Amsai said:@Larirawiel
I have to say I kinda like it if normal mobs are extremely strong. They dont need to be crazy over the top hard. But I have no problem for instance if a melee mob of the same level gets a hold of cloth wearer and 1 or 2 shots them.
Its a dangerous world. Step up or stay home! LOL Well thats my opinion, and just that.
Yes, please keep mobs this strong or stronger.
Amsai said:@Larirawiel
I have to say I kinda like it if normal mobs are extremely strong. They dont need to be crazy over the top hard. But I have no problem for instance if a melee mob of the same level gets a hold of cloth wearer and 1 or 2 shots them.
Its a dangerous world. Step up or stay home! LOL Well thats my opinion, and just that.
I can understand, that people want hard enemies and a dangerous world. But i have looked on the numbers in this video. Kilsin has 491 HP, you can see it at 1:10:30. The enemies have roughly 3.500 HP. You can see the combat log an you can sum up the numbers. Then the enemies hit mostly for >50 damage with melee attacks. If you take the average numbers of the player melee attacks then you will get ~19 damage per hit.
If you combine both numbers then you have standard mobs that outnumber the players by a factor of 15+. And sorry, but in my eyes this is a huge immersion breaker having a large number of standard enemies that are 15 times stronger than me. With such huge discrepancies you could get the same effect why the current WoW Legion is not immersive because of such ridiculous numbers.
Greetings
Amsai said: ... But I have no problem for instance if a melee mob of the same level gets a hold of cloth wearer and 1 or 2 shots them. ...
This, coupled with an overly punitive death penalty, would certainly be a great way to prevent anyone from playing a cloth wearing class.
Larirawiel said:I can understand, that people want hard enemies and a dangerous world. But i have looked on the numbers in this video. Kilsin has 491 HP, you can see it at 1:10:30. The enemies have roughly 3.500 HP. You can see the combat log an you can sum up the numbers. Then the enemies hit mostly for >50 damage with melee attacks. If you take the average numbers of the player melee attacks then you will get ~19 damage per hit.
If you combine both numbers then you have standard mobs that outnumber the players by a factor of 15+. And sorry, but in my eyes this is a huge immersion breaker having a large number of standard enemies that are 15 times stronger than me. With such huge discrepancies you could get the same effect why the current WoW Legion is not immersive because of such ridiculous numbers.
Greetings
Great perception with the numbers!
But, really, this is what a community oriented gaming is all about; teaming up to tackle content. Most content is being designed with grouping in mind. Those numbers are very similar to EQ at level 25 before twinking was a thing. You relied on your tanks to have high enough AC and aggro generation to keep everyone alive without draining your healers mana every fight. You relied on paper DPS to not autoburn everything and keep things moving along; everyone in the group was important when everything is 15x stronger than you. Challenge + Content= Community.
I see nothing wrong with your assessment of the numbers and look forward to grouping this area with you when we are finally given the keys! =D
one thing I noticed, also ties into what Larirawiel saying. The NPCs are very strong, and they in itself isn't a bad thing. but just using Brad's group as an example.
They didn't have a RESS spell, they cheated and ressed players back for the stream. which they should have done, since it was a limited time on the stream.
BUT. If anyone would have died and had to run back to that corpse Naked, I don't see any way possible they would have made it back alive. Guess we'll see any be able to give some feedback in pre alpha and alpha on what that's like In game.
There were a LOT of Powerful mobs all over the place, again, a good thing, but it looked like every single one of them were KOS. Every single mob being KOS isn't a good thing.
Sure hope there is was changes to the balance of KOS vs Non KOS mobs.
Yeah this is a group game, the individual hits may be around 19 for the melee but 4 players on average are hitting the mob. And I bet the spells from the wizard are hitting a lot harder than 19 damage. In fact the wizard was hitting for around 188, with one spell that hit above 300 damage.
Naim said:one thing I noticed, also ties into what Larirawiel saying. The NPCs are very strong, and they in itself isn't a bad thing. but just using Brad's group as an example.
They didn't have a RESS spell, they cheated and ressed players back for the stream. which they should have done, since it was a limited time on the stream.
BUT. If anyone would have died and had to run back to that corpse Naked, I don't see any way possible they would have made it back alive. Guess we'll see any be able to give some feedback in pre alpha and alpha on what that's like In game.
