Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Live Stream 04/27 - Feedback

    • 1762 posts
    April 28, 2017 11:29 AM PDT

    torveld said:

    The 1.5 - 2 second global cooldown seemed sufficient to keep you busy without jamming on your keyboard constantly. I like that it seems far more complex than EQ's combat, I feel EQ was way too slow and simple to enjoy only playing a single character in. I guess I am more in the camp of wanting to stay active in combat instead of only pressing 1 or 2 buttons every 10 seconds.

     

    EQ is way too slow for a modern game, but modern games are just spam. The more skills you have, the less each individual skill matters. I don't want to see a level 20 toon with 2 full bars of abilities. I hope they can strike a balance between engaging gameplay, without watering everything down. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at April 28, 2017 11:29 AM PDT
    • 12 posts
    April 28, 2017 12:11 PM PDT

    @Krixus: I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  

    The risk of losing your stuff because your group wasn't capable of handling content was the ultimate factor in toeing the line.  Determining how far you could make it with your group was spectacular, and a big part of the social bonding aspect of the game.  People that were interested in seeing it all and doing it all inevitably found their way to each other, while people that were content with a relaxed gaming atmosphere were cool with grinding xp in the less difficult areas.  

    The approach of "Maybe we can zerg it, kill the big guy, loot it & get the cool stuff before we all wipe, and if we do, at least we keep our stuff!" is far more cheese than "dammit, we died, hopefully someone will give us a hand in recovering our hard earned stuff".  


    This post was edited by Blinkor at April 28, 2017 12:13 PM PDT
    • 615 posts
    April 28, 2017 1:25 PM PDT

    Krixus said:

    I didn't say it was bad, but we're acting like identifying that a mob will run and get help is some kind of amazing new dynamic. Making us pay attention is good.

    Like chess? Um, competitive chess is extremely fast paced. Your biggest enemy is sometimes the clock.

    In the pantheon difference section about NPC dispostions and behavior you can read that the alarmist is only one of the list
    you also have the bully, the craven, the opportunist, the protector, and the strategist.
    Looking at mob AI in other MMOs ,their AI is so dumb that they'd follow the beam of a lamp on the wall.
    I do believe these different types of mobs will introduce a welcoming new dynamic to spice up combat.

    If you feel like the clock is your biggest enemy ,you have to be kind to it in order for it to cease being your enemy
    Different types of chess ,different playstyles and rules for different target audience

    quietus said:


    I think that highlights the main difference in how people see Pantheon. One could see it like a PVP game that leans towards a more action crowd. The other sees it as an extension of a D&D game which tends to be about cooperation working against an enemy/challenge in an immersive world. That cooperation is generally (not always) slower paced than a PVP game.

    Both playstyles are valid, but considering EQ (which was inspired to bring the D&D tabletop into the online world) is the soul of this game I don't see the game going action/fast paced. I do think the animations will get better, but the foundation of what you are seeing will not go away.


    As quietus points out MMOs are also built on different principles ,for different audiences

    Krixus said:

    Don't get me wrong, I'm FIRMLY in the 3d mud/tabletop camp.
    The last thing I want to see in combat is fast twitch button mashing.

    So you want engaging gameplay without watering everything down.
    The slower combat requires you to have focus all the time,strategize,talk things over
    Played most of the so-called action combat MMOs and I'm convinced they are shallow and turn old quickly
    Everything turns around rotation ,actionbars and smashing buttons.
    So to me it looks like what you are asking for is the opposite of what you actually want now.
    I don't understand

    Can't say I wasn't excited for the combat <3 so there I can't agree 

    • 42 posts
    April 28, 2017 1:55 PM PDT

    Very nice stream, I like how the game is progressing. I was really impressed with the graphics and animations.

    The odd thing was the group seemed a bit overmatched for the content they were taking on. Just an add or two and someone's dead, needing some help from people outside the group, and the pace of mob kills vs healer's mana seemed a bit low for my taste. It would be interesting to see what will be the best xp flow for a group. Killing the dark blue cons at a constant pace with little threat of death, or red's and yellows with some downtime and possible wipes.

