CanadinaXegony said:First...translate this in your message to me? minimapsand **** ? And you don't seem to be reading what I am saying..the minimaps wasn't AT you..it was a general comment. The GPS wasn't At you..it was a general comment.
New keyboard, honeymoon period.
As for the rest, why make comments about unrelated things like minimaps and GPS if it doesn't fit the context of the post you're replying to? It just kind of convolutes things and makes the discussion hard to follow. A passerby would probably think that I was advocating for minimaps and GPS judging by the way your post was phrased.
I think you spend more time finding things to argue about than actually discussing..I realize Liav that you wish to have everything your way..but other people with other opinions do exist. Realism and immersion..from what I see means different things to different people. As far as maps..don't alt tab to get one if that's not what you wish to do..some people will. I'll be happy with what the Devs decide long as its not a carbon copy of Wow or some other game. :P
You're absolutely right. As a way to exemplify that, I'd like to point out that arguing and discussing are more similar than dissimilar and that "to argue" does not necessarily imply negativity or hostility. It has kind of taken on that meaning colloquially but yeah, I like to be correct and arguing with people is a good way to become more correct.
I do want to have everything my way, and ideally everyone would be in agreement with me. However, I acknowledge the impracticality of that and I am actually surprisingly flexible on issues and am more than willing to compromise if I see a good middleground to do so.
Believe it or not, I believe an ideal MMO wouldn't have maps at all. The problem is that it's just not practical for that to be the case, and I don't feel like having a binder on my desk, so I'd like to have some in-game maps that are very simple and feature-light. My underlying motivations are pretty simple, here. It's not like I have a grand conspiracy to complain just for the sake of complaining.
The idea of having a binder on my desk to play Pantheon is kind of vile to me, tbh.
Liav said:You're absolutely right. As a way to exemplify that, I'd like to point out that arguing and discussing are more similar than dissimilar and that "to argue" does not necessarily imply negativity or hostility. It has kind of taken on that meaning colloquially but yeah, I like to be correct and arguing with people is a good way to become more correct.
I do want to have everything my way, and ideally everyone would be in agreement with me. However, I acknowledge the impracticality of that and I am actually surprisingly flexible on issues and am more than willing to compromise if I see a good middleground to do so.
Believe it or not, I believe an ideal MMO wouldn't have maps at all. The problem is that it's just not practical for that to be the case, and I don't feel like having a binder on my desk, so I'd like to have some in-game maps that are very simple and feature-light. My underlying motivations are pretty simple, here. It's not like I have a grand conspiracy to complain just for the sake of complaining.
Well that's nice to hear...I don't intend on having maps on my desk if I can help it...but there just might be that ONE situation where you end up having to do that. As was stated elsewhere you can't prevent third party sites from offering them. And funny enough..I think that we ARE on the same page about not having maps at all. We will have a world map which gives a general idea of where one might be in the world. And I'm quite happy with that. Immersion and reality. I'm glad we're finally getting the information from one another that we are in agreement. :P *shake hands?* :)
@Op
This is meant to be a roleplaying game right? if you were roleplaying within a fantasy world would you be able to /loc (aka have GPS co-ordinates) in that world? No it's a external to roleplay command to show game co-ordinates.. so should Pantheon have /loc? No.. not in my opinion atleast. But I'm sure VR will do whatever they feel is best regardless of XYZ. :)
I also feel it'll be alot more fun that way. Maps would be required more if player made. :)
Ultimately I could care less about maps. Again, the intentions of my comments were based off immersion and as, what I feel, would be an oversight when the game actually launches if expecting an influx of players and them all being confused why there is no map.
I also continued because of the convoluted idea that a map = hand holding with no basis in reality. Even if we used P99 as an example, so many of the "hardcore" players that would consider themselves EQ professionals were using third party software that pin pointed their location on a map based off /loc or had a wiki open 24/7. But, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so if for some reason you think a map hands you out free loot and kills your raid encounters for you or somehow magically shows you the actual virtual location as if your character was present in front of it, you do you. There isn't much more worth arguing if that point is concluded.
PS, you can still play without using a map even if they are included. No one is preventing you from doing this.
I don't think maps kill the difficulty always, but they do kill the adventure and the sense you are adventuring in a dangerous world that is uncharted.
Your point about LOC is just another reason not to include it in the game. If people want to use maps at least make them use a wiki.
