Amsai said:I could get on board with a generic map that shows basic overland layout but with no grids, coordinates, player position or markers. Shows the basic features, and maybe major cities. Would definately want fog of war. Purchasing, making, or questing are all fine, but still would say fog of war as well. So even if you had the map until you discover it personally then its fogged. A basic compass would be ok. No maps for dungeons, temples, ruins, crypts, etc. Having certiain classes with tracking skills could work if done carefully. Maybe something subtle with like a 6th sense sort of deal.
Amsai senses a place of danger to the North.
Amsai senses a place of safety to the East.
Amsai senses someone extremely dangerous to the South.
Amsai senses someone someone Friendly to the West.
Or maybe just part of the whole perception system thing?
Wow I forgot that's how tracking worked in EQ. A big list popped up depending on how much skill you had in tracking. AFter you selected a mob it would give you a message like the ones you just posted. I always liked the tracking system in EQ.
Eliseus said:CanadinaXegony said:
Tatertoad said:Eliseus said:Some of you thinking not having an in game map in 2017 will give you the same experience that you had in 1999 is going to be disappointed.
I still know what it feels like to be lost. In real life, it's overrated. In a game, it can be fun. Sort of like fighting orcs. Very overrated IRL.
Yup I got lost many times..sometimes I died, sometimes I didn't. I got very aware of where I was as a newbie..over time. It was part of the experience. I can deal with a world map..still like the cartography skill idea, the idea of having to ask directions from guildies/friends, is something I would do. As for alt tabbing..if you have a printer you just print the map off from the exterior sites, I had a binder with my favorite areas in colour..in that book. I guess we're talking about some immersion here, and some seem to wish that they can just rush through the world with no impediments..no effort. Still an interesting conversation..are we having fun yet? :)
You do know what immersion is right? Immersion in this type of game and on subject involves maps.
LOL!! Nope. Having my hand held is not immersion...at least for me. Learning my surroundings by exploring and REMEMBERING or making a couple notes..is immersion. Being totally involved in my game and my game world, using my brain..think out strategies to stay alive, is immersion. If I "really need" a map all that badly...I can simply print it off one of the numerous sites that will pop up after launch. That is immersion for ME. :) And the Devs DID say there will be a world map...just so you know approximately where you are.
Eliseus said:Imagine someone telling you to walk both ways up hill in snow and somehow portraying that as fun. Now try doing that without a map. Crazy stacked on crazy.
You called?
I am ok with out of game map, 3rd party mapping guide like we have had in the past.
If they add a map of the approx zone? i would like the EQ one.
Crazzie said:Eliseus said:Imagine someone telling you to walk both ways up hill in snow and somehow portraying that as fun. Now try doing that without a map. Crazy stacked on crazy.
You called?
I am ok with out of game map, 3rd party mapping guide like we have had in the past.
If they add a map of the approx zone? i would like the EQ one.
I actually think the aforementioned snow example is fun myself. Just like killing and going on a dangerous adventure in a fantasy world is fun, but it's not in real life. I would like to do something in game that I wouldn't do in real life. Something that is exciting. That's just me though.
CanadinaXegony said:Eliseus said:CanadinaXegony said:
Tatertoad said:Eliseus said:Some of you thinking not having an in game map in 2017 will give you the same experience that you had in 1999 is going to be disappointed.
I still know what it feels like to be lost. In real life, it's overrated. In a game, it can be fun. Sort of like fighting orcs. Very overrated IRL.
Yup I got lost many times..sometimes I died, sometimes I didn't. I got very aware of where I was as a newbie..over time. It was part of the experience. I can deal with a world map..still like the cartography skill idea, the idea of having to ask directions from guildies/friends, is something I would do. As for alt tabbing..if you have a printer you just print the map off from the exterior sites, I had a binder with my favorite areas in colour..in that book. I guess we're talking about some immersion here, and some seem to wish that they can just rush through the world with no impediments..no effort. Still an interesting conversation..are we having fun yet? :)
You do know what immersion is right? Immersion in this type of game and on subject involves maps.
LOL!! Nope. Having my hand held is not immersion...at least for me. Learning my surroundings by exploring and REMEMBERING or making a couple notes..is immersion. Being totally involved in my game and my game world, using my brain..think out strategies to stay alive, is immersion. If I "really need" a map all that badly...I can simply print it off one of the numerous sites that will pop up after launch. That is immersion for ME. :) And the Devs DID say there will be a world map...just so you know approximately where you are.
