Martell said:Additionally I don't know why you guys are patting eachother on the back for features like:
1. No minimap
2. No voiceacting
3. No questlog
4. No "conveniences"
This is 2016 - the SECOND someone makes a minimap/questhelper plugin for your game - I will have it installed. I will never understand why anyone would DESIRE a more unpleasant gaming experience.
I am an eagle scout and actually taught many young men how to utilize orienteering, BUT I will happily use GPS the rest of my life if possible.
They weren't patting each other on the back about no voice acting. They actually said that there would be some, but it's way too expensive to do heavy voice acting.
As to the other stuff, yes the community largely wants a game where we don't have a built in GPS. It enhances the exploration aspect. I don't know how you eagle scouted as a kid, but around my way we didn't use interactive maps or other technology which made adventuring easy.
What they have said is that is a MODERN realization of old-school MMO values.
Look, in reality there are only really 3 different "old-school" things that people want (in order of importance):
1. CAN'T SOLO - biggest one, group game... yadda yadda
2. Death is punishing.
3 Levelling takes time.
Other than that - everything else is "fringe" -usually desired by folks that actually derive a feeling of self-worth from a video game.
Martell said:What they have said is that is a MODERN realization of old-school MMO values.
Look, in reality there are only really 3 different "old-school" things that people want (in order of importance):
1. CAN'T SOLO - biggest one, group game... yadda yadda
2. Death is punishing.
3 Levelling takes time.
Other than that - everything else is "fringe" -usually desired by folks that actually derive a feeling of self-worth from a video game.
Pretty sure enduring punishing deaths and leveling that takes time would appeal to those deriving self-worth from a video game as much as everything else.
I mean, if that was actually a legitimate argument and not completely ridiculous.
Dullahan said:Martell said:What they have said is that is a MODERN realization of old-school MMO values.
Look, in reality there are only really 3 different "old-school" things that people want (in order of importance):
1. CAN'T SOLO - biggest one, group game... yadda yadda
2. Death is punishing.
3 Levelling takes time.
Other than that - everything else is "fringe" -usually desired by folks that actually derive a feeling of self-worth from a video game.
Pretty sure enduring punishing deaths and leveling that takes time would appeal to those deriving self-worth from a video game as much as everything else.
I mean, if that was actually a legitimate argument and not completely ridiculous.
Its not really an argument at all - more like throwing a firecracker into a room of cats.
I think people looking forward to this game are, generally, tired of the insane amount of hand-holding that is in modern MMOs. Adventuring and successfully completing tasks when it is difficult is something that I miss and look forward to. EQ1 is, to this point, my favorite game I've played and there is a reason for that.
Martell said:This is 2016 - the SECOND someone makes a minimap/questhelper plugin for your game - I will have it installed. I will never understand why anyone would DESIRE a more unpleasant gaming experience.
The lack of a minimap actually helps me enjoy the game. It helps me to feel more like a real player running through the vastness of the game world, which can be immensely satisfying. High-utility maps that rotate with you and have objective markers are tools that sound good in theory and are useful for finding your way quickly and easily, but, at least for me, result in the game feeling like less of a "world" and more "game-y". The objective in these MMOs is a bit different, I think, than other games - immersion and interaction are just as significant factors as completing the quest or killing the mob or getting the gear, as far as I can tell.
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to an in-game ability to sketch maps - something as simple as a paint program would be enough, open to any character. Perhaps particularly well-drawn maps could be copied and sold and become in-game "standards", though no player should be forced by any means to buy and use one. Since we know verticality will be significant in dungeons, perhaps "cartographers" could stack multiple "pages" on top of each other to represent different levels. Players could get creative with that, I'm confident. But I'd prefer nothing more than that - certainly not a self-rotating automap that functions like a Star Trek gadget.
Martell said:However, I do hold a deep disdain for people who assign any sort of self worth to video game accomplishment. In my opininion, they are the weak who need to be culled from the herd.
For me, it is not about self-worth but about entertainment. In-game accomplishments that are challenging and take time are just more entertaining. Easy tasks are just plain boring, imo.
