Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Live Stream 04/27 - Feedback

    • 1646 posts
    April 27, 2017 9:46 PM PDT

    daemonios said:

    Shucklighter said:

    I'm actually hoping to avoid that type of combat here, and I think they've promised we won't have action combat.  I'm also hoping not to see the pack fights to which we've become accustomed.  I want a game where you want to fight one at a time, and where an add is a scary thing.  We saw Aradune off-tank a bit here, but it was one mob, I believe, and it didn't go smoothly.  I definitely agree with your positives, though.  

    OK, I get that some people might prefer a different style of combat. I can live with careful pulls and the like. The thing is that, as shown right now, combat seems as if it will get old, fast. I don't really see anything to keep you on your toes, nothing to react to. Just stand there and have at them, as long as the tank has aggro and adds are mezzed. The one redeeming quality that I've seen mentioned is that mobs will be susceptible to different weapons/spells in different ways, which will force you to change your rotation or even your gear/memorized spells as you get to know their strenghts and weaknesses. But with fights taking a relatively long time even with a 6-man group, I'm concerned about the ammount of time spent standing in one place pressing a couple of keys in sequence.

    The main reason you saw the safe concept was because of the monk and hes pulling capability, i could see the pace they were at if you didn't have a pulling class it would be incredibiy diffcult and basically impossibe without a form of CC, just looked at the tanks health go down at a steady pace with just one of them tower guards there, if you would of had 2 it could of wiped the whole grp, so yes it looked safe that was becuase even though they didn't have the best grp comp they still had a little bit of a CCer and a puller to split mobs, imho by what i saw on the stream you need a good grp comp your you will find out very fast how bad things can get.

    Opps meant to qoute Daemoniod not you Shucklighter sorry but yeah my statement is the same and i agree with you btw Shucklighter


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 27, 2017 9:56 PM PDT
    • 1739 posts
    April 27, 2017 9:57 PM PDT

    daemonios said: ... OK, I get that some people might prefer a different style of combat. I can live with careful pulls and the like. The thing is that, as shown right now, combat seems as if it will get old, fast. I don't really see anything to keep you on your toes, nothing to react to. Just stand there and have at them, as long as the tank has aggro and adds are mezzed. The one redeeming quality that I've seen mentioned is that mobs will be susceptible to different weapons/spells in different ways, which will force you to change your rotation or even your gear/memorized spells as you get to know their strenghts and weaknesses. But with fights taking a relatively long time even with a 6-man group, I'm concerned about the ammount of time spent standing in one place pressing a couple of keys in sequence.

    Unfortunately, currently, you apparently can't change spells in combat.  So, that's.. problematic.

    • 1646 posts
    April 27, 2017 9:58 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    daemonios said: ... OK, I get that some people might prefer a different style of combat. I can live with careful pulls and the like. The thing is that, as shown right now, combat seems as if it will get old, fast. I don't really see anything to keep you on your toes, nothing to react to. Just stand there and have at them, as long as the tank has aggro and adds are mezzed. The one redeeming quality that I've seen mentioned is that mobs will be susceptible to different weapons/spells in different ways, which will force you to change your rotation or even your gear/memorized spells as you get to know their strenghts and weaknesses. But with fights taking a relatively long time even with a 6-man group, I'm concerned about the ammount of time spent standing in one place pressing a couple of keys in sequence.

    Unfortunately, currently, you apparently can't change spells in combat.  So, that's.. problematic.

    It could but it makes you think ahead of where your going, which isnt really a bad thing

    • 1739 posts
    April 27, 2017 10:21 PM PDT

    Riahuf22 said: ... It could but it makes you think ahead of where your going, which isnt really a bad thing

    Right, which is great after you've already died and learned your lesson. :)

    Ideally, you can either obtain the information you need ahead of time so you're not guaranteed to fail, or you can react instead of die or fail.

    So far, with what's been outlined, neither is possible.

    In EQ1 today, as a caster with multiple damage types, I spend quite a bit of time testing out different damage types per fight after I get a few resists.  With limited mem slots and no re-meming during fights, comparatively, in Pantheon, I would either be ~useless or far less effective.

