There should just be another way to incentivize alt creation. By all means, keep a progeny system in place for those who want their characters to have children or whatever, but don't make it the only means to create an alt with a bonus.
The current ideas for a progeny system force a certain narrative and background for characters players create (even the concept of a magical inheritance forces a particular background and narrative), and I don't think that's a great idea in a type of game where players like being able to instill a plethora of backgrounds and personalities and stories to the characters they create, both mains and alts. It limits creativity and imagination.
I like my alts to be unknown to my main, to be unrelated. To have their own histories and stories.
Retiring characters just doesn't sit right with me, and no matter how it's spun, if there's going to be a bonus that's noticeable, people will feel a pressure to attain that bonus.
Let's find another way to incentivize alt creation, and let's aim for something that instills an account wide bonus to all characters on that account, including the main.
It's still not perfect (regarding those who just don't want to create alts), but it would be a step in the right direction.
I still love the idea from when I played text muds. Remorting. Instead of retiring the character you would first reach max level and then have to show your ability and knowledge via a quest called a Hero quest. This may involve slaying a creature or a number of creatures that show you know what you are doing with your class. Ater you are able to pass the test, you choose a previously unavailable race and go from 1 to max again with that race. The race typically had some desirable traits that would also fit in with the next and final remort where you pass another more difficult test and choose a previously unavaible class.
The race i was able to choose was a Shadow and the class was Assassin. This may never materialise in any modern game but it was a fun way to get a stronger character and gave ample reasons to play the game longer.
I am not sure if any other muds besides Phoenix Mud had this feature but they likely did.
Syntro said:Yarnila said:What if the character is temporarily "retired" ? Meaning it becomes maybe an NPC in your Guild Hall or House or an NPC of the City or a NPC for starting out with maybe a little tip to help new players along or maybe becomes a "rent a char for beginners"
I think Yarnila might have hit upon a really interesting potential mechanic here. Rather than look solely at the benefit of the progeny, what about the progenitor? Immortalizing a character within the game by making him/her an interactable NPC and potentially weaving him/her into the Lore would be really neat, and might be the fair and balanced benefit we've been searching for. Imagine you retire your Druid and he/she becomes a very difficult to find, roaming NPC that, when found, can be tell you a story about his/her past and act as a rare spell vendor.
What if the next chapter of the Pantheon story unfolds when a certain amount of warriors have retired their earthly (terminusly?) adventure and joined the ranks of some celestial army?
In a way, the retirement system could be used to drive the story of Pantheon and dynamically populate Terminus with extremely unique and interesting NPCs. It could be a fun metric for the dev team to play with when planning out lore driven expansions.
I hope I didn't already post this, but Age of Wushu had a really cool offline system that would be comparable to what you're suggesting. In Age of Wushu, when you logged out your character would appear in the world, walking about the city, usually working in some shop or temple. It was really cool to be on an alt and see your main stroll by in the city.
I think they could make use of something like this. You could just have a few dozen or so npcs reserved for retired characters. They might be in a tavern. Maybe walking around the town. Perhaps training newbies in the arena. Then every each day they could rotate new characters in. Could be a really cool dynamic.
Dullahan said:I hope I didn't already post this, but Age of Wushu had a really cool offline system that would be comparable to what you're suggesting. In Age of Wushu, when you logged out your character would appear in the world, walking about the city, usually working in some shop or temple. It was really cool to be on an alt and see your main stroll by in the city.
I think they could make use of something like this. You could just have a few dozen or so npcs reserved for retired characters. They might be in a tavern. Maybe walking around the town. Perhaps training newbies in the arena. Then every each day they could rotate new characters in. Could be a really cool dynamic.
I actually think this is a really cool dynamic that could be implemented separate from a progeny system all-together, particularly if I could set the areas where I wanted my offline character(s) to hang out in. For example, hanging out in the tavern listening to a bard and having drinks or in a training ground honing skills.
I cant help but think that as this conversation keeps going the whole Progeny thing is just trying its best to do something in a different way that another game already perfected. And Brad did ask for how this could work or not work and any alternatives to it.
FFXIs job class system(from here on known as the Alt Class System) is the answer to several problems with Progeny, and still acomplishes what Brad wants it to do.
Goals:
1. Reward vets - In this case the reward is an exponential amount of progression so that you can sink even more dedication into your character. The more time you put into it the more pride in your accomplishments and of course the more you enrich your character.
2. Replayability - With being able to play different classes on the same character this would not be an issue.
3. Encouraging players to revisit lower level areas in a meaningful way to help newer players and fight against an upside down aging leveling population pyramid.
Just some extra notes:
This would not mean that people still couldnt make normal alts for RP or Aesthetic or Min/Max purposes.
It fits with reputation because no matter what class people will still know you. Whether you are Amsai the Rogue or Amsai the Bard.
Potentially less confusing than actual alts and keeping up with "Whos alt is that again"?
Totally in line with the theme of horizontal progression. Instead of power creep or locking out content or weak feeling cosmetic rewards from Progeny. You get real power and prestige in breadth.