True, but they were also playing very distracted and just trying to show some things off/answer questions. They probably also had no fears of dying/messing up since none of it mattered. Was everything KoS? I don't recall the scorpions or cockatrice's aggroing, I thought they were all pulled?
Iksar said:Yeah this is a group game, the individual hits may be around 19 for the melee but 4 players on average are hitting the mob. And I bet the spells from the wizard are hitting a lot harder than 19 damage. In fact the wizard was hitting for around 188, with one spell that hit above 300 damage.
Naim said:one thing I noticed, also ties into what Larirawiel saying. The NPCs are very strong, and they in itself isn't a bad thing. but just using Brad's group as an example.
They didn't have a RESS spell, they cheated and ressed players back for the stream. which they should have done, since it was a limited time on the stream.
BUT. If anyone would have died and had to run back to that corpse Naked, I don't see any way possible they would have made it back alive. Guess we'll see any be able to give some feedback in pre alpha and alpha on what that's like In game.
True, but they were also playing very distracted and just trying to show some things off/answer questions. They probably also had no fears of dying/messing up since none of it mattered. Was everything KoS? I don't recall the scorpions or cockatrice's aggroing, I thought they were all pulled?
Only the wisps were non-aggro. And I AOEd the one that attacked us. Everything else was KoS. Including scorpions and the chicke--cockatrices. We tried to pull them knowing they would aggro on us and take a bite out of me or Joppa when we weren't expecting them otherwise.
The animations and graphics were the biggest thing that jumped out at me.
One thing we should all consider when judging how the game plays is that even though these people are the devs, they are not neccesarily good players. Get these toons in the hands of some hardcore players and give them time to perfect mechanics and stratgies and that stream looks considerably different.
In what ways? I don't know, but I do know these guys have way more to consider while streaming than playing efficiently and at a high level.
Destron said:One thing we should all consider when judging how the game plays is that even though these people are the devs, they are not neccesarily good players. Get these toons in the hands of some hardcore players and give them time to perfect mechanics and stratgies and that stream looks considerably different.
Yes and no. These guys are gamers themselves. They have all been playing MMOs for many years. That's part of how they get inspiration for their own game. But more importantly, they all regularly play Pantheon for their own internal testing. They don't just sit and code all day. They are constantly playing Pantheon to make sure everything is working and balanced before moving onto programming the next thing. In the last stream, they said the main reason why they were struggling tactically was because they were answering questions pretty much non-stop. That takes up quite a bit of brainpower to think about how to answer people's questions, which would take away from anyone's ability to play the game well.
Larirawiel said:Amsai said:@Larirawiel
I have to say I kinda like it if normal mobs are extremely strong. They dont need to be crazy over the top hard. But I have no problem for instance if a melee mob of the same level gets a hold of cloth wearer and 1 or 2 shots them.
Its a dangerous world. Step up or stay home! LOL Well thats my opinion, and just that.
I can understand, that people want hard enemies and a dangerous world. But i have looked on the numbers in this video. Kilsin has 491 HP, you can see it at 1:10:30. The enemies have roughly 3.500 HP. You can see the combat log an you can sum up the numbers. Then the enemies hit mostly for >50 damage with melee attacks. If you take the average numbers of the player melee attacks then you will get ~19 damage per hit.
If you combine both numbers then you have standard mobs that outnumber the players by a factor of 15+. And sorry, but in my eyes this is a huge immersion breaker having a large number of standard enemies that are 15 times stronger than me. With such huge discrepancies you could get the same effect why the current WoW Legion is not immersive because of such ridiculous numbers.
Greetings
Your concern is valid, but I'm sure this will all be tuned heavily. The raw numbers are less important(if at all) compared to the feel of the gameplay. I actually think they have it tuned pretty well already, obviously there's room for improvement.
Destron said:The animations and graphics were the biggest thing that jumped out at me.
One thing we should all consider when judging how the game plays is that even though these people are the devs, they are not neccesarily good players. Get these toons in the hands of some hardcore players and give them time to perfect mechanics and stratgies and that stream looks considerably different.
In what ways? I don't know, but I do know these guys have way more to consider while streaming than playing efficiently and at a high level.
It's a little embarrassing at times, actually. Some of them are awful, although they've gotten better.