    This adds a frustrating layer of non-challenge/annoyance the first time an encounter is beaten, and then afterward, it just goes into the database.  Ok, so.. initial annoyance?  meh?

    Using the perception system to determine damage type weaknesses either before combat or on the fly, and then permitting reaction to that information, would allow for an innovative, deep, dynamic and challenging combat system.  That does not appear to be a design goal for the moment, which is another lost opportunity, imo.

    • 707 posts
    April 27, 2017 11:13 PM PDT

    daemonios said:

    2. The issues (actually just the one issue)

    Combat mechanics. I've already said previously that combat feels a bit static to me so far. All the videos I've watched show the same "pull a few mobs but not too many, mezz a few, tank and spank the others" tactic. I fully realise there may be things going on that I'm not getting from watching the streams, but I see little action once you engage a target. I personally would prefer having to block/dodge/move away from certain attacks such as enemy AoE. I think I saw some tail swipes from the birds early in today's stream, but I didn't notice anyone evading them or if the swipes did damage other than to the tank. Speaking of tanks, I think I only ever saw him tanking one enemy at a time. Is it feasible to tank several, or would the tank be unable to sustain hate from more than one target? Are there mobs that can't be mezzed, and if so, would groups require an off-tank?

     

    I haven't read through everybody's posts so forgive me if somebody has already stated this. I don't want to say I have the same issue or concern. But what I will say is that I would LOVE to see some of the more complex and engaging combat.

    I think the problem you are having is from a few things. First, the characters and classes they are playing aren't super high levels so combat is going to be sort of simplistic during the early lower levels. Second, most of the areas they have streamed have been overland free roaming areas throughout the wilderness. Most of the harder more complex combat will be found in dungeons and caves and castles and graveyards and what not. The streams have simply been in the open area where (I don't want to say generic) but general basic mobs are found. Third, the game is still early in development so I'm sure more mechanics will be designed in the future.

    Your comment about the tanks; for most part a good group that can fight difficult content will tend to try to tank single mobs for most part. Not saying you can't tank more mobs or fight multiple mobs it's just that from my experience in Brad's games, we've always tried to push our limits and fight mobs much higher than our level, in reason of course, and that usually broke down to us tanking single mobs. This won't be like WoW or Rift or even EQ2 where the tank grabs entire groups of mobs and tanks them all down. But just because the tank is fighting one mob that doesn't mean the fight is simple. Usually the scenario goes 1 or 2 ppl are CCn other mobs, 1 person healing, another person DPSn and then possibly breaking off early to pull more mobs, another person possibly off tanking if neccessary, and others DPSn. And these are just your regular every day fights, once we get into higher levels there will be plenty of bosses with complex boss mechanics for the players to have to learn and understand in order to defeat said bosses. VG had a lot of great single group bosses with great mechanics such as Hegnerian, most of the Griffon quest bosses, etc. What I'm hoping for is even more great single group bosses.

    • 697 posts
    April 27, 2017 11:59 PM PDT

    Just some quick comments from me after watching the video:

    - magic equipment from regular mobs? -> they're playing at medium levels (25ish) and regular mobs drop items with good stats...good or bad?
    - ui overloaded? -> this may be settings but I hope the final UI will make much more use of transparency, have fewer areas of the screen obstructed etc.
    - bag ui -> this is really my new favorite after playing FFXIV: please make a single window for the whole inventory (maybe with tabs for different bags), so we don't have to sort several bag windows on the screen
    - torch in windshear climate? should not work! (after seeing Cohh running through that storm and still wearing his torch)
    - meditation animation (both sitting and standing) -> VERY nice! please keep/improve upon this!
    - shaman has no rez spell (yet? at lvl 25)? -> this is serious downer for me

    • 18 posts
    April 28, 2017 1:28 AM PDT

    I'm seriously blown away from the graphics and animation improvements. This is terrific! Great job and congrats to all the team, I can't wait!

    • 113 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:17 AM PDT

    Watched the new stream late last night.  As if I wasn't excited before, I'm now giddy with anticipation for this game.  I was shocked and thrilled with how much better the game looks since the last stream. The graphics, environments, combat animations, spell/particle effects, gameplay - all seem dramatically improved.  A couple of random comments...

