I think there absolutely should be in game maps. It makes sense lore-wise, of course these people capable of powerful magic are going to have access to a simple map. The question is exactly how much detail should they provide? Should they give you your exact location down to the foot ala GPS? Probably not. I liked how Asheron's Call did the in game map. Basically there was a world map and there was coordinates and a circle on it to give you your approximate location. Of course, Asheron's Call did not have zones and something like that would be a little more difficult in a zoned world.
Perhaps, though, there would be certain zones that wouldn't be a map, high-level, unexplored, unknown zones and the like, because according to the in game lore, nobody's ever explored those areas to map them.
Sevens said:Wrong, I have never once said anything about how it use to be...my whole premise is I want people to learn the zones, to learn the world and not just run from point a to point b on their map...........
Edit: disagree with me all you want, but that is not "rose colored glasses"
Usually when you respond, "No one" you are referencing more than just you.
Perhaps because this thread had gone from the /loc, corpse question to an argument over maps, those in favor of maps could define what they mean by map?
Do you want a general zone outline with connecting zones?
Do you want landmarks?
Do you want points of interest marked on the map?
In short, how detailed of a map is needful, and what is it that makes a map necessary in game besides "it's 2017" and "someone will make one anyway"?
I actually liked FFXI maps. General idea of locations on maps like Auction Houses and zones lines, but not really telling you where anything is. They have added some of that stuff like home point locations and the works in recent years, but I'm talking about before that. They even went as far as to not include maps on some of those maps where it didn't make sense to even have a map because of the story for the area (which I can be on board with, just not a general exclusion of maps). There was even hidden areas on some of the maps that weren't actually pointed out. Anyways though, I would say FFXI maps have to do be one of the better routes of going about giving a map just for a general purpose, without including every bit of detail for a single area. What's nice also is they allowed for players to put their own marks on the map also. So if someone wanted a specific location of an NPC to always remember, they could mark it themselves which makes sense that your character would be able to do this.
For me personally I am glad there will be no maps in game. I would like to see /loc or a compass (just the N,W,S and E) I can figure the rest from that point. I am still on the line of corpse retrival on how it should be done. I do like the idea of groups assisting on it ( .../corpse) or even a neco to do a summoning. Guess I will wait and see what comes to play.
Liav said:Amsai said:Corpse Location, Drag, and Summon, if one or all exist should be spells/abilities to help with interdependence.
Corpse Location: Enchanter, Bard
Corpse Drag: Rogue, Monk
Corpse Summon: Necro, Summoner
I personally don't like the idea of Corpse Drag, specifically, being limited to classes. The idea of having to find another player to do something so simple sounds extremely annoying.
Actually, I don't like the idea of Corpse Drag at all. If it's like EQ, it's going to look extremely cheap in a pretty game like Pantheon to have a body teleporting under a player. If it's going to be done at all it should be done well, with a full suite of animations, and that honestly sounds prohibitive to me.
As an alternative, I'd like to see players rezzed on top of the caster of the spell instead of their body. Furthermore, expanding Corpse Summon to more classes could help negate this.
Please don't limit corpse recovery tools to such an extremely limited number of classes.
I just like class uniqueness and interdependence to be as emphasized as possible.
In response to the whole map or no map thing. It wouldnt kill me if they had maps. However when it comes to these type issues, I usually like a less is more approach. It is my opinion that it would be more fun to have to figure more things out through experience and getting a feel for things than having a bunch of information. Like not having maps, or just knowing from experience how much you can nuke befoe aggro, or what max casting distance is, not knowing EXACTLY what stats do etc etc. Limited UI would of course go with this. I didnt play EQ so its not that in my case. I just like it and enjoy the meta more. But Im a complicated person. I want things more hard core in certain areas, but in others find it annoying.