Hello, I greatly appreciated the stream, here are some specific points :
I loved the spell effects, they are exactly as it should, not too flashy, not too explosive, they are perfect. I'm a bit fed up of games in which a single punch gives the impression that an atomic bomb was dropped on the enemy for a ridiculous amount of damages.
The combats are exactly what I like : tactics and strategy instead of a flood of action and skill spam. So good to see again technical pull made by a monk with FD, and the management of the pack of mobs not all tanked by the MT. I think the combats are more 'readable' than in recent MMOs, less action, more reflection and that's what I look for.
The animations got a pretty nice upgrade, and I liked the way armors looked. I specificaly looked at Bard's armor and weapons, the light and the details are very very nice, great work on this part.
The AI of mobs is ok, it's very close of the current standards I'd say, it requires to be tested in different situations to get a better opinion.
I'm looking forward to the tomorow stream :).
Larr said:Larirawiel said:I can understand, that people want hard enemies and a dangerous world. But i have looked on the numbers in this video. Kilsin has 491 HP, you can see it at 1:10:30. The enemies have roughly 3.500 HP. You can see the combat log an you can sum up the numbers. Then the enemies hit mostly for >50 damage with melee attacks. If you take the average numbers of the player melee attacks then you will get ~19 damage per hit.
If you combine both numbers then you have standard mobs that outnumber the players by a factor of 15+. And sorry, but in my eyes this is a huge immersion breaker having a large number of standard enemies that are 15 times stronger than me. With such huge discrepancies you could get the same effect why the current WoW Legion is not immersive because of such ridiculous numbers.
Greetings
Great perception with the numbers!
But, really, this is what a community oriented gaming is all about; teaming up to tackle content. Most content is being designed with grouping in mind. Those numbers are very similar to EQ at level 25 before twinking was a thing. You relied on your tanks to have high enough AC and aggro generation to keep everyone alive without draining your healers mana every fight. You relied on paper DPS to not autoburn everything and keep things moving along; everyone in the group was important when everything is 15x stronger than you. Challenge + Content= Community.
I see nothing wrong with your assessment of the numbers and look forward to grouping this area with you when we are finally given the keys! =D
Right, they are a lot stronger than us, they are suppose to be that why it encourages grping up and tackling powerful content together. Also with the mobs hitting hard i like the way they had in on the stream where when the wizard took aggro she didn't last very long, it makes you pay attention and not just shoot multiple spells and destroy everything without taking aggro and getting completely wrecked in the process. And it isn't going to stop people from playing a caster class it going to expect them to play smarter.
Larirawiel said:Amsai said:@Larirawiel
I have to say I kinda like it if normal mobs are extremely strong. They dont need to be crazy over the top hard. But I have no problem for instance if a melee mob of the same level gets a hold of cloth wearer and 1 or 2 shots them.
Its a dangerous world. Step up or stay home! LOL Well thats my opinion, and just that.
I can understand, that people want hard enemies and a dangerous world. But i have looked on the numbers in this video. Kilsin has 491 HP, you can see it at 1:10:30. The enemies have roughly 3.500 HP. You can see the combat log an you can sum up the numbers. Then the enemies hit mostly for >50 damage with melee attacks. If you take the average numbers of the player melee attacks then you will get ~19 damage per hit.
If you combine both numbers then you have standard mobs that outnumber the players by a factor of 15+. And sorry, but in my eyes this is a huge immersion breaker having a large number of standard enemies that are 15 times stronger than me. With such huge discrepancies you could get the same effect why the current WoW Legion is not immersive because of such ridiculous numbers.
Greetings
I see your WoW avatar and I am not sure if WoW was your first MMO. One of the big things I hate with WoW style mobs is the fact you only get to hit them maybe once in a team and you are moving on. I have 50 skills where is the fun in that? I want time to use a few skills in a team. I hope they keep the combat speed right where it is.
Riahuf22 said: ... Also with the mobs hitting hard i like the way they had in on the stream where when the wizard took aggro she didn't last very long, it makes you pay attention and not just shoot multiple spells and destroy everything without taking aggro and getting completely wrecked in the process. And it isn't going to stop people from playing a caster class it going to expect them to play smarter.
If it's overly punitive, it will stop people from considering that class as a positive option or reasonable choice.