    • would like to see a little less of the acclimation effects on the periphery of the screen. I'm ok with it being there but perhaps a slider to control how far it creeps into your field of vision would be great.
    • spell book - would like to see more spells per page. It's too sparse right now with too much dead space.
    • im hoping we will have the ability to control opacity with the UI elements. I know they've said the UI will be very customizable but hoping this is part of that.
    • no action RPG combat reaction elements, please.  I'm hoping for the same basic combat style EQ had - which was great.
    • i would prefer a more permanent hide/sneak/invis (at higher levels) but still with no guarantee that a higher level mob wouldn't see through it

    That's it for now.  Keep up the amazing work, VR!


    This post was edited by urgatorbait at April 28, 2017 6:17 AM PDT
    • 935 posts
    April 28, 2017 7:06 AM PDT

    Manouk said:

    I noticed a frosty frame around the UI when Cohh was running accross the bridge? I think that is a bit too "fourth wall"-ish for me. I wonder if it can be changed. 

     

    This would be a nice effect while in First Person view.  But I agree, in Third Person view it's a bit 4th wall.

    • 104 posts
    April 28, 2017 7:43 AM PDT

    Well they said theyre still tweaking difficulty and it did seem tougher than before. I do hope they do more than just pull>tank>spank and allow for more complicated larger fights. Good progress though, can tell there is still work to be done but as always its better than the last time. Animations and effects are looking better than ever minus a few distracting examples here and there.

     

    Oh and the acclimation thing was cool, not sure what to think of the mechanics to counter it... drink potions and click the UI? So its not equippable gear anymore? I thought it would be something similar to the way it works in Breath of the Wild (which btw I think this type of game can really benefit from its influence). The actual feature looks nice though, the different hazards and the on-screen effects look like they can add some significant depth to the world.


    This post was edited by Kayo at April 28, 2017 7:56 AM PDT
    • 177 posts
    April 28, 2017 8:16 AM PDT

    One specific thing I wanted to discuss: during the stream there was talk about methods of travel, and a discussion around grouping where Brad commented that you'd be able to quickly join your friends at the bottom of a dungeon. This brings up two concerns for me:

    1) Friends vs World: I understand the desire of creating ways for friends to play together. I hope that it doesn't come at the cost of the feeling/size of the world. For instance, if a one friend is playing a low level Ogre and another a low level Elf, yet they want to play together, I don't see how you reasonably facilitate this. Nor, imo, do I think you should. If they want to make the trek, and face the consequences of taking a non-friendly race to another area I'm all for that. We did it many times in EQ and dealt with all the attendant problems. It surely made the world and the cultures feel much more alive and real than any of the games that followed.

    2) Grouping Friends Quickly: I'm not sure how you create a system to allow friends to join up quickly without it being abused and making the dangers of the world frequently trivial. Whether it's fast travel or summoning a friend to the bottom of a dungeon or what have you, allowing these things as part of a system and not a class is a mistake, imo. I was fine with the way pre-Luclin/Power EQ approached this. You want fast travel? Find a druid/wizard that can get your 75% of the way there. You need to be summoned to the bottom of a dungeon? Better have a mage along with you, or someone who can drag your corpse. Want a revive? Healers ftw. Want a corpse drag/summon? Rogue/Necro/Monk/etc. Letting the player base be the solution rather than the game systems/NPCs. And if we have to make our way back to the top to pick up a friend, then so be it.

    In essence, I really hope they give the world its due and make it something we feel we're in and not just systems we're managing. Friend or not, the world should not care.


    This post was edited by Archaen at April 28, 2017 8:17 AM PDT
    • 1762 posts
    April 28, 2017 8:26 AM PDT

    Archaen said:

    One specific thing I wanted to discuss: during the stream there was talk about methods of travel, and a discussion around grouping where Brad commented that you'd be able to quickly join your friends at the bottom of a dungeon. This brings up two concerns for me:

    1) Friends vs World: I understand the desire of creating ways for friends to play together. I hope that it doesn't come at the cost of the feeling/size of the world. For instance, if a one friend is playing a low level Ogre and another a low level Elf, yet they want to play together, I don't see how you reasonably facilitate this. Nor, imo, do I think you should. If they want to make the trek, and face the consequences of taking a non-friendly race to another area I'm all for that. We did it many times in EQ and dealt with all the attendant problems. It surely made the world and the cultures feel much more alive and real than any of the games that followed.