    The other thing is FD pulling still looks like it's gonna be awkward and time consuming process.I hope monk's get other tools to pull like pacify at least one mob at a time. I can see it being really frustrating in a group trying to wait for mobs to path back in a certain order to pull a mob. Also if FD mem wipes a mob, monks will pretty much be able to get anywhere in a dungeon with little threat of dying.

    Overall I enjoyed what I saw in the stream. This is gonna be a great game.

    • 1991 posts
    April 28, 2017 2:15 PM PDT

    I just watched the stream for a second time.  I wrote down a few notes so I could collect my thoughts and give feedback.

    Acclimation:

    ~I like how the infusions aren't on gear/armor so that you aren't forced to carry around a set of equipment for each atmosphere type. Hopefully that doesn't become a thing in addition to infusions.

    ~I thought the frozen screen effect looked good but I'm concerned that it takes up to much screen space.  Maybe that could be dialed back a bit? My laptop screen is small enough already.  It seemed to really hinder your viewing area.  Please don't punish people who use smaller monitors.

    Familiar:

    ~I liked seeing the wizard familiar for the first time.  It looked good.  I'm hoping it ends up actively doing something.  Is it just a passive pet that follows the wizard around giving them benefits?  It may as well be a buff and not add to screen clutter/lag if that is the case (more important in highly populated locations and full raid groups).  I'm hoping this is an early version and it ends up being more than a flying buff.

    Corpses:

    ~My first response to the skeletal player corpses was that they looked cool.  Then I started thinking about 50+ people dying in a pile.  Being able to recognize what the characters corpse looks like would make it easier to find a corpse in the the pile to drag out.  Unsure if this is that big of a deal though because, well,  the skeletons looked cool.  

    Alarmists:

    ~I like naming NPC's who go get help alarmists.  While it isn't a new mechanic, it seems like it is going to be used a lot more often than what many of us have previously experienced.  I like it.  It definitely increases the difficulty level and increases the benefit of being familiar with an encounter.  Alarmist is a term that the playerbase will become familiar with very quickly.

    Multiboxing:

    ~This is a tricky one.  The quote was made during the stream "You aren't going to see boxed armies perma camping stuff".  I don't think anyone on your team should make that type of statement.  You will see players camping spawns who multibox no matter how challenging the gameplay is.  Maybe not the top tier, hardest content in the game that is tuned to a full group or more...but rare drop items will be camped by people who multibox.  Even if it wasn't an approved of tactic, which it is.  This type of thing seems so much more common and prolific these days than even just a few years back.  I have to admit this part bothered me a little bit.  I think it is a stance that should be re-evaluated.

    Secondary roles:

    ~There were a couple characters in the group who seemed to be playing roles that were usually filled by another class.  Was the Shaman the one who was casting breeze? or?...I think that's who was casting it.  The rogue was doing some CC.  I like these alternative class roles.  I have some questions on how these type of secondary roles balance in relation to other classes,  

    Giving low tier mana regen spell to the Shaman seems perfect to me.  The Shamans healing power has always been secondary to the Clerics.  Give these type of classes beneficial secondary abilities that make them more desirable in groups works out great.  I do question the class balance on the rogue being able to CC, but it depends on how things balance out in the end.  If the rogue ends up being the highest melee dps in the game then it seems like allowing them to CC might be to much (even if they can't do both simultaneously).  If another class is the highest melee dps in the game then it is perfect to give the rogue extra CC abilities for balance.   Otherwise, consider giving some of those CC abilities to a ranger or another class who is not already considered "the best" at their role in the group. 

    In general I love the direction this is gong and I hope to see other classes being able to play secondary roles in order to increase their desirability in groups.

    Sound effects:

    ~I know others feel the same way.  I love the buff sound effects and the level up sound.  I loved it in 2000 and it is still perfect today.  Fantastic!