Speaking as someone who has played cloth wearing DPS classes for years in many MMO's, EQ1 included, "playing smarter" often translates into: Don't cast until the monster is at half health or less. You know what else that is? Often, very tedious, especially when many other players perceive it as inattention, when it is actually self preservation.
"Why aren't you attacking/casting?"
"Because I'll die if I do".
" What? How can that be?"
"Because this tank isn't taunting".
Personally? It got to the point where the only tanks I would starting casting with at 75% health were stunning Paladins, because only they could maintain aggro/threat, if I wanted to seriously contribute to some PUGs.
To address this issue somewhat, wizards, necromancers and enchanters where given runes in EQ1, and they worked great. The Wizard Epic 1.0 has a clicky rune. It was essentially a bit of forgiveness if your tank wasn't paying attention, or you got a triple rain crit. Over time they were also given AA's to inherently reduce their threat generation, given it was so high.
You may want to have a look at Zynxs explanatory post here for more details about Wizard threat/aggro in the recent stream. Having all your DPS dead because they die every time they crit, or die every time they actually hit the mob is not ideal. There is a balance to be found, and you can't DPS if you're dead. If you cast once and die, no matter how much the tank is taunting, that would be a very bad implementation.
Similarly, if there is no actual advantage to having big nukers in the group, then that's a very bad implementation as well.
Put another way, if the caster is doing everything right, and performing their role, and be patient, and casting all their reactives if/when they do rarely get aggro, yet die all the time? That's not ideal, so hopefully there is some forgiveness in place, otherwise... those classes will less popular to play and less desirable in groups.
Larr said:Larirawiel said:I can understand, that people want hard enemies and a dangerous world. But i have looked on the numbers in this video. Kilsin has 491 HP, you can see it at 1:10:30. The enemies have roughly 3.500 HP. You can see the combat log an you can sum up the numbers. Then the enemies hit mostly for >50 damage with melee attacks. If you take the average numbers of the player melee attacks then you will get ~19 damage per hit.
If you combine both numbers then you have standard mobs that outnumber the players by a factor of 15+. And sorry, but in my eyes this is a huge immersion breaker having a large number of standard enemies that are 15 times stronger than me. With such huge discrepancies you could get the same effect why the current WoW Legion is not immersive because of such ridiculous numbers.
Greetings
Great perception with the numbers!
But, really, this is what a community oriented gaming is all about; teaming up to tackle content. Most content is being designed with grouping in mind. Those numbers are very similar to EQ at level 25 before twinking was a thing. You relied on your tanks to have high enough AC and aggro generation to keep everyone alive without draining your healers mana every fight. You relied on paper DPS to not autoburn everything and keep things moving along; everyone in the group was important when everything is 15x stronger than you. Challenge + Content= Community.
I see nothing wrong with your assessment of the numbers and look forward to grouping this area with you when we are finally given the keys! =D
Those numbers aren't similar though. Granted there will be pre alpha, alpha, beta, open beta to git it all right.
Level 25 mobs in Everquest had around 1200 to 1500hp, players had more like 600 to 800hp (non twink).
Mob HP relative to player HP was relatively similar until the mobs were around level 35 to 40.
Sunmistress said:Those numbers aren't similar though. Granted there will be pre alpha, alpha, beta, open beta to git it all right.
Level 25 mobs in Everquest had around 1200 to 1500hp, players had more like 600 to 800hp (non twink).
Mob HP relative to player HP was relatively similar until the mobs were around level 35 to 40.
It was less than that. The average level 25 mob in EQ had around 850 hp and tanks had roughly 700 hp unbuffed/twinked, casters had considerably less.
vjek said:If it's overly punitive, it will stop people from considering that class as a positive option or reasonable choice.
Speaking as someone who has played cloth wearing DPS classes for years in many MMO's, EQ1 included, "playing smarter" often translates into: Don't cast until the monster is at half health or less. You know what else that is? Often, very tedious, especially when many other players perceive it as inattention, when it is actually self preservation.
"Why aren't you attacking/casting?"
"Because I'll die if I do".
" What? How can that be?"
"Because this tank isn't taunting".
Personally? It got to the point where the only tanks I would starting casting with at 75% health were stunning Paladins, because only they could maintain aggro/threat, if I wanted to seriously contribute to some PUGs.
....
