Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Live Stream 05/02 - Feedback

    • 177 posts
    May 3, 2017 6:43 AM PDT

    torveld said:

    Quick question about the buff scaling that was discussed at the start. A shaman's strength buff was used as an example of something that would give full value of strength to the lower level recipient but that character would likely not be able to hit for the maximum with it because of how weapon skills worked. I was wondering how this would apply to other buffs, would a level 1 character recieve the full amount of AC/HP from the level 40 cleric's buff or would high level mana regeneration buff give the full value to a lower level character, or is there some sort of skill that would prevent that?

    I truly hope that it's the full buff and not some scaled version. The buff should not last long enough for it to overly affect your levelling experience. And if you have a 50th level character following you around buffing you, so be it.

    Additionally, for EQ this only became a real issue once PoP hit and you could port ot the Plane of Knowledge to get a full suite of buffs that could easily be refreshed every 2 hours. Leave out the fast travel of this nature and this won't happen.

    • 1290 posts
    May 3, 2017 6:50 AM PDT

     For buffing, if balance is an issue, just make it so that you can only buff someone that is 10 levels lower than the buff. Say it's a level 50 spell, it can only land on level 40 or higher. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's not OK for a level 100 buff to land on a level 1 character.

    Regarding item scaling, they could always use "recommended level" type mechanics where items scale down. The recommended level could be set lower than the level the item is obtained so that the obtainers always gain full power, but if it's twinked you won't get the full power. Of course, I don't mind items not being scaled back, it's just a thought. Sting and the One Ring were full power no matter who wielded them :)


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 3, 2017 6:53 AM PDT
    • 1776 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:07 AM PDT

    Sounds like Investigate would be an active "search for a perception/quest node nearby" versus being able to have a combat advantage from Insight (dispositions).  If that's the case, I think this decision to force Keeper specialization will be unpopular.

    Interesting to see power leveling will be in, that will increase the target demographic significantly.  I personally dislike it, but from a financial perspective, it's a smart business decision.

    Great to see no de-leveling, hopefully it stays this way. (pure debt system)

    If you can't tell which way a mob is facing... the 180 degree thing is less useful.  It's great to see, yet there are often creatures you fight where you can't tell which is the front and which is the back, so hopefully there will be always be some way to tell.

    The auction house thing will be controversial.. for all the reasons already discussed on these forums for years.  Only thing I'll re-iterate is that a global search only, and not a global buy, with travel required to purchase addresses many of the concerns most people have.  Once you make the AH just annoying enough not to use, players will completely bypass it, and create a third party web based solution.

    Jumping/Falling is great, when you're a class that has safe fall.  If you -can't- get safe fall, is levitate going to be in?  If not... this is problematic, especially given the amount of verticality demonstrated in some zones.  Some MMO players I've met can't even get from A to B without /follow, never mind jumping to/from vertical surfaces spinning in mid-air where one misstep/miskey/lag = death.

    Low hit point aggro, again?  Well, I guess designing in exploitive systems is one option. :)  I've seen low hit point aggro abused a great deal in EQ1, so hopefully they design with this in mind.  As with any system like this, when you can override/force/guarantee mob actions, it leads to all sorts of emergent behavior that can be really unintended, especially in conjunction with things like infinite leashes & trains, and more.

    • 3408 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:24 AM PDT

    This was the best stream by far.  VR has done a tremendous job building the world of Terminus and my personal hype factor has increased tenfold after watching the stream.  The level of challenge, feel of the world, pace of combat ... amazing job team VR.  It was very refreshing to hear such a heavy emphasis being placed on positioning, and as far character power goes, I truly got the feeling that every attribute point was meaningful.  The shaman attack speed slow had a huge impact on the fights.  While Cohh was fighting, I noticed he wasn't taking advantage of hitting the mob from the rear until later in the stream when someone asked about block/parry/riposte/dodge.

