Aradune said:Having a monthly sub fee and then selling expansions/DLCs is how we've been modeling our business plan and it is very profitable without resorting to changing the revenue model. Additionally, changing the revenue model to include RMT and pay2win is not compatible with how we are designing the game with an emphasis on hand crafted content, community, challenge, shared experiences, etc. I've seen first hand what cash shops do to an MMO: the designers end up being rewarded for and focusing on putting interesting items into the shop instead of adding new features, content, etc. They end up looking for ways to make money short term and lose track of retention and a healthy game long term. This in turn makes the game less sticky and also focusses the team on monetizing a small minority of players as opposed to monetizing everyone through a subscription fee.
You can see the snowball effect above, the focus on the few and not the many, the focus on the short term and not making a great long term game, etc. It's really horrible to watch first hand but I was there when this happened at SoE. I saw it, and we will *not* be gong there with Pantheon.
The focus that you and your team is putting on the long-term health of the game is really refreshing to see.
Aradune said:
Having a monthly sub fee and then selling expansions/DLCs is how we've been modeling our business plan and it is very profitable without resorting to changing the revenue model. Additionally, changing the revenue model to include RMT and pay2win is not compatible with how we are designing the game with an emphasis on hand crafted content, community, challenge, shared experiences, etc. I've seen first hand what cash shops do to an MMO: the designers end up being rewarded for and focusing on putting interesting items into the shop instead of adding new features, content, etc. They end up looking for ways to make money short term and lose track of retention and a healthy game long term. This in turn makes the game less sticky and also focusses the team on monetizing a small minority of players as opposed to monetizing everyone through a subscription fee.
You can see the snowball effect above, the focus on the few and not the many, the focus on the short term and not making a great long term game, etc. It's really horrible to watch first hand but I was there when this happened at SoE. I saw it, and we will *not* be gong there with Pantheon.
I've read through this thread and seen all the replies, so I know you've stated you're not going in the Krono direction. I have a massive amount of experience with this, some of my friends earn their RL income selling Krono and items on the EQ progression servers. The problem is when the Krono (Plex) is tradeable off an account. That makes the entire game a business. Every decent item becomes money for rent. The concept could work just fine if the Krono is not tradeable and binds to your account. In the end, you'd still have gold farmers piling up gold to sell to people to purchase Krono, so the initial farming problem still remains, but you've added a profitable gold sink to the economy. This would be the only way it would work, and it wouldn't be pay to win.
If you want to make extra money without being pay to win, charge for bank space. GW2 did that and made a ton. Charge for housing, you'll make a ton. And those that don't care, won't get the house. You could limit crafting to one profession per account, and charge like $5 to unlock additional crafting profession options. Character slots is another easy way to make a little extra. Also, dances and emotes, people love those. Give them some really cool animation options to buy. Another one would be a Lore Book. Charge $5 to unlock and then as the player plays the game, every mob and location goes into the book with some lore and stats. I know I'd pay $5 to look at something like that, but I love lore. An area EQ2 made quite a bit of money was on animated plushies that you put in your home and let run around like pets. These are just some examples of a cash shop that would not be pay to win and would bring extra fun and flavor to the game, plus additional income for you. I'm sure there are quite a few more.
Be strategic with this. Most of us are here to support your company and this type of MMO. It's easy to toss in an extra $5 or so here and there for permanent quality of life upgrades, especially when you know it helps the company and future expansion content.
Mathir said:Aradune said:
Having a monthly sub fee and then selling expansions/DLCs is how we've been modeling our business plan and it is very profitable without resorting to changing the revenue model. Additionally, changing the revenue model to include RMT and pay2win is not compatible with how we are designing the game with an emphasis on hand crafted content, community, challenge, shared experiences, etc. I've seen first hand what cash shops do to an MMO: the designers end up being rewarded for and focusing on putting interesting items into the shop instead of adding new features, content, etc. They end up looking for ways to make money short term and lose track of retention and a healthy game long term. This in turn makes the game less sticky and also focusses the team on monetizing a small minority of players as opposed to monetizing everyone through a subscription fee.
You can see the snowball effect above, the focus on the few and not the many, the focus on the short term and not making a great long term game, etc. It's really horrible to watch first hand but I was there when this happened at SoE. I saw it, and we will *not* be gong there with Pantheon.