    2) Grouping Friends Quickly: I'm not sure how you create a system to allow friends to join up quickly without it being abused and making the dangers of the world frequently trivial. Whether it's fast travel or summoning a friend to the bottom of a dungeon or what have you, allowing these things as part of a system and not a class is a mistake, imo. I was fine with the way pre-Luclin/Power EQ approached this. You want fast travel? Find a druid/wizard that can get your 75% of the way there. You need to be summoned to the bottom of a dungeon? Better have a mage along with you, or someone who can drag your corpse. Want a revive? Healers ftw. Want a corpse drag/summon? Rogue/Necro/Monk/etc. Letting the player base be the solution rather than the game systems/NPCs. And if we have to make our way back to the top to pick up a friend, then so be it.

    In essence, I really hope they give the world its due and make it something we feel we're in and not just systems we're managing. Friend or not, the world should not care.

     

    Great posted, you nailed it. These are discouraging things to hear. There shouldn't be a game mechanic for trivializing the danger and time investment of learning a dungeon and making your way through it. If you didn't get online in time to make it down with your friends, that's too bad, that's life. Have them fight/port out and fight back in with you. Drag/res, like you said. Get COTHed, but have it be done via gameplay mechanics specific to a class ability or skill. Or create dynamics like the Tower of Frozen Shadow where you had to key up at each level but once you had the master key, could enter and go to any level of the tower. That was cool. But please don't have some fake mechanic that just warps people to each other. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at April 28, 2017 8:33 AM PDT
    • 12 posts
    April 28, 2017 8:46 AM PDT

    I'm a huge fan of the combat, as it stands.  The character level of Cohh was 25?, I believe.  It's logical to assume that NPC AI, and difficulty, will increase substantially from the halfway point to level cap (assuming a level 50 cap).  The player attack combinations that build off of each other are very much like Vanguard; I assume the threat generation abilities for the warrior will be the same, where Shield Bash A -> Shield Slam B -> Shield Gouge C would increase damage, and threat generated, if they were triggered off of each other as combinations instead of independently.  Lots of assumptions, yes, but based on the current progress of the game, and the level of players and creatures being showcased, it's all pretty natural progression from there.  Really like the prospect of CC requirement if you don't want to get smooshed by 3 mobs.  The idea of another "PULL THEM ALL AND AE AE AE" combat system is nauseating/boring.

    I *KIND OF* like the acclimation system; big fan of there being repercussions for entering hostile environments.  I think I would prefer the acclimations being short term, however.  Alchemichal crafting applications would be a great thing, IMO; perhaps make crafted versions short-term, whereas a permanent version is only end-zone/raid boss/major quest reward.  

    Players dying and their gear remaining on their corpse, and then they pop up in the zone they died in? Not at a bind point near a bank, where they can potentially gear up out of secondary/saved gear to go get their stuff? lol.  I find that part amusing.  Works great in outdoor zones, I guess, but dungeon?  I hope the duration on corpses is... substantial.  Can't wait to see it in action.  

    Honestly, really stoked about what I'm seeing.  I don't have the time to play that I once had (20 hrs a week now vs 40-50 at EQ release), but these sorts of things are definitely what I've been looking for in an MMO since around 2005.  

    • 1762 posts
    April 28, 2017 8:59 AM PDT

    Blinkor said:

    Players dying and their gear remaining on their corpse, and then they pop up in the zone they died in? Not at a bind point near a bank, where they can potentially gear up out of secondary/saved gear to go get their stuff? lol.  I find that part amusing.  Works great in outdoor zones, I guess, but dungeon?  I hope the duration on corpses is... substantial.  Can't wait to see it in action.  

     

    Could easily give the player a choice. Return to zone in or return to bind. 

    • 12 posts
    April 28, 2017 9:15 AM PDT

    Oh, absolutely.  I just loved it as it was presented in the stream.  

    • 1762 posts
    April 28, 2017 9:22 AM PDT

    Blinkor said:

    Oh, absolutely.  I just loved it as it was presented in the stream.  

