, max level isn't what I, personally, aim for in a MMO. I also do not think it is a necessity, as OP pointed out with AC1 and TRO. If done right, max level can be so hard to obtain that making it there is an achievement unto itself, but not totally necessary to play the game.
BamBam said: I hope max lvl will take atleast 300 hours in Pantheon, even if rushed. .
Really, just 300 hours? If you play just 2 hours a day that is just over 5 months. Someone who plays 5 hours a day would reach it in just over 2 months. Can you imagine the clusterfudge of having the vast majority of a server's population all crammed at the top level for 7 or months while waiting for the next expansion to drop? While VR says that there will be a greater emphasis on horizontal progression than on vertical, I highly doubt the quantity of content appropriate for max level characters will be of sufficient. There will be fewer zones at high level than there were at the early levels. By this I mean we'll have 12 starting areas, one for each race. What are the chances we'll see 12 adequately sized max level dungeons?
This topic of max level and the speed at which it should take for the average person to get there has been debated since the first days of these forums and no concensus was ever reached unfortunately.
Vandraad said:BamBam said: I hope max lvl will take atleast 300 hours in Pantheon, even if rushed. .Really, just 300 hours? If you play just 2 hours a day that is just over 5 months. Someone who plays 5 hours a day would reach it in just over 2 months. Can you imagine the clusterfudge of having the vast majority of a server's population all crammed at the top level for 7 or months while waiting for the next expansion to drop? While VR says that there will be a greater emphasis on horizontal progression than on vertical, I highly doubt the quantity of content appropriate for max level characters will be of sufficient. There will be fewer zones at high level than there were at the early levels. By this I mean we'll have 12 starting areas, one for each race. What are the chances we'll see 12 adequately sized max level dungeons?
This topic of max level and the speed at which it should take for the average person to get there has been debated since the first days of these forums and no concensus was ever reached unfortunately.
I have to agree I want lvls to be like EQ was back in the day if not even more hard to obtain.... VR put so much time into this game I hope it take a year to max lvl... if content is there it shouldn't matter how long it takes
Vandraad said:This topic of max level and the speed at which it should take for the average person to get there has been debated since the first days of these forums and no concensus was ever reached unfortunately.
Here is the official response we have received:
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.
Now we don't know if "highly aggressive/competitive pace" means 12 hours per day or 20 hours per day and that is a huge difference. At the very low end of competitive pace, 10 hours per day for 2.5 months is 750 hours minimum. Maybe as much as 1500 hours.
philo said:Vandraad said:This topic of max level and the speed at which it should take for the average person to get there has been debated since the first days of these forums and no concensus was ever reached unfortunately.
Here is the official response we have received:
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.Now we don't know if "highly aggressive/competitive pace" means 12 hours per day or 20 hours per day and that is a huge difference. At the very low end of competitive pace, 10 hours per day for 2.5 months is 750 hours minimum. Maybe as much as 1500 hours.
Hi philo... I have a question for you.... AS long as it takes to make a good mmo... which seems to be 5 years or so... Don't you think that it is odd that you can get to max lvl in like 2.5 months?
I just feel like the people making these games let you lvl way to fast... if there is content in the game what does it matter what lvl you are really....
lets say you get at max lvl in 2 months then you do the raids.... you get your gear you are at high lvl... then what do you do... It will probably be a year for an exspansion... But if you make lvling slower and you have plenty of content in game no matter what lvl you are ... wouldn't that be better?
Just my thoughts on it... because I was that type of person to just race to the end... but I remember back in 1999 being in the oasis not really worried about lvling just having fun meeting people... I think that was a lot better...
Its cool if you disagree but I am wondering your thoughts on this
philo said:Vandraad said:This topic of max level and the speed at which it should take for the average person to get there has been debated since the first days of these forums and no concensus was ever reached unfortunately.
Here is the official response we have received:
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.Now we don't know if "highly aggressive/competitive pace" means 12 hours per day or 20 hours per day and that is a huge difference. At the very low end of competitive pace, 10 hours per day for 2.5 months is 750 hours minimum. Maybe as much as 1500 hours.
Sounds more like 400 hours to me. 750 hours would mean the 'normal pace' would be over 40 hours a week, the 'aggressive pace' would be 75 hours a week.
400 hours would count his aggressive rate as 40 hours a week and normal rate as over 20. Sure some players might play 80 hours/week, but those people are rather anomolies.
Mind you playstyles vary greatly and 400 hours for an efficient player is likely well over 800 for a casual. 750 hours for a highly efficient player would take a half as efficient 20 hour a week player 75 weeks. Well off his stated normal pace time frame.