    Thanks for all you guys have been doing.  I look forward to seeing the magicians tower next week.

     

     


    This post was edited by philo at April 28, 2017 3:09 PM PDT
    • 615 posts
    April 28, 2017 4:37 PM PDT

    Lovely list philo

    Thinking about the Acclimation a little longer
    I wonder if environmental objects could also have some kind of tiers to resist climate.Maybe objects that go to pieces under a mixture of atmospheres?
    The debris that remains can contain some of the reagents to craft infusions ,which players can discover through the perception system?
    Example,Under extreme pressure and cold,a joist could burst,pillars collapse etc
    This urges the player to alter strategy ,reposition
    Players might even utilize affected objects to gain the advantage in combat?

    Almost fogot about the drake familiar <3 It was so cute.
    maybe some alignments/races could get different looking drake with different properties?
    I do love the model that was shown,maybe according to habitat they'd have different skin colour and features?

    Good question about corpse retrieval in a skeleton pile of 50+people

    Noticed in a group there was a direction arrow next to player names

    Likely won't solve the issue totally,but its a start
    Also like the idea of corpse dragging. Maybe players can interact with a huge pile and then click the portrait in the group and select *retrieve/drag corpse* of the selected player in the party?

    • 4530 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:27 PM PDT

    philo said:

    ~I thought the frozen screen effect looked good but I'm concerned that it takes up to much screen space.  Maybe that could be dialed back a bit? My laptop screen is small enough already.  It seemed to really hinder your viewing area.  Please don't punish people who use smaller monitors.

    The overall percentage of your screen covered would be the same no matter the actual size of your monitor, as it would probably scale proportionally. I think decreased visibility is intended to be part of the punishment for not being acclimated, rather than just an aesthetic detail.

    • 1273 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:40 PM PDT

    I had fun watching. Thought it was a good stream. The Monk looks awesome. The new animations are pretty good. Some of the attack animations (like dual wield) look a little exaggerated though, so I hope it gets toned down.

    • 1991 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:42 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    philo said:

    ~I thought the frozen screen effect looked good but I'm concerned that it takes up to much screen space.  Maybe that could be dialed back a bit? My laptop screen is small enough already.  It seemed to really hinder your viewing area.  Please don't punish people who use smaller monitors.

    The overall percentage of your screen covered would be the same no matter the actual size of your monitor, as it would probably scale proportionally. I think decreased visibility is intended to be part of the punishment for not being acclimated, rather than just an aesthetic detail.

    I understand the percentage is the same.  It still seems like it might add a greater disadvantage to those who are already on a small screen...and are already at somewhat of a disadvantage.  It's not the end of the world.  We can look through a 6inch x 6inch sized window if we have to.  I have a 15" monitor on my laptop which isn't bad.  I know some might be on something smaller.  Just something to take into consideraton. 

    • 858 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:45 PM PDT

    Loved the stream, what an incredible advancement since the last one! Well done VR!!  

    bigdogchris said:

    I had fun watching. Thought it was a good stream. The Monk looks awesome. The new animations are pretty good. Some of the attack animations (like dual wield) look a little exaggerated though, so I hope it gets toned down.

    I am also hoping the sheld bash gets a bit more beefy! Looked a little more like a shield shrug! :)

     

     

    • 615 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:34 AM PDT

    Forgot to give praise for the action spellbook. I love the design of the icons.It takes me back to the glory years of might and magic 

    • 444 posts
    April 29, 2017 6:02 AM PDT

    Loved the video. Tons of stuff grabbed my attention and I think this is a marked improvement on the previous run through. Very nice work.

    The ice thing on the UI; I can take or leave it, however, it would be useful when you get into extreme climates to know something bad is happening.

    It was nice that other people outside the group had an impact on our party's fights (including buffs, heals and damage). Great!

    The environment graphics were lovely and seem tweaked since previous vids. Characters are certainly more lively appealing and its great to see more mob AI in action. I particularly liked the guard who ran away to get the others at the tower.