     

    I think it's cheese :)

    I think there should be hard to reach areas that have good loot. And if you die it takes more time to get back there, because the reward is greater. Maybe the exp bonus is higher. You can choose to play it safe for maybe less reward, or you can go big and risk loss. If you simply respawn in the zone, what I described is completely marginalized. There are other ways to do risk/reward, but this takes away one of them. 

    • 79 posts
    April 28, 2017 9:26 AM PDT

     

    I see nothing wrong with the combat, the reason why I've invested in Pantheon is the combat itself. If it's going to turn into something like every other MMO I'd be greatly disappointed. I believe MMORPGs should not be perceived as a combat game where combat keeps you busy and takes all of your brain tasks. I believe in order to have a successful MMORPG, we need to have a slower paced combat (slow but tactical/strategic) in order to be able to communicate/chat once in a while through our adventures. If you worry that combat would be boring then you're looking at it the wrong way. No matter how you exciting you make the combat, in the nature of MMORPGs? people will eventually get bored and leave. How many players I've heard leaving games with active combat system because it slowly turned into something tedious and tasking. Remember this is an MMORPG where it's designed to lasts you thousands and thousands of hours.

     

    The last thing I want is where the combat turns into this whack-a-mole system where I have to look at my action bar most of my play time. I don't want to juggle flashing icons, I want to strategically approach a situation and overcome it. Who said this combat is easy or not exciting? It is exciting, maybe it's not the best combat to look at but those who have played something similar (EQ) know exactly how much fun those guys are having during those "Ooooh crap" moments they frequently get. With better players they can avoid the deaths the dev-team have sustained, so being better at it is always a thing in this kind of combat (though I know the devs/Cohh were busy talking/explaining the system than playing).

     

     

    • 2975 posts
    April 28, 2017 9:50 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    Blinkor said:

    Oh, absolutely.  I just loved it as it was presented in the stream.  

     

    I think it's cheese :)

    I think there should be hard to reach areas that have good loot. And if you die it takes more time to get back there, because the reward is greater. Maybe the exp bonus is higher. You can choose to play it safe for maybe less reward, or you can go big and risk loss. If you simply respawn in the zone, what I described is completely marginalized. There are other ways to do risk/reward, but this takes away one of them. 

     

    I am fairly certain they only spawn in the same zone due to it being alpha and for testing purposes. 

    • 420 posts
    April 28, 2017 9:52 AM PDT

    To those commenting about the feel, pace, and difficulty of combat - I think there are a number things that should really be considered before coming to any conclusions here.

    1) Combat mechanics are not at a finished state. What's there seems great (to me), but there is yet time for more.

    2) Much of what is going on is not necessarily seen or is difficult to infer from what occurs on the stream.

    3) Take a second and look at gameplay videos from other MMOs (ones you've played). Even the most intense nail-biting MMO raid encounter doesn't really translate well through recorded video.

    • 4530 posts
    April 28, 2017 10:00 AM PDT

    Ainadak said:

    To those commenting about the feel, pace, and difficulty of combat - I think there are a number things that should really be considered before coming to any conclusions here.

    1) Combat mechanics are not at a finished state. What's there seems great (to me), but there is yet time for more.

    2) Much of what is going on is not necessarily seen or is difficult to infer from what occurs on the stream.

    3) Take a second and look at gameplay videos from other MMOs (ones you've played). Even the most intense nail-biting MMO raid encounter doesn't really translate well through recorded video.

    Yup. Not to mention the fact that Pantheon never claimed to have an action combat system. Strategy is much more important than keeping a fast pace. Like chess, it's way more interesting when you're the one actually thinking and playing rather than just watching. You may say it looks easy until you're face-to-face with a grandmaster.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 28, 2017 10:00 AM PDT
    • 615 posts
    April 28, 2017 10:17 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    Fluffy said:

    I love the combat the way it is. It demands involvement and positioning.Going over some tactics before engaging as you have a chance an alarmist will call the whole camp on you.

    Also Meldor makes an excellent point about the focus shift from individual to an awarenes of the surroundings and friends actions. So in my opinion they are on the right track when it comes to combat mechanics


    It seems cookie cutter.