Errrr... you say you played a mage in EQ (or at least a cloth wearer) where it was established you... sit down until mob is at 30% and stand up, boom, boom, sit down and med :P ... that was the class... you didn't do a lot of continuous damage, you loaded a lot of damage in a short space of time - it wasn't about you being 100% efficient 100% of the time- it was about the group being 100% efficient.
Having soft squishy targets that die easily is great. One of the huge issues in WoW is that the DPS are self-centred because they don't have to be group focused.. they can just burst 95% of the time. The mage in that stream caught aggro waaaay too often and suffered the consequences.
Having the content being hard means that everyone has to work together as a group instead of being 6 random individuals that just rush through everything.
While numbers can certainly be tweaked, that overall feeling you saw is important for what Pantheon seeks to bring back - and along with that brings back the concept that overall group rhythm is best vs speed that a group can burst something down... Needing CC or else group wipes, needing DPS to be switched on and manage aggro (same with healer).. the tension when extra mobs come in being a BIG threat is sooo important. Everyone has to work together to make a group as smooth as possible, rather than as fast as possible.
Minimising the amount of healing a healer needs to do (thus conserving their mana) means the group can keep going for longer before medding, so thats why rhythm ultimately is more efficient than how fast you can kill stuff.
vjek said:Riahuf22 said: ... Also with the mobs hitting hard i like the way they had in on the stream where when the wizard took aggro she didn't last very long, it makes you pay attention and not just shoot multiple spells and destroy everything without taking aggro and getting completely wrecked in the process. And it isn't going to stop people from playing a caster class it going to expect them to play smarter.If it's overly punitive, it will stop people from considering that class as a positive option or reasonable choice.
Speaking as someone who has played cloth wearing DPS classes for years in many MMO's, EQ1 included, "playing smarter" often translates into: Don't cast until the monster is at half health or less. You know what else that is? Often, very tedious, especially when many other players perceive it as inattention, when it is actually self preservation.
"Why aren't you attacking/casting?"
"Because I'll die if I do".
" What? How can that be?"
"Because this tank isn't taunting".
Personally? It got to the point where the only tanks I would starting casting with at 75% health were stunning Paladins, because only they could maintain aggro/threat, if I wanted to seriously contribute to some PUGs.To address this issue somewhat, wizards, necromancers and enchanters where given runes in EQ1, and they worked great. The Wizard Epic 1.0 has a clicky rune. It was essentially a bit of forgiveness if your tank wasn't paying attention, or you got a triple rain crit. Over time they were also given AA's to inherently reduce their threat generation, given it was so high.
You may want to have a look at Zynxs explanatory post here for more details about Wizard threat/aggro in the recent stream. Having all your DPS dead because they die every time they crit, or die every time they actually hit the mob is not ideal. There is a balance to be found, and you can't DPS if you're dead. If you cast once and die, no matter how much the tank is taunting, that would be a very bad implementation.
Similarly, if there is no actual advantage to having big nukers in the group, then that's a very bad implementation as well.Put another way, if the caster is doing everything right, and performing their role, and be patient, and casting all their reactives if/when they do rarely get aggro, yet die all the time? That's not ideal, so hopefully there is some forgiveness in place, otherwise... those classes will less popular to play and less desirable in groups.
Some threat tweaking to be done, for sure. However, I would hate to see this go to the opposite extreme, which is what we've seen in nearly every other MMO, where all classes are able to lay down maximum dps at all times. And if they pull threat? The tank was lazy/undergeared/terribad. Waiting to cast until the mob is at 50% is obviously not acceptable class design, however this was usually not the case in EQ unless you were wanting to open with your biggest nuke.
This is whole subject is highly related to my post made about a year and half ago on the wizard forums, in case you guys havent seen it: http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2199/great-power-brings-great-responsibility
The concerns about aggro and damage numbers based on what EQ was like is a little silly.
Paladins/SK's had no problem holding aggro over casters. Warriors did because until quite later in the game they relied solely on weapon procs and taunt to hold aggro. I think it's safe to assume that Pantheon will give all tanks more reliable threat tools compared to Warriors from Original through PoP.
