/shout Train to zone!
I don't see why my group and I should just lay down and die. Options are dying and taking 5-30+ minutes doing a corpse run and losing experience or possibly taking 2 minutes to run to zone and get back to things. Sure someone else could die to the train but thats entirely on them if warning is given and the train is taken down the central path to zone; never AFK or set up camp in a main pathway. No one has to die to a train.
vjek said:Correct. And yet.. FD is going to be in the game, malicious training will be in the game, and this scenario will happen, non-stop. :) Welcome to the "fun".
It'll happen from some random jerk for sure, but I think that might be overstating it a bit. I played EQ for years and I can count on one hand the number of times I saw or heard about someone doing this intentionally. There will always be that random exception to the rule and they'll get dealt with accordingly.
Iksar said:/shout Train to zone!
I don't see why my group and I should just lay down and die. Options are dying and taking 5-30+ minutes doing a corpse run and losing experience or possibly taking 2 minutes to run to zone and get back to things. Sure someone else could die to the train but thats entirely on them if warning is given and the train is taken down the central path to zone; never AFK or set up camp in a main pathway. No one has to die to a train.
There are times that it's unavoidable to not train a group. It happens. But if you tried to avoid it that's all you can do. I have, as a tank, in some cases, pulled aggro if I saw there might be a group in the way and tried to kite until my group can zone and then just eaten the death and waited for a rez. There's a number of different options. Some might suck for the moment but in that case we made a few new friends that appreciated not getting bowled over. So, worth it. :)
Of course, in a similar situation at one point later in time we repeated a similar scenario only to have the group steal our camp instead. ;p Depends on the peeps.
Would also help if proximity aggro was turned off once a mob is pulled, so during the train they wouldn't go onto another player/group's aggro list unless that group was actively engaged in combat with a socially linked mob at the time. So if a group was standing still in a hallway doing nothing the mobs would forget about them once their target(s) zone or die, but if the group was still there when the mobs path back they would be attacked.
Iksar said:Would also help if proximity aggro was turned off once a mob is pulled, so during the train they wouldn't go onto another player/group's aggro list unless that group was actively engaged in combat with a socially linked mob at the time. So if a group was standing still in a hallway doing nothing the mobs would forget about them once their target(s) zone or die, but if the group was still there when the mobs path back they would be attacked.
This is pretty normal. Would definitely help protect against griefing.
Naunet said:Iksar said:Would also help if proximity aggro was turned off once a mob is pulled, so during the train they wouldn't go onto another player/group's aggro list unless that group was actively engaged in combat with a socially linked mob at the time. So if a group was standing still in a hallway doing nothing the mobs would forget about them once their target(s) zone or die, but if the group was still there when the mobs path back they would be attacked.
This is pretty normal. Would definitely help protect against griefing.
Yes, that would eliminate the problem.
It would also cancel my subscription. I'm here for the promise of a LIVE world with all its dangers, not a dead world.
Trains are not a "problem" that the Devs need to "fix" they are a spontaneous challange, an exiting opportunity for the group to persevere or escape.The mobs themselves dangerous, running back to there various spawn points give us unpredictability. Again spontaneous and exciting. I already have boring tame world's to play in...strangely I dont.
A living world!
Naunet said:Personally I find that a strange thing to cancel one's subscription over, but to each their own. I tend to prefer at least some safeguards against griefing and find players being rude to other players not a positive aspect of a "living world".
In that I agree with you. But this thread is not about Griefing or being rude to other players.
Kilsin said:Scenario: You accidentally aggro a room full of mobs in an outdoor area, your first reaction is to run but there is a small group of players waiting patiently for a member to catch up to them in the pathway of the only exit - What do you do? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I belive the price that would be paid to suppress the "problem" as suggested would be just too high.
Naunet said:Iksar said:Would also help if proximity aggro was turned off once a mob is pulled, so during the train they wouldn't go onto another player/group's aggro list unless that group was actively engaged in combat with a socially linked mob at the time. So if a group was standing still in a hallway doing nothing the mobs would forget about them once their target(s) zone or die, but if the group was still there when the mobs path back they would be attacked.
This is pretty normal. Would definitely help protect against griefing.