A system like this is not the same as multiclass or subclass system. Think of it more as an alt class system instead of an alt character system.
Each class starts at level 1. Just because your Wizard is level 50 doesnt mean the Guardian you just earned access to is level 50. Nope, level 1. Its up to you to level new classes just like normal.
There is no bleed-over from other classes so no need to worry about power creep or bluring the lines between classes.
Instead of logging out and into an alt character, you go to a major city or maybe an outpost to change classes so you cant just change on the fly, you must go preparred.
Helps grouping - You may not be having luck finding a group on your level 30 Wizard, but that level 15 group could use your Dire Lord.
All your achievements tied to one character (this could be both good and bad).
Potentially increasing gameplay by years. I found players in FFXI were more motivated to create alt classes than they were alt characters, because you are constantly reinvesting in your main.
Problems:
1. Faction and Lore - There could be problems with factions or lore from certain classes that would be strange if a character was an opposing class as well.
Solution: Possibly limit some classes that dont "play well together"?
2. RPers, Min/Maxers, Tired of the same look?
Solution: Still got normal Alts.
3. Breaking your immersion. How can one character be a master as so many different classes?
Solution 1: Again possibly limit it to a certain number of Alt classes (3, 5, 10?).
Solution 2: Get over it? Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and Immersion shouldnt trump all else. Immersion is the only thing I cant really argue against. But with all the other things this system does right especially compared to how potentially convoluted and forced Progeny seems to be, I think we can let this one slide.
Last few things. I'm putting this forward because I just think its a cleaner solution that makes much more sense, not because I greatly desire it. Im no altaholic that is for sure. But my experience from FFXI tells me this system really works and people that liked alts really loved the fact that you could have the same type of feelings of alts but tied to one character from more investment. The power of main and alts combined. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask them. Im sure I missed something. And I hope not to step on too many toes.
It would be so immersive if reincarnation/retirement was tied to the faction level of your deity. Remember when Drizzt saw Mielikki's Unicorn? I'd love it if there was a series of faction quests (available at various levels) that had to be completed to gain the favor of my deity, before I could do a reincarnation/retirement... Here is my fantasy... You can reincarnate/retire with each deity one time. After you've reincarnated/retired with every deity, another series of quests allow you to become a new, unique, race that has a special racial. (ie: a small Ent, a brownie, a goblin) There is a catch though. The catch is you go back to the base stats of a starter character and loose all of the stat increases of the previous reincarnations/retirements. That new character can start the process of reincarnation/retirement all over if he/she wanted to. (ie:one reincarnation/retirement with each diety). Make it so there were new race options that opened up each time you went through the process. It would also placate people's fears about reincarnation/retirement becoming a mechanism that would create gods among insects.
Here are my responses to people's concerns with the reincarnation/retirement system:
The issue of balance- An avatar that has been raiding for months, or years, is not the same as a character who just attained level cap. If someone reincarnates/retires their character, this represents a significant time investment (for a few additional base stats). In games like this, time played/progression = power of character. On Vallon Zek, I pvp'd with a ranger that was close to maxing her AA points and had excellent raid gear. She was excedingly powerful. Even though we were both level cap, she was much farther in the progression than I was. She stomped my face in the dirt and it was unpleasant, but it wasn't imbalanced. Character progresion is more than levels, it is also AA points, and quality of gear, and it could include the amount of times reincarnated. Being in a raid guild, and everything that goes with it, doesn't have to be the only way to progress your character at level cap. Reincarnation/retirement gives you another option. (Also, the fantasy I described above would limit the maximum your base stats could be increased by reincarnations/retirements.)
Restarting my character is "punishing" - Reincarnation/Retirement is not the only way to progress at level cap. Isn't it more... "punishing"... to only have one option (ie:raiding) for progression at level cap?
The issue of loosing a high level character - There needs to be a cost involved in a process that allows a character to have increased base stats. On a fundamental level, the game has to reward effort, sacrifice, and achievement. It is a reasonable expectation that your reincarnated/offspring character could have the same name as before, and he/she could even look the same. This isn't something you have to do for your progression. This just opens up another avenue of progression once you reach level cap though.
Trade skills - Does a character loose all of his/her tradeskills on a reincarnation/retirement? It is probably better if tradeskills did not use base stats for calculations, and just preserve the trade skills through a reincarnation/retirement.
What are some things that I like about it? -
1. If I realize later on that I messed up on some of the early choices I made for my character (ie: diety, stats), then the avatar is not ruined. The time I have invested into that character can be salvaged by taking the avatar to level cap and reincarnating/retiring. This also opens up the possibility of removing the respec button (making your choices carry some weight again).
2. In other MMO's, I see the gear I'm using during the leveling process as disposable, no matter how epic it is. That gear is only useful for a while, so it's kind of like a plastic silverware. End game gear is different though because I'm going to use that gear for quite a while. This is why I burn through the levels to get to the end game. Low level epic gear that I acquired while leveling, is still valuable if I'm going to reincarnate/retire. I'll spend my time to get that set of low level epic gear, and save it, if I can use it over and over. If the game will have a focus on the journey, then the gear acquired on that journey should be valuable, like raid gear is.