I've read through this thread and seen all the replies, so I know you've stated you're not going in the Krono direction. I have a massive amount of experience with this, some of my friends earn their RL income selling Krono and items on the EQ progression servers. The problem is when the Krono (Plex) is tradeable off an account. That makes the entire game a business. Every decent item becomes money for rent. The concept could work just fine if the Krono is not tradeable and binds to your account. In the end, you'd still have gold farmers piling up gold to sell to people to purchase Krono, so the initial farming problem still remains, but you've added a profitable gold sink to the economy. This would be the only way it would work, and it wouldn't be pay to win.
If you want to make extra money without being pay to win, charge for bank space. GW2 did that and made a ton. Charge for housing, you'll make a ton. And those that don't care, won't get the house. You could limit crafting to one profession per account, and charge like $5 to unlock additional crafting profession options. Character slots is another easy way to make a little extra. Also, dances and emotes, people love those. Give them some really cool animation options to buy. Another one would be a Lore Book. Charge $5 to unlock and then as the player plays the game, every mob and location goes into the book with some lore and stats. I know I'd pay $5 to look at something like that, but I love lore. An area EQ2 made quite a bit of money was on animated plushies that you put in your home and let run around like pets. These are just some examples of a cash shop that would not be pay to win and would bring extra fun and flavor to the game, plus additional income for you. I'm sure there are quite a few more.
Be strategic with this. Most of us are here to support your company and this type of MMO. It's easy to toss in an extra $5 or so here and there for permanent quality of life upgrades, especially when you know it helps the company and future expansion content.
Us making money off plex/krono was honestly never part of my thought process. It was simply this: could some plex/krono system, with specific rules for Pantheon, be implemented on an alternate ruleset server, and by making it tradable eliminate or at least significantly kurb gold farmers? And, of cousre, could *our* system avoid making the game feel like it's pay2win. The only thing one would be buying for real money would be the plex/krono item, nothing else.
Some have posted they think it could help, but the overwhelming majority have said no, they just can't see how it would work and avoid doing more good than harm. And, as mentioned, some people really got emotional over me mentioning the idea to the community at all, which honestly disappointed me. As I've stated, I think our community is mature enough and thought there was enough trust between us and them, that I should be able to bring just about anything up and ask for discussion and feedback without causing a panic. The most ironic part has been that some accused me of trying to 'sneak' in a way for VR to make more money at the cost of the game's integrity.... this logic I just don't get because with me taking this to the community for feedback, how could that possibly be interpreted as me being sneaky? It couldn't be more un-sneaky in fact. Anyway, it's off the table now, but if you guys want to keep talking about it, feel free. I don't like hearing the assertion that there is *no* possible way to do something no matter how collectively clever we are -- I've just found that very few things in life or game design is that black and white, that some sort of version or implementation couldn't be imagined and implemented, especially, again, given the talent of our team and the incredible knowledge and passion of our community. *sigh*.
Aradune said:Mathir said:Aradune said:
Having a monthly sub fee and then selling expansions/DLCs is how we've been modeling our business plan and it is very profitable without resorting to changing the revenue model. Additionally, changing the revenue model to include RMT and pay2win is not compatible with how we are designing the game with an emphasis on hand crafted content, community, challenge, shared experiences, etc. I've seen first hand what cash shops do to an MMO: the designers end up being rewarded for and focusing on putting interesting items into the shop instead of adding new features, content, etc. They end up looking for ways to make money short term and lose track of retention and a healthy game long term. This in turn makes the game less sticky and also focusses the team on monetizing a small minority of players as opposed to monetizing everyone through a subscription fee.
You can see the snowball effect above, the focus on the few and not the many, the focus on the short term and not making a great long term game, etc. It's really horrible to watch first hand but I was there when this happened at SoE. I saw it, and we will *not* be gong there with Pantheon.
I've read through this thread and seen all the replies, so I know you've stated you're not going in the Krono direction. I have a massive amount of experience with this, some of my friends earn their RL income selling Krono and items on the EQ progression servers. The problem is when the Krono (Plex) is tradeable off an account. That makes the entire game a business. Every decent item becomes money for rent. The concept could work just fine if the Krono is not tradeable and binds to your account. In the end, you'd still have gold farmers piling up gold to sell to people to purchase Krono, so the initial farming problem still remains, but you've added a profitable gold sink to the economy. This would be the only way it would work, and it wouldn't be pay to win.