They had this and it was awful. This made everyone play a solo game and the world had no interaction between players. Evedryone played their own solo game next to each other. It was the ruin of MMO's
A /shout Train to zone! is the only thing I would expect and do myself. You don't need to baby proof the game or we will be at the point where everyone gets their own instance of the zone to remove any unexpected danger. Im pretty sure they arent going for that type of world.
Check and see if they pray to the same god I do, and if not, wish them well on their journey to the underworld with a hint of sarcasm.
fazool said:They had this and it was awful. This made everyone play a solo game and the world had no interaction between players. Evedryone played their own solo game next to each other. It was the ruin of MMO's
How does removing a mobs ability to aggro on another group once its pulled create a solo game... I think you're focusing more so on the games themselves that had this... and not necessarily how the mechanic plays out.
Zorkon said:Yes, that would eliminate the problem.
It would also cancel my subscription. I'm here for the promise of a LIVE world with all its dangers, not a dead world.
Trains are not a "problem" that the Devs need to "fix" they are a spontaneous challange, an exiting opportunity for the group to persevere or escape.The mobs themselves dangerous, running back to there various spawn points give us unpredictability. Again spontaneous and exciting. I already have boring tame world's to play in...strangely I dont.
A living world!
This is one of the most confusing posts I've ever read. Trains ARE a problem... that's why players dont like when they are intentionally trained. Some other group that isnt good enough to fight in an area constantly training another doesn't create a living world. It just serves to annoy the group that is actually trying to exp.
Like.... saying that random mobs being trained on you is exciting would be the same as saying "I would randomly like mobs to spawn on me at random times without warning".
Nobody WANTS that.
Porygon said:This is one of the most confusing posts I've ever read. Trains ARE a problem... that's why players dont like when they are intentionally trained. Some other group that isnt good enough to fight in an area constantly training another doesn't create a living world. It just serves to annoy the group that is actually trying to exp.
Like.... saying that random mobs being trained on you is exciting would be the same as saying "I would randomly like mobs to spawn on me at random times without warning".
Nobody WANTS that.
I think what he probably means is that trains add an unpredictable and somewhat chaotic chance of something going unexpectedly wrong. This can end in a bit of an adrenaline pumping encounter or you could get rekt. Intentionally trainings are a bit of a jerk move but when taken as it is, accidental mishaps, they do keep things interesting.
I don't think anyone is saying "train me please, I want to die", but they are acknowledging that those mishaps can make for a potentially fun moment and possible social event. I can recall quite a few stories where a train happened and there were 3 or more groups joined together fighting back the chaos. That was loads of fun and a good way to meet new folks. Likewise, it sometimes went horribly bad and we all died screaming in the dark. ;p
But like all things you'll certainly have an assclown or two that will pop up once in a great blue moon to be an ass. I'm pretty sure VR won't tolerate intentional training, but the unintentional is where some folks are looking at the potential for a little fun chaos.
I played both EverQuest and EverQuest II and if I recall correctly, EQII had plenty of flaws at launch. One of which was you couldn't do split pulls as the mobs were group linked. They were also on a leash and, unless memory fails me, when leashed would ignore any and all things on their way back to their spawn location. That was terrible watching 20 mobs tra lala their way right over top of me back to their spawn.
That's the funny thing about some of this old school mechanics, some people choose to look at it more from the "it can hinder my progression" view rather than what it can do for social interaction. Trains, death penalties, corpse runs, and even experience loss while at a glance seem to be mechanics just for harsh and punishment, all also have deep connections to encouraging social gameplay. Trains while being a pain can end up making groups you might not otherwise give a look at work together when all hell breaks loose. And when the dust settles if you've got good peeps around you rezzes will get tossed for the fallen and you'll have met some new people. Death penalties encouraged everyone to play smart and help others do the same while looping into that rez part if you go down and there isn't a rezzer in the group. Or maybe you gun for a higher rez %. Regardless, you're talking to clerics, paladins, ect you might not have known before. Corpse runs in EQ would get you making friends with a good necromancer or someone really skilled at sneaking down to drag that corpse back up.
Now I'm not saying we need to go full draconian on some of this stuff, more just acknowledging that some of the more punishing things, like trains, were all part of a rather complex recipe that made games like EverQuest the fun, and social, marvel that it was.