But the spirit of this discussion is still the same, most people here would prefer a game where you have to think about the spells you use. Be aware of group dynamics, this isn't a go all out DPS style game.
vjek said:Riahuf22 said: ... Also with the mobs hitting hard i like the way they had in on the stream where when the wizard took aggro she didn't last very long, it makes you pay attention and not just shoot multiple spells and destroy everything without taking aggro and getting completely wrecked in the process. And it isn't going to stop people from playing a caster class it going to expect them to play smarter.If it's overly punitive, it will stop people from considering that class as a positive option or reasonable choice.
Speaking as someone who has played cloth wearing DPS classes for years in many MMO's, EQ1 included, "playing smarter" often translates into: Don't cast until the monster is at half health or less. You know what else that is? Often, very tedious, especially when many other players perceive it as inattention, when it is actually self preservation.
"Why aren't you attacking/casting?"
"Because I'll die if I do".
" What? How can that be?"
"Because this tank isn't taunting".
Personally? It got to the point where the only tanks I would starting casting with at 75% health were stunning Paladins, because only they could maintain aggro/threat, if I wanted to seriously contribute to some PUGs.To address this issue somewhat, wizards, necromancers and enchanters where given runes in EQ1, and they worked great. The Wizard Epic 1.0 has a clicky rune. It was essentially a bit of forgiveness if your tank wasn't paying attention, or you got a triple rain crit. Over time they were also given AA's to inherently reduce their threat generation, given it was so high.
You may want to have a look at Zynxs explanatory post here for more details about Wizard threat/aggro in the recent stream. Having all your DPS dead because they die every time they crit, or die every time they actually hit the mob is not ideal. There is a balance to be found, and you can't DPS if you're dead. If you cast once and die, no matter how much the tank is taunting, that would be a very bad implementation.
Similarly, if there is no actual advantage to having big nukers in the group, then that's a very bad implementation as well.Put another way, if the caster is doing everything right, and performing their role, and be patient, and casting all their reactives if/when they do rarely get aggro, yet die all the time? That's not ideal, so hopefully there is some forgiveness in place, otherwise... those classes will less popular to play and less desirable in groups.
So because you played with people who were bad at the game you want them to tune aggro?
I mean...I'm sure there's tuning to be done, but your example to me indicates the exact opposite. You gave the argument for how a game was tuned in an excellent way. YOU actually needed SOMEONE ELSE to play well, before you could play your class to the fullest extent. That's AWESOME BALANCE.
Dekaden said:vjek said:Riahuf22 said: ... Also with the mobs hitting hard i like the way they had in on the stream where when the wizard took aggro she didn't last very long, it makes you pay attention and not just shoot multiple spells and destroy everything without taking aggro and getting completely wrecked in the process. And it isn't going to stop people from playing a caster class it going to expect them to play smarter.If it's overly punitive, it will stop people from considering that class as a positive option or reasonable choice.
Speaking as someone who has played cloth wearing DPS classes for years in many MMO's, EQ1 included, "playing smarter" often translates into: Don't cast until the monster is at half health or less. You know what else that is? Often, very tedious, especially when many other players perceive it as inattention, when it is actually self preservation.
"Why aren't you attacking/casting?"
"Because I'll die if I do".
" What? How can that be?"
"Because this tank isn't taunting".
Personally? It got to the point where the only tanks I would starting casting with at 75% health were stunning Paladins, because only they could maintain aggro/threat, if I wanted to seriously contribute to some PUGs.To address this issue somewhat, wizards, necromancers and enchanters where given runes in EQ1, and they worked great. The Wizard Epic 1.0 has a clicky rune. It was essentially a bit of forgiveness if your tank wasn't paying attention, or you got a triple rain crit. Over time they were also given AA's to inherently reduce their threat generation, given it was so high.
You may want to have a look at Zynxs explanatory post here for more details about Wizard threat/aggro in the recent stream. Having all your DPS dead because they die every time they crit, or die every time they actually hit the mob is not ideal. There is a balance to be found, and you can't DPS if you're dead. If you cast once and die, no matter how much the tank is taunting, that would be a very bad implementation.
Similarly, if there is no actual advantage to having big nukers in the group, then that's a very bad implementation as well.Put another way, if the caster is doing everything right, and performing their role, and be patient, and casting all their reactives if/when they do rarely get aggro, yet die all the time? That's not ideal, so hopefully there is some forgiveness in place, otherwise... those classes will less popular to play and less desirable in groups.