3. This breaks up the social stratification that occurs in other MMO's. Veterans will be playing with newer members of the community. As the game ages, how are newcomers supposed to level in a game that requires group play?
4. This changes the communitity's behavior of racing to level cap. If a major focus of the game is on the journey, then allowing us to continue with our avatar's progression via that journey makes sense. If the only progression after level cap is raiding, then people will stay at level cap to progress. Is raiding the only path where our avatars can progress at level cap?
I think I prefer the idea of reincarnation to that of having progeny. It has a few distinct advantages:
-- Coming back as any race/class is perfectly consistent with the idea of reincarnation. Whereas, from a lore perspective, progeny could be restrictive (you probably wouldn't be able to roll a Dire Lord if you're the progeny of an elf).
-- It retains the ability to 'pass down' knowledge of skills from your previous character. Instead of 'learning from a parent' you'd be 'rediscovering knowledge from a past life.'
-- Besides, with a name like 'Rise of the Fallen,' The concept of coming back as a reincarnation seems to fit right in. ;-)
This could even be done without losing your main. If there were a few shrines dedicated to the purpose of bringing back former lives (maybe one at each of the 3 sanctums), a character could travel there and perform some ritual to come back as one of their previous incarnations.
As far as potential incentives for using a system like this, here's an idea:
Open up one ability slot on a reincarnated character so that it could be used for any skill learned in any of his/her previous incarnations. Some care would be needed. If some abilities are so class defining or powerful (thinking things like class iconic abilities here) then they should be exempt from this. And of course abilities would need to have appropriate restrictions--a cleric that couldn't wield piercing weapons obviously wouldn't have access to a backstab ability from their previous rogue. Since it's only one slot that's being opened up like this, no one would be able to turn one archetype into another, but the added flexibility in ability specs would make for a very strong incentive for people to work their way through multiple classes and gain their skills. Also, since we're limited to just the 10 skills anyway, a reincarnated character would be a little more flexible than someone who hasn't reincarnated, but not necessarily more powerful.
edit: Apparently this has been suggested before: NoobieDoo had a similar suggestion in the Off-Topic Discussion: Fun With Progeny
Any system which rewards a person for deleting or harming their character is inherently flawed. It also makes no sense. I didn't retire when my daughter was born. In fact, much the opposite, my work is now MORE important than it was before she existed.
I'm not trying to be overly negative, but this whole progeny discussion is really leaving a bad taste.
Having a simple system such as "your alts receive an x% experience bonus for every max level player you have" or "newly created alts have the option of inheriting y% of their parents faction" are perfectly fine and actually make sense. Of course you should level up faster when you have a parent who has been through all those things and can guide you, or of course it is natural that you are going to inherit the good and bad social standing that follows your family name. These things make sense and aren't game breaking.
Needing to kill or retire off a character simply because another character exists is absurd. Nothing about that fits in with how any world operates.
Also, giving noticeable power increase to a progency character itself doesn't make sense. Yes, my daughter will no doubt be better than me at some things when she fully matures (I would hope in all things, but that's not realistic), but realistically speaking she will be inferior to me in certain things as well. So if simply being a progeny is going to make you stronger at A, then you should be weaker at B to be realistic and balancing.
I still believe the whole progeny thing is a disaster waiting to happen, is a "feature" I have NEVER heard anyone asking for in an MMO going all the way back to EQ, and makes no sense other than the aforementioned obvious minor bonuses like experience or faction gain.
I’m hoping that most of the community will find this to be satisfactory and something they could see themselves utilizing at some point. That being said, there is no pleasing everyone. Remember, nobody is being forced to utilize this system, or any system like it. It has been stated that it will not be game-breaking in the bonuses offered. And all the people who utilize the system are bolstering very important components / core principles of the game. Also, they are removing themselves from bottle-necked end game zones, taking themselves out of contention for high level items, and using their time to play lower level content that doesn’t provide the monetary / loot / harvesting advantages seen at higher levels, nor are they spending that time raising a craft as others might. So there are many inherent sacrifices people would be making to utilize this system. Because of this, there should be a reward for this work. Please, consider the system for all of its merits and not simply what benefits you the most.
So… here we go!
First, here are the core principles upon which the Progeny system is meant to be based, as provided to us by Kilsin:
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.
I am very much on board with all of these and have tried to stay true to them in the proposed idea.
Another thing that I feel is important to mention: Please be patient and do not be too quick to judge. Very little of this idea is based on facts presented by the devs. It has been said that the best criticisms will come with actually testing the progeny system in game. No need to kick and scream yet. :P Constructive discussion, however, is welcome!
“We have stated that we will scrap it if it doesn't work well, but for it to have a chance, we need to get more work done on it and then let people actually test it out first hand, because so far the discussion is based on assumptions and opinions on something with such little information at hand and that is just absurd.
We really need to relax and give a few topics like this a chance before casting such negative assumptions over them or trying to troubleshoot problems that don't yet exist. Let us get the Progeny system to a working state so we can implement everything we have in mind for it and then when it is time to test it (along with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that work in sync with the Progeny system) you folks can then give us your feedback, we will be open to discussing it more at that time, but for now, people assuming and basing opinions on such little information on this topic is pointless.