Travel should be an important part of the game and not just the first time through and area. Getting around should be difficult and the possability of getting lost should be real.
It doesn't matter that much to me if people use outside tools to assist them. What does it really matter in the end? My end goal isn't to get the best gear or the best raid gear. It's to go on an adventure and have some fun. Something that is missing from every MMO in the modern era. I believe people are way to focused on this mechanical experience of following a path to the most difficult content and getting the most loot. Regardless of how diffciult it might be to defeat the boss and get the loot it kills the immersion and adventure for me.
That is my opinion of course.
I could live with a large map of the world, but I'm hopeful that will be the extent of it. If people want games with maps they have just about every other MMO out there to choose from.
Folks, please use the search function if you wish to discuss maps and mini-maps as there are several topics on this already. This discussion is off-topic and will need to be brought back on topic, please. We will not have a mini-map, we will not have a normal map, we have stated that we will not have maps, period.
The discussion is about /loc(ation) and corpse summon, please only discuss those topics in this thread.
All right. Well, I vote no for /loc and yes for one or two classes to be able to summon corpses
I don't think we should be able to get our GPS coordinates in game. As others have said, people will just look up the coordinates of points of interest and then use their own coordinates to find those points of interests without exploring. I definitely don't have an issue with dire lords (and necromancers) having the ability to summon a lost corpse.
EDIT: Elaboration
Definately no on /loc or any kind of GPS tool.
Absoluetely on corpse summoning, and hopefully some corpse locating. And hopefully there will be a solid mix of classes that can do these things to make it a little less painful than it was in EQ1. I love class interdependence but tracking down one specific class would be horrible. To my thinking there should be at least 3 classes with summon and 3 with locate and loc should be nowhere in the game making use of these spells more needed and relevant.
Sorry Kilsin did stray off-topic my vote is for /loc (so I can find my corpse) and corpse summoning either by a cleric or a necromancer or perhaps even a rogue, and one more suggestion that if the corpse is summoned (as I stated previously) that the corpse and its contents appear in the owner's inventory..not warping along behind or around someone's ankles for some semblance of "reality" ;)
Ainadak said:Zorkon: Your slope is quite steep. I know you're worried that we'll end up with a find-by-numbers game, a watch the minimap game, or something worse. However, this group is actually quite mixed on this topic and is probably the best group for discussion that you're going to find. At release and past there may well be swathes of people expecting WoW and being upset at their perceived/actual inconveniences, but that time has not (and may not) come. You have clearly stated what you don't want, but haven't been quite as clear on what you do want. So I ask you, what do you want out of a navigation system? Are there any mechanics/features or group thereof that satisfies what you want?
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Very good question Ainadak, what do i want?
I read it the other day but needed to put some thought into it myself, I believe I can answer here with still honoring what Kilsin requested to get back on topic, so I'm going to try to do that.
Yes the slope I outlined was quite steep, that was simply out of laziness and thinking it would be enough to show what I was trying to imply, I understand there are many more "steps" that could be added. Like you said I've been clear what I don't want, and it's obvious I'm aware of the slippery Slope. But to me the "Slippery Slope" implies that one step and your down at the bottom of the hill. Not really a concern of mine as I'm confident Brad and team will not let that happen (there not rookies they are aware of it as well). My concern is more of a creep. a little compromise here and little compromise there and 15 years down the road we are where we are. So it's not a slope that I fear, but a creep.
Now what do I want? Corpse Summoning? Absolutely, done by some classes, not Stones or other inanimate objects, you want/need your corpse summoned, you best befriend or hire a Summoning class (necromancer for example) and I hope they maintain a need for a corpse summon, beyond simply the experience. I believe Brad stated there would be no Gear Loss, but I would like to see gear stay on the corpse for a time until you did recover it. (I think you want your gear now, get your corpse or wait a week) Corpse Summoning needs to stay relevant and NEEDED and a player service or don't even bother.
Now your question what do I want as far as a navigation system? I really don't know what I want. Most games have /loc, I use it extensively, I have a hot key that I can spam, it makes it easier to locate things, it makes it easier to get around, it makes it easier to find what I want in Allakhazam.com and read the LOC given and then go right to it as I spam my hot key and stare at my data chat window, and in turn to let other people know where I found something. I do not question or deny that it's easier and I would use it if available.