Everyone take a shot for that tangent. Sometimes I like to write a little too much. ;p
Scenario: You accidentally aggro a room full of mobs in an outdoor area, your first reaction is to run but there is a small group of players waiting patiently for a member to catch up to them in the pathway of the only exit - What do you do? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Low / mid level I'd warn with a global message before crossing them, and zone as fast as possible in the hope the train would stop before reaching them due to my zoning. There are little chances they die if they are warned early enough, if I can make it they should be safe too.
High level, if they have a rezzer of some sort (full party), I can afford to die on spot and /tell their healer begging for a rez.
I remember trains were fairly common in some dungeons, and player learnt how not to be on the bad path. Either beeing on the edge of the courtyard in Unrest, or allways sticking to one entrance in Karnor's castle, trains weren't that deadly once everyone passed the word of the best attitude to follow.
I would definitely shout "TRAIN to xyz zoneline".
Not sure if i would commit suicide to save those guys. There are different points to consider:
- Am I max lvl?
- Where am I bound/how difficult is it to get to my corpse?
- Am I member of a guild/Do I know somebody who could rez me?
- Do I have time for a corpserun or am I about to log?
In general I want to save those guys from dying because of me, but in the situation I might become victim of my selfishness ...
vjek said:Kilsin said:Scenario: You accidentally aggro a room full of mobs in an outdoor area, your first reaction is to run but there is a small group of players waiting patiently for a member to catch up to them in the pathway of the only exit - What do you do?
In Pantheon, with the current public design goals?
Three choices:
1) Die on the spot so you don't train the group. (Mmmm fun! Hours of grinding back that XP.)
2) Run in the opposite direction of the group and die where you can't get to your body (presumably, can you outrun mobs today? yes? no?)
3) Train the group and not die yourself. (possibly killing all of them)
Selfless is punished. Honorable is punished. Selfish is rewarded. You have created the mechanics that lead to these toxic choices. /shrug
I really agree with this sentiment. If the 'make the game tedious and we will say it is hard' crowd wins out. I will play the way the game is to be played.
I hear people wanted to monetizing rezzes. I will not pay for rezzes unles I have a group waiting on me. If the game is designed on painful XP loss on death I will prioritize not dying. If the game takes forever to get anywhere, then I will avoid losing ground.
If this is the game, I zone. I do not have a train macro, sorry about that. If part of the game is having to be aware because the world is dangerous, then I expect that group to be aware, because the world is dangerous.
I never played EQ, but it seems the EQ people wanting that, which is fine. I did play vanguard, and in vanguard I would train, see a group and turn to run directly back into the train, to pull the mobs away.
Bloodfire said:Kilsin said:Scenario: You accidentally aggro a room full of mobs in an outdoor area, your first reaction is to run but there is a small group of players waiting patiently for a member to catch up to them in the pathway of the only exit - What do you do? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Well assuming we are not talking about a zone line and it is just a path/exit I would run straight past the players with the mob in tow. I would hit a 'Train' macro of course, but the mob shouldn't touch them as long as they don't agro it. I have to assume this mob has a range, or will it follow me forever?
If there is a zone line, I hope there are few of them, but if it is a zone line, again a quick macro and zone.
Don't hang around on zone lines. It doesnt take long to learn that skill.
As a rogue I don't think I'd even blow a smoke bomb on it. People shouldnt be hanging around zone lines expecting them to be safe.
Blood.
I'm going to take the unusual step of quoting myself here, because I think I've changed my mind. In 1999 EQ trains to zone became the norm, largly due to the amount of zones. It was generally accepted if you hang around at zones you are fair game. A quick macro'd 'train to zone' is all people needed to ease their conscience.
These days though I'm older, fatter and a little bit more consderate and certainly there should be less zones. So I think I'd probably take a hit and die before I train'd them. That said, I'd make sure to do it close enough for the group to see me die heroically. I might get some free stuff:p
Blood
Zorkon said:Yes, that would eliminate the problem.
It would also cancel my subscription. I'm here for the promise of a LIVE world with all its dangers, not a dead world.