Speculation and discussion is fine but the moment this system gets negative feedback from the community before you folks can even get to try it out, the thread will be closed.”
- Kilsin
People’s main concerns:
- People having to level “throwaway characters”
- Loss of items/gear, faction grinds, accomplishments because of having to retire main
- Characters remorting or being retired for progeny, thus affecting raiding/progression guilds
- Bond with main character (no desire to “retire”)
- Desire to focus on one character (no alts)
- Feeling “forced” to partake in progeny
The above, and the underlying principles that are the driving force behind the Progeny system, are the main considerations for the proposed idea.
Goals:
Below is a list of goals achieved that may make the progeny system more available and desirable to the majority of players.
- Nothing that has been achieved on the main character is lost. Armor, epics, faction, quests, etc…
- Players will not feel forced to partake in the Progeny system but are incentivized to do so because it benefits the economy, the community, and the game. The players who utilize this system are making inherent sacrifices in terms of loot / harvesting / crafting / coin and more.
- Allow new class/race combinations. (Possibility of hybrid races is on the table and may be considered later down the line, as stated by Kilsin in response to a question from 1AD7.)
- Allow players to level up a progeny character without first having to lose/retire their main character. This allows players to continue raiding, grouping with friends, progressing as normal.
Progeny Idea:
Names:
Because names are important for reputation purposes, there should be some sort of marker to associate a progeny with the parent character. However, it must be taken into consideration that we do not want to restrict players from creating progeny who are the opposite gender of the parent. This, of course, means that many who choose to create a progeny of a different gender will wish to choose a different, more appropriate name for the progeny.
My proposal would be to make last names unique and progeny MUST take the parent character’s last name. This will be the main identifying marker. For players who are friends or relatives in real life and wish to share the same in-game last name, perhaps allow a method of petition and permissions to allow this on a case-by-case basis. Additionally, characters on an account may share the last name of other characters on that account without being attached to one another via the progeny system.
Additionally, players will have an indicator as to the generation (II, III, IV, etc…). This could be displayed on the character’s nameplate, or appears upon /inspect.
The naming convention is something that is debatable and doesn’t really affect the function of the proposed system. However, I do think it is something worth extra consideration, largely because of reputation/recognition. As far as generation indicators, I think those are important as well, as it displays the effort that has gone into a character (and people can’t straight-up lie about their generation).
Race/Class:
Upon creating your progeny character, you are allowed to choose any race that is allowed for that class OR any race for which the parent character has maxed faction, which allows for abnormal race/class combinations.
Progeny characters must be the same class as the parent character. The reasons for this are numerous and will likely become apparent as you continue to read. Ideally, players could play a different class if they wanted to, but it makes many things much more complicated. The simplest solution is if you want to make a character of a different class, make an alt.
Parent and Progeny are tied together:
The main driving force for keeping a progeny/parent tied together is that it allows to focus on a single character while also giving them the opportunity to re-experience the lower level tiers of content on a level appropriate character. If, for example, you completed a bunch of quests or raised an obscure faction, those things would persist through the progeny. You would also get to keep and utilize your hard-earned gear (most significantly, any no-drop gear from raids, quests, etc…). You could continue building on the horizontal progression of the same character without having to do it at max level. In a nutshell, it removes the "end-game" mentality. There is an entire world to enjoy, but in most games—once you get to cap—the only way to appreciate the lower level content is when you situationally mentor other players. This allows you to go on your own journey without having to rely on the availability of another player.
As mentioned above, your gear and everything you worked on for your main character remains relevant and useful to your progeny. Because they are the same class, it is as if your progeny is a continuation of your main character rather than an entirely new character (or “alt”).
When your progeny hits max level, the parent character is retired. People who do not like the thought of this may simply choose to keep the same name, race, and gender. Voila, you’re playing the same character, at which point it can be considered more of a “remort” than progeny. However, people who are fine with or prefer a new name / race / gender are not restricted to simply a “remort”.
Note: One problem I foresee with “shared” characters is people could potentially collect items for a high level quest on the parent then turn in those items with the progeny character for huge XP. This would need a reasonable solution. Quest XP caps based on level, for example? Or level requirements for quests?
So how does this work? The toggle:
A parent character and the progeny character are tied together. This means that at the character screen you would only see the parent or the progeny character (whichever one was toggled on when you last logged off). You log into the character that is seen on your character selection screen. If you wish to continue playing that character (let’s say it’s the parent), then you go about your business. If you want to play the progeny, you must go to a town and find the tavern where there is a toggle NPC. Using this NPC, you may toggle from parent to progeny, or progeny to parent.
All your gear, inventory, and bank space is shared. Your progeny being the same class as your main, there is no need to do any gear swapping. The only thing that would need to be switched is hotbars. However, the remedy to this is simply to have the hotbars switch automatically when you toggle from one character to the other so that the process is simple and painless.