Now on that note, I was also a smoker for 25+ years, 2 packs a day every day all the way up to $6.00 US per pack (5 years smoke free now) this is the most simple way to illustrate that I don't always do what's best for me. I noticed as of late using the /loc I'm not learning the environment, I'm not looking for land marks, I'm not going out and helping my guild or party members find our camp. I'm staring at the text in the window and suggesting that lost party members do the same. Is this like handing them a cigarette and telling them "here, this will calm your nerves"
What I want.. as far as "navigation"? I know I want trees, and rocks, and paths, and buildings, etc... And I would like the Dev team to stand there Ground on what they are producing at this point. As for /loc... I'm not so sure that's what best for me. Early Everquest (1999) I knew nothing of /loc... and I can tell you every inch of Felwithe, G-fay, L-fay, Crushbone, Steamfont. and today I can't even find my way around the main zone where everybody presides (name of the zone withheld in case somebody decides I'm changing the subject) I would be fine with no LOC, Continent map sounds great.
Yea still a bit vague, but I really don't know whats good for me. (or the game)
Locate corpse and summons corpse I would like to see in game for maybe 2-3 classes for each skill. /loc I expect will be in game but I probably would only use it on rare occasions. A lot would depend on how death mechanics work out. My big use for /loc is if I'm alone and traveling/exploring and I get lost and die then I would like to use it to help retrieve my corpse. However, if leveling is not slow enough and/or death penalty is not that bad then I won't worry so much if I can't find my corpse.
I was always better at knowing zones and my way around in areas like commonlands/Karanas that were open. Wooded areas that were dark and trees everywhere, I would get lost all the time due to lack of sight distance and landmarks. Dungeons were pretty hard also pre-maps but /loc don't help much in those so that wouldn't matter and if I'm in a dungeon then I should be in a group.
I'm a bit suprised to see people claiming 'no maps' but willing to get a /loc GPS command. That makes no sense, if you get /loc, you'll get maps, you'll get database websites with locations of nearly everything in the game before the release.
If there is /loc ingame, the discussion about getting ingame maps is totally pointless cause /loc is by far more powerful than any map system you could get.
About corpse recovery, it is not a good enough justification to get /loc ingame, a skill to locate its own corpse by giving directions can be added and its far enough.
What I'd like idealy is :
I'm against restriction on actions like dragging corpse, inter-dependence is fine, but limits have to be found, and I remember in EQ that clerics were clearly fed up with constant requests for rez and many of them were going anonymous. I also remember that many people were refusing lower rez in order to get a cleric rez, let's be careful no to transform inter-dependence into some kind of curse for some classes.
Khendall said:I'm a bit suprised to see people claiming 'no maps' but willing to get a /loc GPS command. That makes no sense, if you get /loc, you'll get maps, you'll get database websites with locations of nearly everything in the game before the release.
If there is /loc ingame, the discussion about getting ingame maps is totally pointless cause /loc is by far more powerful than any map system you could get.
About corpse recovery, it is not a good enough justification to get /loc ingame, a skill to locate its own corpse by giving directions can be added and its far enough.
What I'd like idealy is :
- no /loc, I'd like people to use eyes and brain to locate themselves instead of following a GPS, VR is developping a nice world for us, let's enjoy it instead of just spaming a macro and reading coords
- no mini-map, only a compass giving direction
- a mapmaking skill that allow players to craft map items that are just blank maps with maybe some biggest points of interest. I can also imagine that to be able to craft such a map, you have to discover first the points of interest, and then to spend time at the highest point of the zone to get a clear view. This could also require components, so it could be also a money sink.
- players could be able to manually add pin's or draw zones on a map
- maps could be tradable, sold or whatever, in order to create an economy around exploration
- adding a 'corpse heading' skill that gives to the player direction to its closest corpse, maybe this skill could be shared with group if help is required
I'm against restriction on actions like dragging corpse, inter-dependence is fine, but limits have to be found, and I remember in EQ that clerics were clearly fed up with constant requests for rez and many of them were going anonymous. I also remember that many people were refusing lower rez in order to get a cleric rez, let's be careful no to transform inter-dependence into some kind of curse for some classes.
/loc effectively was the compass, but it was much more difficult to use. It's not like you zoned in to each zone at 0, 1000. In fact, zone locations were completely different from each other. -400, 2200 might be in the NW in one zone and the SE in another zone, and in another zone there wouldn't even BE a -400, 2200. You still had to LEARN what was what. I agree that they can probably find a better solution in 2017 than sense heading and /loc, but at least you had to put some thought into it as opposed to a compass telling you exactly where you were going at all times. /shrug
Hi @Krixus mirmillo, morituri te salutant :)
Maybe I have vocabulary issue, but I thought compass just gives directions so I'd say it's closer from the sense heading skill.
