Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

No random loot boxes please!

    • 1 posts
    December 7, 2017 8:27 AM PST

    Hello everyone,

    I just want to say how excited I am with Pantheo: Rise of the Fallen

    My first ever MMO was Everquest Online Adventures and ever since it been the game I longed for.

    Of course there were WoW and unlimited other p2w games- never even coming close to what EQOA experience was.

    On the current topic. I have no idea what the cost of running an MMORPG like this will be but $15 a month is cutting it pretty close to impossible. Unless we get  millions of WoW players)

    Let's be honest you guys. In my hearts of hearts I believe it can't be exactly the same game model it was so many years ago. And who is to say it was the best model?

    I hear you all being mostly negative to some of the new stuff in moden games but we should try to come with new ideas not just comment on old ones.

    My thoughts on cosmetic shop: please implement it. I am a woman. I want to have a variety of costumes I can change into every day. They need not be something as epic flaming weapon, but I old want to have as many

    as possible. As long as they are appropriate to the theme of the game.

    My thoughtson on dyes: Gives us in game dyes for different types of clothings. We do need to be different.

    My thoughts on house items: Don't care at all for them. I will probably not spend any money to make my house different.

    My thoughts on something that I am not aware have been done so far: Put some events, npcs, buffs that can be triggered after players have spent some money for them. Put the names of the players who have triggered the events after spending money

    in the rewards packages and make them available for everyone.

    • 3237 posts
    December 7, 2017 8:58 AM PST

    Epopova,

    EQOA is where the magic started for me as well.  I share in many of your sentiments.  The only area I feel differently about is the idea of purchasing cosmetic gear from a cosmetic vendor.  The reason I don't think it would work in a game like Pantheon is because our "appearance" should be a meaningful representation of our in-game accomplishments.  There are still some ideas floating around on how a cosmetic vendor could be leveraged without crossing that line.

    Additionally, I think it would be great to have some roleplaying cosmetic gear.  I think it's very important that these kind of things be offered by crafters, though, or be something you can "collect" in game whether it's through questing, faction, or something else.  I personally do not like the idea of being able to pay cash for appearance upgrades/flavors because it would truly take away from our accomplishments and/or ability to "earn a more unique look."  If you could reflect back on EQOA, imagine if players could just buy red dye with their credit card and make their plate armor appear to be rubicite.  Likewise, imagine if people could purchase the ceremonial vestment robe.  I think when you see things like that in-game, it should feel special.  That was a part of the magic, for me.

    If tailors could make a tuxedo/wedding dress, I think that would be wonderful.  If leatherworkers could create a better looking saddle, that would be great too.  I think it's important that these kind of things be implemented in a way that fosters player to player interaction.  It would be great for the community/economy and could really add value to crafters being able to offer a desirable service/product.  Anyway, I appreciate you chiming in with some feedback.  I wholeheartedly agree that we need to try and come up with some "new ideas" rather than dwell on what didn't work in other games.  I will be sending you a PM with one such idea to think about.

    Thank you!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 7, 2017 9:09 AM PST
    • 281 posts
    December 7, 2017 9:17 AM PST

    As to cosmetic, I like the idea of having "cosmetic" slots that one can put ones armor that is no longer valid in terms of stats but fits the look that one wants.  These slots are no different from normal slots other than they override visuals, perhaps with a checkbox to turn each on and off.  They don't take "cosmetic items" they take items you have earned and want to keep the look of.

    As for the rest of the topic, I think oneADSeven is pretty much on the same page as me on this topic.  I don't like the idea of Kronos/plex/etc., but I see the problem that it "solves" and am not opposed to trying new methods of solving those issues.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at December 7, 2017 9:19 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    December 7, 2017 9:19 AM PST

    I agree DragonFist, and believe that something like that is a part of the plan for Pantheon.  EQ2 had "appearance gear" slots and they worked wonderfully.  The key to making these slots work is ensuring that all gear that can be placed there must be earned the good old fashioned way.  Collecting "cosmetic gear" is actually a fun hobby for a lot of players and could create some interesting opportunities for players in-game.  Someone might find a really cool looking cloak or sword ... the stats might not be great, but because of how cool it looks, they could sell it and make a nice chunk of change.  I feel that having rare "appearance gear" in game would be extremely refreshing and be a great step toward returning us to the glorious days of yesteryear.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 7, 2017 9:28 AM PST
    • 1303 posts
    December 8, 2017 8:14 AM PST

    I thought Brad said they were putting a degree of emphasis on knowing what a person was wearing by looking at them. Seems to run counter to the notion of appearance slots. 