Note: by efficiency I am obviously referring to xp/hour maximization.
philo said:Vandraad said:This topic of max level and the speed at which it should take for the average person to get there has been debated since the first days of these forums and no concensus was ever reached unfortunately.
Here is the official response we have received:
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.Now we don't know if "highly aggressive/competitive pace" means 12 hours per day or 20 hours per day and that is a huge difference. At the very low end of competitive pace, 10 hours per day for 2.5 months is 750 hours minimum. Maybe as much as 1500 hours.
Sounds more like 400 hours to me. 750 hours would mean the 'normal pace' would be over 40 hours a week, the 'aggressive pace' would be 75 hours a week.
400 hours would count his aggressive rate as 40 hours a week and normal rate as over 20. Sure some players might play 80 hours/week, but those people are rather anomolies.
Mind you playstyles vary greatly and 400 hours for an efficient player is likely well over 800 for a casual. 750 hours for a highly efficient player would take a half as efficient 20 hour a week player 75 weeks. Well off his stated normal pace time frame.
Note: by efficiency I am obviously referring to xp/hour maximization.
When certain MMO's came out in which our guild was going to play we had people who would take a week - or two - off just to play. We would play rediculous hours.
Worst was AION in 2010? Many of us were averaging 20 hours a day. It was nuts. Here is to hoping it does take time to get to "max" but not because it was the grind but because it was fun grinding through meaningful content, lore, and stories. There will always be that group or segment of players who will just grind to grind but there is a cost. Some of the best dungeons I personally ever experienced were in Ruins of Kunark. Kaesora, Kanors Castle, Droga, City of Mist, were all amazing and not max level.
Not that this will happen but I wished max level would be 20 for three months then 30 for three months then 40 for six months then 45 for six months.
That way, and we are in VR's world, we would be forced to experience and hopefully enjoy the ride.
edit: spelling
To the original post I am fine with what ever level cap they pick. But what ever it is I would expect a very large percentage of the people playing would get to the max level. I also feel a level cap is important but I am a fan of AA like system.
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.
This kind of surprised me I was expecting it to take lot longer. When I was playing EQ I felt a real need to be max level so I could play with my friends. I did not have as much time to play as they did but I was also young and honestly not very good at playing the game. I never did catch up to them until the level max was 65 and it took me over a year of playing.
When I started playing other MMO’s I still had this feeling that pushed me to level as fast as I could and it took far too long for me to realize it was a mistake. So now I put all my effort into having fun at the level I am at. So many MMO’s though now you level so quick that you never really get a chance to learn an area or the people that are around you. I would think at the pace quoted above I would likely run into similar issues with leveling speed I have had in other games.
Nytman said:Hi philo... I have a question for you.... AS long as it takes to make a good mmo... which seems to be 5 years or so... Don't you think that it is odd that you can get to max lvl in like 2.5 months?
I just feel like the people making these games let you lvl way to fast... if there is content in the game what does it matter what lvl you are really....
lets say you get at max lvl in 2 months then you do the raids.... you get your gear you are at high lvl... then what do you do... It will probably be a year for an exspansion... But if you make lvling slower and you have plenty of content in game no matter what lvl you are ... wouldn't that be better?
Just my thoughts on it... because I was that type of person to just race to the end... but I remember back in 1999 being in the oasis not really worried about lvling just having fun meeting people... I think that was a lot better...
Its cool if you disagree but I am wondering your thoughts on this
I don't think it's odd because it is just normal. Do I wish it would take longer to level? I would say yes 100% of the time, even in early EQ which some people use as the gold standard as far as slow leveling.
Developers can't produce content faster than players can play through it so they implement ways to artificially extend content. Things like AAs, rare drop rates, progeny, mentor systems, and other time sinks and grinds all increase replayability.
@alaphen
Those hourly numbers are just estimates but I think they are close.
At a more normal pace @ 18 weeks, 6 hours a day that is 756 hours so we are in the same general ball park if we are assuming that Joppas statement was simply based on hours of content and not factoring in efficiency differences between the competitive player vs the normal player. These are averages and we have to expect that even "normal" players will have longer, full day, sessions (at least on their days off) when the game is released. That would lend to then only playing a couple hours or skipping a day during other parts of the week as far as the average is concerned. (note that we are talking about "normal" players, not casual players)
My opinion on the hours played :
I do think that if we are in the lower range of those estimate numbers (which seems likely), in the 750 hour range, that is a fine length but if it's much shorter than that it may lead to serious issues down the line. If the "real" aggressive/competitive players who are playing 20+ hours a day hit max lvl in under a month I am concerned about player retention over the long run.