Its is true that the coordonnates were not consistent from one zone to the other, but when you get your current loc x1, y1, and your destination loc x2, y2, comparing x1 to x2 gives you the direction on west-east axis and comparing y1 to y2 gives you the direction on north-south axis, so basically there is no real learning phase.
So, if /loc is available ingame, your target's loc is available on a db website, and even if you never entered the zone before, you can find easily your target by spamming /loc. In that case, getting a map is not really useful, may help a bit, but it is not required.
If /loc is not available ingame, the best you can get is a description of where to find your target, you have to look for visual references in the environment to find it, use your eyes and brain, or get help from someone who knows. In that case, getting a map could help a bit to get a better view of relative positions, but there is no insurance to find what you look for, cause maps cannot be 100% reliable.
For adventure and exploration, no /loc is far better :).
Khendall said:Hi @Krixus mirmillo, morituri te salutant :)
Maybe I have vocabulary issue, but I thought compass just gives directions so I'd say it's closer from the sense heading skill.
Its is true that the coordonnates were not consistent from one zone to the other, but when you get your current loc x1, y1, and your destination loc x2, y2, comparing x1 to x2 gives you the direction on west-east axis and comparing y1 to y2 gives you the direction on north-south axis, so basically there is no real learning phase.
So, if /loc is available ingame, your target's loc is available on a db website, and even if you never entered the zone before, you can find easily your target by spamming /loc. In that case, getting a map is not really useful, may help a bit, but it is not required.
If /loc is not available ingame, the best you can get is a description of where to find your target, you have to look for visual references in the environment to find it, use your eyes and brain, or get help from someone who knows. In that case, getting a map could help a bit to get a better view of relative positions, but there is no insurance to find what you look for, cause maps cannot be 100% reliable.
For adventure and exploration, no /loc is far better :).
I do agree that /loc is a little weird, and certainly clunky to use. How as a PC in the game do I know a grid location of my "zone"? From that perspective, something like sense heading and a static in game map, either from your own cartography skill or purchased, might make more sense. I just don't want to lose that sense of wonder, of getting lost and then finding your way, and of building memories as you learn an area. Instead of a built in compass that everyone just automatically has, I'd prefer to see a tinkered/crafted compass that you'd have to buy/trade or make yourself.
@Krixus I couldn't agree more with what you just said.
Though we got the answer during the tonight stream, there will be a /loc ingame, so there will be outgame maps very quickly and so there won't be any vital need of ingame maps. No big deal, I'll use my backup computers and printer a little more ^^.
Laura said:
I have a question for those who don't like "No maps" idea, have you played EverQuest at least during Vanilla/Kunark or Velious expansions?
I'm just curious I want to see how many of those who dislike the idea of no maps are who haven't tried it before. Also, for those who actually played EQ classic and still prefer to have an in-game map; how many MMORPG have you played post 2004? (maybe because you haven't played as much new MMO you might not understand where we're coming from).
Now, No-Maps has several meaning but two are; No GPS maps (so there are maps but you don't know where you are so you can't open the map and travel by simply looking at the map) or No Maps at all except for drawn in-game map that you buy from a cartographer but there are very little details. Those maps simply give you a general idea like if you want to go to Zone X you should head North for instance.
As for GPS Maps (you can see yourself as an arrow with many details around area of interests and your objective location...etc), I believe they are out of the question (thankfully so).
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I have played EQ, EQ2 and currently playing P99 and I thought I would say that not having maps is a very bad idea. If not for an already established pool of friends playing, there is zero chance I would have stayed with the game more than 30 minutes tops without an in-game map. Mind you, I have been playing the EQ franchise for over 15 years and pretty much have things well memorized (freshest being EQ2 maps). I don't care how pretty, fancy or shiny the new chars and worlds are, no one will get me to play another MMO without having an idea where the heck you are. Printing up maps and keeping a binder on your desk while playing was cool back in 1999. In 2018, not as much. I will put up with corpse runs, I will put up with a lot in a good MMO. No maps is a non-starter for me. Even if they allowed hooks for a 3rd party to create an in-game map is totally acceptable (thinking of EQ2MAPS at eq2interface.com). This way the purists can stay pure while the rest of us don't have to kick a puppy the 5th time they get turned around in game just to get killed and can't find their corpse.