     

    • 3237 posts
    December 8, 2017 8:47 AM PST

    @Feyshtey

    Don't want to derail this thread, but I don't think that's where the emphasis was placed.  My understanding was that there would be an emphasis on "you earn what you wear."  Appearance slots are in line with that statement.  Another way to look at it ... "That person looks like they have earned a full set of rubicite!"  Well, they did, and they can demonstrate that even after some or all of that rubicite gear is replaced by other pieces.  I would recommend doing some searches on appearance gear.  I believe the plan is to allow players the option to /toggle this effect.  (You can /toggle whether or not you can see the "cosmetic appearance" AKA "appearance slots" on other players, or if you want to see the "true appearance" AKA "standard gear slots" of what they are wearing.)


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 8, 2017 8:51 AM PST
    • 801 posts
    December 8, 2017 9:08 AM PST

    What about putting a Vendor online.

    Pay for it by gold, or CC

    No trade? No selling back if so at a huge loss?

     

    We never where able to trade the horses in EQ, but we could buy them for a ton of gold. They never got traded on the market as far as i knew.

     

    • 3016 posts
    December 8, 2017 9:44 AM PST

    Just want to chime in here,  IT IS possible to have a serious conversation about the pros and cons of a certain feature (whether its to be or not to be) without assigning nefarious motivations to the Dev Team :)

       How many heads do we have in this thread?   Ever hear the saying..two heads are better than one,  when it comes to solving problems or THINKING UP NEW SOLUTIONS. 

       I've said my bit based on my past experiences.      If there is some way to combat gold farmers/plat sellers/powerlevelling companies (all RMT)  I'm for it,  if it takes a little fire to fight fire,  I can deal with that.

        The problem with kronos on the EQ progression servers,  is it is TRADEABLE, GIFTABLE.      Take that feature away,  and the player economy isn't inflated or affected,  newbies can play the game without everything being priced out of their reach.

         When inflation like that happens..."some" players,  look for the easy way out,  buying gold, buying platinum...or trading for kronos.   Let's derail that money train.  :)  Other wise its a vicious circle.

     

    And if you are a BUYER of these gold, plat, powerleveler services for real money,  you are part of the problem,  not the solution.  :)

     

    Cana

     


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at December 8, 2017 9:52 AM PST
    • 1921 posts
    December 8, 2017 9:48 AM PST

    Yep, the tradeable bit is the whole problem, and the mechanism by which it attempts to solve the problem it creates. :)

    • 60 posts
    December 8, 2017 10:02 AM PST

    I read an interesting article on Toms Hardware the other day that the U.S. House of Representatives is attempting to enact a law that would consider loot boxes as "gambling" and the ESRB to rate the game as 'M' for Mature.  This would add a significant incentive for MMO companies to end the loot box practice.  It may make sense for an emerging MMO to not include loot boxes to avoid any issues.  I think a better system is to allow ingame purchases of any cosmetic items (non-trade).  Rare cosmetic items could have a high price and limited availability to make them rare and desireable. 

    • 281 posts
    December 8, 2017 10:30 AM PST

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Just want to chime in here,  IT IS possible to have a serious conversation about the pros and cons of a certain feature (whether its to be or not to be) without assigning nefarious motivations to the Dev Team :)

       How many heads do we have in this thread?   Ever hear the saying..two heads are better than one,  when it comes to solving problems or THINKING UP NEW SOLUTIONS. 

       I've said my bit based on my past experiences.      If there is some way to combat gold farmers/plat sellers/powerlevelling companies (all RMT)  I'm for it,  if it takes a little fire to fight fire,  I can deal with that.

        The problem with kronos on the EQ progression servers,  is it is TRADEABLE, GIFTABLE.      Take that feature away,  and the player economy isn't inflated or affected,  newbies can play the game without everything being priced out of their reach.

         When inflation like that happens..."some" players,  look for the easy way out,  buying gold, buying platinum...or trading for kronos.   Let's derail that money train.  :)  Other wise its a vicious circle.

     

    And if you are a BUYER of these gold, plat, powerleveler services for real money,  you are part of the problem,  not the solution.  :)

     

    Cana

     

     

    I agree.

     

    I think the entire subject, as Brad brought it up, is about fighting plat/gold farmers and I agree that much of the problem is that there is a market for them.  If no one purchased gold/plat/accounts there would be no incentive to set up such businesses.  Of course, there must be some policing action on the farmers themselves.

    I hate loot boxes in MMOs regardless of the kronos/plex debate.  It simply doesn't fit the kind of game that I want to play and makes the game a casino rather than an adventure.  Also not a fan of wheel of fortune mechanics that some games have.  If it were simply a fun mini-game that had limited value and was used in an in-game casino, I wouldn't mind so much, but many games have a wheel at every quest hub (whole other issue) and is a main way to get gear.  Not a fan of that.