If you want to make extra money without being pay to win, charge for bank space. GW2 did that and made a ton. Charge for housing, you'll make a ton. And those that don't care, won't get the house. You could limit crafting to one profession per account, and charge like $5 to unlock additional crafting profession options. Character slots is another easy way to make a little extra. Also, dances and emotes, people love those. Give them some really cool animation options to buy. Another one would be a Lore Book. Charge $5 to unlock and then as the player plays the game, every mob and location goes into the book with some lore and stats. I know I'd pay $5 to look at something like that, but I love lore. An area EQ2 made quite a bit of money was on animated plushies that you put in your home and let run around like pets. These are just some examples of a cash shop that would not be pay to win and would bring extra fun and flavor to the game, plus additional income for you. I'm sure there are quite a few more.
Be strategic with this. Most of us are here to support your company and this type of MMO. It's easy to toss in an extra $5 or so here and there for permanent quality of life upgrades, especially when you know it helps the company and future expansion content.
It was simply this: could some plex/krono system, with specific rules for Pantheon, be implemented on an alternate ruleset server, and by making it tradable eliminate or at least significantly kurb gold farmers?
Honestly the only system I've seen work that really combats gold farmers / botters is PvP where players can constantly kill the gold farmers making it almost impossible for them to farm gold. Hopefully there will be a no rules PvP server in Pantheon like the Sullen Zek server in EverQuest. Bonus points if it has player looting.
Aradune said:Mathir said:Aradune said:
Having a monthly sub fee and then selling expansions/DLCs is how we've been modeling our business plan and it is very profitable without resorting to changing the revenue model. Additionally, changing the revenue model to include RMT and pay2win is not compatible with how we are designing the game with an emphasis on hand crafted content, community, challenge, shared experiences, etc. I've seen first hand what cash shops do to an MMO: the designers end up being rewarded for and focusing on putting interesting items into the shop instead of adding new features, content, etc. They end up looking for ways to make money short term and lose track of retention and a healthy game long term. This in turn makes the game less sticky and also focusses the team on monetizing a small minority of players as opposed to monetizing everyone through a subscription fee.
You can see the snowball effect above, the focus on the few and not the many, the focus on the short term and not making a great long term game, etc. It's really horrible to watch first hand but I was there when this happened at SoE. I saw it, and we will *not* be gong there with Pantheon.
I've read through this thread and seen all the replies, so I know you've stated you're not going in the Krono direction. I have a massive amount of experience with this, some of my friends earn their RL income selling Krono and items on the EQ progression servers. The problem is when the Krono (Plex) is tradeable off an account. That makes the entire game a business. Every decent item becomes money for rent. The concept could work just fine if the Krono is not tradeable and binds to your account. In the end, you'd still have gold farmers piling up gold to sell to people to purchase Krono, so the initial farming problem still remains, but you've added a profitable gold sink to the economy. This would be the only way it would work, and it wouldn't be pay to win.
If you want to make extra money without being pay to win, charge for bank space. GW2 did that and made a ton. Charge for housing, you'll make a ton. And those that don't care, won't get the house. You could limit crafting to one profession per account, and charge like $5 to unlock additional crafting profession options. Character slots is another easy way to make a little extra. Also, dances and emotes, people love those. Give them some really cool animation options to buy. Another one would be a Lore Book. Charge $5 to unlock and then as the player plays the game, every mob and location goes into the book with some lore and stats. I know I'd pay $5 to look at something like that, but I love lore. An area EQ2 made quite a bit of money was on animated plushies that you put in your home and let run around like pets. These are just some examples of a cash shop that would not be pay to win and would bring extra fun and flavor to the game, plus additional income for you. I'm sure there are quite a few more.
Be strategic with this. Most of us are here to support your company and this type of MMO. It's easy to toss in an extra $5 or so here and there for permanent quality of life upgrades, especially when you know it helps the company and future expansion content.
Us making money off plex/krono was honestly never part of my thought process. It was simply this: could some plex/krono system, with specific rules for Pantheon, be implemented on an alternate ruleset server, and by making it tradable eliminate or at least significantly kurb gold farmers? And, of cousre, could *our* system avoid making the game feel like it's pay2win. The only thing one would be buying for real money would be the plex/krono item, nothing else.