Some threat tweaking to be done, for sure. However, I would hate to see this go to the opposite extreme, which is what we've seen in nearly every other MMO, where all classes are able to lay down maximum dps at all times. And if they pull threat? The tank was lazy/undergeared/terribad. Waiting to cast until the mob is at 50% is obviously not acceptable class design, however this was usually not the case in EQ unless you were wanting to open with your biggest nuke.
This is whole subject is highly related to my post made about a year and half ago on the wizard forums, in case you guys havent seen it: http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2199/great-power-brings-great-responsibility
Your right I played a warrior all the time in most of my games and never did any class have to wait til 50% health to start doing some damage, granted im not talking WoW type spamming damage but damage all the same. if you role a wizard and think once he gets in contact with it you can start casting a nuke that is a flaw on your side of things. they normally take time especially on EQ1, but i can also say that once my warrior does dame for like 5 seconds you can start nuking at a "steady" pace and know you are okay. and i can say tanking being a bit easier with the fact of you being able to use hotbar skills that warrior didnt have in EQ1 or maybe some of these concerns you are talking about might be taken care of, but i believe if a wizard takes aggro and are suppose to be a range charcter with cloth armor on and get stuck in a close combat situation your going to get wrecked im sorry it only make sense, which is why even in EQ1 they havent changed this it would be simply wizard takes aggro on a hard target and bam no more wizard.
Nanfoodle said:I see your WoW avatar and I am not sure if WoW was your first MMO. One of the big things I hate with WoW style mobs is the fact you only get to hit them maybe once in a team and you are moving on. I have 50 skills where is the fun in that? I want time to use a few skills in a team. I hope they keep the combat speed right where it is.
True. But it feels very wrong to me having human enemies that are 15 times stronger than the human players. I can understand when other creatures like bears or tigers or big trolls are much stronger than a player but not standard human mobs. Either the game has a good explanation for this huge discrepancy. Or the developers should imho increase the difficulty of such human mobs without giving them super hero powers. There are many other ways to do it. They could link much more mobs and the mobs could have classes like healers or cc'lers too.
Greeting
Larirawiel said:Nanfoodle said:I see your WoW avatar and I am not sure if WoW was your first MMO. One of the big things I hate with WoW style mobs is the fact you only get to hit them maybe once in a team and you are moving on. I have 50 skills where is the fun in that? I want time to use a few skills in a team. I hope they keep the combat speed right where it is.
True. But it feels very wrong to me having human enemies that are 15 times stronger than the human players. I can understand when other creatures like bears or tigers or big trolls are much stronger than a player but not standard human mobs. Either the game has a good explanation for this huge discrepancy. Or the developers should imho increase the difficulty of such human mobs without giving them super hero powers. There are many other ways to do it. They could link much more mobs and the mobs could have classes like healers or cc'lers too.
Greeting
NPCs already have classes. It seems like your issue is one from a roleplaying perspective? I don't know how they can overcome that. You're basically saying that a humanoid warrior type should never be that much strong than a player? So that means no level 50 humanoid NPCs? Only "monsters"? You can't have a small bat be level 55? Instead your solution is to have more, weaker NPCs in the encounter? Explain yourself! lol
If you haven't read http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/ I highly recommend you do.
Krixus said:NPCs already have classes. It seems like your issue is one from a roleplaying perspective? I don't know how they can overcome that. You're basically saying that a humanoid warrior type should never be that much strong than a player? So that means no level 50 humanoid NPCs? Only "monsters"? You can't have a small bat be level 55? Instead your solution is to have more, weaker NPCs in the encounter? Explain yourself! lol
If you haven't read http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/ I highly recommend you do.
Yes, it is a RP perspective but also a logical one. It seems simply illogical to me having such huge discrepancies between players and comparable NPCs at the same level. And sacrificing logic and immersion for gameplay reasons is exactly what Blizzard did in World of Warcraft. They did the same thing that is described in the wolfshead article in reverse. In Eq the mobs outpowered you exponentially, in WoW you can outpower the mobs in the same way. Both seems illogical to me.
And yes, my solution would be having NPCs that are roughly equal to the players. But more NPCs, more classes/roles and a good KI. A NPC that is smart enough to cc your healers could easy wipe your group etc. So you should try to prevent this and such groups would be never doable solo and would always encourage grouping.
Greetings