For you purists out there, pick a city that you have never been to about 1,000 miles away and go ahead and drive there. Nope, no GPS, no maps, not even a Thomas Guide (for those of you old enough to remember them... I do. They aren't fun either). Just put in your favorite casette in your 8-Track play, fill up with your leaded gasoline, and hit the road. Oh, go ahead and drive around 2 am, when nothing is open, no cars on the road, and you are on a gravel non-signed road in Iowa. Are you having fun? Is it cool, and do you feel all nostalgic? No? Yeah, I didn't think so.
I am so glad I decided to read forums before pledging $ for the game. I will keep an eye out on the forums and see if anything changes on the map realm. I was so looking forward to a new polished MMO, but no maps is where I draw the line.
Sincerely, A-P99-Mapless-Player-Who-Wishes-There-Were-Maps
Or just use the internet resources available to you and look at a user created map, which would likely be better/more detailed. Alt tabbing or having a second monitor might not have worked too great for most back in the 90s but to think a player would be completely and helplessly lost with no options in modern times is absurd. I'd imagine modern MMO players are extremely used to using the internet as a resource since they are likely already looking up quests, quest solutions, items, drop rates, crafting recipes, etc.
Iksar said:Or just use the internet resources available to you and look at a user created map, which would likely be better/more detailed. Alt tabbing or having a second monitor might not have worked too great for most back in the 90s but to think a player would be completely and helplessly lost with no options in modern times is absurd. I'd imagine modern MMO players are extremely used to using the internet as a resource since they are likely already looking up quests, quest solutions, items, drop rates, crafting recipes, etc.
You are absolutely correct, but why do I need a 3rd monitor just to hold my map while I am looking up a quest on my 2nd monitor while the game runs on the first? How about a game install system where you can opt out to having maps installed with the game? If some people don't want maps, no problem, don't install them, or use a 3rd party app or your "binder of printed maps". This way The Mapless have bragging rights in channel that they play without maps. Maybe the devs will give them a cool badge, or the surname of "The Mapless" to show how cool they are? Heck, I am all for the mapless people getting extra XP per kill since they will be needing to take frequent breaks to flip through their Trapper Keeper to figure out where they are going. Make it attractive to both the people who do and do not want maps. Give The Mapless people something they want. Give the map people maps.
And to bring the topic back on track, /loc and corpsedrag. I like .loc helps relay info about points and the such,
As for corpse drag. I't like to see a new age system where a player has to pick up a corpse and carry it over the shoulder vs magically behind like in eq1. This could limit corpse drag to str as maybe a wizard or a Bels can't do anything to help but someone with more str can carry one and maybe 2 corpses.
More options for corpse recovery to say Monk, they got 2 corpses but if they are carrying a corpse and FD, they can toss it or something closer to other people.
I like it.
I weighed in a while ago in this thread on the benefits of removing /loc from the game, but the developers shortly thereafter announced in a stream that /loc will indeed be included. However, since this thread has been dragged up again a new question has popped into my mind. What are the intended uses for /loc that improves gameplay?
From my experience /loc is used to store a location for yourself, reference an external map, or convey a location to another person. Storing locations for yourself is relatively harmless, allowing people get to their corpses or helping get back to a fun camp that they found earlier. However, referencing external grid maps and conveying locations to other people seem to have a dramatic effect on the population on the whole. It always seemed unnatural to me that a player could shout to the world and ask "where Hubert the gardener's lost key?" and 15 people can respond back that it's at exactly 142,-2000. This is even before mentioning my dislike for the minigame that comes from tracking your heading by watching a stream of number pairs in your chat log. I also see referencing external grid maps in the same way. People often use the argument that all explorers created maps, but none of those maps had the ability to say where on the map they were without consulting the lay of the land or known landmarks.
I would propose a personal /loc system. Each person is given an account-tied /loc system that varies the x-y axis angle, x-y offset, and scale factor for each zone. Each person using /loc would work identically to the way it has in the past, but no one person's /loc would be the same as any other person's /loc. The lost key will always be at 142,-2000 for you, but it might be -587,-100 for someone else. This proposition assumes that conveying locations of players and objects in the form of x-y axis numbers is not desired.
If you wish to see my original arguments on to the detrimental effects of including /loc then you can reference page 4 of this thread.