Some have posted they think it could help, but the overwhelming majority have said no, they just can't see how it would work and avoid doing more good than harm. And, as mentioned, some people really got emotional over me mentioning the idea to the community at all, which honestly disappointed me. As I've stated, I think our community is mature enough and thought there was enough trust between us and them, that I should be able to bring just about anything up and ask for discussion and feedback without causing a panic. The most ironic part has been that some accused me of trying to 'sneak' in a way for VR to make more money at the cost of the game's integrity.... this logic I just don't get because with me taking this to the community for feedback, how could that possibly be interpreted as me being sneaky? It couldn't be more un-sneaky in fact. Anyway, it's off the table now, but if you guys want to keep talking about it, feel free. I don't like hearing the assertion that there is *no* possible way to do something no matter how collectively clever we are -- I've just found that very few things in life or game design is that black and white, that some sort of version or implementation couldn't be imagined and implemented, especially, again, given the talent of our team and the incredible knowledge and passion of our community. *sigh*.
Brad,
We have faith in the team and their abilities. We are very excited about the game, and about your role in designing it. And, in a way, you're right: you should be able to bring up anything and have a mature, open discussion with the community. But, in a way, you have to expect by bringing up P2W, there is going to be a visceral response from this community. The members here have seen too many games say "We will never have P2W" and then it ends up happening anyways. It was soul-crushing at the end of Vanguard to see the monthly loot boxes that had to be unlocked with real money keys to get BIS items. I know they were trying to save the game, but man, that sucked. What is refreshing about VR is the Tenets put forward at the outset, and the understanding that there is a business model that should work based on subs and a world where *everything* you see has been earned in-game.
Aradune said:Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:
An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?
Sometimes called PLEX. Here's how WoW originally described it:
"We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."
I'm no developer and have no idea of the financial needs of Pantheon, but in principle I am opposed to any way players can play for free. This comes down to two things: fairness and overall game health.
I realize that $15/month or whatever the sub will be may be a lot to many people, but in all honesty it shouldn't be up to a game developer to fix this. MMOs are the quintessential "gaming as a service". They have ongoing development and maintenance costs if the game is to continue to appeal to current players, and even attract new ones. When you introduce ways to play for free, some players will be subsidizing others, which I don't think is really fair. In fact, if I understand correctly how this would work - purchase PLEX for cash, sell in-game for items or gold - it seems pretty close to an official real-money-trading scheme.
Additionally, at least in EVE Online, not only do players who purchase PLEX subsidize free players, CCP makes a profit off it. I just checked and the best price for 500 PLEX (one month of Omega status) comes down to around €17 if you buy the largest pack - and for that you need to put in €100 at a time. The cost goes up for smaller packs: if you buy the smallest ones, the cost of 500 PLEX goes north of €20. Compare that to a monthly sub of €11 for the 12-month plan.
As for my second objection, I suspect if players have the ability to trade in-game items for PLEX this will incentivize extreme grinding behaviour. In EVE Online, PLEX goes for over 3 million ISK per unit, and you need 500 PLEX for one month of Omega status (basically subscriber status). Imagine hundreds of people farming 1.5B ISK every month and it makes for a very sad grind fest.
I truly hope Pantheon will be able to function with a pure subscription model. This is fair and transparent. Obviously we can't control the number of subscribed players at all times, but I will honestly quit playing rather than support a revenue model I don't agree with and the in-game consequences that come with it. I have done this before. So here's hoping Pantheon will have a large, active and loyal player base!
I think it is a great idea to bring up topics like this for open discussion, even if it's for no more reason than intellectual curiosity. Just remember that only a few overreacted in responses and for the most part this discussion has remained civil. Keep up the great work and keep up the open communication.
Personally, I would be willing to pay $20.00 a month instead of the usual $15.00 a month subscription fee to ensure a cash to ingame currency exchange never see the light of day.
Any item purchased with cash should be NO-TRADE. Cosmetics being available for cash would be ideal. Mounts should not be a problem as long as mounts are obtainable through regular gameplay and mount speed is consistent between earned and purchased models. Purchased mounts in this instance would then simply be considered appearance options.
dvious1 said:Personally, I would be willing to pay $20.00 a month instead of the usual $15.00 a month subscription fee to ensure a cash to ingame currency exchange never see the light of day.