    Fighting, yes it isnt a reaction based fighting system, but I don’t agree that it is a static one either. Many times an unintended pull brought a nice bit of chaos to the proceedings as people moved about and positioned themselves for the fight. I would like to see a little more where a mob aoe was laid down that required players to move out of the way, but not to the extent of twitch-fights. Generally, the way its going is fine with me.

    Acclamation imo needs to be fleshed out a bit more. Just seems to simplistic. In another thread I suggested that you should have a natural acclamation element and an equipment based element to the system too.

    Agro seemed to be at a nice level too, i.e. tanks losing it with relative ease. It gives a bit of jeopardy to the other classes; I always liked balancing dps against agro.

    I also loved the sound effects of spells and level gaining, ahhh the memories.

    All in all, there wasnt anything in the video that made me think, "uh, that's not good." Keep it up. Its very appreciated and I cannot wait to get to the character creation screens. :D

    Oh yeah, also loved the icons displayed, clear and appealing and most being intuative.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at April 29, 2017 6:07 AM PDT
    • 1915 posts
    April 29, 2017 8:02 AM PDT

    The stream was fun and informative. However, the devs are so distracted answering questions that we really do not see serious gameplay.

    I would love to see some serious gameplay showing solid tactics for like 20 minutes or so. Show us some high level, competent gameplay.

    I understand this takes time away from information. So, maybe have someone NOT in the group answer the questions, while the active groups shows us solid gameplay.

    • 1739 posts
    April 29, 2017 8:11 AM PDT

    Kasekil said: ... The other thing is FD pulling still looks like it's gonna be awkward and time consuming process.I hope monk's get other tools to pull like pacify at least one mob at a time. I can see it being really frustrating in a group trying to wait for mobs to path back in a certain order to pull a mob. Also if FD mem wipes a mob, monks will pretty much be able to get anywhere in a dungeon with little threat of dying.

    ...

    Correct.  If it remains as is, that's exactly how OP it will be, as FD has always been in EQ1 for any class that had it.  Design goal loophole exception, engage!

    Personally? I hope feign death means that each monster on the feign death aggro list runs to the "body" and hits it once to make sure it's "dead" and such hits cannot be blocked, parried, absorbed, mitigated or in any way avoided, always hit, and always crit.   That means if you want to FD, that's fine, but you will still run the risk of dying, even to grey mobs.  It's not a 100% get-out-of-death-free card, and is less likely to be used for malicious training (without eating a death as the Monk).

    Overall, I'm pretty disappointed that single pulls are going to be in Pantheon at all, but it's their game and their money. :)

    X

    • 19 posts
    April 29, 2017 11:34 AM PDT

    Finally got to see the 4/27 live stream and loved it.  Quite a few of my questions were answered.  I am so glad we will be able to do friendly pass by buffings/healing.  Breeeze is back!!  WOO HOO.  My personal thing is solo playing.  I can group (I am getting better) and while watching I figured now would be a good time to start making game friends that I will, eventually, feel comfortable grouping with. 

    With that in mind, perhaps I could ask for some assistance.  Since I like to solo but will group sometimes, what race/class would be best suited for that?  Everyone's input will be appreciated.  :)

     

    Stargem, the original since 1999

     

    • 14 posts
    April 29, 2017 12:52 PM PDT

    Archaen said:

    One specific thing I wanted to discuss: during the stream there was talk about methods of travel, and a discussion around grouping where Brad commented that you'd be able to quickly join your friends at the bottom of a dungeon. This brings up two concerns for me:

    1) Friends vs World: I understand the desire of creating ways for friends to play together. I hope that it doesn't come at the cost of the feeling/size of the world. For instance, if a one friend is playing a low level Ogre and another a low level Elf, yet they want to play together, I don't see how you reasonably facilitate this. Nor, imo, do I think you should. If they want to make the trek, and face the consequences of taking a non-friendly race to another area I'm all for that. We did it many times in EQ and dealt with all the attendant problems. It surely made the world and the cultures feel much more alive and real than any of the games that followed.