I am impressed at the amount of discussion about maps has been brought about on my topic. From /loc and corpse summon to maps yeah or nah. This is a rather small topic to discuss but it appears to be on everyone's mind. I like the interest and like the replay. Keep them coming!
shasta said:I am impressed at the amount of discussion about maps has been brought about on my topic. From /loc and corpse summon to maps yeah or nah. This is a rather small topic to discuss but it appears to be on everyone's mind. I like the interest and like the replay. Keep them coming!
A lot of the people here are very passionate about trying to recreate a game they can call home for many years and hope it doesn't take the route of WoW.
Eliseus said:shasta said:I am impressed at the amount of discussion about maps has been brought about on my topic. From /loc and corpse summon to maps yeah or nah. This is a rather small topic to discuss but it appears to be on everyone's mind. I like the interest and like the replay. Keep them coming!
A lot of the people here are very passionate about trying to recreate a game they can call home for many years and hope it doesn't take the route of WoW.
wow is the worst. I have faith this game will be no where near that.
I appreciate that Rominian has tried to guide the conversation to have people expand upon what they want instead of having it be a black and white maps vs. no maps debate. However, I personally feel strongly that /loc is THE key part puzzle. When /loc is included in the game, external grid maps allow players to "find their number on the grid" to determine their exact location, which in my opinion is not appealing gameplay. I will try to illustrate the reason why /loc so heavily impacts how players find their location.
1) No map and no /loc: Players can use memory or terrain assessment with an external map.
2) No map, but /loc included: Players can use memory or number plugging with an external grid map.
3) Map without player location and no /loc: Players can use terrain assessment with the provided (or external if preferred) map.
4) Map without player location marked and /loc included: Players can use terrain assessment with the provided map or number plugging with a grid map (provided or external).
5) Map with player location marked: Player is given their location.
If you have /loc with any system, then players will make (if it's not provided) a grid map and use it. There cannot be a system that relies on terrain assessment if /loc is included in the game. From what I've seen in the responses here, a lot of the no-map group wants the terrain and visuals in the game to be a component of determining your location. If you go outside and have a map you will pay attention to your surroundings. If you go outside with your gps map, you can find your way without ever looking around you. For this reason, option 3 is my favorite by a long margin. That said, I can completely understand that players would want a different experience, but let's pick something that actually achieves our goal and avoids unnecessary complications.
If we're allowing players to determine exactly where they are in the world, why make them alt-tab or print out a book?
If we're trying to get players to notice and rely on their surroundings, then why not design towards that goal?
My opinion has honestly been changed ever so slightly and I'm more on the same page as Ainadak.
Option 3 sounds pretty great to me.
A simple topographical map included into the game interface, maybe with some major landmarks labeled (cities, outposts, etc.) and absolute exclusion of any way to numerically evaluate your position on the map would be great.
I never considered that third party maps would honestly be rendered a lot less useful without a way to evaluate your position numerically.
I could get on board with a topo map that shows major landmarks. It's basically a birds eye view of what your character could see / has seen.
If I'm understanding correctly, this would still force you to learn the area, but make it much easier to navigate once you were familiar with it by having an in-game resource. I agree the key is no player location and no /loc. Unfortunately this does create an issue for corpse retrieval which is the topic. The class interdepency with unique class skills suggestion sounds interesting.
I have no issues with /loc and corpse drags. Loc is just a means of looking around and figuring out where you are. -400, +321 is the same as "20 steps from crooked tree" or whatever. Corpsedrag was a skill itself and had it's own risks/rewards.
On the subject of maps - I'd like to see a general zone map with main roads and main attractions (villages, known landmarks, etc). To me that's reasonable. I mean, I can go to a different province and quickly figre out main roads and towns. Also the ability to add custom and shareable pins
Outside of that - fog of war is okay but I'd like to see a twist on it. Fog of war based on time in zone and not simply walking through an area. Now, it could be layered in that spending X amount of time gives more detail (terrain, smaller points of interest), but spending X+ amount of time starts to reveal potential adventures (randoms quests, etc). Just ideas.
Cartography shouldn't really be for map making, imo. Maps will be posted online quickly making cartography fairly meaningless. I'd like to see cartography used to enhance adventure. Perhaps a cartographer could make a map for an area that grants a bonus (loot drop bonus, higher chance of special mob, etc).