Any item purchased with cash should be NO-TRADE. Cosmetics being available for cash would be ideal. Mounts should not be a problem as long as mounts are obtainable through regular gameplay and mount speed is consistent between earned and purchased models. Purchased mounts in this instance would then simply be considered appearance options.
If and when VR needs more revenue than generated by subs, I still would prefer other alternatives instead of cosmetics. These start a whole noxious dynamic of developing new shiny pixels on a regular basis and divert resources from other areas of development.I would more easily go for paid character name changes, or paid additional character slots (provided a reasonable amount of slots to begin with), or paid server transfers. But I like to believe that subs will be enough for a good many years :)
Aradune said:Us making money off plex/krono was honestly never part of my thought process. It was simply this: could some plex/krono system, with specific rules for Pantheon, be implemented on an alternate ruleset server, and by making it tradable eliminate or at least significantly kurb gold farmers? And, of cousre, could *our* system avoid making the game feel like it's pay2win. The only thing one would be buying for real money would be the plex/krono item, nothing else.
Some have posted they think it could help, but the overwhelming majority have said no, they just can't see how it would work and avoid doing more good than harm. And, as mentioned, some people really got emotional over me mentioning the idea to the community at all, which honestly disappointed me. As I've stated, I think our community is mature enough and thought there was enough trust between us and them, that I should be able to bring just about anything up and ask for discussion and feedback without causing a panic. The most ironic part has been that some accused me of trying to 'sneak' in a way for VR to make more money at the cost of the game's integrity.... this logic I just don't get because with me taking this to the community for feedback, how could that possibly be interpreted as me being sneaky? It couldn't be more un-sneaky in fact. Anyway, it's off the table now, but if you guys want to keep talking about it, feel free. I don't like hearing the assertion that there is *no* possible way to do something no matter how collectively clever we are -- I've just found that very few things in life or game design is that black and white, that some sort of version or implementation couldn't be imagined and implemented, especially, again, given the talent of our team and the incredible knowledge and passion of our community. *sigh*.
I personally saw it as a theory crafting problem to be solved. Offered my opinion on how it could be solved but also do not agree with it existing.
I suppose I will sound old, that guy that likes to walk up hill both ways in the snow etc, but I really do miss those days when we could disagree, debate and still have respect for each other. These days, not so much, it seems these things quickly go to personal attacks as a way to justify that the other person is wrong instead of having open minds and mutual respect.
I know it has affected how often and what I share in a public space, not only on these forums but in RL as well. I just don't want/have time to deal with the flaming and personal attacks to put ideas out there. So I end up shrinking my inner circle to those I can actually converse with on an adult level. Unfortunatly, that circle has gotten pretty small these days. But I still try here and there to expand it.
For the most part however, this forum has been much better about this, but the world we live in still leaks in of course.
IMO anything IS possible, its just a matter of whether or not its a good idea or practical.
That said, I do want to see a world, not so much a game, that does its best to be its own environment and keep anything that would disrupt that world out. RMT is one of those huge disruptors and I would hope that we never see it come to PROTF.
I would pay more each month if it meant keeping the world true to its vision.
Please keep engaging us, I do enjoy these thought provoking ideas and hope that we can have healthy debates in the future.
-Az
Just to compound the already stated. Offering PLEX/Krono/Etc does not stop RMT. Purchasing ISK in EvE online from third party sellers is still significantly cheaper than buying PLEX from CCP. All of this 'illegal' ISK is laundered directly through the PLEX system itself making it even more difficult to track.
If you need an example of an acceptable marketplace income stream, please look to FFXIV's implementation. Costumes, Respec/Gender potions, cosmetic mounts, player housing items. These are OK as long as they don't share the same art asset as raided/high-end crafted items.
I am only for monthly subs and DLC (that is core gameplay). I am completely against in-game store, Krono, Plex, asthetic only, etc. Stick to the core gameplay, mechanics and content and don't waste time, validation, manpower on that other crap. It not only blurs the line to PTW, but it will muddy the games image and bog down the development team.
As long as there are rules for people not to stock up on it and pay 2 win.
I think its a great idea but it still has to be "fixed" so it works well with the game and community.