Here is my view as someone who started MMOs in 1999 with EQ, and has played damn near every one of them since. I hate MUCH of what has happened in the online gaming community and with what "people" want from MMOs in general these days, although some aspects make sense. I am currently playing EQ classic on P99 and am throughly enjoying myself AGAIN. In fact, I highly recommend EVERYONE do it, INCLUDING the developers so they can get a refresher in the things that made EQ special and unique...time alters memories a lot. I find that I actually ENJOY having to grind up weapon skills, and even things like Sense Heading. Yeah they can be trivialized once done, but they added flavor and realism to the game. I still felt EC was more "alive" as a place than almost any other zone in any other MMO since...and that was as of 6 days ago. I am craving an MMO with challenge, and socializing, and decent community behavior. No more easy mode BS, no more level 50 in 3 days, or even 3 months. No more "use group finder to get dungeon group, port over to it, run through at breakneck speed, don't speak a SINGLE word, finish boss, disband, port out. Meaningful crafting with full fleshed out crafting exp and crafting levels to match adventuring levels, crafting skills, gear, quests, factions, rare and faction recipes, and viable, desirable items without a flood of dropped/quested gear everywhere. I see a LOT of promise so far in what I am hearing and seeing from Pantheon...although talk is cheap.
As for the 4 things mentioned above, my personal feeling are thus:
1. No minimap - Yeah, I could use one in EQ at times, but personally I like not having it. Although, I WOULD like a map based on a mapping skill. The more new and uncharted a zone is, the more your Mapping and Location skill goes up, and as it does, you create your OWN mini map with increasing levels of accuracy, details, markers, coordinates and special POI on it. So, you can access a map button, but it only gives you YOUR map and what you have found in a zone, and maybe as you get more skilled, it adds the /LOC coordinates, and more detailed info about places you have found on the map, etc. Let's be honest, making it so i just have to alt tab to get a map online is stupid, but just handing me a completed one is also stupid. What adventurer would not make their own maps? And, would not those maps get better and better as you got better at the associated skills of map making, like charting your coordinates in the world, drawing more accurate maps to scale, learning more about an area and integrating it into your map, etc? Do it. You have become better at Mapping (101)!.
2. No voiceacting - This adds nothing for me honestly and is a big expense. This is an MMO, and one that is hoping to harken back to a better (at least for most of us) era in MMOs. You want voice acting? Go play Mass Effect. No harm in it...I did and loved it. Just no place really for it in this game given the budget and what little value it would add.
3. No questlog - I agree here. I WANT a quest log. Again, like #1...there is no point to making me hand write notes on a piece of paper on my desk or go online to just look up the basics of a quest. What adventurer would not keep notes on jobs and quests? Give me a log that copies the basics from any quest giver when I have found the quest. I don't want some modern "fill a log with quests, get the automatic map coordinates from it and a automatic directional pointer to the exact quest location and it auto checks off the moment i kill the thing it wants" kind of thing, but I would like a sheet that has the basics like "Gudous Goldbrick in Kaladim mentioned he would reward me for bringing him the heads of the Stinkyhead troll brothers. He said I should look for them in the Ocean of Stink." Notes make the game easier in a good way and make sense frankly.
4. No "conveniences" - Well, I want SOME conveniences as mentioned, but many of us want to go back to a world with a lot less of them. You know why? Because in a TRUE, REAL magical fantasy world where an adventurer would start out from a city as a cloth wearing bag of nothing and aspire to grow strong, learn the mysteries of the world, gain untold riches and powers, slaughter the greatest beasts and loot the most magical treasures...things would be inconvenient! There would not necessarily be magical satellite based GPS, and mysterious ? or ! over people's heads who had work for them, and the world would not mystically be completely safe in your city of birth and get linearly more dangerous as you walk away from it. A real world like a fantasy MMO world would have griffins a few feet from your door, would have danger lurking in every corner, would require you to bring food and water to rest and recover in the wilnderness, would require you to go somewhere before you could know exactly how to get there, etc etc etc.
I HATE not having a map. I hated it in EQ. I was so glad when they added them.
However, if you must make it some kind of "immersiveness" argument - how often do you go on a trip out of state without a map - electronic or otherwise? Who in their right mind would take a long journey WITHOUT looking at a f**king map?
Unless the world in which we inhabit has yet to invent paper - maps should be available to look at.
Martell said:Unless the world in which we inhabit has yet to invent paper - maps should be available to look at.