Okay, so you don't know what immersion is and apparently don't know what hand holding is.
Eliseus said:Okay, so you don't know what immersion is and apparently don't know what hand holding is.
I think that's somewhat subjective. What's immersive for him, might not be for you. And he did highlight the word 'me'. I don't think that means he doesn't know what immersion is, just that it's not the same as yours.
Personally I can relate. I remember pulling offline maps out in EQ1 and yeah in a way it made ME the player feel like I was part of my character and what he was doing. I was him and I was referring to my map to get my bearings. I can very easily see how this pulls you into the game as a real life person, which really is the very definition of immersion. It was difficult after all to do anything in game while referring to an out of game map. It made me feel like I was stopping to look at the map and make sure I was going the right way. Something that doesn't quite feel the same when I just pop up an in game map and don't even watch where I am going, I just follow the dot and make sure the dot is moving the right way in game. That TO ME, doesn't feel nearly as immersive as holding an actual piece of paper in my hand and having to stop all movement for a minute while i get my bearings.
Mornroc said:Eliseus said:Okay, so you don't know what immersion is and apparently don't know what hand holding is.
I think that's somewhat subjective. What's immersive for him, might not be for you. And he did highlight the word 'me'. I don't think that means he doesn't know what immersion is, just that it's not the same as yours.
Personally I can relate. I remember pulling offline maps out in EQ1 and yeah in a way it made ME the player feel like I was part of my character and what he was doing. I was him and I was referring to my map to get my bearings. I can very easily see how this pulls you into the game as a real life person, which really is the very definition of immersion. It was difficult after all to do anything in game while referring to an out of game map. It made me feel like I was stopping to look at the map and make sure I was going the right way. Something that doesn't quite feel the same when I just pop up an in game map and don't even watch where I am going, I just follow the dot and make sure the dot is moving the right way in game. That TO ME, doesn't feel nearly as immersive as holding an actual piece of paper in my hand and having to stop all movement for a minute while i get my bearings.
You could also learn to navigate without a map which can be frustrating at first, but fun once you make a mental map in your head. The learning process itself can be quite exciting and immersive as you don't know what you are going to encounter next. It's even better without any map at all. Then you don't know if you are going in x direction you will eventually get to Freeport. You will just find new places on the fly. I would imagine it would be similar to what people from ancient civilizations experienced when they encountered a new land and wrote down the wonderous things that they saw.
Mornroc said:Eliseus said:Okay, so you don't know what immersion is and apparently don't know what hand holding is.
I think that's somewhat subjective. What's immersive for him, might not be for you. And he did highlight the word 'me'. I don't think that means he doesn't know what immersion is, just that it's not the same as yours.
Personally I can relate. I remember pulling offline maps out in EQ1 and yeah in a way it made ME the player feel like I was part of my character and what he was doing. I was him and I was referring to my map to get my bearings. I can very easily see how this pulls you into the game as a real life person, which really is the very definition of immersion. It was difficult after all to do anything in game while referring to an out of game map. It made me feel like I was stopping to look at the map and make sure I was going the right way. Something that doesn't quite feel the same when I just pop up an in game map and don't even watch where I am going, I just follow the dot and make sure the dot is moving the right way in game. That TO ME, doesn't feel nearly as immersive as holding an actual piece of paper in my hand and having to stop all movement for a minute while i get my bearings.
You're talking specifically about a map that displays your current location. A map does not have to display your location, therefore this is not really a criticism of the concept of in-game maps as a whole, only a very specific implementation of them.
Holding a map in your hand irl does it for you. That's... interesting to say the least. I think it's an unreasonable expectation for players to do so, else putting themselves at an extreme gameplay disadvantage.
If I wanted to hold a paper in my hand to play a game I'd play DnD, not an MMO.
About 80% of the replies here are people talking past eachother because they reject a specific implementation of maps and use it to justify the exclusion of maps as a whole. Let's stay on point.
Amsai said:Another thing I thought about was as long as you can have maps it would be nice to mark it yourself or make notes on it. It still wouldnt reveal exact locations but it could be personalized. I would say if you do this though that it render it unsellable.
They had a form of maps like that in Saga of Ryzom (a French game from France..released in 2004) where you could transfer the maps you made from one character to an alt on your account, think you could even "give" it to someone new to the game.