Also, because you can toggle, you can continue to do things on the parent character while leveling up your progeny character. You do not have to miss out on groups / raids!
Faction:
Your progeny and your parent share faction. Being the same class, I don’t foresee this being a problem. All the faction grinds and such you did on your parent character are matched by your progeny. Everything you do on your parent character affects your progeny character, and vice versa.
Bonuses:
Bonuses are up in the air. Basically, it’s whatever VR decides is appropriate. It shouldn’t be game-breaking, nor should it be something so great that people feel “forced” to partake in the system even if they don’t want to. However, it needs to be significant enough that many people will choose (at some point or another) to utilize the system because it does create palpable benefits/advantages. For the sake of replayability/recycling content, and all the points mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I feel like the system should be very incentivized as it could do wonderful things for the game.
So, here we are. Would love to hear your thoughts!
One a scale of 0 – 10, 0 being “A completely different system, please,” and 10 being “I love it!” where would you place yourself?
If this system could be changed to better fit your preference, what specifically would you change?
I am loving what Im reading. The idea is really taking my imagination over. At this point i give it a 9.5. I really REALLY want to make a gnome monk, or Ogre wizard. The acheivement in walking around with nothing more then a class/race combo that you cant start as but work towards is enough of a reward for me. It takes the RPG out of MMO and gives it a real home. Not just Lore, or Quest lines, but personalization that cant be done simply by changing looks/gear. Love it. One question I have right now is, will there be a mentor type system as VG had, and if so will that not also help keep all zones vialbe? Either way the ability to create a class/race combo that could take months to work on is enough without any other of the perks.
Put me at a 0 here as I don't think this addresses much (if any) of the listed key points by VR, it's also simultaneously more limiting than it should be but also with no real "loss" or sacrifice for whatever possible gains the system might have. As is, it seems very much like a pipe dream for raiders & progression focused players who don't like having alts/prefer a single character and to play a single class that also don't want to have to give up much of anything for whatever the potential benefits of they progeny system might have.
A toggle doesn't help to alleviate a server becoming top heavy in time or help reduce competition/congestion for high level dungeon/raid content (this proposed idea even touts that as a bonus). It also doesn't help keep lower/mid level zones populated or new players find their feet with level appropriate players in any meaningful way that isn't different than someone having alts in addition to their main. Same goes for fine tuning dungeons and group availability. It doesn't help stimulate the crafting/harvesting spheres with supply/demand or keep the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through all level ranges when you literally keep your max level character and you are the same class meaning you can just keep all the same gear and don't need to participate near as much in the player driven economy (especially when you can just toggle over to max level to farm anything you might need for most of the leveling process of the "progeny").
But hey, it could help with balance but that's a very vague point from VR and honestly more players doing anything probably helps with balance...but its something I suppose.
Under this I don't see anything the player trades for whatever bonus(es) brought by progeny. They don't have to give up a character (literally just merge with their "main" at max level so saying they retire a character is disingenuous), they don't have to even give up raiding or doing high level content or farming ability, they don't have to give up their items, they don't even have to lose work they've done building factions. But the player is also confined to play the same class all over again (when they feel like toggling over that is) so I guess loss of options/freedom is something.
Anyway, I think Celandor has the right of it and we all need to chill out on this and see what VR has planned instead of running in circles hoping to tilt things in our own directions.
Celandor said:I know a lot of thought went into your proposal, Kaen, but I think we should wait and see what the team at VR come up with. They obviously have something specific in mind and I'm not sure what we gain as a community by starting another theory crafting thread on the subject.
Drayian said:I am loving what Im reading. The idea is really taking my imagination over. At this point i give it a 9.5. I really REALLY want to make a gnome monk, or Ogre wizard. The acheivement in walking around with nothing more then a class/race combo that you cant start as but work towards is enough of a reward for me. It takes the RPG out of MMO and gives it a real home. Not just Lore, or Quest lines, but personalization that cant be done simply by changing looks/gear. Love it. One question I have right now is, will there be a mentor type system as VG had, and if so will that not also help keep all zones vialbe? Either way the ability to create a class/race combo that could take months to work on is enough without any other of the perks.
Iksar said:Put me at a 0 here as I don't think this addresses much (if any) of the listed key points by VR, it's also simultaneously more limiting than it should be but also with no real "loss" or sacrifice for whatever possible gains the system might have. As is, it seems very much like a pipe dream for raiders & progression focused players who don't like having alts/prefer a single character and to play a single class that also don't want to have to give up much of anything for whatever the potential benefits of they progeny system might have.
A toggle doesn't help to alleviate a server becoming top heavy in time or help reduce competition/congestion for high level dungeon/raid content (this proposed idea even touts that as a bonus). It also doesn't help keep lower/mid level zones populated or new players find their feet with level appropriate players in any meaningful way that isn't different than someone having alts in addition to their main. Same goes for fine tuning dungeons and group availability. It doesn't help stimulate the crafting/harvesting spheres with supply/demand or keep the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through all level ranges when you literally keep your max level character and you are the same class meaning you can just keep all the same gear and don't need to participate near as much in the player driven economy (especially when you can just toggle over to max level to farm anything you might need for most of the leveling process of the "progeny").