    I see so much potential with this game ... I've been bought in for a long time already, but it's never felt as real as it does right now.  To think that we have another year plus of development to go ... it's crazy!  Joppa did an awesome job clarifying things at the beginning of the stream and I really appreciate the responsiveness and attention to detail regarding some of the questions that were being asked.  Overall, 100/100  --  VR aced this stream and I have all the confidence in the world in their team shaping Pantheon into a game for the ages.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 3, 2017 7:26 AM PDT
    • 1535 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:35 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    This was the best stream by far.  VR has done a tremendous job building the world of Terminus and my personal hype factor has increased tenfold after watching the stream.  The level of challenge, feel of the world, pace of combat ... amazing job team VR.  It was very refreshing to hear such a heavy emphasis being placed on positioning, and as far character power goes, I truly got the feeling that every attribute point was meaningful.  The shaman attack speed slow had a huge impact on the fights.  While Cohh was fighting, I noticed he wasn't taking advantage of hitting the mob from the rear until later in the stream when someone asked about block/parry/riposte/dodge.

    I see so much potential with this game ... I've been bought in for a long time already, but it's never felt as real as it does right now.  To think that we have another year plus of development to go ... it's crazy!  Joppa did an awesome job clarifying things at the beginning of the stream and I really appreciate the responsiveness and attention to detail regarding some of the questions that were being asked.  Overall, 100/100  --  VR aced this stream and I have all the confidence in the world in their team shaping Pantheon into a game for the ages.

    I agree. It was a great stream. There are some areas that obviously need improvement but overall I was impressed with how far the game has come since the December stream. I loved the view from the top of the tower and seeing the cloud covered hills and mountains in the distance. It made me really want to explore the zones and discover their secrets. I wonder how long it'll be now before the next stream? I guess if the last two streams are anything to go by and current progress it would be some time in October. I'd love to see some more regular streams though. Maybe shorter more focused streams at a higher frequency? That would keep everyone interested while not requiring too much new developer work for each new stream. Just an idea.

    But overall good job and keep going developers :). If this is what the game looks like in pre-pre-alpha I can't imagine how good it will look at release once a lot of people have had a chance to test it.

    • 3219 posts
    May 3, 2017 8:19 AM PDT

    >The info on both of these topics was anything but definitive (even in there direction<

    Thanks for the clarification you included, Archaen. I tend not to listen to streams (bad hearing) I rely on summaries here.

    • 177 posts
    May 3, 2017 8:30 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    >The info on both of these topics was anything but definitive (even in there direction<

    Thanks for the clarification you included, Archaen. I tend not to listen to streams (bad hearing) I rely on summaries here.

    No worries... sorry if it seemed I was attacking you. The problem with both of the topics that have gotten a lot of attention in this thread is they were mentioned at the end of the stream with very little info/discussion. The AH is a major topic and yet received no more than 2 mins in the stream with only Brad saying anything at all (and it's the same thing he's said for months/years now).

    Same with the de-leveling topic. Brad made a comment on it at the end of the stream for 30 secs. Given that Joppa weighed in on this thread saying the de-level is by no means out, I just feel it was a disservice to this excellent stream to give such information in such a flippant manner.

    I don't think either of these topics are settled internally, and yet so many commenters in this thread and others are taking these two ideas as set in stone. Small wonder you would get the impression you did in that sense.

    • 3007 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:38 AM PDT

    I don't know why anyone would be taking anything as set in stone for the most part. 

    vjek said:

    The auction house thing will be controversial.. for all the reasons already discussed on these forums for years.  Only thing I'll re-iterate is that a global search only, and not a global buy, with travel required to purchase addresses many of the concerns most people have.  Once you make the AH just annoying enough not to use, players will completely bypass it, and create a third party web based solution.

    Let's be honest, that is going to happen no matter what. If I can set up purchases/sales with another person from my computer at work for when I get home, I will definitely take advantage of that. 

    • 1290 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:59 AM PDT

    I've always said that anytime you put in a mechanic that allows you to not play the game, it's a mistake. Putting in an auction house does just that. If you are allowing players to just AFK and still make game progress (of any kind), it's a mistake.

    Players should be present (in game) to interact for buying/selling.