    The focus of an MMO, in my opinion, should be the adventures that one can go on with friends.  Any mechanic that shifts that focus to some mini-game/RNG casino is detracting from the reason to have an MMO.

    • 267 posts
    December 8, 2017 11:48 AM PST

    Wow, can't believe I missed this thread, especially with Aradunes request for comments on PLEX items. I've read a few replies, and I get why people want to stay away from them for fear of RMT occuring which is entirely a solid perspective. My preference however would be to include them with a minor tweak to prevent abuse of them for RMT purposes (mind you it wouldn't be absolutely fool proof but would significantly cut down on their use as a RMT item).

    I would type the whole thing out but I actually posted this previously in a different thread so I figured I'd save myself the time and just copy/paste it.

    Plex wo/ RMT, How about introducing ways for the community to tip subscription or help each other out with subscription cost without allowing these items to be directly traded or sold in game. Ideally allow these “Plex” to be broken into individual days. So instead of buying 1 plex you’d buy in 30 plex blocks for the price of a normal monthly subscription, each one being good for one day. Then you could give a day, a week or months at a time to other players. You could then in game /tip a character name a number of days, then a confirmation (you can’t undo this) box would popup and ask you to confirm, then once confirmed their subscription would automatically be extended X days (It would be added to their gametime and they wouldn’t get the actual plex so couldn't scam and tip to others or use it to RMT). That way the Plex could be used to build and keep guilds/communities together.

    Essentially the idea is to create non-tradable Plex that can only be used once to give the target an extension on their play time. The target wouldn't get the Plex, just have their time extended so its not like these could be use easily for RMT and those that did trade (give) ingame items to recieve plex time would face deminishing returns since after they got a few months or maybe a year of paid time on their account, they would be less insentivised to sell or trade items for plex. The benefits of allowing this type of system in my opinion far outweigh the negatives. This type of system allows communities to stay together and help each other out without sharing account info or credit cards, which is IMO critically important for a game placing a great emphsis on social interaction.

    • 3237 posts
    December 8, 2017 1:53 PM PST

    Keldaria, using your example, what would stop someone from "tipping" another player a full plex block for X amount of gold?  You mentioned "without allowing these items to be directly traded or sold in game" which is something I could see players easily circumventing.  Maybe I am not understanding what kind of restriction you are proposing as it relates to the process of "tipping" someone?  I believe the main issue people have with PLEX is that it is a form of P2W.  If someone can spend cash for an asset that can then be traded or "tipped" to another player for in-game currency, that is P2W.  Breaking them down into 30 mini-blocks would just make them easier to sell, IMO.  Could you elaborate on your idea further to help me better understand?


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 8, 2017 1:54 PM PST
    • 281 posts
    December 8, 2017 2:40 PM PST

    One thing to keep in mind is that there are always a demographic that will wish to skip time in game to gain something and are willing to pay for it.  As long as this market exists, some way to fill it will be found.  The benefit of kronos/plex is that the revenue from this goes to the developers and there can be some control over it.  However, it has never completely solved the issue in the past and has created other issues.  But there may be a net gain.  There may not be.

    When trying to solve address an issue, one must first understand the problem that needs to be solved.  Kronos/plex is at its base, an effort to solve gold farming/trading for real money by providing a "legal" means to do so.  Any solution that removes this aspect defeats the purpose.  Not doing it at all would be better.  One would still be stuck with gold farming/trading/spam.  There may be better ways to address this, though I've not seen any game that doesn't have it.  F2P games are much worse because of the ease with which new accounts can be created, but subscription based games are not immune by a longshot.  Kronos/Plex systems attempt to address the issue by reducing the market side of the situation.  Banning and other systems attempt to attack the farmers.  Neither has proven fully successful.

    I'm not posting this in favor of Kronos/Plex or against.  I don't like the solution, but I'm aware that a true solution might involve something on that side of the issue.

     

    • 123 posts
    February 5, 2018 7:10 PM PST

    I was reading all of the pages and wondered why people dislike the Kronos idea so much (I am indifferent, to the idea).  Then I read this part of a post from page 9:

     

    Xonth said:

    Now the reason people want to Kronos so badly is that you could sell them online for real money. EQ sold them for like $17 and the black market ones would buy them for like $10 and resell them to players for like $14 or something (not sure on exact prices). So some people wanted free game time but most wanted to make real money. They camped the big camps as a job for income not because they wanted to work on their characters.

     

    And that helped me understand why there is a bad taste for the sytem.  Why would you allow "Kronos" to be re-sold (I know, was the black market re-buying the Kronos and not EQ)?