    On the contrary.With the introduction of mobs with different behavior,like the alarmist. You have to be on the tip of your toes .
    Combat might be slower than most MMOs and things can turn ugly quickly when you are not paying attention.
    Together with the different mob types ,you'll encounter plenty of different situations where the same approach will not always work.
    So a cookie-cutter approach will not work. What has a cookie-cutter approach are many of the other MMOs where only certain rotations are accepted as viable.
    At least with this kind of combat we can get creative.
    I've thought long and hard about the combat before I came on board with this game
    And just like @Laura I'd be greatly disappointed if they'd turn it into something like every MMO

     

    As Bazgrim points out,Strategy is much more important than keeping fast pace,like chess.


    This post was edited by Fluffy at April 28, 2017 10:17 AM PDT
    • 1762 posts
    April 28, 2017 10:28 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    Krixus said:

    Fluffy said:

    I love the combat the way it is. It demands involvement and positioning.Going over some tactics before engaging as you have a chance an alarmist will call the whole camp on you.

    Also Meldor makes an excellent point about the focus shift from individual to an awarenes of the surroundings and friends actions. So in my opinion they are on the right track when it comes to combat mechanics


    It seems cookie cutter.

    On the contrary.With the introduction of mobs with different behavior,like the alarmist. You have to be on the tip of your toes .
    Combat might be slower than most MMOs and things can turn ugly quickly when you are not paying attention.
    Together with the different mob types ,you'll encounter plenty of different situations where the same approach will not always work.
    So a cookie-cutter approach will not work. What has a cookie-cutter approach are many of the other MMOs where only certain rotations are accepted as viable.
    At least with this kind of combat we can get creative.
    I've thought long and hard about the combat before I came on board with this game
    And just like @Laura I'd be greatly disappointed if they'd turn it into something like every MMO

     

    As Bazgrim points out,Strategy is much more important than keeping fast pace,like chess.

    I didn't say it was bad, but we're acting like identifying that a mob will run and get help is some kind of amazing new dynamic. Making us pay attention is good. 

    Like chess? Um, competitive chess is extremely fast paced. Your biggest enemy is sometimes the clock. 

    • 21 posts
    April 28, 2017 10:56 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    competitive chess is extremely fast paced. 

     

    I think that highlights the main difference in how people see Pantheon.  One could see it like a PVP game that leans towards a more action crowd.  The other sees it as an extension of a D&D game which tends to be about cooperation working against an enemy/challenge in an immersive world.  That cooperation is generally (not always) slower paced than a PVP game.

    Both playstyles are valid, but considering EQ (which was inspired to bring the D&D tabletop into the online world) is the soul of this game I don't see the game going action/fast paced.  I do think the animations will get better, but the foundation of what you are seeing will not go away.

     


    This post was edited by quietus at April 28, 2017 10:56 AM PDT
    • 1762 posts
    April 28, 2017 11:00 AM PDT

    quietus said:

    Krixus said:

    competitive chess is extremely fast paced. 

     

    I think that highlights the main difference in how people see Pantheon.  One could see it like a PVP game that leans towards a more action crowd.  The other sees it as an extension of a D&D game which tends to be about cooperation working against an enemy/challenge in an immersive world.  That cooperation is generally (not always) slower paced than a PVP game.

    Both playstyles are valid, but considering EQ (which was inspired to bring the D&D tabletop into the online world) is the soul of this game I don't see the game going action/fast paced.  I do think the animations will get better, but the foundation of what you are seeing will not go away.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I'm FIRMLY in the 3d mud/tabletop  camp. The last thing I want to see in combat is fast twitch button mashing. I already think the classes have too many skills available to them at such low level. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at April 28, 2017 11:01 AM PDT
    • 77 posts
    April 28, 2017 11:18 AM PDT

    The 1.5 - 2 second global cooldown seemed sufficient to keep you busy without jamming on your keyboard constantly. I like that it seems far more complex than EQ's combat, I feel EQ was way too slow and simple to enjoy only playing a single character in. I guess I am more in the camp of wanting to stay active in combat instead of only pressing 1 or 2 buttons every 10 seconds.