    • 177 posts
    May 3, 2017 12:16 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    I've always said that anytime you put in a mechanic that allows you to not play the game, it's a mistake. Putting in an auction house does just that. If you are allowing players to just AFK and still make game progress (of any kind), it's a mistake.

    Players should be present (in game) to interact for buying/selling.

    Really like this... very succinct way of defining the main issue with an AH. And a good all around strategy when developing an MMO.

    • 495 posts
    May 3, 2017 12:24 PM PDT

    What about the ultimate compromise about the action-house, you can post your items and browse them at the local auction house, but if you wanna buy you need to contact the seller and meet for the trade. (or the other option buy the item from the auction house (with and added fee) and wait a day or two for the item to arrive.)

    No, maybe, yes ? thoughts?

    • 81 posts
    May 3, 2017 1:57 PM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    Relieved to hear information about no direct item scaling and doing it via character level/skill level. It's incredibly important to me that Pantheon remain as free of artificial restrictions as possible.

    Then there is the issue with death resulting in respawn at bind. Was convinced that a bad decision was mad to allow characters to respawn in the zone they do after seeing these nexus everywhere. Hear that the current plan is back to bind without our gear put my mind at ease.

    Now if only we hear that level loss is back in and auction houses come with a heavy tax to promote traditional trade, that'd be a perfect end to this round of streaming.

    I share your sentiments Dullahan.

    I was glad to hear that respawning at a nearby nexus/zoneline after death is probably just a temporary thing to assist with testing (which makes sense) and that returning to your bind point will likely be where that feature/mechanic ends up ultimately.

    Like you, I'd also like to see level loss in the game as well.  Sure, many of us have witnessed or heard horror stories of people de-leveling multiple levels in EQ in a short period of time.  That was a very rare occurrence though and generally was a result of someone (unwisely) binding in a dangerous/KOS place and falling asleep at their keyboard or staying logged into the game and not paying attention to what was happening to their character. 

    If VR programs the game to automatically kick people from the game after a set period of inactivity and/or make it where you have to manually consent to release your corpse before respawning, then that should remove those "death loop" horror story scenarios in theory if level losses were put into Pantheon.

    If level loss is not in the game and someone reaches max level and knows that there is no way for them to lose that level then what will make them respect their environment and others?

    Even if a max level player incurs some exp debt from dying, that’s nothing more than a minor inconvenience that they can work off over time. The only way a scenario like that would even be meaningful/impactful at all that I can think of would be if a new expansion was coming soon and the level cap was going to be raised and those players wanted to be max level with no exp debt when the new expansion hit.

    What’s to stop some malicious max level person who is capped on exp who can’t lose any actual exp or de-level from deciding they want to train a group in a dungeon at a camp they want to camp to free it up for themselves? Sure that malicious person might die and have to recover their corpse/gear, but with no fear of losing any actual exp or their level the consequences of such an action seem small compared to if they ran the risk of losing actual exp and/or their level.

    Some people point to EQ where the level everyone really wanted to hit was 46, because that meant you could go to the Planes! Some people would hit 46, barely get any exp/buffer into it and head to the Planes, only to die (not something uncommon in the Planes) and de-level to 45 and be unable to (immediately) zone back in to retrieve their corpse due to the level restriction.

    That was/is an easily avoidable problem I think, as any reasonable/intelligent person would usually make sure to get fair enough into 46 that they could die at least a few times before venturing into the Planes, even without an exp ress and still keep their level.

    As far as the AH goes, I was a bit bummed to hear about the local AH idea as well. As many others have stated, I fear that ultimately one AH/location will dominate the others and you might as well have a global AH system at that point, which would be a huge bummer to me.

    That being said, I will wait to see what VR has in mind and experience/test it before I make any quick, uneducated judgements. I do think Dullahan offers a good compromise/suggestion in that if they do stick with the AH idea that AH transactions could be heavily taxed to still encourage face-to-face player trade/interaction. But at the same time, offer those who don’t like to actively sell/trade and consider it a waste of time or claim to not have the time to do so, an option to sell their goods, but most likely at a smaller profit to balance out the convenience/expediency of it.