But hey, it could help with balance but that's a very vague point from VR and honestly more players doing anything probably helps with balance...but its something I suppose.
Under this I don't see anything the player trades for whatever bonus(es) brought by progeny. They don't have to give up a character (literally just merge with their "main" at max level so saying they retire a character is disingenuous), they don't have to even give up raiding or doing high level content or farming ability, they don't have to give up their items, they don't even have to lose work they've done building factions. But the player is also confined to play the same class all over again (when they feel like toggling over that is) so I guess loss of options/freedom is something.
Anyway, I think Celandor has the right of it and we all need to chill out on this and see what VR has planned instead of running in circles hoping to tilt things in our own directions.
Celandor said:I know a lot of thought went into your proposal, Kaen, but I think we should wait and see what the team at VR come up with. They obviously have something specific in mind and I'm not sure what we gain as a community by starting another theory crafting thread on the subject.
I really hope they just bag it. It shouldn't have been announced as a feature. It's a set up for failure. If they back out, they have egg on their faces, but unfortunately what is more likely is that they'll throw good money after bad.
My personal favorite version would include dual specialization. You start off as a monk. You pick specialization at 25 (Body or Soul) -- You level to max. You have the option to create a progeny (toggle) -- at 25 on the progeny, you can pick the other specialization. Once progeny gets to 50, parent/progeny are merged and you have a single "master monk" that can rotate both body & soul out of combat. (2 full leveling cycles for 1 fully leveled character is a significant "cost" in my eyes.) That would be a 10/10 in my book. Any iteration that requires retirement as a prerequisite is an instant 0/10. Just about every MMO I have ever played has a viable alt system. I would love to see progeny be something that expands the "alt experience" to those who enjoy focusing on nothing but their main. That's the reason why I think this feature would hit on every note that Kaen mentioned ... you're taking a decent portion of the community who otherwise wouldn't spend time on alts and encouraging them to relevel. Anybody who already enjoys playing alts can continue to do so, and progeny could be used to add even more replay value to them as well.
That said, Amsai's proposal that was listed further up the page would also be completely viable. In that model, I would definitely be more open to rolling alt (classes) instead of alt (characters). Sharing the horizontal progression between each character (or class in that model) is the main sticky point. I don't want to have to grind faction and work on every quest or access key on each character I play. Usually when I'm doing that on another character it means I'm bored and ran out of stuff to do on my main. Progeny could be a proactive feature that would thwart boredom for ... pretty much forever, for me, whereas playing an alt feels more like a reactive bandaid that won't truly help me. If Vanguard had the model that was described by Kaen or Amsai, I wouldn't have stopped playing when I did. I would have realized that I could still enjoy plenty of meaningful content on my main without trivializing it. If a new raid zone was surprise patched a week after I started, no big deal ... I still have my parent. I like Brad's idea on page 1 ... let me sacrifice items, please, and thank you!
oneADseven said:My personal favorite version would include dual specialization. You start off as a monk. You pick specialization at 25 (Body or Soul) -- You level to max. You have the option to create a progeny (toggle) -- at 25 on the progeny, you can pick the other specialization. Once progeny gets to 50, parent/progeny are merged and you have a single "master monk" that can rotate both body & soul out of combat. (2 full leveling cycles for 1 fully leveled character is a significant "cost" in my eyes.) That would be a 10/10 in my book. Any iteration that requires retirement as a prerequisite is an instant 0/10. Just about every MMO I have ever played has a viable alt system. I would love to see progeny be something that expands the "alt experience" to those who enjoy focusing on nothing but their main. That's the reason why I think this feature would hit on every note that Kaen mentioned ... you're taking a decent portion of the community who otherwise wouldn't spend time on alts and encouraging them to relevel. Anybody who already enjoys playing alts can continue to do so, and progeny could be used to add even more replay value to them as well.
To what end? This is just a denial of inflation. Make a game that doesn't need this. You have to level to max, start over, level allll the way up, and THEN you get the class you could have just started with in the first place? And every single other person who has not done this elaborate, ridiculous, time expensive thing is horribly less than. This is unsound. It's also quite deterimetal to alting.
Kaen said:
I'll likely be happy with whatever VR comes out with. I dearly hope, anyway. I think the basic concept is awesome. But will I ever delete my main with his/her raid gear, epics, faction, etc... No frickin' way. For some minor perks on a fresh alt? Nooo frickin' way. Not unless I level up a throwaway character... but that's lame.
They've mentioned that if there is enough resistance, the entire concept could be scrapped. I do NOT want that because I think the concept is awesome. I love playing alts. I especially love twinking. I wouldn't mind playing a different class as a progeny, too. That's one of the shortcomings of the above system. I just couldn't figure out a solid, logical way to incorporate a different class as the progeny. It made things very complicated. I would love to hear any proposals to fix this. I'm also not attached to a "toggle". I'd also be fine with locking out the main until the progeny is maxed. The issue there is you'll have a lot of angry people. :)
As far as power, wanting to be overpowered and such? I'd probably utilize this system if the only bonuses were titles (Lord, Lady, Duke, Duchess, etc...) or a new class/race combo.