A big rule could be that 1 account can buy only one PLEX at a time for the duration of the PLEX (a month subscription). Either to use it or to sell. If someone subscribes, they can use it to make a bit of extra cash, but nothing game breaking. That way if other people wanted to make the same amount of money, they could. And it wouldn't be this big competition of who has the most money IRL to throw away. And also, it wouldn't be pay 2 win.
To the rule above, the free accounts cannot buy. They are there to test. and possibly become another subscription. Not to be used to sell multiple plex on multiple different accounts to make a crap ton of plat appear out of thin air.
Another rule is you can't resell them. WoW already has this in place I believe. But people like to mess with the market a lot. Buy low, sell high. Leave the market alone based on how many people in the community on a server can afford this.
And maybe make it giftable? You can either sell it on the market (the way WoW has it) or make it giftable. Because I know some guilds are going to want to be that helpful towards their members or maybe add it as a DKP reward for those who might not be able to afford the subscription ALL the time. This makes it accessable to others to a certain extent.
Aradune said:Let me ask a follow-up question then:
Were we to do this on an alternate ruleset server, not allow any transfers of anything to other servers (as mentioned above), if your job was to design it, how would you do it?
The goal would be to stop gold farming.
The *only* item purchasable for real money would be PLEX item.
This sort of goes back to idea vs implementation -- can such a system be designed to minimize the negatives you've brought up and maximize the positives? Could it be designed to do more good than harm?
I have arrived very late to this thread and really have only read to this post so feel free to skip it in the current discussion.
RMT + Open World + Everything is tradeable = Total server domination by Elite Pro Farmers.
If all of the valued items in the game are tradeable but there is a limited amount available on the server due to everything being open world, then a select number of accounts with people operating in 8 hour shifts could corner the high value market and earn profit. By cornering the market they can set the price of the high value market and amass huge amounts of game time reserves that they could in turn use to trade for liquid currency of all types to dominate that market as well. The game time could be used to keep the empire running as well as then illegally be sold for less than the monthly cost to other players. Additionally by controlling the high value market they could also still illegally sell items for cash based on a function of play time cost of the items they are selling in game.
Several things can be done to break this pattern. First accounts should have a limited number of devices registered to access it in a given time period. I would suggest having 2 mac addresses attach to a single account and only one account per mac address active at the same time. This will block both multi boxing and team leveling/farming both of which hurt the server population and will not affect the vast majority of players. When a catastrophic hardware failure occurs a process can be followed to change the registered mac address. This could have a negative impact on financially vulnerable families that plan on sharing an account from multiple locations, as VR you could possibly be able to set an internal exception list for these groups, their account activity will likely not match the farmer profile at all.
Spoke in the wheels two. Must be present to equip. The 2 highest tiers of items should include some form of check that requires account involvement to be able to equip the equipment. No drop items like seals or a limited pool of blood appears on the ground after the battle that items must be dipped in to activate their powers would significantly reduce the economic impact of the highest tier items. It would be very difficult to stock pile and manually inflate pricing, i.e. real world diamonds, if the items needed to be distributed at the time of boss kill. While guilds can still have Tag-alongs that have paid in some way to loot items the scope is much more limited. The key to dominating the server economy requires control of both the supply and the pricing.
Spoke three, bank limits. This may sound dumb but setting a ceiling on how much cash can be in a bank will also stop the crazy hording of cash and resources. Money is power and if you have the ability to buy everyone one of a specific item on the market for an entire month then you can conceivably set the new price. Few people will willing resell the item for much lower than you sold it to them and others will see what you are getting for yours and also choose not to undercut you much. To do this though you need absolutely huge stockpiles of capital. At some point the capital should become vulnerable or hard to access in order to prevent economic abuse. I’m personally on the fence about this one as I occasionally choose to be a super trader and end up with 100x the money of most other players but I do so by using some of the above tactics.
Trasak
P.S. Looking at my suggestions again they are more directed at breaking the profitability of farming and may have been what you were after with the Game time item in the first place.
Brad,
Please don't feel discouraged with sharing your thoughts. Only a very small vocal minority is "offended" by your sharing thoughts. I love a good debate and I believe we're all here for the best interest of the game. Don't confuse passion with negativity (though, some people are bad with wording).