Liav said:CanadinaXegony said:Liav said:Immersion and looking at a piece of paper outsie of the game are about the two most mutually exclusive concepts I've ever heard of.
Print it off then you have it. :)
I have no idea what you mean by this.
You go to one of the sites you frequent for maps..and you print a copy of it. I've done this. Don't have to keep alt tabbing. Take a copy. And then if you wish to keep it to refer to it..stick it in a binder..
UnknownQuantity said:You could also learn to navigate without a map which can be frustrating at first, but fun once you make a mental map in your head. The learning process itself can be quite exciting and immersive as you don't know what you are going to encounter next. It's even better without any map at all. Then you don't know if you are going in x direction you will eventually get to Freeport. You will just find new places on the fly. I would imagine it would be similar to what people from ancient civilizations experienced when they encountered a new land and wrote down the wonderous things that they saw.
Suggesting making a mental map in your head is well and good for small areas, but this is not a task that many find approachable. I can make a mental map of my house or a building, but making a mental map of a sprawling zone with twists and turns would take me forever.
In your example of ancient explorers, they would find those new lands and immediately start trying to make maps. Unless you're talking about cavemen, in which case they stay in caves and don't need maps. What you are talking about is a first time around mystery of exploration, which can be satisfied by a fog of war type system. Some have even suggested (and I love the idea) that the fog of war shouldn't be an instant reveal of the region you've found, but take a decent bit of time/movement to reveal the area.
You know, what might best allow the general population to live out your ideal gaming experience? Providing maps in game with a fog of war system or similar mechanic. If people are provided with in game maps, then they will be much less likely to seek them out externally. I believe that type of mechanic would give the best chance that an average player would be able (and willing) to explore new lands in the way you described.
@ Eliseus - "One powerful gaming experience is immersion, which has been mentioned by gamers [2], designers [3], and game researchers [4] alike as an important experience of interaction. Research on gaming has examined the assumption of a strong relationship between immersion and gameplay experience, such that immersion is intertwined with gameplay experience—either by conceptual overlap or through a strong, positive, and linear relationship. Consequently, studies have been conducted on the antecedents of immersion in an attempt to more fully understand how to influence consumers of games (i.e., gamers) so that they experience both immersion and subsequent gameplay experience. Studies have found that immersion is related to the realism of the game world [5] as well as environmental and contextual sounds [6]. Immersion is also said to have depth [2]. Thus, the experience of immersion—which can be benefitted or harmed by game characteristics—has been deemed critical to game enjoyment. "
My own comment been gaming since 1995..and I played a lot of the older games, the newer games (Korean and otherwise) I do think I have the gist of "immersion." :P
Ainadak said:You know, what might best allow the general population to live out your ideal gaming experience? Providing maps in game with a fog of war system or similar mechanic. If people are provided with in game maps, then they will be much less likely to seek them out externally. I believe that type of mechanic would give the best chance that an average player would be able (and willing) to explore new lands in the way you described.
Probably quite true. The fogged in-game map would have most people trying to run around to uncover the map rather than looking up a cleared map out of game. If you have no maps, a lot of people are just going to look them up and use them right away.
EDIT: I think one issue I have with 'Fog of War' is that I attach it to GPS. I suppose there's no reason a fogged map would have to show your current location, though.
CanadinaXegony said:Liav said:CanadinaXegony said:Liav said:Immersion and looking at a piece of paper outsie of the game are about the two most mutually exclusive concepts I've ever heard of.
Print it off then you have it. :)
I have no idea what you mean by this.
You go to one of the sites you frequent for maps..and you print a copy of it. I've done this. Don't have to keep alt tabbing. Take a copy. And then if you wish to keep it to refer to it..stick it in a binder..
I think you're confused. The comment you originally replied to was referring to a printed piece of paper.