Ainadak said:I appreciate that Rominian has tried to guide the conversation to have people expand upon what they want instead of having it be a black and white maps vs. no maps debate. However, I personally feel strongly that /loc is THE key part puzzle. When /loc is included in the game, external grid maps allow players to "find their number on the grid" to determine their exact location, which in my opinion is not appealing gameplay. I will try to illustrate the reason why /loc so heavily impacts how players find their location.
1) No map and no /loc: Players can use memory or terrain assessment with an external map.
2) No map, but /loc included: Players can use memory or number plugging with an external grid map.
3) Map without player location and no /loc: Players can use terrain assessment with the provided (or external if preferred) map.
4) Map without player location marked and /loc included: Players can use terrain assessment with the provided map or number plugging with a grid map (provided or external).
5) Map with player location marked: Player is given their location.
If you have /loc with any system, then players will make (if it's not provided) a grid map and use it. There cannot be a system that relies on terrain assessment if /loc is included in the game. From what I've seen in the responses here, a lot of the no-map group wants the terrain and visuals in the game to be a component of determining your location. If you go outside and have a map you will pay attention to your surroundings. If you go outside with your gps map, you can find your way without ever looking around you. For this reason, option 3 is my favorite by a long margin. That said, I can completely understand that players would want a different experience, but let's pick something that actually achieves our goal and avoids unnecessary complications.
If we're allowing players to determine exactly where they are in the world, why make them alt-tab or print out a book?
If we're trying to get players to notice and rely on their surroundings, then why not design towards that goal?
Also vote for Option 3. Perfect. I have absolutely no issue with zone maps that don't show where you are on the map. I'm not sure this will happen, though, because I think they are pretty big on not providing -any- spoilers. I believe the current plan is a world map panned out quite far that roughly shows where you are in the world. I guess we'll see.
No /loc could be scary if your gear ends up staying on your corpse when you die though, I guess.
I do agree with Liav's point from a few pages ago that having a corpse warping around at a players feet is not going to look right in a new game. It's one of those things like sitting and medding during combat. The EQ players accept it because we're used to it, but to others it just looks ridiculous. I also agree that it's probably not worth the resources to animate corpse-dragging.
Shucklighter said:Ainadak said:I appreciate that Rominian has tried to guide the conversation to have people expand upon what they want instead of having it be a black and white maps vs. no maps debate. However, I personally feel strongly that /loc is THE key part puzzle. When /loc is included in the game, external grid maps allow players to "find their number on the grid" to determine their exact location, which in my opinion is not appealing gameplay. I will try to illustrate the reason why /loc so heavily impacts how players find their location.
1) No map and no /loc: Players can use memory or terrain assessment with an external map.
2) No map, but /loc included: Players can use memory or number plugging with an external grid map.
3) Map without player location and no /loc: Players can use terrain assessment with the provided (or external if preferred) map.
4) Map without player location marked and /loc included: Players can use terrain assessment with the provided map or number plugging with a grid map (provided or external).
5) Map with player location marked: Player is given their location.
If you have /loc with any system, then players will make (if it's not provided) a grid map and use it. There cannot be a system that relies on terrain assessment if /loc is included in the game. From what I've seen in the responses here, a lot of the no-map group wants the terrain and visuals in the game to be a component of determining your location. If you go outside and have a map you will pay attention to your surroundings. If you go outside with your gps map, you can find your way without ever looking around you. For this reason, option 3 is my favorite by a long margin. That said, I can completely understand that players would want a different experience, but let's pick something that actually achieves our goal and avoids unnecessary complications.
If we're allowing players to determine exactly where they are in the world, why make them alt-tab or print out a book?
If we're trying to get players to notice and rely on their surroundings, then why not design towards that goal?
Also vote for Option 3. Perfect. I have absolutely no issue with zone maps that don't show where you are on the map. I'm not sure this will happen, though, because I think they are pretty big on not providing -any- spoilers. I believe the current plan is a world map panned out quite far that roughly shows where you are in the world. I guess we'll see.