    Let me focus more on the topic of this thread though….  

    As far as the content of the stream itself, I loved it. Every stream VR does is as good or better than their last (IMO). Each time, we are able to see an improvement on something we saw before or something totally new that we haven’t seen yet, which are all signs of progress. Whether it’s the character models, spellcasting/combat animation, weapon & armor appearance/detail, completely new zones, new NPC AI/dispositions, etc.

    I was glad to see a mid-level dungeon this time around, at least that’s my assumption since the devs said the named/bosses they fought were around level 30. I’m guessing the stuff lower in the tower was probably somewhere in the 20’s and stuff higher in the tower (depending on how much more there is) would probably be somewhere in the 30’s. Since Amberfaet is a higher level dungeon that we’ve already seen, it seems that the team is slowly getting group/dungeon content put into the game to cover all level ranges. That is obviously a good thing and hopefully will allow spells/combat abilities for all classes/levels to be fleshed out, now that there seems to be content for nearly all levels to test them on.

    As was the case with the last stream, I was glad the team kept with somewhat of a non-traditional quaternity group setup, to show that groups don’t have to be a cookie-cutter type layout to succeed or do well. Where they had a rogue CC’ing instead of an enchanter and had a shaman healing instead of a cleric, etc. They managed to work together quite well with that setup, which was encouraging to me because hopefully that means certain classes will not be excluded from consideration for open group spots in favor of a “preferred” class as the consensus to fill a certain role/archetype.

    I liked the fact is was a strategic/methodical crawl to their destination and that they had to work for it. Along that same vein, I liked the fact that they had to be mindful of making sure to try and get certain unnamed mobs alone by themselves due to their difficulty or risk wiping. I’m glad to know that people will have to be mindful of their surroundings and what pay attention to what types and how many mobs they are going to pull.

    I only have a few criticisms and they aren’t really criticisms, as this is pre-pre alpha (or whatever the appropriate term is). The main thing being how easy it was for the group, specifically Cohh (a monk) to split pulls for the group. It seems he was able to pull the NPCs very close to the group without them aggroing the group and that the NPCs were not linked together very well in regards to chain aggro.

    Again that is not really a criticism as I’m sure that will be focused on more down the road and tuned to a greater degree.

    My only other criticism really is that some things (tower structure/architecture, view of the landscape off in the distance) didn’t look very detailed/polished. Again though I chalk that up to this being pre-pre alpha and assume that will improve over time as well.

    Overall though I loved the stream and if the improvements between the two recent streams and the one in December is any reliable indicator, I can’t imagine what is in store for us on the next stream and the painful wait has already begun.  : )

    • 195 posts
    May 3, 2017 5:19 PM PDT

    As much as I dislike disleveling, I have to agree with the posters here that as a concept it is so much better if it can happen. And as Dullahan pointed out, I think only a rather hefty tax on auction house sales would make it optional, and face to face trading another real option. Otherwise the AH would prevail, I have no doubt about that. 

    That said, I loved the wolf. And many other things. But most of all the wolf. I'll need to roll a shammy alt.

    • 9 posts
    May 3, 2017 5:24 PM PDT

    Kept seeing mentions of 'rotations'.  Is that going to be a thing again?  Trying to min/max your timing for button mashing is....dull, and I wouldn't really call it 'next gen'

    • 1270 posts
    May 3, 2017 8:06 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

     For buffing, if balance is an issue, just make it so that you can only buff someone that is 10 levels lower than the buff. Say it's a level 50 spell, it can only land on level 40 or higher. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's not OK for a level 100 buff to land on a level 1 character.

    I truly hope they don't go that way...forces us to stop and reload spells to find buffs that "fit" and this could be more than one if your in the guild hall or city where players of various levels are. In this method they just won't happen

    No, no, no.. even unnatural scaling is better than this.