Well, that is one option. Have it so when you agree to start a progeny character (of whatever race AND class you'd like that is allowed; this is your kid and they don't always/often follow their parents path) that the previous main/maxed character get's put on ice and you are blocked from using it at all. The progeny is a completely new character in all respects (faction, quests/perception, bank space, etc) save for whatever the mechanics benefits allow/items passed on. Once the progeny reaches max level they can undergo an epic quest (probably involving a money and/or hefty item sink) that ultimately results in the resurrection of their parent, unlocking that character to be played again. Upon second progeny both maxed characters would become locked and when that progeny reaches max level perhaps there is a shorter quest/sacrificial fee that unlocks the two frozen characters etc.
I'm fairly sure that even without (or with very minor) combat bonuses associated with the system that fewer people than you'd think would opt to not use the system even with locking their max level character. Especially if VR allows players to roll otherwise unavailable race/class combinations allowing players to be more unique/exotic. A lot of people go nuts for cosmetics (and spend tons of money on lootboxes etc) these days in an effort to express themselves and be a little unique/different and I am pretty sure most of the desire of those that want different specializations within classes (this one I don't like) is to be a little more unique as well. So having the option to be an exotic race/class pairing alone would probably get a fair number of players salivating.
The main resistance I see to this seems to come from the more competitive power gamers/raiders that loathe the idea they would have to put off or take a break from raiding to participate...but I feel it's okay if they don't end up using this. Those players have raiding, pushing server/world firsts, and generally enjoy the benefits of being on the cutting edge of all content. Some portion of the other 90% of players can have progeny instead; those that aren't super social or have family commitments/lack the time for raiding, can't find a guild they resonate with, or that just want to start a new adventure.
I think one major point is being missed by most, No one has to do this if they don not wish to. I remember EQ and just leveling a toon was enough, gear/loot was nice but in the begining before it got raid/end game heavy there was nothing i enjoyed more then just grinding XP with a group of friends pushing our limits on dungeon crawls. I am hoping this game brings back the joy and pride of leveling. Most games now days the leveling up ride is very quick and only done to get to raiding/end game. Like I stated before, the fact Id have to put in months of work just to be able to make a clas/race combo that can not be created from the start, would be enough for me. Alts are great, but itsjust another toon like everyone else. But allow me to have something that shows more so then just a Tittle, like walking around with a Gnome Monk would be awesome, and no one that hates the idea or thinks its lame has to participate. Its a freedom of RPG that allows us to delve into our chars one step further.
So put it in as a perk with making alts, dont give me any special stats, gear etc. just allow me to run around with a class/race combo that shows true work into my role playing and call it done. Id be totally fine with that. No need to get crazy and lock one char out or retire it. Just give me one step further into making an alt. Dont think into this to much, in EQ id use the same Sur name on my alts and it gave me a little piece of the RP, and i liked it. Just let this be one small step further into such a system. Lets make this game about friends, family and not loot.
Witha mentor system I do feel they will address the issue of over crowded end game zones, other then those who want to push for the best gear; I will certianly be doing some of this, but I will also love to do a dungeon crawl of say a lvl 20ish area while mentored down either helping friends or meeting and making new ones.
Kaen,
In my opinion all idea are worth discussing and even imperfect implementation ideas can have gems mixed in, that’s the point of iterative design. Second I have been trying not to think about Progeny too much myself personally simply due to the fact that we have not really heard from VR on their version. Realistically Progeny could likely be held off until the 1st expansion and no one would really notice as everything will still be so new so the need to retire a character will be low over that time period.
All that being said I feel like your proposal matches really what a good mentor system should embody. For a raider to roll their character back to a low level and swap out low level gear or have their gear scaled to a generic level is similar to having a new character with old gear scaled to their current level.
I could see the mentor system feeding into the Progeny system, something like the xp earned and the skills gained can be applied to a Progeny character or is a way to earn the right to use the Progeny system. I could also see the mentor system as a way to help duplicate non combat achievements from the parent to the Progeny.
Those of us who have played DDO have experienced firsthand what the wipe your character and start over from level 1 progeny system would feel like. Due to how TP points were earned there was a significant gain for reincarnating and recompleting everything on the highest difficulty in addition to the past life feats and static bonuses. A similar level of gain would be required to incentivize a character sacrifice progeny system.
I could see the Progeny system broken into two paths. One path is the high gain, high cost character sacrifice method which really is a main character living a second life with a lot of achievements and perception retained. The second path to the Progeny system would be founding a house. The main character is the head of a semi noble house. Other characters both on the same account and other accounts can be invited into the house and it would function similar to a guild but independent and secondary to the guild system.
The house founder and his/her Progeny are the main family line and gain a set of benefits, which could be tied into the housing system, and those invited into the house but not part of the main family would have a lesser bonus. When a lesser member of a household completes the achievement unlocking Progeny they can either apply to become a member of the main family or start their own new household.