It all runs down hill. If you have your standard "hardcore" players hitting cap in 2 months and your normal players hitting cap in 3 months. Let's say another month worth of horizontal farming/raiding on top of that once you get there, I'm concerned people will get bored if we don't see new content additions every 6 months or less...and I don't think VR can sustain that pace.
In order to sustain the vision and offer a purely subscription model they need to keep people around long term. Increasing the time it takes to lvl is an easy way to extend content.
It does not matter how long it takes (how many hours) the same server dynamic will exist. Hardcore players will achieve max level at roughly half the speed (or faster) and casuals will have a harder time catching up.
To be honest, by making it take longer to hit max, you're not hurting the hardcore players. We will do whatever we need to do to accomplish that goal. It only hinders the casual players from being able to compete in any way.
Fully understanding many see it as a race/competition I have no interest in competing with anyone. I want to find a group of likeminded friends and enjoy the ride and I hope the ride is not too short.
Porygon said:It does not matter how long it takes (how many hours) the same server dynamic will exist. Hardcore players will achieve max level at roughly half the speed (or faster) and casuals will have a harder time catching up.
To be honest, by making it take longer to hit max, you're not hurting the hardcore players. We will do whatever we need to do to accomplish that goal. It only hinders the casual players from being able to compete in any way.
It is the faster players that run out of content, get bored and move on first...taking their money with them.
It's not about anyone "competing". Any competition, as far as speed of progression completion, is simply made up by the players.
Porygon said:It does not matter how long it takes (how many hours) the same server dynamic will exist. Hardcore players will achieve max level at roughly half the speed (or faster) and casuals will have a harder time catching up.
To be honest, by making it take longer to hit max, you're not hurting the hardcore players. We will do whatever we need to do to accomplish that goal. It only hinders the casual players from being able to compete in any way.
You're making a black and white statement.
Keno Monster said:Porygon said:It does not matter how long it takes (how many hours) the same server dynamic will exist. Hardcore players will achieve max level at roughly half the speed (or faster) and casuals will have a harder time catching up.
To be honest, by making it take longer to hit max, you're not hurting the hardcore players. We will do whatever we need to do to accomplish that goal. It only hinders the casual players from being able to compete in any way.
You're making a black and white statement.
Completely yes.
Well it's a common method on this forum to reduce something to "nothing" and then use it as an argument, nobody is beeing hurt by a longer leveling process if the core of the game is about leveling and not beeing max level. Too many people got used of "the real game begins at cap", and it should cease.
Nanoushka said: I loved about EQ that max level meant very little. An achievement as said before, nothing more. It wasn’t required to play the game, to raid, to get good gear. And because it took forever anyway, it was so easy to feel little pressure to get to max level, and just take it slow and do other things because they were enjoyable. I’d love that kind of ‘end game’ again. I really don’t mind it taking time, I see many advantages to that. Especially if it’s combined with not needing max level to actually play the game instead of this strange mindset of leveling and max level gameplay being two different things.
Your post really resonates with me. I think having the possibility to de-level is one of the best ways to ensure that players don't take on the "game starts at max level" mentality. We can see the end of the tunnel (max level) ... and every action along the way is either taking a step forward, or a step backward. Without de-leveling in tact, that final step to max feels monumental compared to all that came before it. This is because the risk vs reward spectrum is heavily skewed at max; instead of each death feeling like a tangible setback (our XP bar) we feel like we have already arrived at the final destination.
That is the power of the XP bar. It's a constant reminder that your play is being evaluated and that death is going to cost you time. If it's possible to just turn that switch off, it's only natural that players will strive to do that because they value their time and want to avoid feeling like they're wasting it. In many ways, the leveling phase (1-49) and max level (50) are like playing two different games. The leveling phase is constantly testing you and moving the progression dial in either direction, depending on your actions. The max level experience signifies that school is out and that you're free to mess around during summer break. (The interim between expansions that increase the level cap.)
All of that changes when it's possible to de-level. The stakes of life and death don't suddenly disappear when you get to max because you know that you're still going to be consistently evaluated. You can get your buffer up to 99% into level and that provides you the lifeline that you can take risks with. Every death is going to chip away at that lifeline and it's more visceral because you can actually see your XP bar moving. Risk vs Reward is paramount and it's never more evident than when you have something to lose. Keeping the XP bar relevant ensures that the loss of time doesn't become a non-factor, and that's incredibly important if we want our time spent to actually feel meaningful.