@ Liav and I am saying instead of continuously alt tabbing to refer to that map/area you are looking for...get a copy, (print) stick it in the binder...solution to problem. That would be a printed piece of paper yes...and save you the action of alt tabbing for THAT task. And it is realism of a sort. Don't people use maps when driving somewhere new? Or nowadays where they have a little robotic voice (GPS) that thinks for them and tells them what street to turn down. These are tools. Or we could go the other way and just have maps, compasses, minimaps..and then everyone will be happy they don't have to make the effort to learn about their surroundings. Same for point and click on a map and teleporting to that spot. That what we want? I don't think that's the aim of the VR team. :)
CanadinaXegony said:
@ Eliseus - "One powerful gaming experience is immersion, which has been mentioned by gamers [2], designers [3], and game researchers [4] alike as an important experience of interaction. Research on gaming has examined the assumption of a strong relationship between immersion and gameplay experience, such that immersion is intertwined with gameplay experience—either by conceptual overlap or through a strong, positive, and linear relationship. Consequently, studies have been conducted on the antecedents of immersion in an attempt to more fully understand how to influence consumers of games (i.e., gamers) so that they experience both immersion and subsequent gameplay experience. Studies have found that immersion is related to the realism of the game world [5] as well as environmental and contextual sounds [6]. Immersion is also said to have depth [2]. Thus, the experience of immersion—which can be benefitted or harmed by game characteristics—has been deemed critical to game enjoyment. "
My own comment been gaming since 1995..and I played a lot of the older games, the newer games (Korean and otherwise) I do think I have the gist of "immersion." :P
Bolded what YOU quoted that completely contradicts your view on maps.
Eliseus said:CanadinaXegony said:
@ Eliseus - "One powerful gaming experience is immersion, which has been mentioned by gamers [2], designers [3], and game researchers [4] alike as an important experience of interaction. Research on gaming has examined the assumption of a strong relationship between immersion and gameplay experience, such that immersion is intertwined with gameplay experience—either by conceptual overlap or through a strong, positive, and linear relationship. Consequently, studies have been conducted on the antecedents of immersion in an attempt to more fully understand how to influence consumers of games (i.e., gamers) so that they experience both immersion and subsequent gameplay experience. Studies have found that immersion is related to the realism of the game world [5] as well as environmental and contextual sounds [6]. Immersion is also said to have depth [2]. Thus, the experience of immersion—which can be benefitted or harmed by game characteristics—has been deemed critical to game enjoyment. "
My own comment been gaming since 1995..and I played a lot of the older games, the newer games (Korean and otherwise) I do think I have the gist of "immersion." :P
Bolded what YOU quoted that completely contradicts your view on maps.
It doesn't contradict..it enhances my belief that realism is part of immersion...having to get to know your surroundings and think is part of immersion..therefore maps that tell you every little thing..aren't really realistic...leave something to the imagination..leave something to explore for...learn your way around. BUT if you really have to ..talk to people, ask questions..or go download that map of that special area that you can't seem to find on your own. As a last resort.
CanadinaXegony said:@ Liav and I am saying instead of continuously alt tabbing to refer to that map/area you are looking for...get a copy, (print) stick it in the binder...solution to problem. That would be a printed piece of paper yes...and save you the action of alt tabbing for THAT task. And it is realism of a sort. Don't people use maps when driving somewhere new? Or nowadays where they have a little robotic voice (GPS) that thinks for them and tells them what street to turn down. These are tools. Or we could go the other way and just have maps, compasses, minimaps..and then everyone will be happy they don't have to make the effort to learn about their surroundings. Same for point and click on a map and teleporting to that spot. That what we want? I don't think that's the aim of the VR team. :)
It very clearly wouldn't make everyone happy, certainly not myself considering that it's not something I've advocated for. Why are you bringing up minimaps in response to me? I have no idea why you're bringing up real life GPS, either.
I am for a specific, basic implementation of a map to prevent what I consider absurdities, such as using a binder full of maps to play a video game.
The novely of that wore off some time in the very early 2000s.
First...translate this in your message to me? minimapsand **** ? And you don't seem to be reading what I am saying..the minimaps wasn't AT you..it was a general comment. The GPS wasn't At you..it was a general comment.
CanadinaXegony said:It doesn't contradict..it enhances my belief that realism is part of immersion...having to get to know your surroundings and think is part of immersion..therefore maps that tell you every little thing..aren't really realistic...leave something to the imagination..leave something to explore for...learn your way around. BUT if you really have to ..talk to people, ask questions..or go download that map of that special area that you can't seem to find on your own. As a last resort.
If you would keep up with the thread for a fraction of a second you'd see that neither me nor Eliseus are advocating for "maps that tell you every little thing".
Why are we even having this discussion if we're talking to eachother's evil twins we're prescribing these things to?
This is an exercise in frustration. Maybe it's time to stop posting in this thread, as well.