While the idea of making a household and progeny based on a male and female character and their progeny are a mix of the two I feel it is too gender normal and restrictive. Like it or not this is 2018 and gender identity is not a given and it is not worth offending or alienating anyone over for a game system that is supposed to be fun much less the concept of mixing species which technically probably isn’t even possible. To that end I would not tie progeny race choices or invites to a household to a characters race.
In closing I think you have a lot of good points and seeing where they fit into the mechanics of the world of Terminus will take time. Many of the concerns you posted were also the concerns that drove me to trying to develop the logarithmic power curve system. It has its own weaknesses and is a significant departure from what former EQ players are expecting and is arguably a very vague theoretical model.
Keep your thinking cap on,
Trasak
I really hope it doesn't get abandoned as it has potential to be a really cool feature and not upset things too much. I think it has great potential in the arenas of 'coolness' and maybe just added convenience for those who've already 'done it all' where it doesn't make much difference.
Aspects: -
Faction
If there are new class-race combos allowed by it (which would have a major cool factor) there might be some faction complications which could be restrictive or a benefit *shrug*.
It might be interesting to 'pass on' faction in some way: "Good day, Half-Ogre! I knew your father, so I shall forgo the usual kill-on-site rule, but don't expect to get an audience with the King!"
Stat boosts
Not so keen. Anything but small boosts would end up being must-have and/or imbalancing and small boosts would be pointless and boring.
Twinking
If twinking were limited, perhaps only progeny could do it with certain 'handed down' items?
Even if it's not limited, perhaps progeny could enherit some items that are ordinarily soul bound or NO DROP or whatever?
Perhaps they could get access just to the cosmetic look of the hand-me-downs until they are level appropriate?
Crafting
Maybe progeny would be the only way to have multiple crafts? The progeny would have access to component creation level in their parent's craft + unlimited in their own craft, or if they choose the same craft get better chance at making high quality items?
Retiring/Dying
Whilst I think, depending on the benefits, it would be ok to require retirement or death of the parent (Don't like it? Don't do it!), it might be nice to be able to keep the parent around for crafting or to run a family house (with guild-like benefits) or even allow 'outings' for the odd raid? Some sort of limited time/area access?
One thought came to mind, too... Assuming there will be expansions where there is new high-level content and a new max level, perhaps you should be able to bring a character 'out of retirement' as long as you park the progeny until they reach max level again?...
Yeah there's lots of potential pitfalls to avoid, but overall there is just so much potential for a great system!
Iksar said:Well, that is one option. Have it so when you agree to start a progeny character (of whatever race AND class you'd like that is allowed; this is your kid and they don't always/often follow their parents path) that the previous main/maxed character get's put on ice and you are blocked from using it at all. The progeny is a completely new character in all respects (faction, quests/perception, bank space, etc) save for whatever the mechanics benefits allow/items passed on. Once the progeny reaches max level they can undergo an epic quest (probably involving a money and/or hefty item sink) that ultimately results in the resurrection of their parent, unlocking that character to be played again. Upon second progeny both maxed characters would become locked and when that progeny reaches max level perhaps there is a shorter quest/sacrificial fee that unlocks the two frozen characters etc.
I'm fairly sure that even without (or with very minor) combat bonuses associated with the system that fewer people than you'd think would opt to not use the system even with locking their max level character. Especially if VR allows players to roll otherwise unavailable race/class combinations allowing players to be more unique/exotic. A lot of people go nuts for cosmetics (and spend tons of money on lootboxes etc) these days in an effort to express themselves and be a little unique/different and I am pretty sure most of the desire of those that want different specializations within classes (this one I don't like) is to be a little more unique as well. So having the option to be an exotic race/class pairing alone would probably get a fair number of players salivating.
The main resistance I see to this seems to come from the more competitive power gamers/raiders that loathe the idea they would have to put off or take a break from raiding to participate...but I feel it's okay if they don't end up using this. Those players have raiding, pushing server/world firsts, and generally enjoy the benefits of being on the cutting edge of all content. Some portion of the other 90% of players can have progeny instead; those that aren't super social or have family commitments/lack the time for raiding, can't find a guild they resonate with, or that just want to start a new adventure.
Trasak said:All that being said I feel like your proposal matches really what a good mentor system should embody. For a raider to roll their character back to a low level and swap out low level gear or have their gear scaled to a generic level is similar to having a new character with old gear scaled to their current level.
I could see the mentor system feeding into the Progeny system, something like the xp earned and the skills gained can be applied to a Progeny character or is a way to earn the right to use the Progeny system. I could also see the mentor system as a way to help duplicate non combat achievements from the parent to the Progeny.
Kaen said:This is something I would totally be on board with. Not so sure about locking both / all maxed characters for the second / third progeny, but meh. If that were the difference between this happening or not happening, I'd be perfectly happy with it.
Yeah, I wasn't sure what to do for subsequent progeny. Maybe after the first time around they could unlock the maxed out characters at level 25 and the third (assuming there is a 3rd stacking bonus) they might not lock at all. Or could be that after the first time through progeny you'd just have to sacrifice items/money and they'd unlock.