    2) Grouping Friends Quickly: I'm not sure how you create a system to allow friends to join up quickly without it being abused and making the dangers of the world frequently trivial. Whether it's fast travel or summoning a friend to the bottom of a dungeon or what have you, allowing these things as part of a system and not a class is a mistake, imo. I was fine with the way pre-Luclin/Power EQ approached this. You want fast travel? Find a druid/wizard that can get your 75% of the way there. You need to be summoned to the bottom of a dungeon? Better have a mage along with you, or someone who can drag your corpse. Want a revive? Healers ftw. Want a corpse drag/summon? Rogue/Necro/Monk/etc. Letting the player base be the solution rather than the game systems/NPCs. And if we have to make our way back to the top to pick up a friend, then so be it.

    In essence, I really hope they give the world its due and make it something we feel we're in and not just systems we're managing. Friend or not, the world should not care.

     

     

    I totally agree with Archaen.. on these points.. 

     

    The live stream was amazing. the VR team is progessing just nicely . Pantheon is taking us back to the old style MMORPG that has been long  forgotten .  

    • Moderator
    • 9259 posts
    April 29, 2017 7:00 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    The stream was fun and informative. However, the devs are so distracted answering questions that we really do not see serious gameplay.

    I would love to see some serious gameplay showing solid tactics for like 20 minutes or so. Show us some high level, competent gameplay.

    I understand this takes time away from information. So, maybe have someone NOT in the group answer the questions, while the active groups shows us solid gameplay.

    We actually discussed this, trying to talk in depth and play our classes in some tough situations usually equals a wipe, so we will probably have a dedicated Q&A person next stream and slow the questions down to areas where we can stop and talk for a brief time before moving on.

    • 1915 posts
    April 29, 2017 8:11 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Beefcake said:

    The stream was fun and informative. However, the devs are so distracted answering questions that we really do not see serious gameplay.

    I would love to see some serious gameplay showing solid tactics for like 20 minutes or so. Show us some high level, competent gameplay.

    I understand this takes time away from information. So, maybe have someone NOT in the group answer the questions, while the active groups shows us solid gameplay.

    We actually discussed this, trying to talk in depth and play our classes in some tough situations usually equals a wipe, so we will probably have a dedicated Q&A person next stream and slow the questions down to areas where we can stop and talk for a brief time before moving on.

    Wonderful. I think that will make the stream even better.

    • 156 posts
    April 30, 2017 8:09 AM PDT

    Hi, my list:

     

    the good:

     

    Overall graphics und world design

    The mobs have a kind of ai. Not static mobs, that wait to be pulled by a shot. :)

    The fights are not over in 5 seconds. I like the more tactical combat that leaves time for player communication etc.

    The interface seems to be very snappy although it is a pre alpha version of the game.

     

    the bad:

    The animations are still very stiff and look disconnected/detached from the rest of the world.

    The standard mobs are way too strong. 

    The lighting/shadows look very artifical.

     

     

    Greetings.

    • 1986 posts
    April 30, 2017 11:40 AM PDT

    @Larirawiel

    I have to say I kinda like it if normal mobs are extremely strong. They dont need to be crazy over the top hard. But I have no problem for instance if a melee mob of the same level gets a hold of cloth wearer and 1 or 2 shots them.

     

    Its a dangerous world. Step up or stay home! LOL Well thats my opinion, and just that.

    • 12 posts
    April 30, 2017 11:44 AM PDT

    Archaen said:

    One specific thing I wanted to discuss: during the stream there was talk about methods of travel, and a discussion around grouping where Brad commented that you'd be able to quickly join your friends at the bottom of a dungeon. This brings up two concerns for me:

    1) Friends vs World: I understand the desire of creating ways for friends to play together. I hope that it doesn't come at the cost of the feeling/size of the world. For instance, if a one friend is playing a low level Ogre and another a low level Elf, yet they want to play together, I don't see how you reasonably facilitate this. Nor, imo, do I think you should. If they want to make the trek, and face the consequences of taking a non-friendly race to another area I'm all for that. We did it many times in EQ and dealt with all the attendant problems. It surely made the world and the cultures feel much more alive and real than any of the games that followed.