Well considering paper was invented here around 100BC...was the entire world mapped out with maps for everyone to look at for everywhere they could go instantly? 100 years later? 1000? Nope. Your argument is nonsense frankly, and even moreso in the context of a fantasy MMO game.
Martell said:Who in their right mind would take a long journey WITHOUT looking at a f**king map?
I don't know? Most every explorer ever? Which is what many people want to be in these fantasy worlds.
No offense intended, but frankly, you don't seem to be the kind of person who would thrive and enjoy playing an MMO. You just sound angry and disdainful of people who play MMOs and/or want to play differently than you. The bottom line is that THIS MMO is ostensibly going to be made to suit a particular type of player and play style that has largely gone by the wayside in modern MMOs, and you don't sound like it is your type of playstyle or design.
They actually said they would have something of a quest log in what they call a player tome.
On their own, the importance may seem small but collectively, all of these little things add to the challenge and feel that you're really in another world and not just looking through your monitor while playing a game. The less interaction with dialogs, doodads, and other client elements to remind you, the better in my opinion.
Pantheon: The Struggle is Real.
Sigh - the first known maps date back to 16000 B.C. The primary focus of cave paintings, hieroglyphics - etc. have been MAPS. It is an integral portion of advancing civilization.
Jesus even BEES ******* draw maps to eachother in scent and dance - and they are insects.
So cartography and maps have completely missed this aggregate of 8 seperate civilizations with intricate trade and political relations? Got it.
Martell said:Sigh - the first known maps date back to 16000 B.C. The primary focus of cave paintings, hieroglyphics - etc. have been MAPS. It is an integral portion of advancing civilization.
Jesus even BEES ******* draw maps to eachother in scent and dance - and they are insects.
So cartography and maps have completely missed this aggregate of 8 seperate civilizations with intricate trade and political relations? Got it.
I think you are missing the fact that no map you are talking about had a gaint you are here sign at all times, i dont mind the idea of maps (i liked the system from ffxi for example) but i would rather have the chance to get lost from time to time without perma gps.
kelenin said:Have they actually stated no quest log? I mean the perception system is supposed to be an effective replacement for quests, and there is a keeper log. So how is there not a quest log? I may be missing some information but this is how I understood it.
Nope, never said that, in fact a rough version of the quest log/journal is already in-game.
Martell said:Who in their right mind would take a long journey WITHOUT looking at a f**king map?
I don't know? Most every explorer ever? Which is what many people want to be in these fantasy worlds.
Are you really that uninformed? The Maps Colombus used.
Akailo said:Martell said:Sigh - the first known maps date back to 16000 B.C. The primary focus of cave paintings, hieroglyphics - etc. have been MAPS. It is an integral portion of advancing civilization.
Jesus even BEES ******* draw maps to eachother in scent and dance - and they are insects.
So cartography and maps have completely missed this aggregate of 8 seperate civilizations with intricate trade and political relations? Got it.
I think you are missing the fact that no map you are talking about had a gaint you are here sign at all times, i dont mind the idea of maps (i liked the system from ffxi for example) but i would rather have the chance to get lost from time to time without perma gps.
Right!?! While I'd be fine with some type of map, where is the fun in a map that tells you everything/shows you everything. Even though it can be a pain at times, I'd have way more fun trying to run around finding the cave entrance than a magic path of smoke showing me the exact path to take. That's just my 2cents
@Martell
Depending on your job, and having to learn territory, a GPS can be a hinderance. I instruct people not to use a GPS when learning a new location (yes real life - in 2016). A map is fair game, but someone who overly relies on a GPS will never learn an area like one who is paying attention to their surroundings. A game world is no different. It's really not much different than being a passenger in a vehicle, talking, and having no idea how you got to the location you're at.
With that said, we've had plenty of discussions of playermade maps here that are right clickable - just the majority don't want a GPS map/mini-map. So, I don't think anyone is screaming for ultra inconvenience, just we argue aganist mechanics that trivialize the game world.
Absolutely loving the details and highlights that you guys took, great job!
Quick clarification:
Only Windows is guaranteed for release, if there is enough interest we will look at Mac and Linux but it is not set in stone for either.
We have a quest log already in-game on the dev client.
We have an Atlas, not a map, for an overall world view but not a local view, players can make their own maps and upload them online if they like. :)
I say we need an in-game map! You can put it in Thronefast as a mural on a wall...