    • 1986 posts
    May 3, 2017 8:54 PM PDT

    Veranscoto said:

    Kept seeing mentions of 'rotations'.  Is that going to be a thing again?  Trying to min/max your timing for button mashing is....dull, and I wouldn't really call it 'next gen'

    In general I hope not. Could work for some classes. But Im looking for more layered and strategic combat, hopefully with a dash of dice rolls, just to throw you off.

     

    One encounter I have had with rotations that wasnt bad was FFXIVs Monk. You had inter-connected positional combos you built up. In this case because it feels like running through martial arts forms or katas, so I was okay with it.

    • 91 posts
    May 4, 2017 3:29 PM PDT

    A few thoughts/opinions:

    Death Mechanic:

    I like a lot of the systems/mechanics of Everquest I.  So my vote is to keep the death system very similar to EQ1.  Clerics with a 96% rez and Pallys with a 90%.  Perhaps extend a 90% rez to either or both Druid or Shaman depending on class design goals.  Keep deleveling in and have an experience rez countdown timer.  I think you want to have decent rez availability within the game, but you don't want to have it so accessible, that it is essentially a given.

    Mob Behavior

    I'm sure the mobs will get smarter as the development of the game continues.  But yes, more wandering mobs would be good.  And also, there seemed to be a lot of the type of mobs that ran to bring others when aggroed.  I think that is a great mechanic, but it seemed too common, even though the monk was pretty effective at dealing with that mechanic (perhaps a bit too effective).  Not sure I saw snare used in any of the fights, but that was always a great counter to mobs trying to run at low health.  Caster mobs that potentially can gate back to their bind spot was also a fun mechanic, hopefully we get to see something similar to that as well.

    Game World

    I'll have to re-watch and see why the caster got aggro and died.  But in general, I think consistency is important for a gaming world.  You typically want to allow players to learn how things behave within the gaming world so that they can adapt and get better.  You can always have special modifiers or routines for special named mobs or raid encounters.  But, in general, I have found that games that provide a constent mechanic throughout the gaming world, allow players to learn those mechanics and develop skill sets that eventually seperate good players from bad ones.  An example being, in Everquest I, you learned from experience that sitting down to med when a mob was being pulled was often a painful idea.  So you learned how mobs reacted to that and got better at deciding when it was safe to sit down and med.  That's just one example of consistent behavior that translates into learning how best to interact with the gaming world.  Hopefully that concept will be present in Pantheon.

    Scaling

    I am not a fan of scaling.  Having buffs (or items for that matter) that automatically scale down is a bit too drab and does not allow for any differential for someone who seeks out a character with a higher level buff.  I think stick to the Everquest I mechanic of setting a level range where buffs can be received from a higher level character at full strength.  Really hoping that scaling has not yet been set in stone.

    • 516 posts
    May 4, 2017 3:44 PM PDT

    I like the way the wolf looks now too.  But, it could be better.  I am not sure how many of you have experience a wolf ready to kill you or something else but the hair ont he back of it's neck and shoulder region puffs up real big like - you know when you see it that it is a scary moment.  Would love to see that.  Also, in support of Shaman (shamen?) everywhere - and since I have never played one nor ever plan to - I would like to suggest that at ANY time the mob turns to flee, the shammy pet should be getting HUGE attack bonuses and maybe even some sort of root.  Have you ever tried to run from an attacking wolf?

    • 150 posts
    May 4, 2017 4:06 PM PDT

    The regional auction house ordeal is a little bit of a concern to me. Not that I would be bothered by it if they did it. It's not typically the kind of thing that concerns me too much. It may bother others though. In Vanguard it started as regional auction houses and people had to take shards or run from continent to continent to check and see if what they needed was up on the other one. The market on Thestra took off and left Kojan and Qalia behind and eventually nobody ever posted on the other ones.

    The "encouraging players to travel" theory is all well and good and has good intentions, but the bottom line is people will only port there to go to the AH then go back to where it was they wanted to be in the first place. People get more caught up in making the best use of their time rather than what seems the most real. When I was harvesting and selling materials in vanguard early on I put my materials up on all 3 auction halls. Some would sell fast, some wouldn't sell at all. Then only one market had items that would sell then I heard so much complaining on it that they merged the 3 together.