    2) Grouping Friends Quickly: I'm not sure how you create a system to allow friends to join up quickly without it being abused and making the dangers of the world frequently trivial. Whether it's fast travel or summoning a friend to the bottom of a dungeon or what have you, allowing these things as part of a system and not a class is a mistake, imo. I was fine with the way pre-Luclin/Power EQ approached this. You want fast travel? Find a druid/wizard that can get your 75% of the way there. You need to be summoned to the bottom of a dungeon? Better have a mage along with you, or someone who can drag your corpse. Want a revive? Healers ftw. Want a corpse drag/summon? Rogue/Necro/Monk/etc. Letting the player base be the solution rather than the game systems/NPCs. And if we have to make our way back to the top to pick up a friend, then so be it.

    In essence, I really hope they give the world its due and make it something we feel we're in and not just systems we're managing. Friend or not, the world should not care.

     

    ^This

    • 235 posts
    April 30, 2017 12:03 PM PDT

    This is more of an issue I see that has been on most of the streams but it seems like every item that ever drops has +stats on them. A simple shield might have wisdom and the bracers that dropped several times all had several stats on them. I was really hoping that things with “magical” enhancements would be something you seek out, not something you have so many of your leave them behind. If a random guards drops a random shield it’s perfectly fine in my mind to have it be non-magical. Finding your lower level magical items in EQ was one of the hallmark of achievement in the lower levels of the game. I hate to have such an easy supply of stat gear.

    • 316 posts
    April 30, 2017 12:18 PM PDT

    I loved the stream!!! Just some thoughts and ideas to go over for future streams:

     

    Give the monk another skill that he can use to break up pulls, perhaps have it on a cool down timer so it's not too OP.

    Show us some ways we can move and enlarge our basic UI and other settings. 

    Use a stream to show us some crafting/harvesting progress youve made - show us fishing!!!!!  There are so many pages of posts curious about fishing you don't have to be finished with it we just want to see where it's going so we can give feedback, not to mention it will excite your fans!

    Talk to us about your plans for bag sizes.  You guys have mentioned having to carry around situational gear and food and other items.  Bag space could turn into an issue really fast if you guys are only planning on giving starting characters 6 -8 slot bags.  

    Show us what you have so far on the character customization screen.  Many of us are curious about your progress there and how we can fine tune our characters.

     

     

     

    • 12 posts
    April 30, 2017 12:33 PM PDT

    Sound effects:

    ~I know others feel the same way.  I love the buff sound effects and the level up sound.  I loved it in 2000 and it is still perfect today.  Fantastic!

    Thanks for all you guys have been doing.  I look forward to seeing the magicians tower next week.

     

    These sounds made me feel like Pavlov's Dog.....



    • 87 posts
    April 30, 2017 3:17 PM PDT

    daemonios said:

    Combat mechanics. I've already said previously that combat feels a bit static to me so far. All the videos I've watched show the same "pull a few mobs but not too many, mezz a few, tank and spank the others" tactic. I fully realise there may be things going on that I'm not getting from watching the streams, but I see little action once you engage a target. I personally would prefer having to block/dodge/move away from certain attacks such as enemy AoE. I think I saw some tail swipes from the birds early in today's stream, but I didn't notice anyone evading them or if the swipes did damage other than to the tank. Speaking of tanks, I think I only ever saw him tanking one enemy at a time. Is it feasible to tank several, or would the tank be unable to sustain hate from more than one target? Are there mobs that can't be mezzed, and if so, would groups require an off-tank?

     

    After reading this part.. In my personal opinion. The mobs are just overland stuff.. The game style your after are more of like raid mobs and deep dungeon crawls.