Trains are not a "problem" that the Devs need to "fix" they are a spontaneous challange, an exiting opportunity for the group to persevere or escape.The mobs themselves dangerous, running back to there various spawn points give us unpredictability. Again spontaneous and exciting. I already have boring tame world's to play in...strangely I dont.
A living world!
I fear these incident will often be far from spontaneous. In a perfect world, where everybody would try their best not to get other people into trouble, I would agree with you 100%, Zorkon. But these days, grieving is so deliberate and organized that game designers have to take it seriously.
When the internet was young there was little need for firewalls and virus checkers; now your computer would be infected within seconds after you turned them off. Likewise, when MMOs were a novelty, a few bored kids stirring things up occassionally, didn't pose a threat to the community. Today that threat is much more real and aims at stopping people from playing, altogether.
Fortunately, the train mechanics is something that can be changed later, I suppose, should my fears prove justified.
Shyin said:I pulled the basement in Unrest last night on P99 retrieving my corpse.
I felt horrible that I couldn't get to my hotkey in time to announce the train.
It’s common courtesy to other players to give them fair warning of what's coming.
/OOC is your friend, use it!
Dude! Were you that bard? There were so many Hag and tentacle terrors trains the other night. I usually watch /Shout for train messages and /OOC for LFG msgs so I never saw your /OOC since we were in a full group.
If I'm in a situation like that there are a few things I try to do:
1. If escape is not an option: position myself in an area that I can retrieve my corpse
2. Notify zone with "/shout TRAIN %t" and try to escape without passing over areas of known camps
a. Using %t alerts possible higher levels in the area that may be able to intercept or otherwise lower levels to GTFO of the way.
b. If I'm capable of participating in the derailment of the train I will help.
3. If my train does get people killed (or disrupt a good camp) I'll also go out of my way to help in their CR however my class allows and if they are lower level I will stick around to help them XP afterward (or with buffs) time permiting.
Not letting innocent bystanders die to a train makes it a solo game? I think we have a little bit of exaggeration here. Well maybe not a *little* bit.
No training and I cancel my subscription? OK none of us should pay for a game we don't enjoy. But there are dozens and dozens of important design decisions and would any of us *really* leave the game if they got 29 just the way we wanted and one wrong? If we all felt that way Pantheon would launch with perhaps three players - what are the odds any of us will see the decision we want on every single significant issue?
If the zones are designed with training in mind, then most good camps will be off the main path and there will also likely be hidey holes along the way for groups to run to. Players who are on the main path are likely not engaged in anything pressing, and can likely run. If they can't even move a little bit to the side when someone yells train, they have accepted the risk of being preoccupied on a main path. When you train, where possible try to go to the side of people and that alone can help a lot.
You can be a martyr, but there will rarely be a good reason for it.
Kilsin said:Scenario: You accidentally aggro a room full of mobs in an outdoor area, your first reaction is to run but there is a small group of players waiting patiently for a member to catch up to them in the pathway of the only exit - What do you do? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Stand there and try to kill the mobs but if I can't, I just die right there. I'll then send a tell to the group nearby asking if they have a cleric that can rez, paying for that with some coin and buffs.
I love reading all the varied responses. It reminds me of one thing. We all have opinions and none of our opinions is the right one. Because it boils down to that moment, that reaction, that choice you make the moment it occurs. We're just waxing theories here and its fun.
As for the consensus I think we need to deal with the good and the bad of this game, world, experience and learn from it and move on. Whether you're the jackass pulling on purpose, the innocent bystander, the hero who saves the day. Each one of these has a potential consequence. Be a jerk and potentially become an outcast. Do nothing and potentially piss someone off because you did nothing in the face of danger. Help out and potentially die because of it or make a friend.
Ultimately I'm here to play THIS game and not another one. I definitley do not want to see the change of core functionality ( agro radius of a train ) or stop people from being the person that they are. Good, mean or otherwise. I've heard a few people who sound like that they like the idea of dumbing this game down, making it easy so it doesn't get in the way of what they want. That to me sounds a tad selfish and controlling ( I'm not talking about suggestions )
I suggest we let the designers and devs here create what they feel is right, give them a chance and then.... lets play in their world.
I know for a fact I don't want to play any of the other games out because they're ...all... the... same..crap with a different paint job.
My two plats