No /loc could be scary if your gear ends up staying on your corpse when you die though, I guess.
I do agree with Liav's point from a few pages ago that having a corpse warping around at a players feet is not going to look right in a new game. It's one of those things like sitting and medding during combat. The EQ players accept it because we're used to it, but to others it just looks ridiculous. I also agree that it's probably not worth the resources to animate corpse-dragging.
I too could live with option 3...but would much rather see a map mapping skill in game and having to buy (from PCs) the maps of zones you are heading to
Canno said:-400, +321 is the same as "20 steps from crooked tree" or whatever.
Not really, no. There is a world of difference.
See: Grid-based maps.
Canno said:Liav said:Canno said:-400, +321 is the same as "20 steps from crooked tree" or whatever.
Not really, no. There is a world of difference.
See: Grid-based maps.
Missed the point, it's just a way to describe where something is.
The specificity of the information and the utility of X,Y,Z coordinates over something as vague as "20 steps from a crooked tree" is so many worlds apart that it's kind of inaccurate to posit that they are comparable except on the most superficial level.
You're technically correct but it's understating things to equate them.
Shucklighter said:I do agree with Liav's point from a few pages ago that having a corpse warping around at a players feet is not going to look right in a new game. It's one of those things like sitting and medding during combat. The EQ players accept it because we're used to it, but to others it just looks ridiculous. I also agree that it's probably not worth the resources to animate corpse-dragging.
Don't know if you follow any of Conan Exile's stuff, but when you capture a thrall to take back to your camp they get dragged behind you, rope and all. It was a roughly done but it's also in the very early stages.
Also thought it would make for some fun "Capture the thrall" pvp games ;)
Liav said:Canno said:Liav said:Canno said:-400, +321 is the same as "20 steps from crooked tree" or whatever.
Not really, no. There is a world of difference.
See: Grid-based maps.
Missed the point, it's just a way to describe where something is.
The specificity of the information and the utility of X,Y,Z coordinates over something as vague as "20 steps from a crooked tree" is so many worlds apart that it's kind of inaccurate to posit that they are comparable except on the most superficial level.
You're technically correct but it's understating things to equate them.
Okay, fine.
You're in a new town and you ask how to get from where you are to the nearest gas station. I tell you, "Down the road three blocks, left, gas station is about 2 mins on your right." Or.. I say "-400, +325"
Edit: said to say
Canno said:Okay, fine.
You're in a new town and you ask how to get from where you are to the nearest gas station. I tell you, "Down the road three blocks, left, gas station is about 2 mins on your right." Or.. I say "-400, +325"
Edit: said to say
If you provide me numbers then all I can do to guide myself pay attention to is numbers. If you give landmark directions then all I can do to guide myself is pay attention to landmarks. They are functionally equivalent, but their form is vastly different.
In your example I would be examining my surroundings and asking questions about it. Does this small alleyway mark the end of a block? He didn't mention that the road switched from paved to gravel... am I going the wrong way? Did I miss something? Extending that out to the fantasy setting just involves more fun terms like turning left at the spire with ever-burning torches.
Also, when using numbers your possibility for error is fairly controlled. No matter what distance you are, you always know which direction to go. Perhaps you were run off the road by a wandering giant and you didn't want to get smashed into the mud? If you are navigating based on directions, this could be a recipe for disaster. If you're navigating by numbers there's no sweat off your brow.
Right. The hyper accuracy of hard numbers can't be understated. There is no room for interpretation when someone gives you an X,Y coordinate. You can misstype the number but that's about the extent of it.
You also can't make an extremely accurate map based on non-coordinate directions.
I also think the your idea could be a good solution Ainadak, great post. I also would not mind a map that showed the zone topographically, where you can find yourself according to landmarks. No little pointer to tell you what direction you are pointing, etc, that would be up to you. In a way, your suggestion points out /loc to be a convenience, which many people are against. Great thoughts.