    Simple solution: Purchase "Kronos" from VR website.  The person now has 3 options:

    1 - Gift "Kronos" to another account.

    2 - Put "Kronos" on-sale in the ingame broker for the amount of currency you want for the "Kronos" (put it up for 10 gold will sell quickly I am sure, put it up for 10k plat when others are at 100...  May take a LONG time to sell).  You do not get the gold until the Kronos is sold on the AH/Broker.

    3 - Use the "Kronos" yourself for additional game time (Kronos is never put in-game if this is the option).

    Once a player purchases "Kronos" from the ingame broker/AH (or is gifted "Kronos") the item is added to their currency UI and they can select when to use the "Kronos" (In game or from your account managment from VR website); however, they can not trade or re-sale the "Kronos" they purchased.  If they want a friend to have the play time, give them the gold to purchase the "Kronos" from the in-game broker/AH.

     

    The one thing I do remember about Wildstar was when a major dup bug was discovered.  Mass amounts of "Kronos" was bought with illegally gained gold.  Make sure you have plans in place incase a bug creates an influx of wealth and "Kronos" is purchased with the ill gotten gains.

     

    Was having the ability to re-sale "Kronos" the main (underlying) problem people had?

    • 3 posts
    February 5, 2018 7:42 PM PST

    If a krono like item exists, ie buy for cash resell for gold, then people will buy all the best items they can using real world currency.  Simple.

    • 132 posts
    February 6, 2018 3:48 PM PST

    I hope they avoid loot boxes and crazy housing cost looks like they will.

    Eso paying hundreds of Rl dollers for a player ingame house was rediculous. 

    Loot boxes shouldn't be in any mmo  they are not casinos. 

    • 13 posts
    February 6, 2018 4:03 PM PST

    I also saw the problem of Krono horders/farmers in EQ. and the effect it had on the economy.  I know what Krono was meant to solve.  It was a way for folks to pay for others monthly accounts.  Some folks have problems with subscription systems and this was a way arround it for them.

     

    What if you could only have ONE token/PLEX/Krono whatever on an account at any one time......

    • 123 posts
    February 6, 2018 5:26 PM PST

    Optt said:

    If a krono like item exists, ie buy for cash resell for gold, then people will buy all the best items they can using real world currency.  Simple.

     

    Do people not already do that now (buy items with gold bought with cash)?  Is it against the rules?  Yes, but still done by a lot of people.

    • 690 posts
    February 6, 2018 6:26 PM PST

    Cool thread everyone's covered everything I can think of, I just wanted to correct something I saw on the first page.

     

     

    Rachael said:

    There will be no cash shop in Pantheon, or any way to spend money on in game stuff :)

    In the FAQ:

    "15.0 What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life."

    This is untrue, VR has already announced that while they will attempt to make multiboxxing very difficult, they will not make it impossible. You will be able to spend real money on in game support characters. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at February 6, 2018 6:26 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    February 6, 2018 7:04 PM PST

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Cool thread everyone's covered everything I can think of, I just wanted to correct something I saw on the first page.

     

     

    Rachael said:

    There will be no cash shop in Pantheon, or any way to spend money on in game stuff :)

    In the FAQ:

    "15.0 What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life."

    This is untrue, VR has already announced that while they will attempt to make multiboxxing very difficult, they will not make it impossible. You will be able to spend real money on in game support characters. 

    This seems like a reach to me.

    • 690 posts
    February 6, 2018 7:06 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    This seems like a reach to me.

    Will multiple accounts be free?

    Or are you saying that an additional character, no matter how useful/useless, doesn't count as extra "in game stuff" you spend real money on?


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at February 6, 2018 7:13 PM PST
    • 9115 posts
    February 6, 2018 9:01 PM PST

    The topic of this thread is "No random loot boxes" and it has nothing to do with boxing, so please keep it on topic or your posts will be removed.

    • 690 posts
    February 6, 2018 9:19 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    The topic of this thread is "No random loot boxes" and it has nothing to do with boxing, so please keep it on topic or your posts will be removed.

    Sorry after this thread derailed to in game subscription items,

    I figured another curveball, which really was just a correction, wouldn't hurt anything.

    my apologies


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at February 7, 2018 12:41 AM PST
    • 29 posts
    February 7, 2018 10:32 AM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

     

    Please NO! Krono in EQ1 destroyed the Progression Servers. People and their boxes in Classic Everquest camped all the good spots ( Efreeti in Sol B , Magus in Guk ) and sold their loot for Krono. No other people could camp that stuff cause it got blocked. If you was at a camp by luck as the first player you could wait till a huge train came your way because one of the boxers wanted the camp again. It just provokes grieving. Good items wont be sold for ingame money but rather Krono/ RL money.