    I was thrilled when they said they were going to keep unique mobs similar to everquest. I loved camping items. Unless it was something that never ever dropped. I didn't mind spending 3-4 hours somewhere as long as a named spawns regularly and had something if not the item I was looking for then something that might fetch a nice price on the market. I enjoyed those unique items that were sparse far more than I ever did randomly generated gear that dropped collectively off every mob. I think this played a large part in the popularity that Everquest initially attracted. People would sit on a list 10-12 players deep in Lower Guk just at the chance to get into a camp that might actually drop what they needed. Now of course I don't wish that on anyone anymore. However people did it and they were happy too. That's how important I think the unique named and unique items really are. People gain familiarity with these items and they aren't just another randomly generated pixel. They are something you worked for and you knew and remembered how hard it was to get and you cherish it that much more. I remember keeping my Shining Metallic Robes forever even after I upgraded in PoFear. Just because it took me so long to get and it meant more to me than the plat selling it was going too. I think Everquest made me cherish gear more than any other game I have ever played.

    • 126 posts
    May 4, 2017 4:31 PM PDT

    Moloka said:I didn't mind spending 3-4 hours somewhere as long as a named spawns regularly and had something if not the item I was looking for then something that might fetch a nice price on the market.
    but if all named spawned regularly and always dropped something good, it wouldn't fetch a nice price on the market :p it would just mean everyone could get good items easily.


    This post was edited by letsdance at May 4, 2017 4:32 PM PDT
    • 150 posts
    May 4, 2017 5:22 PM PDT

    letsdance said:

    but if all named spawned regularly and always dropped something good, it wouldn't fetch a nice price on the market :p it would just mean everyone could get good items easily.

    That's a good point. I'm sure with a little tweaking to spawn times and rarity of drop rate it could be easily fixed though. I just always enjoyed when I camped items that the named spawned frequently and the item was rare. Rather than the named being really rare to even spawn. It made it feel like I at least had a chance to get my item while I was fighting him. Made the fight more fun. Like a good example would be Efreeti Lord Djarn in SolB in EQ. He spawned pretty regularly. People made off with hundreds of pairs of Efreeti boots. They really wanted the Amethyst ring but the boots were a nice consolation.

    • 3007 posts
    May 4, 2017 6:31 PM PDT

    Moloka said:

    That's a good point. I'm sure with a little tweaking to spawn times and rarity of drop rate it could be easily fixed though. I just always enjoyed when I camped items that the named spawned frequently and the item was rare. Rather than the named being really rare to even spawn. It made it feel like I at least had a chance to get my item while I was fighting him. Made the fight more fun. Like a good example would be Efreeti Lord Djarn in SolB in EQ. He spawned pretty regularly. People made off with hundreds of pairs of Efreeti boots. They really wanted the Amethyst ring but the boots were a nice consolation.

    I hear ya. I feel the opposite though, seeing the rare finally spawn gives a certain excitement because you know you are getting something and the whole fight you are hoping it is one of a few things. 

    • 1762 posts
    May 5, 2017 7:19 AM PDT

    vjek said:

     

    Great to see no de-leveling, hopefully it stays this way. (pure debt system)

    I dislike this idea. You're basically making people at max level immune to exp loss. 

    • 3408 posts
    May 5, 2017 7:27 AM PDT

    The death penalty will have various iterations tested, including the possibility of de-leveling.

    • 2157 posts
    May 5, 2017 7:43 AM PDT

    Pantheon seems to be shaping up to be exactly what it needs to be. A game with EQ's strengths, however with its own identity. In other words, the Vanguard that should have been.

    Every few months I love seeing the progress that's being made. I'm so tired of the current MMO landscape that my desire to get my hands on this game can't really be put into words.

    ALPHA WHEN?

    Seriously though. Want to play. :(


    This post was edited by Liav at May 5, 2017 7:43 AM PDT