Brad and VR team,
I really appreciate you bringing items like this to your supporters for open discussion before adoption. I hope you continue to trust in the maturity of this community when it comes to other ideas. I have never seen so much transparency with a development team and am loving it.
We believe in your moral compass when it comes to design decisions so don't let the vocal minority get you jaded.
Aradune said:Having a monthly sub fee and then selling expansions/DLCs is how we've been modeling our business plan and it is very profitable without resorting to changing the revenue model. Additionally, changing the revenue model to include RMT and pay2win is not compatible with how we are designing the game with an emphasis on hand crafted content, community, challenge, shared experiences, etc. I've seen first hand what cash shops do to an MMO: the designers end up being rewarded for and focusing on putting interesting items into the shop instead of adding new features, content, etc. They end up looking for ways to make money short term and lose track of retention and a healthy game long term. This in turn makes the game less sticky and also focusses the team on monetizing a small minority of players as opposed to monetizing everyone through a subscription fee.
You can see the snowball effect above, the focus on the few and not the many, the focus on the short term and not making a great long term game, etc. It's really horrible to watch first hand but I was there when this happened at SoE. I saw it, and we will *not* be gong there with Pantheon.
Very true. F2P or P2P means developers are spending their time finding ways to monetize the game rather than make the game itself better. With Sub and expansion pass systems you know if a player is in game it's flat rate and can easily budget and plan content, then focus on delievering the best you can for that investment.
@Aradune: Well spoken, i can understand your points. But at the comments from many users, the industry can see, what they started with the RMT etc.
Here in Germany and also the EU, the gouverments woke up and started to prevent such things. See what shitstorm EA earned with the Battelfront 2 release. So, from start you are on a good way, and i like your comment to see a long term fun goal with Pantheon and not a short time cash machine. Yes, if you sell stuff in shop, i can understand you need to be creative for makeing those stuff instead of developing content and other things long term you mentioned.
Aradune said:Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:
An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?
Sometimes called PLEX. Here's how WoW originally described it:
"We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."
I would personally be against it. All it does is encourage XXX farmers to come in and trash the place.
Aradune said:Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:
An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?
Sometimes called PLEX. Here's how WoW originally described it:
"We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."
Kronos...that becomes an rmt game. One kronos cost $17.99 real money. The trade has been almost completely taken over by kronos on the Agnarr Progression server, they weren't interested in your saved up plat. They want real money for ingame pixels. Nope don't like it sorry Aradune.
At the risk of repeating myself - having read the posts since the last time I looked at this thread (not all that long a time) I remain impressed by the willingness of VR to share opinions as to where they may be going and solicit input. I remain impressed by the range of good opinions given by forum members (even those I totally disagree with usually are presented with some level of rational support and a minimum of ad hominum attacks on other posters).
Bonechip said:Aradune said:Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:
An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?
Sometimes called PLEX. Here's how WoW originally described it:
"We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."
I would personally be against it. All it does is encourage XXX farmers to come in and trash the place.
Exactly....that system would entirely take over the player economy..as it already has in EQ.
@Aradune, rest in this topic.
I have thought of a solution, and greatly see what others are saying about progression advances etc on a special ruleset server. It does make it interesting how to make RL money, or invest in game plat farming.
I just wanted you guys to think of this type of system to make it even better.
Solution #1
#1 (Plex) Purchased (CC, Debit, prepaid cards, and please Paypal) which ever system in place.
#2 (Plex) transfered to that character's account (No limits) - as i might buy like 10 for family and friend to play etc...
#3 (Plex) purchased is now attached to an online account and not in game. You have the ability to apply it to the other accounts by simply knowing the account username to be associated to?
So the plex would be purchased, then the website system would show you have 10 plex items on your account. (box to be able to trade to another account)
No warranties at all.
The account name of the persons account you wish to trade to. This could stop anyone from giving freely time cards to others for open in game cash. Its danagerous, and you have no way to reclaim the plex back No passwords ever used in the transactions, just account login Name.
The time right away starts for that other account name, to avoid any transfers illegally. (so when i make the trade to my other account, or friends etc... it is done on purpose) 14..99 vs 17.99
I am just saying there is other ways to avoid server progression, and a business model.
Something to make it easy instead of blocking me to make 1 by 1 purchases with a CC.
I like to make 1 purchase, and 1 only.