BeaverBiscuit said:If the zones are designed with training in mind, then most good camps will be off the main path and there will also likely be hidey holes along the way for groups to run to. Players who are on the main path are likely not engaged in anything pressing, and can likely run. If they can't even move a little bit to the side when someone yells train, they have accepted the risk of being preoccupied on a main path. When you train, where possible try to go to the side of people and that alone can help a lot.
You can be a martyr, but there will rarely be a good reason for it.
They've already said they are designing dungeon zones where you can camp, or crawl.
Not only that, but also designing a wide level range... if you're the level 40, training the level 15s... they literally stand no chance.
Eq1 was designed to where training "made sense" (even though it was still dumb). Pantheon is not.
Zorkon said:Iksar said:Would also help if proximity aggro was turned off once a mob is pulled, so during the train they wouldn't go onto another player/group's aggro list unless that group was actively engaged in combat with a socially linked mob at the time. So if a group was standing still in a hallway doing nothing the mobs would forget about them once their target(s) zone or die, but if the group was still there when the mobs path back they would be attacked.
Yes, that would eliminate the problem.
It would also cancel my subscription. I'm here for the promise of a LIVE world with all its dangers, not a dead world.
Trains are not a "problem" that the Devs need to "fix" they are a spontaneous challange, an exiting opportunity for the group to persevere or escape.The mobs themselves dangerous, running back to there various spawn points give us unpredictability. Again spontaneous and exciting. I already have boring tame world's to play in...strangely I dont.
A living world!
Pretty stupid to me if mobs remember a group and beeline to them when they are pathing back to their spawn. If they were chasing some other group and went out of sight around a corner/through a bunch of rooms or halls then they should mostly forget the individuals that were just standing there unless those people are still there when they turn the corner on their way back...or maybe you want it so that they just attack the easiest targets, so they stop chasing those they initially were chasing and proceed to beat the crap out of whomever gets closest.
Trains are still dangerous if they only aggro other groups actively engaged against similar social mobs or groups they happen upon while pathing back.
If the mobs ignore the other team until they path back then i would run through them if they werent actively engaged in a mob. This way they have a chance to run away to clear aggro also. If they were engaged in a fight i would take the death. I've seen trains like this that would blow through our group and we would just take a different route to the zoneline to clear aggro. The problem is going to be zonelines probably wont be as plentiful as EQ1 so many people will probably just train to the outside of a castle and take the death there. Making the CR easier, but the trains harder to avoid.
Kratuk said:Porygon said:This is one of the most confusing posts I've ever read. Trains ARE a problem... that's why players dont like when they are intentionally trained. Some other group that isnt good enough to fight in an area constantly training another doesn't create a living world. It just serves to annoy the group that is actually trying to exp.
Like.... saying that random mobs being trained on you is exciting would be the same as saying "I would randomly like mobs to spawn on me at random times without warning".
Nobody WANTS that.
I think what he probably means is that trains add an unpredictable and somewhat chaotic chance of something going unexpectedly wrong. This can end in a bit of an adrenaline pumping encounter or you could get rekt. Intentionally trainings are a bit of a jerk move but when taken as it is, accidental mishaps, they do keep things interesting.
I don't think anyone is saying "train me please, I want to die", but they are acknowledging that those mishaps can make for a potentially fun moment and possible social event. I can recall quite a few stories where a train happened and there were 3 or more groups joined together fighting back the chaos. That was loads of fun and a good way to meet new folks. Likewise, it sometimes went horribly bad and we all died screaming in the dark. ;p
But like all things you'll certainly have an assclown or two that will pop up once in a great blue moon to be an ass. I'm pretty sure VR won't tolerate intentional training, but the unintentional is where some folks are looking at the potential for a little fun chaos.
I played both EverQuest and EverQuest II and if I recall correctly, EQII had plenty of flaws at launch. One of which was you couldn't do split pulls as the mobs were group linked. They were also on a leash and, unless memory fails me, when leashed would ignore any and all things on their way back to their spawn location. That was terrible watching 20 mobs tra lala their way right over top of me back to their spawn.
That's the funny thing about some of this old school mechanics, some people choose to look at it more from the "it can hinder my progression" view rather than what it can do for social interaction. Trains, death penalties, corpse runs, and even experience loss while at a glance seem to be mechanics just for harsh and punishment, all also have deep connections to encouraging social gameplay. Trains while being a pain can end up making groups you might not otherwise give a look at work together when all hell breaks loose. And when the dust settles if you've got good peeps around you rezzes will get tossed for the fallen and you'll have met some new people. Death penalties encouraged everyone to play smart and help others do the same while looping into that rez part if you go down and there isn't a rezzer in the group. Or maybe you gun for a higher rez %. Regardless, you're talking to clerics, paladins, ect you might not have known before. Corpse runs in EQ would get you making friends with a good necromancer or someone really skilled at sneaking down to drag that corpse back up.
Now I'm not saying we need to go full draconian on some of this stuff, more just acknowledging that some of the more punishing things, like trains, were all part of a rather complex recipe that made games like EverQuest the fun, and social, marvel that it was.
Everyone take a shot for that tangent. Sometimes I like to write a little too much. ;p
Well stated Kratuk. Quoted for emphasis. This is a good explanation of the positive aspect of unleashed mobs and trains that some people seem to be missing.